Bharat Rakshak

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 04:22 
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Forgive me, but I couldn't find any specific thread on UAVs, drones, and other remotely operated technology platforms, whether for surveillance purposes, direct combat, or otherwise. I felt this topic should have its own thread, as this is a capability that India sees merit in and is seeking to grow. For a country like India, good intelligence capability is a necessity.

Here's one article, perhaps frivolous, about a remote helicopter drone that can be used to rescue people at high mountain altitudes:

http://www.newscientisttech.com/article ... news_rss20


It's obviously for more than the traditional role of recon/surveillance, but perhaps it could have use on our high mountain frontiers, which we do patrol. Could it have turned the tide in Kargil? Probably not, except maybe if used to attack certain inaccessibly high strategic vantage points.

There's no reason why air power, when used correctly, can't be used to neutralize geographic high ground.


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 16:10 
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Indian UAV's at AI07

HAL/SkylarkHAL is in JV/co-production agreement with Elbit called "Halbit" for skylark type UAV's -- Skylark1 (90min endurance) & Skylark2... I think more suited for urban surveillance.

ADE/Nishant
100km jam proof link, which can transmit real-time video
160km command link; 4hr30min endurance @ 3.6Km alt

Upgrade path:
Mk2 with10hr endurance on way – increased fuel loading from 56kg fuel to 100+kg by loading more fuel in the fuel tank, fuel in wings and the boom.
Nishant take-off/landing version. Further an auto-pilot takeoff/landing version.
Increased payload features – SAR, LRF plan to be included to currently existing CCTV & FLIR.

Rustom (unmanned version of Rutan) – Satcom link to base (>160km exisiting for Nishant) LOS not required.
~14hrs endurance @ 6km alt. Piston engine (instead of Wankel engine in Nishant)

Another HALE with 24hr endurance on drawing board. But probably quite far..

Lakshya
carries 250L of fuel.. 1Hr endurance..
Towed targets can have RF increase (Ljunberg lenses), IR increase, Visual ID measure to enable targetting.
7-8 tests with PTAE-7.. PTAE-7 seems to have just been accepted.
all of IAF order being delivered with PTAE-7. Half of IA order with PTAE-7.
re-engine upgrade being planned.

I tried my best to find out if the re-engine upgrade is with a foreign engine (recently ordered from Russia) or any plans for a PTAE-7 follow up.
And significance to cruise missile plans -- no clear answers..


Anyone know if there was a Rutan (or so sounding) small plane in India.. Rustom is supposed to be a unmanned version of that.. Key thing with Rustom is Satcom link to base.


Last edited by rakall on 13 Feb 2007 18:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 16:23 
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Rakall, so it seems Rustom is Rutal -NAL LCRA soembody goog;le and post pls


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 16:37 
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JCage wrote:
Rakall, so it seems Rustom is Rutal -NAL LCRA soembody goog;le and post pls


Duh.. no prizes for guessing why it was named Rustom..

apparently the person who started building the Rutan long-ez (LCRA) was Prof.Rustom Damania..

things fit in rather nicely.. it was at AI05.. look in ACIG for Rutan photos
http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_nal.htm

Rustom is supposedly an unmanned version of this with a Satcom link.. though the bird looks rather small for a supposed ~14hr endurance..


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 17:04 
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i hit it when u said rutan

nice to know a local version is going ahead, not some IAI uav - the crew can be replaced by fuel and avionics. SV-2000 gives us a radar ability. ELINT sets are ready too. One thing we'll import are thermal imagers for optronics payload.

So PTAE-7 is a success, so much for all the tension on BR and that also means russkie engines are meant for other needs

wonder which engine will go in the rustam UAV?

Nice way to remember Dr Damania..

wonder how many people here know that Nag refers to Dr Nagchaudhari for a key role in Smiling Buddha**, rather than cobra..WoP mentions it too iirc

**Google

Oh anyways..

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaSmiling.html


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 17:14 
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JCage wrote:
i hit it when u said rutan

So PTAE-7 is a success, so much for all the tension on BR and that also means russkie engines are meant for other needs

wonder which engine will go in the rustam UAV?

Nice way to remember Dr Damania..

wonder how many people here know that Nag refers to Dr Nagchaudhari for a key role in Smiling Buddha**, rather than cobra..WoP mentions it too iirc

**Google

Oh anyways..

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/IndiaSmiling.html


thanks for link.. reg Dr.Nagchaudhari..

Rustom will use a piston engine. probably the same one which goes with the Rutan kit??

Current orders for Lakshya are being delivered with PTAE-7.. there is a reengine upgrade for longer endurance i was told.. but dint specify which.

but why do you need a longer endurance for Lakshya and also 200 of them?? IIRC we were ordering 200 Ru engines.. I just hope there is something else & useful going on in there!!


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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 19:59 
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rustom engine could be the ones developed by VRDE for all we know, dunno their weight/ power etc- memory not too strong. had posted it on BR.

longer endurance for lakshya is good- we could try to use it for a UAV role too..but not too sure of that.

200 engine order and local production is definitely long term in mind, I hope it goes through. If not, PTAE-8,9!


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PostPosted: 27 Feb 2007 20:31 
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Let me summarize my reading of the present status of Indian UAV R&D:-

Pawan – around 120kg MTOW-tactical UAV- JV with Israel and ADE-Is it based on VDRE designs?

Gagan-around 250-350kg MTOW- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on conventional landing version of Nishant, will perhaps take over the role of Searcher-2

Rustam-around 1000-1200kg- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on Ruton design worked upon by DRDO- will perhaps take over the role of Heron-1


Now the aforesaid programmes seem to have been cleared. It seems that HAL has also evinced some interest also, and invited proposals for JVs (?): -

Micro-Mini UAV- Can it be 10-20kg MTOW portable UAVs like Speck?

HALE UAV- can it be new heavy turbocharged piston or even turboprop powered UAV like Heron-2 /TP or Eagle or Predator-2 with recce as well combat potential. Something like MTOW-2000 to 4000 kg, Payload of 250-500kg (?) Can Hansa be used to derive this UAV?


UCAV- for deep strike mission, ~1000km/hr speed and range of 2000km, seems like X-47 or X-45A type of platform with MTOW of around 2500-5000kg. Can it be derived from IJT?

DRDO has also evinced interest in

LCA sized UAVs which can be like X-45C or Neuron or Coarx with MTOW of 10-15 tons. Its development can be tied up with MRCA contract?

There were some talks with India and Russia on JV for HALE UAVS . I suppose the Russians will be looking for developing Zond series which can give India a long range jet powered Global Hawk category UAV with long range and high altitiude MTOW 10-15tons. India can develop CAT or even UCAV based on inputs from yak bureau and variants of its Yak-130. one can leverage the additional 40 Su-30MKI contract and Mig-29 upgradation contract for the same.


or is it all just wishful thinking


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 11:06 
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Raj Malhotra wrote:
Rustam-around 1000-1200kg- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on Ruton design worked upon by DRDO- will perhaps take over the role of Heron-1

HALE UAV- can it be new heavy turbocharged piston or even turboprop powered UAV like Heron-2 /TP or Eagle or Predator-2 with recce as well combat potential. Something like MTOW-2000 to 4000 kg, Payload of 250-500kg (?) Can Hansa be used to derive this UAV?



I think ADE has a HALE that is further than the capabilities of Rustom...
Rustom will have like 14hr endurance.. while the HALE will have ~24hr.

HAL -- i think their UAV plans are limited to JV/co-production with Elbit of Skylark types.. and/or possibly speck if IA wants it and OEM doesnt have the large manufacturing capability.. from what i gathered at Ai07 HAL doesnt have any plans for HALE/MALE UAV's..


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 11:23 
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One keyword "Swarming"

Expect "swarms" of autonomous UAVs, like a flock of birds or locusts, raining hell in the future.

These will be mass produced, as cheaply as bullets, and can be easily programmed to, say, eliminate every human in a certain geographical area.

There will be simultaneous development in group A.I. and micro-aerospace engineering to make these UAVs (imagine a mechanical locust on a kamikaze mission).

Sci-Fi: A swarm of a million such locusts is released from a ship to go attack a city/port. It flies 100 km over the sea, and this plague rains itself onto the port city, killing/neuralising all the residents and making it ready for appropriate "reconstruction".

DARPA is working on swarm theory as we speak.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 11:45 
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Swarming hm. was quite a buzzword during my college days (one of the many topics which inherently used to come up during paper presentation competitions),the ant ananlogy is a famous example of the same.Btw Rishi have you read Prey by Michael Crichton ?


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 12:00 
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Rishi wrote:
One keyword "Swarming"

Expect "swarms" of autonomous UAVs, like a flock of birds or locusts, raining hell in the future.

These will be mass produced, as cheaply as bullets, and can be easily programmed to, say, eliminate every human in a certain geographical area.


Will they be EMP resistant, or will a large short circuit be enough zap them?

I am usually very wary of technological advances which their creators plug as revolutionary. I have never seen an example of any technology having anything more than an incremental effect on the battlefield.

I am especially wary of american labs plugging their wares. If there is one thing the yanks are good at, it is blabbering/marketing.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 12:09 
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rakall wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:
Rustam-around 1000-1200kg- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on Ruton design worked upon by DRDO- will perhaps take over the role of Heron-1

HALE UAV- can it be new heavy turbocharged piston or even turboprop powered UAV like Heron-2 /TP or Eagle or Predator-2 with recce as well combat potential. Something like MTOW-2000 to 4000 kg, Payload of 250-500kg (?) Can Hansa be used to derive this UAV?



I think ADE has a HALE that is further than the capabilities of Rustom...
Rustom will have like 14hr endurance.. while the HALE will have ~24hr.

HAL -- i think their UAV plans are limited to JV/co-production with Elbit of Skylark types.. and/or possibly speck if IA wants it and OEM doesnt have the large manufacturing capability.. from what i gathered at Ai07 HAL doesnt have any plans for HALE/MALE UAV's..


Google will produce the fact of reports of interest by HAL. Also it is good to hear that ADE has a HALE in mind that is further than Rustom. India is IIRC already using Heron-2 which seems bigger than Rustom, so any more news about HALE?


Last edited by Raj Malhotra on 28 Feb 2007 12:58, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 12:30 
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Quote:
Will they be EMP resistant


Of course! :twisted: Only possible defence might be lasers... but will they be able to seperate a clutter, or recognise bugs that are 2 cm off the terrain?

Quote:
I am especially wary of american labs plugging their wares. If there is one thing the yanks are good at, it is blabbering/marketing.


Nothing in the market yet. But the theoretical work is already being done. See AIAA and Control journals.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 12:32 
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negi wrote:
Swarming hm. was quite a buzzword during my college days (one of the many topics which inherently used to come up during paper presentation competitions),the ant ananlogy is a famous example of the same.Btw Rishi have you read Prey by Michael Crichton ?


What is the Ant Analogy?

Were these papers techo, or general "bijness plans" papers?

Nope Negi, not read Prey.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 12:53 
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By Ant analogy I meant a nature's implementation of swarm i.e. swarm of slightly intelligent object work together to solve a complex problem. Ants will work together to transport a large food object back to the nest.

A typical ant behaviour:

When an ant leaves the nest looking for food, it leaves a pheromone (scent) trail for it to follow back and for other ants to follow. The first foraging ant making it back to the nest leaves a double-trail (one trail leaving, and one returning). Thus, the shortest route is doubly marked, and more ants will follow it. This simple model finds the shortest route between the nest and a food source. Allowing the pheromone trail to "evaporate" (as in nature) provides the ants a mechanism to explore for alternate food sources when the first is depleting and for alternate routes should the first become blocked.

If you google up for swarm technology you would surely find analogies from the nature (ants,termites or other creatures which have a limited individual ability but when working in a swarm towards a mutual goal they can accomplish more complex tasks).


By paper presentations I meant typical theory stuff compiled from the WWW along with some computer simulations (and in some rare cases backed by actual implementation of the same using neural N/Ws).Sigh.... that is the plight of Engg colleges in India (to my surprise IIT's arent too much different).

Rishi ji if you like fiction(sci-fi) Michael Crichton wont dissapoint you (visit th nearest library or if lucky may find a copy of Prey uploaded on esnips).


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 13:02 
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Raj Malhotra wrote:

Google will produce the fact of reports of interest by HAL. Also it is good to hear that ADE has a HALE in mind that is further than Rustom. India is IIRC already using Heron-2 which seems bigger than Rustom, so any more news about HALE?



Why google.. in all his speeches and interviews Mr.AshokBaweja mentioned HAL's interest in UAV's.. thats particularly why I tried to clarify what kind of UAV's -- and in the near future HAL's interest is limited to Skylark type tactical UAV's.. nothing in the MALE/HALE category..

I think the ADE HALE is a good 4-5years away (atleast).


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 13:24 
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negi wrote:
By paper presentations I meant typical theory stuff compiled from the WWW along with some computer simulations (and in some rare cases backed by actual implementation of the same using neural N/Ws).Sigh.... that is the plight of Engg colleges in India (to my surprise IIT's arent too much different).

Rishi ji if you like fiction(sci-fi) Michael Crichton wont dissapoint you (visit th nearest library or if lucky may find a copy of Prey uploaded on esnips).


Thanks for that. The papers I read referred to "flocking" behaviour, like birds. Each such "bird" has limited commnication and computing capability, but by talking (limited data link) to each other, the full swarm, or matrix becomes an organic living organism of sorts. very interesting.

See: http://engineering.dartmouth.edu/~Reza_ ... _tac06.pdf

Flocking for Multi-Agent Dynamic Systems: Algorithms and Theory
Quote:
The engineering applications of flocking include massive distributed sensing using mobile sensor networks in an environment; self-assembly of connected mobile networks; automated parallel delivery of payloads; and performing military missions such as reconnaissance, surveillance, and combat using cooperative Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs).


Image

Above: Taken from one of the papers.. showing cooperative flocking behaviour around obstacles.

The Bane of the IITs is too many projects that rely on simulation as a means of investigation, instead of the tough theoretical ground work that is required. So easy to present a paper by giving bullshit results from simultaions using various Genetic Algorithms and, as u said, Neural Networks etc. Will catch hold of prey.


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 15:46 
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Vijay J, where art thou?

Amerika bahadur has $$ and manhours to waste on things such as:

Quote:
http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~murray/wiki ... ol_Systems

Characterization of Insect Flight Control Systems

The current global objective of the project is to characterize and mathematically formalize (i.e. reverse engineer) the sensory-motor control system of the fly to a degree that its salient features can be used for the design of micro air vehicles and other autonomous systems of interest to the military. Toward this high-level goal, we are characterizing through direct experimentation and modeling the key components of the flight control system including (1) take-off, (2) rubustness to wing gust, (3) chemical tracking, and (4) sensory fusion (of visual and gyroscopic input). In most of our research we are using the common fruit fly, Drosophila, as our model system for studying and extracting flight control algorithms and architecture
.

Of course, Poor Indian Grad Students will go for the honeytrap, maybe advancing American Military Tech, maybe denying India brains for other use. Thing is, America is happy with either.

Unfortunately, this means India will always only have the Sukhoi/LCA to the F-22. (generation+ lag in tech). What to do? Time for Tea.

<end rant>


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PostPosted: 28 Feb 2007 15:51 
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This goes here i guess:

America prepares for dominating the Urban Battlefield (with Automatic taxis like in Totall Recall being the spin-off). So no more losing soldiers in hummers while on patrol in Iraq-style situations.

http://gc.caltech.edu/public/Team_Caltech

Quote:
The 2007 Urban Challenge is an autonomous vehicle competition that will take place on 3 November 2007, sponsored by DARPA. The competition will involve 60 miles of autonomous driving in which a vehicle must:

    Operate on city streets, obeying lane markings and traffic rules, including operation around sharp turns, through intersections, and while passing.
    Exhibit safe-following behavior when approaching other vehicles from behind in a traffic lane, including maintaining a safe-following distance.
    Exhibit safe check-and-go behavior when pulling around a stopped vehicle, pulling out of parking spot, moving through intersections, and in situations where collision is possible.
    Stay on the road and in a legal and appropriate travel lane while en route, including around sharp turns, through intersections, and while passing.
    Navigate safely in areas where GPS signals are partially or entirely blocked, including following paved and unpaved roads and stay in lane with very sparse or low accuracy GPS waypoints.
    Navigate toward a destination in a large, open area where minimal or no GPS points are provided, as in loading dock areas or parking lots. These areas may contain fixed obstacles such as parked vehicles and moving obstacles including other vehicles.
    Safely pull into and back out of a specified parking space in a parking lot.
    Safely execute one or more three-point turning maneuvers to effect a U-turn.
    Dynamically re-plan and execute the route to a destination if the primary route is blocked or impassable.
    All operations must be fully autonomous (no human intervention allowed).


Added later: DARPA has a list of amazing projects ar this page: http://www.darpa.mil/dso/programs.htm

If this is the stuff they say they are doing in public, one can only imagine the secret programs.


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PostPosted: 01 Mar 2007 02:42 
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Yeah! One look at all that research can intimidate best of minds. The research is quite comprehensive and exaustive. Where do they get all the money to do that? The budgets should be huge for all this, that too considering that all this is in the open. No wonder no one even comes close to USA in terms of tech. Recently a program in the Histrory channel, claimed that there are atleast 9- 16 black programs that are to be made public in the near future that ensure complete dominance of US weapons well into the future. While we SDREs Ohh Ahh it for every nut assembly. I know, that is stretching a bit, but thats how it feels after looking at all this.

There should be some institutional mechanism in India for developing advanced technolgy systems and weapons.


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2007 15:08 
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Re Rakall


article 1 article 2

If you look at these articles they mention the interest of HAL and Drdo in various kinds of UAV. In fact the second article even says that HAL interest is superceding DRDO (??) But i assume that you would have better ground info from ARer show.


Incidentally Russian Zond 3, I suppose can be derived from the experince of Lakshya (?)


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2007 15:28 
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Location: Col of the regiment, ORR JTF unit
so 2 million jihadi insects come howling in from the sea, looking to lay waste a wide swathe of town.

> radars placed on coastal sites detect the swarm emerging and forming
> up for the attack, coalesing into several attack vectors low over the sea.

> as the swarm approaches to within 20km, 155m short barrel howitzers
> start unloading FAE and HE-hyperfrag rounds designed to disperse into
its own swam of bomblets before exploding. lakhs of the locusts die as the
FAE and clusters 'sanitize' large volumes of airspace. the remnants of the
jihadi horde regroup and launch a final deadly attack upon the city shore

A troop of UAV helicopters armed with long extended prongs like a AAR
probe take off. each pair of prongs holds a metal screen charged to a
high voltage. they hover in path of swarm letting the jihadis smack into
the electrified net and Bzzzt.

A lone manned fighter flying at 45000ft spots the launch ship and puts
it at the bottom with a air launched stealth torpedo.


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2007 15:40 
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OK GD, so you can counter Sci-Fi my Sci-Fi attack.

Just to make it complicated, what if the swarm flies an inch off the ground/sea? Or a Bullock cart delivers it inside the city?


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2007 19:04 
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Raj Malhotra wrote:
Let me summarize my reading of the present status of Indian UAV R&D:-

Pawan – around 120kg MTOW-tactical UAV- JV with Israel and ADE-Is it based on VDRE designs?



...two engines have been developed by VRDE for specific apps..but I doubt whether they are going for complete UAV systems..


Quote:
Gagan-around 250-350kg MTOW- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on conventional landing version of Nishant, will perhaps take over the role of Searcher-2

Rustam-around 1000-1200kg- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on Ruton design worked upon by DRDO- will perhaps take over the role of Heron-1


Who says these are JVs with Israel? They seem to be ADE-NAL designs with subsystems sourced from Israel, at most**. The Gagan is an enhanced Nishant, the Rustam is the LRCA/ Rutan Long EZ from NAL, makes sense that the Pawan might be likewise.

**The key systems we might get from Israel are long range FLIR and compact SAR payloads. If the SV-2000 has SAR developed (as Harry stated), even the latter might not be used.


Now the aforesaid programmes seem to have been cleared. It seems that HAL has also evinced some interest also, and invited proposals for JVs (?): - [/quote]

I think HAL will be the lead integrator for the above UAVs as part of a public-private partnership as in other DRDO projects. By itself HAL does not have the ability to develop all subsystems, viz its electronics. Expect, Dynamatics, Tata, L&T, Astra etc all DRDO partners to be involved.



Quote:
Micro-Mini UAV- Can it be 10-20kg MTOW portable UAVs like Speck?


Not funded by GOI, hence not part of the plan. Would be a good addition though.

Quote:
HALE UAV- can it be new heavy turbocharged piston or even turboprop powered UAV like Heron-2 /TP or Eagle or Predator-2 with recce as well combat potential. Something like MTOW-2000 to 4000 kg, Payload of 250-500kg (?) Can Hansa be used to derive this UAV?


Forget designations, they are all over the place..what we define as HALE somebody might say MALE, and Defense News will call it something else..

The RUSTOM seems to be the top dawg in our design spectrum..


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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2007 19:24 
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Rakall seems to say that there is bigger dog above Rustom (?)

Also the above news article from Raghuvanshi seems to indicate that HAL is interested in other things also, It would be interesting if HAL goes in for turbofan powered UAVs while Drdo props.

As I said that IJT will nicely translate into a X-47 size of platform

CAT-AJT into Global Hawk


while LCA into X-45C

Among lot of missiles being worked upon Drdo there does not seem any interest towards a IR WVR AAM or an ARM which should be an imp part of arsenal while lot of other even more complicated projects are being handled

Though holographic sight news is very good. Indian infantry needs it. I only hope that IA orders it quickly rather than dragging it through endless trials. (Or Para military may even place the first orders :D )


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 00:17 
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Raj Malhotra wrote:
Rakall seems to say that there is bigger dog above Rustom (?)


I didnt read it that way...will wait for him to clarify.. :?: :idea:

Quote:
Also the above news article from Raghuvanshi seems to indicate that HAL is interested in other things also, It would be interesting if HAL goes in for turbofan powered UAVs while Drdo props.

As I said that IJT will nicely translate into a X-47 size of platform

CAT-AJT into Global Hawk


while LCA into X-45C


HAL is basically looking for ready solutions to get a footprint in the arena. DRDO/NAL are looking for competence building from the POV of R&D...
If they hammer out an agreement, its good. Coming to the issue of HALE---Rustam, MALE-- Nishant derivative...Short range etc- IAI UAV..thats how I read it...no time to sit and pore over specs..

Turbofan/ UCAVs are indeed the future...but we need to get our basics right...look at the subsystems for key programs- such as AEW&C & indeed UCAVs and more data intensive platforms are a possibility..

Quote:
Among lot of missiles being worked upon Drdo there does not seem any interest towards a IR WVR AAM or an ARM which should be an imp part of arsenal while lot of other even more complicated projects are being handled


if we look at the subsystems being developed some of these programs, eg WVR AAMs can be addressed..ARMs are a different matter...some more footwork to go in that respect...also while the IAF may gladly purchase KH-31Ps from abroad...expect nothing but the latest, multi-band, widebandwidth seekers from any homegrown ARM..and that kind of seeker will take time to develop (if launched!)..imported seekers are always an option for an ARM...Russia is offering industry standard units...

Quote:
Though holographic sight news is very good. Indian infantry needs it. I only hope that IA orders it quickly rather than dragging it through endless trials. (Or Para military may even place the first orders :D )


..this is a holographic reflex sight..good local market and will be manufactured by BEL or one of DRDOs designated private secture manufacturers.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 00:34 
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JCage wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:
Let me summarize my reading of the present status of Indian UAV R&D:-

Pawan – around 120kg MTOW-tactical UAV- JV with Israel and ADE-Is it based on VDRE designs?



...two engines have been developed by VRDE for specific apps..but I doubt whether they are going for complete UAV systems..


Quote:
Gagan-around 250-350kg MTOW- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on conventional landing version of Nishant, will perhaps take over the role of Searcher-2

Rustam-around 1000-1200kg- JV with Israel and ADE - supposedly based on Ruton design worked upon by DRDO- will perhaps take over the role of Heron-1

Who says these are JVs with Israel? They seem to be ADE-NAL designs with subsystems sourced from Israel, at most**. The Gagan is an enhanced Nishant, the Rustam is the LRCA/ Rutan Long EZ from NAL, makes sense that the Pawan might be likewise.

**The key systems we might get from Israel are long range FLIR and compact SAR payloads. If the SV-2000 has SAR developed (as Harry stated), even the latter might not be used.


Now the aforesaid programmes seem to have been cleared. It seems that HAL has also evinced some interest also, and invited proposals for JVs (?): -

I think HAL will be the lead integrator for the above UAVs as part of a public-private partnership as in other DRDO projects. By itself HAL does not have the ability to develop all subsystems, viz its electronics. Expect, Dynamatics, Tata, L&T, Astra etc all DRDO partners to be involved.

Quote:
Micro-Mini UAV- Can it be 10-20kg MTOW portable UAVs like Speck?


Not funded by GOI, hence not part of the plan. Would be a good addition though.

Quote:
HALE UAV- can it be new heavy turbocharged piston or even turboprop powered UAV like Heron-2 /TP or Eagle or Predator-2 with recce as well combat potential. Something like MTOW-2000 to 4000 kg, Payload of 250-500kg (?) Can Hansa be used to derive this UAV?


Forget designations, they are all over the place..what we define as HALE somebody might say MALE, and Defense News will call it something else..

The RUSTOM seems to be the top dawg in our design spectrum..


respectful request to JCage,

Please be aware of technical info that may or may not be public,
the above (underlined) answer was in reply to a bait question,
the questioner poses a false conclusion and forces you to provide clarification

RM is under scanner for asking too many questions

JCage, please be careful

Admins, please note


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 00:40 
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rakall wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:

Google will produce the fact of reports of interest by HAL. Also it is good to hear that ADE has a HALE in mind that is further than Rustom. India is IIRC already using Heron-2 which seems bigger than Rustom, so any more news about HALE?



Why google.. in all his speeches and interviews Mr.AshokBaweja mentioned HAL's interest in UAV's.. thats particularly why I tried to clarify what kind of UAV's -- and in the near future HAL's interest is limited to Skylark type tactical UAV's.. nothing in the MALE/HALE category..

I think the ADE HALE is a good 4-5years away (atleast).


Rakall-san,

Please please do not provide info to "Raj Malhotra"
he is neither Raj nor Malhotra

Admins, BR has reached a kind of maturity and there are many people with insider information and there need to be an avenue to watch lurkers

I have a log of "Raj Malhotra" entire list of questions, anyone who need to see it, please email me, the dude is asking too many questions,


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 01:03 
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Lkawamoto,
You are making serious allegations against a member, hope you can provide evidence to support it. Didn't Shiv mention to you that he knows Raj Malhotra? In any case if any of the members disclose classified information (if they have it in the first place) they will be behind bars.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 05:30 
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Lk,

I am careful about what I post on BR. What I have posted will not affect our security- the only aim is to provide clarity and avoid misconceptions about the Indian MIC.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 06:18 
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Location: Khalasi-in-Chief, 9211th Sanitary Battalion, Northern Light Infantry, Skardu
Slightly offtopic to this thread but anyhow...

One significant thing which I notice in US is that sarkari organizations like DARPA, US Special Operations Command etc. have strong research ties with all the major universities in the country. They not only fund research in a big way but work quite closely with faculty and students on real world complex problems (not just some menial task such as make so and so washer and nut-bolt). From my personal experience and from what I see around me this is what drives innovation forward and breeds new technology and researchers.

For example, the DARPA Urban challenge which is mentioned here (and the previous Grand challenge)....the guys who competed in building these autonomous vehicles were not 50 year old PhDs with 100s of research papers but mostly ordinary grad students (Masters and PhD students) studying in universities (ofcourse helped by faculty and strong industry backup in case of most universities (including mine)). But if you look at the finished product and what they achieved....totally incredible! So when guys who participated in stuff like this graduate and go to work in research labs and industry they already are heads and shoulders above the rest....cant beat this kind of advantage....one of the reasons why amrika bahadur is still way ahead in terms of technology.

Rishi wrote:
This goes here i guess:

America prepares for dominating the Urban Battlefield (with Automatic taxis like in Totall Recall being the spin-off). So no more losing soldiers in hummers while on patrol in Iraq-style situations.

Added later: DARPA has a list of amazing projects ar this page: http://www.darpa.mil/dso/programs.htm

If this is the stuff they say they are doing in public, one can only imagine the secret programs.


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 07:46 
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Lkawamoto wrote:
rakall wrote:
Raj Malhotra wrote:

Google will produce the fact of reports of interest by HAL. Also it is good to hear that ADE has a HALE in mind that is further than Rustom. India is IIRC already using Heron-2 which seems bigger than Rustom, so any more news about HALE?



Why google.. in all his speeches and interviews Mr.AshokBaweja mentioned HAL's interest in UAV's.. thats particularly why I tried to clarify what kind of UAV's -- and in the near future HAL's interest is limited to Skylark type tactical UAV's.. nothing in the MALE/HALE category..

I think the ADE HALE is a good 4-5years away (atleast).


Rakall-san,

Please please do not provide info to "Raj Malhotra"
he is neither Raj nor Malhotra

Admins, BR has reached a kind of maturity and there are many people with insider information and there need to be an avenue to watch lurkers

I have a log of "Raj Malhotra" entire list of questions, anyone who need to see it, please email me, the dude is asking too many questions,


:rotfl:


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PostPosted: 04 Mar 2007 12:06 
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I think LK should take it easy, lot of BRites have met and know me. Not to mention people who do have classified info would obvioulsy not post it on the forum. The problem is that the info that "Drdo-OFB" would like to actually disseminate is also not available. I wonder if he thinks that whol Aero show is an excercise to rob india of its vedic secrets :wink:


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2007 02:09 
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Joined: 30 Jan 2007 12:57
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JCage wrote:
ARMs are a different matter...some more footwork to go in that respect...also while the IAF may gladly purchase KH-31Ps from abroad...expect nothing but the latest, multi-band, widebandwidth seekers from any homegrown ARM..and that kind of seeker will take time to develop (if launched!)..imported seekers are always an option for an ARM...Russia is offering industry standard units...


JCage,

Look out for an ARM version of the Brahmos in the pipeline. The basic Brahmos airframe provides us with long range, high speed, a lot of room for a seeker, and a large warhead. Perfect for an ARM.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2007 03:10 
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Rishi wrote:
OK GD, so you can counter Sci-Fi my Sci-Fi attack.

Just to make it complicated, what if the swarm flies an inch off the ground/sea? Or a Bullock cart delivers it inside the city?


DARPA's hybrid insect-mems program (HIMEMS) is very promising.

see this previous thread link

You can't hope to kill large numbers of chip-guided insects by hoping that they'll conveniently swarm together into your net. It's upto the controller how the insects would be deployed.

Like any drone, they could be providing continuous feedback to their controller, who would take appropriate measures.

Besides, how are you going to tell chip-implanted insects apart from the regular insects? How are you going to spot them? It would be impossible.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2007 03:38 
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New Data Technology Makes Aerial Reconnaissance Video Available to Users in the Field

(Source: US Army; issued Feb. 28, 2007)



NORFOLK, Va. --- An advanced prototype funded and managed by U.S. Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) puts video from unmanned aerial systems into the hands of joint warfighters at the tactical level.

The Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance Information Service (ISRIS) compresses video and data into downloadable files on a server, which users can access with commonly used Web browsers and video software.

"ISRIS is an information service that takes full motion video from unmanned aircraft platforms and makes that available inside a server architecture so that a user can access both live and archived video and associated data," Darone said. "The unique aspect of ISRIS is it takes the video data and compresses it in a fashion such that it can support low bandwidth users, down to the level of dial-up."

"For example, we began with the Predator UAV and we have a full-scale suite of operations at Nellis Air Force Base in the Predator ops center that handles Predators flying over Iraq and Afghanistan today and puts that information into our ISRIS servers and allows not only the Air Force controllers who are out there flying the mission to collaborate amongst themselves, but also provides that data as a source to anyone anywhere else who wants to see where those Predator mission are flying.


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PostPosted: 05 Mar 2007 19:30 
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Lakshya flight-tested


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2007 13:51 
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http://www.defense-update.com/events/20 ... a07-10.htm

Despite the extensive use of UAVs by the Indian armed forces, at Bangalore, unmanned aircraft were shadowed by the MRCA fighter program. Only two systems were displayed in the static park - the Indian Nishant and British Herti with few more were displayed inside the exhibition halls, particularly at the Israeli pavilion.

The DRDO displayed the Nishant with its new Advanced Ground Control System (AGCS), configured to meet current and future UAV programs. The system uses four ergonomically designed consoles for the piot, mission commander, payload operator and image exploitation functions. Each console comprises a 21.3" high resolution TFT display supporting picture-in-picture capability, supporting the presentation of payload imagery, electronic maps (in raster and vector modes).

Image


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PostPosted: 06 Mar 2007 14:03 
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Lkawamoto wrote:
Rakall-san,

Please please do not provide info to "Raj Malhotra"
he is neither Raj nor Malhotra

Admins, BR has reached a kind of maturity and there are many people with insider information and there need to be an avenue to watch lurkers

I have a log of "Raj Malhotra" entire list of questions, anyone who need to see it, please email me, the dude is asking too many questions,


Lkawamoto, I know who Raj Malhotra is, having met him on BR meets for the past 6-7 years. He is neither a lurker nor a person with inside info or in any way linked to the defence/security industry in his day job.

He paid for the meal on the last BR meet for which his generosity is gracefully acknowledged. :)


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