Bharat Rakshak

Link to Previous Thread : viewtopic.php?p=1246807#p1246807

Starting with Vipul Post
Govt takes money back, Army grapples for arms.



Other important references

http://Indianarmy.nic.in
http://mod.nic.in

Exclusion: Well Mods say no Martial Races, that is it.

Nine soldiers killed in Kashmir avalanche


sad news . RIP to brave men in Uniform.

From Previous thread by Kunal Verma,

Quote:

Operative paras are 10 and 11.
Frankly, the moment GOI withdrew their letter of 30 December 2011, VKS's lawyers should have withdrawn and left since the petition basically was challenging that order. Media reports are all based on deliberations which have no meaning and GOI is trying to hide under the media smokescreen. The Order does not say anything about the validity of two date of births, about three acceptance letters, etc. The ball is squarely back in AKA's court. VKS is right, there is no controversy. His YOB is 1951 in the AG's branch even now. Babujis are fully aware of this. They again order a correction, it'll be illegal.

The Govt clearly says that only part of its order is withdrawn and that part of the order which says his Statutory complaint is not maintainable stays. Does it mean that his statutory complaint is rejected (they have only withdrawn the advise of AG inserted as part of the Dec 30 order)

Am I right? If yes, then the General's Statutory complaint is rejected as not maintainable. isn't it?

Indian Express reports 11 dead

RIP

If a brigade hq has been hit by a massive avalanche, there will probably be a lot more casualties.. :-( Something like this may have been of some help.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 53181868/1

people cannot wear avalanche bags in daily life. some more civil engg oriented avanlanche protection methods exist.

ofcourse there is the cost + effort of effecting these measures....far better than losing a single life though
http://www.geobrugg.com/contento/Englis ... fault.aspx

The buck shall stop nowhere ?

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-bu ... ing/224538

lots of avalanche prone slopes in europe have various barriers and deflectors permanently installed where they overhang roads or habitation - i imagine the maintenance overhead for these might be quite significant - but then in european alps, the skiing industry probably justifies this expense

12 Indian Army Soldiers killed in 2 avalanches

It takes the toll to 19 this year. Seven died on 24th Jan.

Certainly seems to be the case.

Indian Army avalanche toll rises to 16, 3 still missing

Names and map included. next update probably @ 8 pm

Have been a stalker for some years now and used to wonder what will make me take the plunge and post in BR. This topic is too interesting for me to watch as an observer from the sidelines.

There is no simple justification for classifying people as "martial races". Don't think it happens or has happened anywhere else in the world, so why have it here…??

The most logical rationale was simply to divide and rule and ofcourse have a class of people who are rewarded for remaining loyal (punjabis, dogras, pathans, garhwalis etc). However, there is also a "martial tradition" residing in these people and they take pride in "soldiering" and is typically considered a very honorable and logical profession. More importantly, soldiering has also got glorified in their respective literary & cultural traditions (eg. there is overwhelming reference to soldiering and martyrdom in dogri literature).

Does this mean the bravery or sacrifice is a monopoly of these peoples only? Ofcourse not...!!

My father fought multiple wars (and was awarded VrC in '71) and his personal experience has shown enough acts of bravery from supposedly "non martial" "thambi" troops versus "martial" "xyz" troops

The Brits had a class composition defined right down to rifle companies in infantry battalions… My maternal grand dad got commissioned in ’42 into “10th Baluch” – at that time there were 2 rifle companies of Pashtuns (1 cy of Khattaks and 1 of Yusufzais), the other were 1 of Punjabi Mussalmans and 1 of Dogra (Rajputs & Brahmins). Interestingly, the Baluch Regiment had stopped recruiting Baluch for some time simply because they were too unreliable for soldiering (irrespective of their martial traditions) since their tribal loyalty was supreme (even above the regiment code etc.)

One does feel proud belonging to a martial race. It somewhere adds to a sort of expectation setting to behave in a certain manner, but it is more in the mind than anything else, since it does not guarantee any results whatsoever… So inspite of having “martial” lineage – dogra on Dad’s side and mohyal on Mom’s side… I still feel that martial race is an illogical, archaic and biased concept… Just my 0.02 $

The brigade at Dawar is known as the Snow Leopard Brigade. I spent three wonderful days with them last October. The cliffs on the Northern side are very avalanche prone. Its a beautiful Valley but even then the officers kept telling me how horrible and dangerous it was once the snow arrived. My heart goes out to all those killed and their families.

ajay sharma - well put

+1

The last thread was closed due to the 'martial' races theory of the British. I suggest that no more more posts either for or against be psoted in this thread.

Thanks,

ramana

I missed out the last 24 hours' action Ramana ji, so didnt realize why it was locked...

Ajay thanks for a sensitive and sensible post.

As is my wont I am merely using your words to say something that was sparked off in my mind. All of us communicate in English on here and not all of us are exposed to the same innuendo and meaning and "weight of history" in English words when we use them. The language is important because it was the primarly language of the British colonizer from whom we picked up the language.

The word "race" in particular has a history of being used in peculiar ways which were far from innocent. When a person claimed that he belonged to a particular "race" he often used that word to show how he was in some ways superior to people of other races. Similarly when this man said that someone belonged to some other race, he was giving the other person some characteristics that were often uncomplimentary.

In race theory people were attributed characteristics that were good or bad. It so happened that some poeple were called (by the british) as martial races. The people who were called martial races naturally felt proud to be associated with positive characteristics. There were other races that were called "criminal races". Again, it was a British race classification. because the Brits were so apt to classify people as races they looked at Indian social classifications and promptly called them "races"

If you live in India today you are living among people who may have been called all sorts of races by the Brits. You are living among people whose parents were declared as criminal or stupid and others who were praised. If you look at early Brit literature, Brahmins were praised and they felt good. Dark skinned people of the South were told that they were an inferior race and resentment was created among some of them.

In the days before genetics became a precise science it was possible for people to conjure up "race" theories of people who were half man half chimpanzee - descended from a cross breeding between a man and chimp many generations ago and progressively mixed with other inferior "races". Only the European white was a pure race. Indians were of mixed inferior race. "Martial race" made a good loyal chowkidar/watchman for the Brits. He may have been better than others in the British viewpoint, but nowhere near pure man.

As long as we hold on to these Britsh definitions - we can have nothing but dispute. This is part of distorted history. There are people in India who have a martial tradition. You come from a family with a martial tradition. Welcome to BRF. You are not a martial race which also means that your people were loyal servants of the Brits, could be depended on to shoot fellow Indians and were immune to venereal diseases when they slept with random women. All these "characteristics" were attributed to martial "races".

Please drop the race word. You are not a separate race from me. We are the same people, but your family has a glorious and honorable tradition. They are not a separate "race"

A tragic loss of lives of our valiant jawans,who serve in the most inhospitable conditions imaginable.Let's see how many of our VVIPs and VIPs with their black cat guardians,utter words of sympathy over the tragedy.

This fatal avalanche does not make sense.

Heavy precipitation is not unexpected by IA at those places and so does watching out for weaker base layers at higher ridges/slopes. I remember seeing an old Doordarshan report back in the early 90s about base layer stabilizing measures using permanent anchor/posts on known ridges of instability, as well as using mortars/light artillery to trigger a "controlled repacking avalanche event" (for want of a better word - basically to cause the controlled avalanche to pack snow denser) of such lower density base layers. A weather report of imminent snow dumping would mean a patrol going up and checking for the flake size of the layers, density etc. Particularly over a biggish establishment like the brigade HQ here.

I really hope they get to the bottom of this (including possibility of human triggered events - fatality might be due to too many boulders), so lessons are applied to other spots. They have lots of highly competent folks to figure this one out.

Nicely put Shiv ji!

On topic, all the papers say that there was a warning given by Disaster Management Cell of a possible avalanche for these areas. There should have been some response to such a warning. RIP!

In the pre Kargil days the Army would have left some of the more dangerous posts unmanned. Unfortunately thanks to Mushraf's strategic brilliance, both Indian and Pakistani soldiers can no longer take the chance.

Outlook has carried Gen Tubby Nayar's letter to the PM. Interesting to see how many papers eventually publish it, since almost all are guilty of having reported on the proceedings rather than the actual SC Order. I know that the General has sent Shekhar Gupta his letter and also spoken to him. Similarly, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat has forwarded it to the editor of the Hindu among others.
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?280023

Agree 100% Shiv, it was for want of a better word that I used the word race. Perhaps in hindsight, "class" would have been more apt.

But ofcourse, we all are the same people with a very glorious tradition dating back 1000s of years. To try to look down upon others from the supposed "non-martial" classes is to somewhere state that I dont have any link with the 1000s of years of tradition which is a combined legacy of "all" people of India... No why should any sane person try to do that

perhaps we need more UAV's to patrol difficult geographical boundaries, save the lives of the man on the ground

Army and Airforce rescue civilians from avalanche areas in Kashmir

Sort of must read.

the 2nd in line to the Dutch throne was hit by an avalanche last week whilst skiing offpiste with a friend in Austria. the friend was wearing an avalanche bag and got out ok. the prince was buried in the snow, but was found thanks to a locator beacon, but he was oxygen starved for about 50 minutes. although he is in hospital in innsbruck, it is feared that he has suffered massive brain damage and may not recover

- sorry, buried/oxygen starved for 15 mins, friend dug him upto the surface with his hands, then help arrived within 50 mins
austrian authorities considering charging friend with negligent harm offenses since he was the guide, but since they are old friends, this is not considered a serious intent

Maj D P Singh says, 'It pays to be positive'.

http://menshealth.intoday.in/story/deve ... /3688.html

This is so sad and unexpected, but avalanches are inevitable when there is heavy snowfall.Hats off to the rescue teams,great effort.

I met Gen Ian Cardozo and he has shared the following article with us.The spelling mistakes etc are mine as I have typed the article out from the god general's handwritten sheets.
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BROADBANDING DISABILITY PENSION FOR THE WAR DISABLED
Major General(retd.) Ian Cardozo,AVSM,SM

1.the issue of broadbanding disability pension for the war-disabled and the response of the Ministry of Defence (MoD) brings to centre-stage the attitude of the Government to the armed forces in general and the war-disabled in particular.

2. The crux of this issue is that the MoD is adamant that war-disabled personnel who have continued in service should be excluded from broadbanding for the purpose of disability pension.
3.In most armies of the world,armed forces personnel who get disabled in war are compensated for the disability from the day the disability occurs.
In India, the MoD however has ensured that war-disabled personnel of the Indian Armed Forces are compensated only after they retire.To ensure that this happens they have termed this compensation as ‘disability pension’ instead of terming it as ‘disability allowance’.
We are all aware that pension is something given only after one retires. That this is a narrow-minded discriminatory decision can best be understood when one notes that if a war-disabled person who continues in service and dies on account of his wounds before he retires gets no war-disabled benefit whatsoever.
4.After the Kargil War,the Fifth Pay Commission reviewed this unsatisfactory and discriminatory state of affairs and declared that all war-disabled personnel need to be treated at par irrespective of their date of retirement.Their logic was that compensation for disability caused by war and date of retirement had no connection whatsoever.The pension department accepted the recommendation of the Fifth Pay Commission and amended their ‘Pension Regulations’ accordingly.
5.The MoD however persisted in their absurd and vindictive stand and refused to accept the recommendation of the Fifth Pay Commission or the revised pension regulations.
6.After waiting for more than a decade Lieutenant General Vijay Oberoi,PVSM,AVSM,VSM ,the ex Vice Chief of Army Staff who was disabled in the 1965 Indo-Pak Wartook up the case with the Armed Forces Tribunal, Chandigarh who supported his stand that compensation for disability suffered in war had nothing to do with the date of retirement.The MoD did not accept the decision of the AFT.The General then took up the case with the High Court and finally the Supreme Court after the Ministry of Defence refused to resile from its stand at each successive stage.
Frankly,the stand taken by the MoD is difficult to comprehend.To take a charitable view,all that one can say is that the Ministry is ill-advised by their staff.However,they need to understand that they are getting a bad reputation because of this.
This perverse attitude of the Government towards the war-disabled is not new.This can be gauged from the fact that all battle casualties of the 1965 and 1971 wars who remained in Hospital beyond six months were put on half-pay .Taking into consideration that I had to undergo three amputations which is what often happens and then to wait for the wounds to heal before an artificial leg could be fitted-how can one hope to be out of hospital before the deadline of six months?
These aspects of service cannot be understood by bureaucrats who sit in air-conditioned offices and who are totally unaware of the conditions under which armed forces personnel have to serve.I am not sure whether this issue has been resolved because I was told by an officer who got disabled during the Kargil War that this rule continues to persist.
Basically ,this is therefore a question of attitude of the MoD and the Government of India towards the war-disabled :an attitude that is negative and harsh for reasons that are incomprehensible.
That they cannot and will nto understandis why persons join and serve in the armed forces.they cannot understand that we undergo harsh conditions of service because we place ‘country first and self last’ ;that the army is a way of life and not a mere job and that we place our lives on the line and disappear in the smoke and fire of battle for the love of our country and the love for the people of India.
That in essence is the meaning of morale and that is what the Ministry of Defence is doing its best to destroy.
This issue and many such others point clearly to the fact that civilian bureaucrats are ignorant of the conditions in which we serve and why we continue to serve despite a clearly biased attitude by the Government. Although India has fought five wars since independence we have yet to dedicate a war memorial to our war dead.The Government needs to understand that ‘a nation that fails to honour its war-dead dishonours itself’ and a nation that fails to care for its war disabled destroys the very edifice of what motivates a soldier to fight.
This lack of understanding is one of the reasons why the Army is short of 14,000 officers.Why will they join when it is clear we are not treated with honour?
It appears that the Government feels that armed forces personnel whould be ‘seen and not heard’.What they fail to understand is that soldiers “think and feel”.This is the very edifice of morale and it is this morale that causes the soldier to fight and to make the Supreme Sacrifice when called to do so.
So what is the solution? The Kargil Committee recommended amongst other things the integration of the armed forces headquarters and the positioning of armed forces personnel within the MoD.
It is more than decade that these recommendations were made.This needs to be implemented soon.
The sooner the better.
It is already too late!.

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An officer of the 5th Gorkha Rifles (FF), Maj Gen Ian Cardozo was severely wounded due to mine blast injuries after being dropped behind enemy lines in the Sylhet Sector in India's first heliborne operation during the Indo-Pak War 1971. Uncaring of his serious wounds, he cut off his injured foot with his khukri. He too chose to soldier on in his regiment. Later, he became the first officer with an artificial leg to command a battalion and later a Brigade. He Subsequently commanded a division and retired as Chief of Staff of a Corps in the Eastern Sector. He is now a social activist, author and military historian. His books, “Paramvir: Our Heroes in Battle” and “The Sinking of INS KHUKRI” have received both critical and popular acclaim. He is currently Chairman of the Rehabilitation Council of India.

Sometimes I feel that educated Indians who use the English language have picked up a sense of vicious sarcasm and evil humor that they do not always manage to apply in appropriate situations. The headline above tears my heart and I wish I could strangle the ba$tard who wrote that headline. It ain't funny.

+1

No news of any such similar damage on the TSP side?

Can anyone identify the gun in the picture above ? SLR ?