Indian Army : News and Discussion

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 26 Mar 2012 11:58

Why do I get a feeling that somebody at the top is involved in this alleged corruption case involving international arms syndicate as well? Why else did the Defence Ministry not follow up on whose patronage did this lobbyist have?

The retired army officer must prepare himself for a CBI 'chapa' anytime soon. Let the party begin!

Bravo Gen Singh! Thank you for calling a spade a spade.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 26 Mar 2012 12:07

This stuff is happening all the time and everyone in dilli is aware of it. VKS just revealed one and there are probably many other cases. Let me just give you an example, a tank part manufacturer says he doesn't need an R&D dept because he is virtually assured orders by bribing people. Even mayawati was robbing a thief.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 12:10

I would say that this man, VKS, is a failure of the system. A system that is usually adept at not allowing men of his integrity and steadfastness to raise above a certain level. In that respect the political masters and the bureaucrats have themselves to blame for the failure. As a nation we are lucky to see them fail at times so that a semblance of order is restored. I can not dare think what will happen when that luck runs out. JMT.

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 26 Mar 2012 12:13

So at the least we're looking at Tatra getting blacklisted? * gulp *

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 12:20

A benign view of how VKS has put himself in the harm's way, one more time.

http://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... u_know_who

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 26 Mar 2012 12:48

I don't why the General is behaving the way he is. What catches my eye is that he actually walked up to Saint Antony and said ' if I am not fitting the system, then let me know I'll step aside'. It is very clear he offered to resign and GOI declined. Rather they chose a technicality to get back him.

Also why didn't the General himself ordered a Court of Inquiry if not a CBI probe (he can't order CBI probe but CoI is well within his power).

Why is Mr Antony not denying having had this conversation with the chief? Why did it take for Chief to come out in open and Parliament to rock yet again for a probe to be launched?

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 12:56

^It is like this - I can not order/ convene a court of inquiry if I am going to be Witness No 1. It has to be convened by someone, at least one step higher than me, because the person convening the court has to order further action based on the findings.
If VKS had ordered court of inquiry, deposed as a Witness before it and further directed action based on the findings of the court, all by himself, it would be absurd. So, what he did was right, ie report it to a superior and then it would be the superior's call.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Mar 2012 13:02

Good he did it in open and try taking down bad folks. I am sure same people were involved maligning him.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 26 Mar 2012 13:09

Thankyou Nelson Ji. I get your drift.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 26 Mar 2012 13:17

nelson ji, now you've two ex-chiefs supporting your argument.

2 ex-Chiefs-S. Roychoudhury & VP Malik put the onus on Antony & MoD to probe Army Chief allegation abt being offered a 14-cr bribe.

Nitin Gokhale

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 26 Mar 2012 13:21

TOI news story have some posters taking very strong view against the chief.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 411878.cms

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Mar 2012 13:42

haiyo devuda now Gen.Kapoor and Gen.J.Singh will be under the scanner. Put an officer like K.Srinivas Reddy(Andhra ACB joint dir and AP liquor scam buster) in charge of this and see how many skeletons will tumble out. Someone has to pay for this

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Mar 2012 13:45

^^ Damn, VKS mentions that the Tatra trucks offered were sub-standard!!!

And we have atleast 5K of them in inventory....wonder how many of them are just junk being carried around due to earlier bribes?

If the same had happened to Arjun, even the 124 existing ones would have been recalled!!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Mar 2012 13:47

According to VKS they hadnt setup MRO facilities in India for the earlier tranche. IA being IA would have done jugaad and cannibalised some for spares. Not setting up MRO is a clever way to milk more from the system via new maintenance contracts

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 13:53

Now for the first time, we have something from Gen retd Deepak Kapoor. Even though it is almost nothing.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 232946.ece

Even without any direct allegation against him he chose to say this.

On the statement of Gen Singh, former Army chief Deepak Kapoor said, “It is below my dignity to comment on the allegation.”

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 14:10

I can only wonder at the power, social media gives to the lay man. It is an effective force multiplier for the law enforcers also, if used properly. And for conventional media it is either the boon or the doom, one has to see.

Here is the details of TATRA and its largest holding company M/s Vectra Group headed by Mr Ravi Rishi.

http://www.vectragroup.com/gc_tatra.asp

As VKS says in his interview to "Chauthi Duniya' linked above, TATRA trucks procured by the Army were still manufactured in Czech republic and BEML stickered in India.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 26 Mar 2012 14:26

The person who offered the bribe Lt.Gen.Tejinder Singh was the chief of the DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency. I am shivering to even contemplate what else he offered to sell and to whom. Forget the Trucks!

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 26 Mar 2012 15:32

Firstly, it is an allegation. Let's see what the CBI comes up with but the CBI being the CKongress BI, how much can it be trusted?

In the meanwhile,..

IA has no alternative to the TATRA in quick time. It forms the platform of our land based strategic missile delivery system.

EME chaps I know have always spoken highly of the TATRA.Maybe, I know the wrong EME people.

The bribe allegation while shocking should hardly come as a surprise. VKS allegation that the person offering the bribe said people before you have taken money and people after you will take money is absolutely brazen. There is no fear of repercussions.

Corruption is no longer a hidden phenomena, it is mainstream across all levels of society. Marriage alliances are being decided not based on salary but on the bribe earning potential. Youngsters (both male and female) are openly discussing this in colleges and addas .There is absolutely no stigma attached to giving or taking bribes.

You should stand at Godolia crossing in varanasi and see the policeman take a Rs.5 bribe from all commercial vehicles (even cycle rickshaw's loaded with farm produce). In broad daylight, in full view of every one and without any shame. This is at the lowest level of the law and order hierarchy. Well,just work your way from there.

Moral and ethical values are rarely visible today. We have an abundance of spirituality and ritualism (don't point feet towards people, take off shoes when entering house or temple which all follow, respect elders etc) but little of morality and ethics in society.

Current, moral values are restricted to lectures on women's dresses and behaviour. We will respect a bribe taker and giver who dresses conservatively but show contempt for a honest person who dresses in a sleeveless western dress or wears a bikini. That's the current moral benchmark.Corruption and honesty are no longer part of our acceptable moral fabric.

India is shining but [in a uniquely Indian way] without the gloss (TM).

Yatha Praaja, tahta Raja.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Mar 2012 15:48

Good to see VKS hitting at the underbelly of corruption as he goes. During the DoB issue, the scums had gone all lengths to malign him.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 26 Mar 2012 15:51

rahulm wrote: Moral and ethical values are rarely visible today. We have an abundance of spirituality and ritualism (don't point feet towards people, take off shoes when entering house or temple which all follow, respect elders etc) but little of morality and ethics in society.

Current, moral values are restricted to lectures on women's dresses and behaviour. We will respect a bribe taker and giver who dresses conservatively but show contempt for a honest person who dresses in a sleeveless western dress or wears a bikini. That's the current moral benchmark.Corruption and honesty are no longer part of our acceptable moral fabric.

India is shining but [in a uniquely Indian way] without the gloss (TM).

Yatha Praaja, tahta Raja.

+1 to that!

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 16:00

The 14 crore on offer to the COAS would understandably be a portion of the larger pie. Here is how the scam worked...
(old report)
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ex ... am_1568123

Since BEML doesn’t have the know-how to manufacture these trucks even 14 years after the deal was first struck, it sources components from Tatra Sipox (UK) and uses them for assembling the trucks.

Shame. Mahindra or Tata or whoever, should take this opportunity wih panache.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 26 Mar 2012 16:15

sum wrote:^^ Damn, VKS mentions that the Tatra trucks offered were sub-standard!!!

And we have atleast 5K of them in inventory....wonder how many of them are just junk being carried around due to earlier bribes?

If the same had happened to Arjun, even the 124 existing ones would have been recalled!!

Anybody has any idea what exactly is Sub-standard ? Are they not performing to their fullest potential or are spare parts faulty or there is a problem with the design ? I read Nelson's post about the scam.So is the problem about screw driver technology or bad performance.Also slightly OT have Tatra trucks been converted into right hand drives ?

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 26 Mar 2012 16:19

After all these years, BEML has not converted TATRA trucks into right hand vehicles.

Private CV and car manufacturers are doing this very easily. For some reason it's very hard for BEML.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 16:38

aniket wrote: Anybody has any idea what exactly is Sub-standard ? Are they not performing to their fullest potential or are spare parts faulty or there is a problem with the design ? I read Nelson's post about the scam.So is the problem about screw driver technology or bad performance.Also slightly OT have Tatra trucks been converted into right hand drives ?

Gen VKS has listed three points

1) The route of the acquisition is Manufacturer --> Middleman --> BEML --> Army

this highly circuitous route is primarily to make money by unnecessary transactions and push the cost up

2) No overhaul/BRD system of the trucks in India, or a robust local support network.

3) Indiginination to improve and lower cost.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Mar 2012 18:06

Venu wrote: Yatha Praaja, tahta Raja.

+1 to that!

That distortion of the original proverb is much favoured by the sleaze-ridden, but sociologists tend to agree with the original.

There are many case studies of societies cleaning up rapidly once they get leadership that actually wants to get rid of graft.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 26 Mar 2012 18:20

Usually you use sub-standard for products which are not on par as agreed. Maybe, it could mean the standard is poor compared to the money paid?

Finally something worthful to discuss about?

>>1) The route of the acquisition is Manufacturer --> Middleman --> BEML --> Army

You can take anything from fighter jets to subs, this is the case for many systems, at least sub-systems that are supplied to Indian forces. So I think, this won't result is declaring the product as sub-standard.

>>2) No overhaul/BRD system of the trucks in India, or a robust local support network.

But you won't refer this lack of local support as sub-standard. He is really NOT forthcoming. May be from security point of view he is not willing to divulge more on this perhaps?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2012 18:36

^^^ Kanson, only adding what I heard on the interview for those who may not have. I am not adding my own thoughts or speculations.

So yes, if we go beyond what the Gen VKS said, yes possibly he is holding on to more, he has hinted as much.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 26 Mar 2012 18:40

I apologize in advance if this is not appropriate but I thought it might be worth sharing.

I picked this of TOI comment section written by a user identifying himself as "col a gautam (noida) " It stands out from other comments as something written by a pro and not the usual ToI posters.

it needs courage to disclose some thing of this magnitude. we must respect the courage rather than start suspecting timing and purpose and all that bull sht. as an army officer I salute Gen singh to have finally gathered courage to speak out abt this rotten system . This beautiful organisation has been thrown to dogs after Gen Roychoudhary took over the final nail in the coffin was put by JJ Singh, most corrupt gen army could see. Now his protege likely to takeover. Anyone who has done a tenure in south block knows the TWO famous lobbies, all transactions fall within the purview of one of them. All appointments from PP, procurement, Ordnance to DGQA are controlled by them. Its a huge network and very closely related cong brass. BJP only draws its share once matter goes to PPC. All are taken care of. NO one should show any surprise in such revelations, it is just tip of the iceberg. Only TWO things are sacred in INDIA- Army & Cricket and believe me these two are biggest earner of Black money for big bigs stashed abroad. Challenge me if some one can?

What are the abbreviations I underlined?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 26 Mar 2012 18:52

DGQA - Directorate General of Quality Assurance
PPC - Production–possibility curve

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Mar 2012 18:56

nelson wrote:Now for the first time, we have something from Gen retd Deepak Kapoor. Even though it is almost nothing.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 232946.ece

Even without any direct allegation against him he chose to say this.

On the statement of Gen Singh, former Army chief Deepak Kapoor said, “It is below my dignity to comment on the allegation.”

He could have at least chosen to distance himself from his MS Lt General Avdesh Prakash. He has not yet done it, has he?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 26 Mar 2012 18:59

Pranav wrote:
Venu wrote: Yatha Praaja, tahta Raja.

+1 to that!
That distortion of the original proverb is much favoured by the sleaze-ridden, but sociologists tend to agree with the original.

There are many case studies of societies cleaning up rapidly once they get leadership that actually wants to get rid of graft.

+108 to that!

The distorted proverb is generally used by the leaders and their media lackeys to escape the accountability. Blaming the people(who are actually the victims) is the easiest way out.

It is common sense that the leadership can use reward and punishment to make the desired changes within an organization or country. Several powers and tools are available to them for the purpose. But, they use these powers and tools to keep the people subjugated and to carry on with the corruption.

Top down approach to corruption is the proper solution. While, bottom up approach(where the people have to force the reforms on unwilling leaders) may work, it will take too long a time. What can be accomplished by a determined and clean leader in decades will take centuries for the common people to achieve. Top down reforms are focused, swift, methodical and persuasive. While, bottom Up reforms are slow, divergent, and unplanned. How the leader gets to power is quite relevant here. Whether its democracy or monarchy, does not matter. The simple point is, regardless of the system, the leaders(at the top) are expected to govern the country appropriately. Any national(or social) accomplishments are their achievements and any national(or social) mistakes are their responsibility. The buck stops with them...

Basically, there are 2 issues here:
a) corrupt system.
b) corrupt leaders.

Both reinforce and protect each other. Corrupt leaders perpetuate corrupt system and corrupt system encourages corrupt leaders(and discourages clean leaders). Its a vicious cycle. The common people are expected to fight the corrupt system and the corrupt leaders.

The thinking behind the distorted proverb is: politicians are obviously bad, you can't expect anything better from them. It is the people who vote for these people who should know better.

But, what is ignored in this thinking is that most of the time people have hardly better viable choices. The system is designed in such a way that people are forced to choose the 'lesser evil'.

It is like saying: Obviously the goon is bound to rob. There is no point blaming him. Why did you go to the place where you know he does the robbing?

But the victim answers: But, that region lies in my path to market/school/well. There is no other path. I have no other option but to pass through the region where that goon robs.

------------
One can understand why some people buy this argument. The aam aadmi is told that once he accepts the responsibility, then he can rectify the system(because he has just accepted that he is responsible for the problem in the system).

But, this is flawed logic. Just because someone accepts responsibility, does not mean they have the power to rectify things. More importantly, responsibility should be fixed on those who are elected to do the job but failed to do it.

Reddy · Post by **Reddy** » 26 Mar 2012 19:06

Altair wrote:The person who offered the bribe Lt.Gen.Tejinder Singh was the chief of the DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency. I am shivering to even contemplate what else he offered to sell and to whom. Forget the Trucks!

The sad thing is, the bribes are usually very tempting and very hard to refuse. During early stage of my career i was in govt lab and was part of a team that prepared rfp (not defence related). The good thing is, all the shortlisted candidates invariably meet the minimum requirements. So, no matter which is finally bought it does not in any way degrade the function or purpose it was bought for. The bad thing is, this promotes chaltahi attitude. Meaning, the decision maker can easily talk him/her self out of guilt.

I have met few people from my organisation in delhi who were definitely living beyond their means. There was very good possibility that they did not get all this from legal means but, i don't think they will sell their country to get it. Meaning, even crooks have some rules… like you don't sink a boat you are in. Thankfully, there are still quite a few with integrity who are keeping these guys in check.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 26 Mar 2012 19:08

chackojoseph wrote:Good to see VKS hitting at the underbelly of corruption as he goes. During the DoB issue, the scums had gone all lengths to malign him.

I agree. I think, what he is saying is that the system is quite corrupt. In such a system, it takes a great courage, regardless of the motivation, to publicly reveal such truth.

The immediate reaction by the guilty, generally, is to malign the revealer(by casting aspersions on his motivations, timing, ...etc). And generally, the common people fall for that trick.

Hope that does not happen...

peter · Post by **peter** » 26 Mar 2012 19:45

johneeG wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Good to see VKS hitting at the underbelly of corruption as he goes. During the DoB issue, the scums had gone all lengths to malign him.
I agree. I think, what he is saying is that the system is quite corrupt. In such a system, it takes a great courage, regardless of the motivation, to publicly reveal such truth.

The immediate reaction by the guilty, generally, is to malign the revealer(by casting aspersions on his motivations, timing, ...etc). And generally, the common people fall for that trick.

Hope that does not happen...

Happening already! Congress is slamming General Singh:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 416599.cms

"It is really unfortunate. Being a government official and head of the Indian Army, he should have registered an FIR if someone came to him and offered a bribe," said Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari.

Though Brigadier Ramaswamy has this to say: http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 31048.aspx

Brigadier Ramaswamy (retired)

The solution is simple. If the Army and the Govt. believe their officers are honest, the CBI should follow one easy rule - just investigate the number of houses/property of the previous three of each - Army chiefs, Quarter Master General (QMG), director generals of Army Ordnance corps, Army Service Corps. This alone will bring out thousands of skeletons from the closet, I guarantee you. There is no need for further investigation - they will all 20 generals speak the truth - who took how much.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 26 Mar 2012 19:52

peter wrote:Happening already! Congress is slamming General Singh:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 416599.cms
"It is really unfortunate. Being a government official and head of the Indian Army, he should have registered an FIR if someone came to him and offered a bribe," said Congress spokesperson Manish Tewari.

Manish Tiwari and Digvijay Singh are the residuals left from Anna Hazare campaign. These both along with P Chidambaram and Kapil Sibal will bury any honest man alive.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Mar 2012 19:56

Nikhil T wrote: . Now it gives out an impression that the grapes are sour and that Gen VKS wouldn't have said this, had he been allowed to serve until 2013. [I'm not judging here]. So the public is now treating this as no different from "your word v/s the other guy's word".

How do you know how public is taking it? Corruption in army is not unheard and recent spate of corruption by CON party and its goons have cemented the impression of rampant corruption in public life. In fact coming from a person of such credibility would lend its weight to such statements only.

And it is not a case of sour grapes. He said his age issue was not about tenure. So he was prepared to go. His age controversy was engineered to achieve whatever goal was set by ....

Unfortunately BS has to bear the burden of proof. That is unintended consequence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2012 20:42

Let it play out. Please dont cast aspersions on those who bring up issues.

VKS did inform AKA and the latter has ordered a CBI inquiry.

COI doesn't work as the accused is a retired officer.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 26 Mar 2012 21:02

Arun Roperia wrote:I apologize in advance if this is not appropriate but I thought it might be worth sharing.

I picked this of TOI comment section written by a user identifying himself as "col a gautam (noida) " It stands out from other comments as something written by a pro and not the usual ToI posters.

it needs courage to disclose some thing of this magnitude. we must respect the courage rather than start suspecting timing and purpose and all that bull sht. as an army officer I salute Gen singh to have finally gathered courage to speak out abt this rotten system . This beautiful organisation has been thrown to dogs after Gen Roychoudhary took over the final nail in the coffin was put by JJ Singh, most corrupt gen army could see. Now his protege likely to takeover. Anyone who has done a tenure in south block knows the TWO famous lobbies, all transactions fall within the purview of one of them. All appointments from PP, procurement, Ordnance to DGQA are controlled by them. Its a huge network and very closely related cong brass. BJP only draws its share once matter goes to PPC. All are taken care of. NO one should show any surprise in such revelations, it is just tip of the iceberg. Only TWO things are sacred in INDIA- Army & Cricket and believe me these two are biggest earner of Black money for big bigs stashed abroad. Challenge me if some one can?
What are the abbreviations I underlined?

PP - Perspective Planning
DGQA - Directorate General Quality Assurance
PPC - Production Planing and Control (not sure)

The author of the comment is probably explaining the share of wannabees in the chain, from

PP->Procurement -> Manufacture -> Quality Assurance

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Mar 2012 21:34

The problem is, the usual response of the MoD and CBI to any allegations whether true or false is to blacklist the manufacturer in question then carry out a std. government inquiry which is meant to find nothing and prosecute no one. Tatra getting blacklisted might have severe consequences for the IA, something which Gen. VKS obviously wouldn't have intended when he brought this up.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 26 Mar 2012 21:59

Army Chief's full interview on TimesNow within 5 mins