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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 12:58 
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^^^ It's probably above his grade level....even if he quit, it is like a cycle spoke, there will be somebody else to replace. He is probably doing the best he can given the circumstances. Best thing for people to bring about change is to start with small items/periphery; if you attack the center, you are toast.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:10 
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We had some economic reforms in early nineties (and that too under IMF pressure) as a result of which we are getting by (at least not defaulting on loan payments etc). Otherwise the state of affairs in the country is pretty bad and governance is almost non existent.

I hope such news continues to come out, so that the population gets out of the delusion it has been living in, because we certainly can't expect the corrupt and the anti nationals to be put in jail (as 2g and commonwealth scams have shown)

But why blame the netas and babus - I mean most of the voters vote for their candidates based on cast (even if that neta happens to be a full fledged criminal).

What do you expect when lok sabha is the place in the country where you would find the highest concentration of criminals ( barring jails) - I mean are these criiminals voted in with the expectation that they will provide clean and good governance?


Last edited by Dhiman on 07 Apr 2012 13:27, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:24 
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peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:

As someone said, the entire object of these attacks are directed at AKA.

As usual this is your highly biased POV. Why would Antony sit on and do nothing about Ghulam Nabi Azad's 2009 letter pointing out TATRA's loot of the country and then General VKS's disclosure of attempted bribe for the same TATRA trucks in 2010?

IMHO Josy Joseph's piece follows exactly what you have been writing here in the last few days and there is just no logic to it.

If Antony was this great corruption buster why did he take no action against Tatra?

Or if he did take action against Tatra on Azad's letter, as some in your camp might think/claim, why did he ask General VKS to "act on" the complaint himself in 2010?

It is very clear that Antony heard about the Tatra corruption multiple times from 2009 and did nothing.

How this leaves him honest and his followers claims that he is honest is beyond imagination.


I have time and again repeated here. You have a vested interest. You do not read posts and replies. You keep asking same questions again and again and again. You do not even believe VKS words but ue them when it suits you. You do not know what actions have been taken by AKA on Azad's letter, even though it has been said for more than a week.

Anyone who writes against AKA is gospel for you, Anyone who writes for AKA is indoctrinated.

AKA is honest and there are no "camps" here.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:32 
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chackojoseph wrote:
AKA is honest and there are no "camps" here.


Maybe, but that is so old fashioned these days. I mean honest people have been living among the corrupt for ages now while keeping their eyes and ears shut - perfectly useless way to live. At least the corrupt is making money.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:33 
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ramana wrote:
Its PC running the campaign. All allegations come from MHA ass ets. He doesnt want any alternates.


ramana,

Take a guess who could be the next 'soft spoken honest' PM vs hope fulls.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:38 
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peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:

As someone said, the entire object of these attacks are directed at AKA.

As usual this is your highly biased POV. Why would Antony sit on and do nothing about Ghulam Nabi Azad's 2009 letter pointing out TATRA's loot of the country and then General VKS's disclosure of attempted bribe for the same TATRA trucks in 2010?

IMHO Josy Joseph's piece follows exactly what you have been writing here in the last few days and there is just no logic to it.

If Antony was this great corruption buster why did he take no action against Tatra?

Or if he did take action against Tatra on Azad's letter, as some in your camp might think/claim, why did he ask General VKS to "act on" the complaint himself in 2010?

It is very clear that Antony heard about the Tatra corruption multiple times from 2009 and did nothing.

How this leaves him honest and his followers claims that he is honest is beyond imagination.


Chacko's words:
chackojoseph wrote:
You do not know what actions have been taken by AKA on Azad's letter, even though it has been said for more than a week.


Antony's own words in 2012 (From: http://www.rediff.com/news/column/who-is-responsible-for-embarrassments-facing-govt/20120328.htm
Quote:
The defence minister also accepted that he held his head in his hands in utter bewilderment when the COAS told him as much.


Does a man who "held his head in his hands in utter bewilderment" in 2010 when General VKS apprised him of the bribe seem capable to have ordered "action" on Ghulam Nabi's letter of 2009 as Chacko wants us to believe?

Nah.

So whom do you believe? Chacko camps gospel or Antony?


Last edited by peter on 07 Apr 2012 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:40 
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Dhiman wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:
AKA is honest and there are no "camps" here.


Maybe, but that is so old fashioned these days. I mean honest people have been living among the corrupt for ages now while keeping their eyes and ears shut - perfectly useless way to live. At least the corrupt is making money.


Well question is if you have your head in the sand does that make you less or more culpable?

Was Dhritrasthra at fault or not?


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:45 
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Dhiman wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:
AKA is honest and there are no "camps" here.


Maybe, but that is so old fashioned these days. I mean honest people have been living among the corrupt for ages now while keeping their eyes and ears shut - perfectly useless way to live. At least the corrupt is making money.


No, he doesn't. All sorts of face savings are being used my media and this is one of them.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 13:51 
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Quote:
peter wrote:
As usual this is your highly biased POV. Why would Antony sit on and do nothing about Ghulam Nabi Azad's 2009 letter pointing out TATRA's loot of the country and then General VKS's disclosure of attempted bribe for the same TATRA trucks in 2010?

IMHO Josy Joseph's piece follows exactly what you have been writing here in the last few days and there is just no logic to it.

If Antony was this great corruption buster why did he take no action against Tatra?

Or if he did take action against Tatra on Azad's letter, as some in your camp might think/claim, why did he ask General VKS to "act on" the complaint himself in 2010?

It is very clear that Antony heard....

Does a man who "held his head in his hands in utter bewilderment" in 2010 when General VKS apprised him of the bribe seem capable to have ordered "action" on Ghulam Nabi's letter of 2009 as Chacko wants us to believe?

Nah.

So whom do you believe? Chacko camps gospel or Antony?


Hahahha. Clear your browser cache. IMHO, you are reading from a week old cache. Or atleast, clear your mind's cache. As I said, you have vested interest.

Also, the Josy Joseph article is by lined by "Rajat Pandit".


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 14:21 
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chackojoseph wrote:
peter wrote:
As usual this is your highly biased POV. Why would Antony sit on and do nothing about Ghulam Nabi Azad's 2009 letter pointing out TATRA's loot of the country and then General VKS's disclosure of attempted bribe for the same TATRA trucks in 2010?

IMHO Josy Joseph's piece follows exactly what you have been writing here in the last few days and there is just no logic to it.

If Antony was this great corruption buster why did he take no action against Tatra?

Or if he did take action against Tatra on Azad's letter, as some in your camp might think/claim, why did he ask General VKS to "act on" the complaint himself in 2010?

It is very clear that Antony heard....

Does a man who "held his head in his hands in utter bewilderment" in 2010 when General VKS apprised him of the bribe seem capable to have ordered "action" on Ghulam Nabi's letter of 2009 as Chacko wants us to believe?

Nah.

So whom do you believe? Chacko camps gospel or Antony?


Hahahha. Clear your browser cache. IMHO, you are reading from a week old cache. Or atleast, clear your mind's cache. As I said, you have vested interest.

Also, the Josy Joseph article is by lined by "Rajat Pandit".


Are you suggesting that the rediff article, since it belongs to week old cache, somehow does'nt correctly portray Antony's comments about holding his head in his hands?

You never answer anything and I honestly don't think you can because you have already made up your mind though fact is Josy and you are a cosy group. Highlighting a Pandit in the mix serves a purpose I am sure.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 14:26 
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peter wrote:
You never answer anything and I honestly don't think you can because you have already made up your mind though fact is Josy and you are a cosy group. Highlighting a Pandit in the mix serves a purpose I am sure.


Whats the point. You never read anything written. I have repeatedly said that, but you have not read that.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 17:36 
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chackojoseph wrote:
peter wrote:
You never answer anything and I honestly don't think you can because you have already made up your mind though fact is Josy and you are a cosy group. Highlighting a Pandit in the mix serves a purpose I am sure.


Whats the point. You never read anything written. I have repeatedly said that, but you have not read that.


The point is you can't answer a direct question. Take this current debate. You skirted the direct question, yet again, by saying rediff is a week old cache. Though whatever is written on rediff about Antony is from Antony's mouth!

Just to prove me wrong or yourself right why don't you indulge us and tell us what action did Antony take on Azad's letter and why he clutched his head when VKS broached the bribe issue with him?

It is a direct question!!!


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 18:13 
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The Azad's letter and the action has been discussed a page or two and another back. Why don't you read those? So, why the need for this direct question?

Why He clutched his head, why Josy joseph wrote that etc are the questions you should ask them. I am not their spokesman.


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 18:26 
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Revealed: The real story behind CBI's Tatra probe

Quote:
Picking my steps carefully through the debris of Tatragate, there seem to be a couple of areas where there is lack of informed opinion and a third where there is a lot of misinformation.

Specifically, who was in charge when the Tatra deal was struck, how did the CBI get on Ravi Rishi's track with such impressive speed, and where do matters now stand between the Union defence minister and the chief of the the army staff?

The answer to the first question is that the Tatra agreement was signed in the Rajiv Gandhi era. What is more, it might have happened at a time when the then prime minister was simultaneously holding the defence portfolio.

To go back a quarter of a century in time, V P Singh was abruptly shunted out, for whatever reason, from the finance ministry in January 1987, and thrust into the defence ministry. He lasted barely two-and-a-half months in his new post, resigning -- or being forced to resign -- in April 1987.

In a delicious irony, the reason was that he had, reportedly without keeping Rajiv Gandhi in the loop, ordered an investigation into the purchase of HDW submarines from Germany . This was resented by the Congress -- then still called the 'Congress (Indira)' -- because the investigation seemingly called Indira Gandhi to account; the agreement was signed in 1981 when the Congress matriarch ruled India .

Be that as it may, Rajiv Gandhi then took over the defence ministry temporarily. It was a masterpiece of poor timing; literally days after V P Singh's leaving, a Swedish radio station broke the news of the Bofors scandal, and Rajiv Gandhi's image never recovered.

Speaking of Bofors, during the heyday of the scandal one of the Congress's chief talking points was that Rajiv Gandhi had taken the initiative to bar middlemen from anything related to defence procurement. Remember this point, it is important.

Twenty-five years ago a defence minister known as 'Mr Clean' got into trouble for probing a deal that was struck by a previous government, one in which the prime minister was an iconic figure in the Congress. Was it Mark Twain that said, 'History does not repeat itself but it does rhyme'?

We must now come to the second issue, the alacrity with which the CBI is pursuing Tatragate.

Some reports suggest this happened because of General V K Singh's interview by The Hindu. This is wrong.


Some others say the credit should go to Dr Hanumanthappa, a Congress MP from Karnataka , who wrote to several people, intimating that something was wrong with the Tatra deal. This too is wrong.

However, we should look a little into the Hanumanthappa episode. In 2009 Dr Hanumanthappa complained about alleged misdoings in the public sector undertaking Bharat Earth Movers Ltd [ Get Quote ], BEML. It is not quite clear how Hanumanthappa got to hear, but BEML is based in Bengaluru , and Hanumanthappa himself has trade union links of old, so the workers at BEML might have let something slip.

Hanumanthappa complained that the Tatra trucks were not being purchased from the original manufacturer, but through intermediaries, who included Bharat Earth Movers Ltd and Vectra (in London ). This violates the defence procurement rules quoted so often and so loudly by the Congress in the Bofors era.

I am not sure if any recipient got the message. Hanumanthappa spent several pages in general complaints before coming to the central point in, I think, the fourth paragraph of the fifth page (or something like that).

Hanumanthappa's letter reached Sonia Gandhi , who, rather peculiarly, handed it to Ghulam Nabi Azad . (The Congress's rationale is that he is the Congress functionary in charge of party affairs in Karnataka, but a defence deal is scarcely a party issue.) At any rate, in October 2009 the letter found its way into A K Antony's office.

The defence minister did not ignore the letter, and asked for the matter to be probed. But A K Antony then made a mistake, he did not pursue the matter, something that he himself would openly admit as an error. (As far as I know, Hanumanthappa has still not received a proper response!)

How do you forget allegations of a multi-crore deal? The fact is that A K Antony's office receives something like ten letters a week, all alleging corruption. That works out to better than an allegation a day on average, holidays included.

But if it was neither General V K Singh's interview nor the Hanumanthappa letter that did the trick, what stirred the CBI into action?

Very simply, the CBI, like the tax authorities, looks into matters if it receives 'credible evidence'. This was one of those cases, and behind the scenes the investigators built their case without any fuss. And on February 21, 2012, if I have the date correct, the minister gave the sanction to prosecute.

Please note the date, it was about five weeks before General V K Singh's explosive interview. Note too that the sanction was given not just to 'investigate' but to 'prosecute'.


So, why did the CBI wait to go after Ravi Rishi, the man behind Vectra?

It has been wrongly reported in the media that Ravi Rishi is an 'NRI', a 'Non-Resident Indian'. The fact is that he is not an Indian at all, but a citizen of the United Kingdom. You could describe him as a 'PIO', a 'Person of Indian Origin', but he is not an 'NRI'. And trying to extradite a British citizen from Great Britain is difficult at the best of times.

But the CBI also knew that 'Defexpo 2012' was scheduled to start on March 29. India is one of the world's largest defence equipment importers, and it was extremely unlikely that any manufacturer would refuse to visit.

Sensibly, the CBI waited a few days until Ravi Rishi was in India, and available for questioning. That is how it reacted with such speed -- because it was already on the case.

How about the news items saying that the defence minister ordered a probe only after General Singh's interview? That investigation concerns only the specific allegation of bribery brought out in the chief of the army staff's interview, the CBI was already probing Tatragate.


This brings up the last topic -- the one that seems to interest the chatterboxes in Delhi the most -- namely how A K Antony and V K Singh get along.

The defence minister and the chief of the army staff are never going to be mistaken for bosom buddies, but they both have great respect for each other. Each sincerely believes in the other man's integrity, and also that the man across the table wants to do well by India. In other words, the foundation for a healthy professional relationship has always existed -- and continues to exist.

Frankly, this third issue is, at least to me, rather a banal topic. It is, one suspects, a smokescreen to divert attention from the mechanics of the Tatra deal, particularly how and why intermediaries were used when middlemen are barred from defence procurement matters.

But 'A K Antony vs V K Singh' makes the better headline, and there shall probably be more such 'diversions' to come courtesy of 'rogue elements'!



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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 21:06 
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We have an Army Chief who is outstanding. These sort of gentlemen come along maybe once a generation.(Admiral Bhagat said something on these lines a few days back)

By some fluke we also have a defence minister who is not lining his pockets. Between these 2 indivudals they have got
the arms dealers on the backfoot. Anthony is good,( he is far from perfect,)
If replaced, his replacement will most probably be a lot worse.(R.Choudhary maybe?)
If this duo could have been in place one more year , without internal rifts, the mindset in the minisrty might have changed.
The cartel knew this and they have won the battle, The Army chief is going one year earlier,With all the hoola goola Anthony might be moved too.

Yes (partly) because of Anthony we have lost out on some important ones, 155/guns, training aircraft,to name a few.
However the new deals being signed seem to be squeeky clean. Remember Anthony is a politician he has to look after the khoorsi,
he has to hold his head in his hands ,because he does not have control over the allegations made by the chief. He knows about them too, but politically is helpless.
He wants to be squeeky clean personally, and squeek into the presidents office ,so no ripples.
Chacko is a journilist his bread and butter is getting access to people. If he were to get too candid his sources would dry up.So cut him some slack. We arm chair generals are a tough bunch.


Last edited by Eric Leiderman on 07 Apr 2012 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 21:08 
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Location: havildar-major, 1st JSOC munna detachment.
on another note The Week magazine says Pranabda is leading INC choice to be next president so they have a cool player in the seat to "manage the results of the 2014 elections"


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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2012 22:47 
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Food for thought.
Link

Antony possibly being targeted by Arms lobbies.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 02:53 
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Now we're talking! Congress has always chosen their short term benefits over the disastrous consequences this country has had to face because of their communal politics.

PIL alleges communal angle to Army chief General VK Singh's age row

Quote:
NEW DELHI: The row over the affairs of the Army and its equations with the government continues to turn murkier, with a PIL in the Supreme Court alleging a "communal conspiracy behind" the rejection of Army chief General VK Singh's claim for revision of his date of birth.

The PIL, filed by retired Navy chief L Ramdas, former chief election commissioner N Gopalaswami, three senior former Army officials and others, say that ex-Army chief JJ Singh, currently the governor of Arunchal Pradesh, masterminded " Operation Moses" to clear the way for Lt Gen Bikram Singh to succeed Gen VK Singh.

The PIL challenging Lt Gen Bikram Singh's appointment, which has been submitted to the SC registry, has said the Arunachal governor enjoyed blessings from the highest level, and that was why the conspiracy against Gen VK Singh succeeded even when he enjoyed the sympathies of defence minister AK Antony.
...
Bikram Singh, who is the Army chief-designate, would not have taken the top rank in the force if the incumbent's plea for the revision of his age had been accepted: something that would have extended Gen VK Singh's tenure to May 31, 2013.

The damning charges in the PIL, including the alleged communal dimension of the "plot" to deny VK Singh an extended tenure, were confirmed by petitioner's counsel, senior lawyer Kamini Jaiswal. "It is unfortunate yet true that the present day politicians have succeeded in dividing all institutions on communal lines. The PIL has placed facts before the court and it is for the court to arrive at a conclusion and save the country," Jaiswal said.

The disclosure of the sensational charge followed the stunning allegation by VK Singh that "rogue elements in bureaucracy" concocted an impression of muscle flexing by his supporters to drive a wedge between him and the government. Explaining why a routine exercise was painted as a coercive attempt to force government's hands, the Army chief even went on to refer to a newspaper report that had blamed an unnamed Union minister of orchestrating the impression of a crisis: a first for a serving chief.

The petition arguing for scrapping Bikram Singh's appointment as chief of Army staff, harps on the role of someone at the top in determining the line of succession that favored the chief-designate. It says that there were "constant references to orders from above", while Antony would acknowledge that his hands were tied.

The petitioners claim that there were "constant reference to 'orders from above'" remains baffling. "Gen JJ Singh, despite being the chief architect of the 'line of succession', was the Arunachal governor with no direct authority over the defence minister," the PIL says, when discussing how this particular decision ensure Bikram Singh becomes the Army chief.

"Orders from above virtually gave the bureaucrats in the ministry licence to flex muscle; a series of selected leaks began to paint Gen V K Singh as a conniving officer who was desperate to gain an additional 10 months in office, either by hook or by crook," allege the petitioners.

They claim that Antony "repeatedly let it be known that though he sympathized with General VK Singh, his 'hands were tied' in the matter and that the pre-determined line of succession had to be maintained at all costs."

The petitioners have alleged Bikram Singh is facing a case in the J&K high court in an alleged case of fake encounter and that his lack of control over Indian peacekeeping force in Congo when the sex scandal broke out is still under probe, claiming that his appointment should not be approved on the same ground on which PJ Thomas was removed as the CVC.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 03:09 
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Now, Panag alleges racket in procurement for Siachen


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 07:59 
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Be very careful about Ramdas. He will be there wherever there are Pakis. In every Bappi-Jappi meet of Pakis and Pseudos this person is there.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 08:12 
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Ramdas may be a.hole but the contents of the PIL are bang on the target.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 10:41 
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Karan Thapar demolishes Shekhar Gupta's fantastical "scoop"
No surprises here
Quote:
Second, the story relies on slender, if not improbable, detail. How can the movement of two units, totalling at the most 1,400 soldiers, presage a coup? By some counts there are already 10,000 soldiers in and around Delhi. If General VK Singh was planning one, he had enough manpower at hand. He didn't need this insignificant addition.

Third, the story hinges on an order that does not exist. It asks: "Why was the well-set protocol, that any military movement, at any time, in the NCR (National Capital Region) has to be pre-notified to MoD (Ministry of Defence) not followed?" It's the alleged violation of this order that is the clinching suggestion of mischief. But as a former chief, a former Director General Military Operations (DGMO) and a former defence secretary have confirmed - and the present defence secretary, too - there is no such order. So, it follows, there was no violation of it. Hence, no mischief.

Fourth, it relies on certain 'facts' to convince you that the government panicked. It says the defence minister was alerted late at night, the PM "at the crack of dawn" and the defence secretary asked to cut short his visit to Malaysia and, on return, "opened his office late at night" and asked the DGMO for an explanation. We have no proof of this. We simply have to accept it.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 10:44 
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This is new low in life of army set everyday.....

Congress with dirty tricks


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 10:57 
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Cancelling Eurocopter deal got AK Antony enemies

This with Tatra are Vectra deals. This is the most likely reason why could TS have tried the dirty tricks. Both are army deals and AKA and VKS were at helm. Twice I said in the dabate that the army tender was cancelled and Vectra had a serving army personnel inside.

I had said that VKS statement was not for AKA, but for TS.

The bribe offer, the news of Army vs MoD, statements that "AKA is ignoring the corruption deals," Coup etc were for discrediting AKA. Very calculated move as any corruption slur will lead to resignation.

The 14 cr Rupees bribe offer to VKS was most probably a trap. I gave you a rough calculation few posts before. It was estimated that Rs 14 cr was nearly 10 - 11 % of the likely profit. As the figures are just "estimation," truth may not be far. While opinions will differ, as a business man, i don't think that this will be actually paid and is more likely a trap.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 11:03 
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Dilbu wrote:
Karan Thapar demolishes Shekhar Gupta's fantastical "scoop"
No surprises here
Quote:
Second, the story relies on....ck of dawn" and the defence secretary asked to cut short his visit to Malaysia and, on return, "opened his office late at night" and asked the DGMO for an explanation. We have no proof of this. We simply have to accept it.


Journalist go on various beats. Shekhar Gupta (IE), by the way of his position and relations is on a national policy level of beat. A news organisation might not send an inexperienced or lower leve reporter there. Josy Joseph, Rajat Pandit (ToI) etc are on defence beats (not strictly though).

While journos at policy levels meet PMO, MHA etc, the defence journos are more involved in MoD. Hence you see disjointed and conflicting versions of reporting. You can draw many inferences here,as long as you understand the concept.


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 11:08 
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uddu wrote:
Be very careful about Ramdas. He will be there wherever there are Pakis. In every Bappi-Jappi meet of Pakis and Pseudos this person is there.


^^^
+1


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 11:56 
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Singha wrote:
on another note The Week magazine says Pranabda is leading INC choice to be next president so they have a cool player in the seat to "manage the results of the 2014 elections"


He would easily win the president seat as he has support across all spectrum of politics , under him it seem the defence spending was well and fully used all the time


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 12:18 
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This is more important than the DOB of Gen VKS

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 579114.cms


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2012 22:55 
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RENAME SHEKHAR GUPTA'S SHOW

As is well known, Shekhar Gupta, the compère of WALK THE TALK on NDTV, is a person whose lack of education and absence of any sense of ethics are perfectly counter-balanced by his pretentiousness.

A colleague has just been sent me an article which suggests that an old American phrase from the 1960s and 70s is coming back into use :

BULLSHIT WALKS, MONEY TALKS”

Why not ask the NDTV honchos to rename Gupta's show with this much more appropriate title ?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 03:00 
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Someone may have read too much (into movements of troops): MoS


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 04:09 
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Alien interests dictate Intelligence Bureau agenda

A small group of European countries led by Italy and France “operate a seamless web of diplomat-agents, businessperson-agents, NGO-agents and scholar-agents not just to collect information, but to ensure that a policy matrix gets chosen that would ensure that India or its entities never pose a commercial challenge to them.”

http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... eau-agenda


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 06:47 
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One pooch onlee..did Chinese coup story provide inspiration to the Dupatta, or did Dupatta create the ruckus prior to the Chinese coup rumours? Maybe the Dupatta and his 'sources' take inspiration from the cheeni tamasha in the papers.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 07:03 
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The corruption in defence deals is going on for long time.(so also in other sectors)
lots of beneficiaries are there including the very top in INC.
Huge criminal network enterprise is built with lots of power to make or break a person who is interested in cleaning the system.
VP singh comes to mind in his crusade against former G. However the Gs are mere pawns in the game. they are there to prevent INC minions from raising voice.
The Gs are controlled by the mafia.
Recall that recent Gs are rarely seen in public, rarely talk to media. careful select media personalities who are more or less in cahoots with the criminal mafia portray a very good positive image of G family. this creates a awe and sympathy to the family amongst the populace.This in turn creates a powerful image amongst cong supporters. They do not betray their leader. Rebels are quickly taken care off. They make sure no one gains stature amongst sdres. YSR was accidented so also others like Rajesh pilot and Madhav Scindia. ysr was corrupt to core but popular. The other two were honest and do gooder but also popular. Their sons are licking thesmelves as small party leaders in awe of G. powerless. Jagan is slowly squeezed all over.
It is firmly entrenched in the system.
Hence AKA and MMS unable to curtail any of the corruption.
Likely the mafia saw in VKS a threat to the established network.He was less easy to work with. Hence the controversy of DOB. This would not have risen if VKS accepted the bribes. The criminal network would have allowed him to stay on. Despite knowing the DOB issue VKS fought like Abhimanyu sacrificng himself in the process.

AKA and MMS are in the loop because of their unwavering devotion to the congress. They have been blind to the party to a fault. They have been shafted royally in their backside by the network. Being what they are ,not able to mount a effective fight back. They do not have street power or staying power any longer.
They are no doubt honest with good personal integrity. hence they are inside the govt as it helps mafia with honest men in their midst. They are sort of useless outside the party but great for the mafia inside.
Mafia can manipulate the insides of their offices to their advantage.Sometimes following the rules and procedures scrupulously can be a disadvantage against clever criminals. This is what has stymied the efforts of AKA and MMS. They are not pushers, would not go extra step forward to help punish guilty, but do when it comes to them. procedurally Hence AKA did nothing to help VKS in DOB nor MMS in various scandals with some emanating from PMO office..
As the saying goes the criminals are always one step ahead of the police.(AKA and MMS). Key ministries have been held by these two as these hold the greatest threat to the mafia. Also both are undermined by the very offices they hold.Hence mafia thought they can play around these good men. Blame falls on these two if something goes wrong. Advantage mafia.Also no future VP Singhs to the govt and people.

If both AKA and MMS are smart operators they would have been pulled out of the govt asap long time ago. They are weak personalities with little street power.
(Recall Raja of Manda.later Madhav Rao Scindia/Pilot/YSR accidented).

The only positive things both AKA and MMS have done to us is -- allowing leaks by default and investigating without fear or favor on any side. This is their personalities built over years and nothing to do with their party devotion..
Time has been fortunate that revelations came now to them. They are doing their work.
They are the quintessential party workers---worker ants who do their job irrespective of their position.

Unfortunately for the mafia-- this has turned into some sort of fiasco for now. they are pulling all stops to prevent from threatening their networks.

Time will tell how far these gentlemen will work to the detriment of the mafia.
They will be kicked out if their usefulness to the mafia becomes less than their destructive potential in unravelling them.

Same with Gs. If they cannot control their hordes(cong party workers and supporters), they will be easily undermined.

a new neta with good credentials will be anointed.

SIL seems to be good choice. :mrgreen: as the mafia will have incriminating documents to force his backside.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 09:34 
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RussiaToday report (Youtube video) 'Naked' Indian army triggers weapons buying spree

IBNLive report (Youtube video) Parliament panel to quiz Defence Secretary on preparedness, Army units story


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 10:05 
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From OrBAT:
Quote:
The situation regarding the movements of two army units toward Delhi which started a flap is clearer now, and sadly, it reflects badly on the Ministry of Defense. Though we will admit the MOD had cause. Yet when everyone is being childish and throwing tantrums, someone has to be the adult. What has been missing is the adult.



First, it wasn’t two units, but one: a mechanized infantry battalion sent on a snap training exercise to see how well it performed in dense fog conditions. If you’ve been in the Northwest Indian plains during winter, you’ll be familiar with these terrific fogs. If mobilization were ordered during a fog, if units didn’t know how best to make the move, there would be problems. The battalion was 20th Mechanized Infantry Regiment. The other “unit” was actually some teams from an Agra-based Special Forces battalion.



Inside Delhi itself there are two infantry and one artillery brigades, 10,000 combat troops, and you have a division sitting at Meerut, 65-km away. If you want to impress the government with a show of force, there is no need to send a single battalion from Hissar, 165-km away, or SF detachments from Agra, 200-km away.



A very reliable person we know talked to a senior officer who happened to have commanded the armored division at Hissar. He agreed that the army orders troop movements for training all the time, and no permission is required from the civil authority. BUT, he says, movements are never made toward Delhi, to avoid possible misunderstandings.



On investigation, it turns out that this is not the case. The Army says it moves troops toward, through, and away from the capital all the time and no one is informed nor needs to be. An example is units rotating to different stations – the Indian Army moves its combat and artillery units to different stations every 2-3 years for a number of operational reasons. Since Delhi is major transportation junction for Northwest India, units are moving through all the time. The officer our reliable source spoke to may have been extra cautious and never sent his units toward Delhi for training, but that would be his individual decision which he is entitled to make, it is neither doctrine nor a rule, written or unspoken.



The press told a story of two battalions moving without authorization toward Delhi, so alarming the government that watchers were activated – more on this. The government went to the extent of recalling the Defense Secretary who was on a trip to Malaysia. He returned, met late at night with the Director General Military Operations, demanded explanations, was given them, ordered the movements reversed and the DGMO complied.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 10:23 
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Wonder if this non-coup is a preemptive caution to military not to try anything? Politician-Babu nexus is capable of any stunt. If this so then expect more rottenness from them until VKS retires.


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 10:54 
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Quote:
Going cuckoo 
over the ‘coup’
Bikram Vohra (Perspective)

7 April 2012
If it wasn’t so comical, it would be grand tragedy. Except for embarrassing 1.2 billion Indians and providing gales of mocking laughter for India’s detractors and enemies, real and imagined, the report on the ‘coup’ attempt by what amounts to a possible maximum of 4,000 soldiers from two battalions is farcical.

The Armoured Division is really an all tank affair and the Paras generally leap out of aircraft, so there was no real marching Infantry band of brothers making for the capital.

Since nowhere in history has a failed coup been kept a secret, this is a record breaker. Coups, by their very nature, are do or die exercises. A failed coup, ipso facto, produces traitors and a trail that is extremely easy to follow. You just cannot keep it under a lid or pretend it did not happen. Not for a day, certainly not for months. Those sinister plotters involved don’t sort of say, oh well, let’s go back to barracks, maybe on another night. The moment they are on the move they are committed to hell and back.

If you are going to topple the government, you should have done your homework and have some clue where you are going. That would be the basic tenet. Evidently those who wrote it up as a great journalistic expose had no idea of military strategy or how ops work.

One, they have been unable to pinpoint exactly what the target areas were for these men and when they would fan out. Non-specific marches are hardly dangerous and if they were specific the commanders would have known in advance and yet, not one of them said, hey wait a minute, why am I attacking station x or national edifice y? And each one of them would have known he was being a traitor facing the death penalty by firing squad.

Two, in any military adventurism there have to be concentric circles. If two battalions are moving in, who are their leaders, where are the back ups, how many brigades and divisions in the scattered upcountry cantonments were on alert or moving in and how many senior commanders were part of this ‘devious’ plot. None? Ten? Five? Do we assume that halfway there they just sort of got orders to return home and they trotted back and that was that? Not a word about this sortie, no leak, no chatter, no psssttts, all of this natural manna for army mess conversations. For over two months nothing came out and we are expected to believe such folderol.

Now, let’s get serious, where were the air force and the navy? They were not part of all this? Right, so these 4000 soldiers would have been mystified as they took over various locations in Delhi, assuming they followed orders and captured government strongholds. Where were the reinforcements and look at that dust cloud, those are our own guys come to take us out. By any military strategist’s logic, their ability to hold India’s civil government hostage would have lasted about an hour or two with no escape route or end clause and retaliation almost certain and swift.

Why would they do it? They are not terrorists bent on creating chaos. They have no agenda to cause panic. They do not have an open-ended que sera, sera approach, they intend to take over the country according to reports, a coup is just that...taking command. These are trained soldiers untrained to fire on their own people. If there was even the slightest such pressure on their minds there would have been confusion in minutes and January 16, 2012 would have been a night of rampant chaos in the capital.

We are now told that the civilian administration in an incandescent burst of genius reacted by slowing down traffic into Delhi and checking all cars so as to effectively block the soldiers, this great ring of fire being put up in all of ninety odd minutes. So much for the Patriot Missile system. Roll on floor with mirth here. This trick worked. Sure, it did. Let’s see, 4,000 odd men armed ostensibly to the hilt prepared to take on forces of over 2 million strength and attempting a coup against their country (hardened geese, yes) panicked because the Delhi traffic police were putting up road blocks. Wo, that is scary stuff. Actually, the inside story is that they were told Kiran Bedi was manning (?) the traffic block so they turned back for Agra, their morale shattered by this piece of information. :rotfl:

Wake up, stop hurting yourselves. India is not a Latin American Saturday night let’s take over the Presidential Palace sort of country. It is too disparate, too vast and has nearly a million paramilitary forces besides the three major arms. Historically, the armed forces are apolitical. You could not get your ducks in a row for a military coup of any proportion unless you had the three chiefs on the same page (well nigh impossible, these guys are so competitive and covetous of their forces) and for the army, at least half your Principle Staff Officers, no less than five army commanders, at least ten Corps commanders and no less than twenty to thirty General Officers Commanding of Divisions. Not to even get to the hundreds of Brigadiers and Colonels.

The shocking part is how easy it is to con the people. Half of India actually believes there is some truth in it that the military takeover attempt happened. After all, clumsy official responses add to the perception that something stinks in Delhi. True, well said. If nothing, General Singh must have wanted to flex muscle to get his one-year extension. Makes sense, right? Wrong. No General does something so stupid and places himself and the men under his command in jeopardy. Not with only 4,000 men. Stop being so unutterably naïve. And end it here, because in the past few weeks the country is fast becoming a caricature. Time for the General also to stop giving interviews and start packing his bags.

Bikram Vohra is Editorial Advisor at Khaleej Times. Write to him at bikram@khaleejtimes.com


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 11:10 
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Been watching Nitin Gokhale on the tele until now. Admiral Bhagwat forwarded his article on la affaire Shekhar Gupta to me last night! It's on his blog nitinagokhale.blogspot.in
Nevertheless, can't resist pasting it. Nitin has high jacked one of the best quotes from Kautilya, written 2,000 years ago on civil-military relationships.


Friday, April 6, 2012
The Soldier, the State and the Media
In my three decades of reporting on the Indian military, I have never felt more uneasy about the military-media interface as I have in the past three months.
Not because the media has been accused of being sensationalist or because many unsavoury truths about internal rivalry and groupism in the military brass has created bad blood in the top hierarchy.
My unease stems from the damage that events of the past few months have inflicted on the average Indian soldier.
While all dramtis personae are equally culpable in the current controversy, we in the media certainly have a greater responsibility not to add fuel to the fire.
For at least a quarter century now, we have been lamenting the steadily diminishing status of the ordinary Indian soldier in the society.; that soldering is no longer respected as a nobel profession in our rural areas; that the jawan struggles to get his due from the civil administration increasingly contemptuous and apathetic towards him; that he continues to get poorly paid and unfairly treated by a society solely driven by materialism.
Now, following a spate of reports based on half-truths and outright lies, motivated by God alone knows what, we may have done the ultimate disservice to the Indian soldier: planted the seed of suspicion about his loyalty in the minds of ordinary Indians.
While I will defend the right of every media person to report what he or she thinks is right, I am afraid none of us has thought through the consequences of the effect it will have on the psyche of the Indian soldier and more importantly the way ordinary Indians will view the Indian Army.
In the mad race to boost our circulation and viewer ratings, we may have, in one go, started the process of demolishing one last institution that has stood rock solid in defence of idea that is India.
For the first time in my now reasonably longish career in journalism, I feel like hiding from my friends in the military.
I feel we have not paused to think of the long-term damage we have wrought upon the profession of soldiering.
I say this because from disaster relief in floods, tsunami, and earthquakes to rescuing infant Prince from a deep tube well and from quelling rioters in communal strife to being the last resort in internal counter-insurgency operations, the Indian Army has been omnipresent.
It is, what I call, India’s Brahmaastra (the ultimate weapon).
The versatility, adaptability, selfless attitude and resourcefulness of the Indian Army has allowed it to be what it is today: Nation Builders.
And viewed in the context of India’s immediate and extended neighbourhood, its stellar role stands out in stark contrast to its counterparts in other countries.
Remember, Indian and Pakistani Armies originated from the same source, the British Army and yet, six decades since they parted ways, there couldn’t be a bigger dissimilarity in the way the two have evolved.
As they say, India has an Army while the Pakistani Army has a nation!
More importantly, despite India’s increasing dependence on the Army to pull its chestnuts out of fire time and again, the Indian Army has scrupulously remained apolitical.
The contribution of the Indian Army in nurturing and strengthening democracy—with all its faults—can never be underestimated.
It has put down fissiparous and secessionist forces within India with great cost to itself over these 60 years. It has protected India from within and without.
The Indian army also has a unique distinction of helping create a nation (Bangladesh) in the neighbourhood and then quietly walking away to let the people take charge.
By contrast, the Pakistani Army has never really allowed democracy to flourish in its country. Instead, it has created a military-industrial complex that has spread its tentacles in every aspect of governance. Even today, the Pakistani army does not let go of any opportunity to undercut democracy; it nurtures and treats jihadi elements as its strategic asset against India and the United States.
Even in other smaller nations around India—Nepal, Myanmar and Bangladesh, for instance—the armed forces have had to intervene and run the affairs of those countries at some point.
The Army has also withstood systematic assault on its status from politicians and bureaucrats who are forever looking for ways to downgrade the military’s status. While the principle of civilian supremacy over the armed forces is well entrenched and understood in India, what is incomprehensible is the constant chipping away at the military’s standing.
The nation as a whole and indeed the people at large have the highest regard and affinity for the men in uniform for the yeoman service they render in every conceivable situation, but most mandarins in the Ministry of Defence and some of the politicians do not have the same opinion and are repeatedly trying to run down the military without realising the immense damage they cause to the only available bulwark we have against any attempt to Balkanise India. Now unfortunately, even we in the media seem to have joined these these ill-informed and devious bunch of opportunists.
As former Chief of army Staff, Gen. S. Padmanabhan says in his book, A General Speaks: Even after Independence, India’s political leaders found it convenient to keep the Army, Navy and the Air Force out of the ‘policy’ making bodies. The service HQs were left at the level that the British left them—that of being ‘attached offices,’ of the Ministry of Defence. Even at the level of Defence Minister and Service Chiefs, exchanges on major matters of Defence policy were few and far between…”
Another former Army Chief, Gen. Shankar Roy Choudhury has observed: “It is… essential in the national interest that the armed forces are upgraded and updated on an ongoing basis, something which governments have been traditionally loath to acknowledge and undertake, the Indian government perhaps more so than others in this respect.
”Historically, it is to the credit of the Indian Army that it has fulfilled its role as an organ of the state…It has functioned effectively in every type of role, in spite of the general lack of a supportive government environment by way of adequate finances, resources, equipment, personnel policies, or higher political direction.”
A nation’s military provides what is called a ‘hard-edged’ backup to its international standing. A strong military and especially a powerful, well-trained, fully-equipped army act as a deterrent against adversaries. It is therefore essential that the nation’s decision-makers consciously back the Army and provide it with the support that it needs to meet diverse challenges that exist and are likely to come up in the coming decade.
So far, the Indian Army has fulfilled its role in nation building admirably well. All of us, ordinary citizens, media persons, politicians, bureaucrats, must continue to back the nation’s strongest asset and further strengthen it, if we desire to see India as a global player in the decades to come.
Centuries ago, Kautilya, the wily old strategist told king Chandragupta why the soldier is important for the survival of the Kingdom. If India has to survive as a nation-state, this advice (reproduced from a piece written by Air Marshal SG Inamdar for the USI Journal) is worth repeating in its entirety here.
As the learned Air Marshal says:” It is amazing how clearly those ancients saw the likely faultlines in governance, the intricacies of management of the military by the state functionaries, the nature of the military and the citizenry and the close interplay between them all. It is truly amazing how those observations continue to be so completely relevant today, even after 2000 years.”
Here’s what Kautilya told the king of Magadh:
“The Mauryan soldier does not himself the Royal treasuries enrich nor does he the Royal granaries fill. He does not himself carry out trade and commerce nor produce scholars, thinkers, littérateurs, artistes, artisans, sculptors, architects, craftsmen, doctors and administrators. He does not himself build roads and ramparts nor dig wells and reservoirs. He does not himself write poetry and plays, paint or sculpt, nor delve in metaphysics, arts and sciences. He does not do any of this directly as he is neither gifted, trained nor mandated to do so.
The soldier only and merely ensures that:
The tax, tribute and revenue collectors travel far and wide unharmed and return safely;
The farmer tills, grows, harvests, stores and markets his produce unafraid of pillage & plunder;
The trader, merchant and moneylender function and travel across the length and breadth of the realm unmolested;
The savant, sculptor, painter, maestro and master create works of art, literature, philosophy, astronomy and astrology in peace & quietitude;
The architect designs and builds his Vaastus without tension;
The tutor (‘acharya’), the mentor (‘guru’) and the priest (‘purohit’) teach and preach in tranquility;
The sages (‘rishis, munis, and tapaswees’) meditate and undertake penance in wordless silence;
The doctor (‘vaidyaraja’) tends to the ill and the infirm well, adds to the pharmacopoeia, discovers new herbs and invents new medical formulations undisturbed;
The mason, the bricklayer, the artisan, the weaver, the tailor, the jeweller, the potter, the carpenter, the cobbler, the cowherd (‘gopaala’) and the smith work unhindered;
The mother, wife and governess go about their chores and bring up children in harmony and tranquility;
The aged and the disabled are well taken care of, tended to and are able to fade away gracefully and with dignity; cattle graze freely without being lifted or harmed by miscreants.
He is thus the VERY BASIS and silent, barely visible CORNERSTONE of our fame, culture, physical well being and prosperity; in short, of the entire nation building activity. He DOES NOT perform any of these chores himself directly: he ENABLES the rest of us to perform these without let, hindrance or worry (‘nirbhheek and nishchinta’).
Our military sinews, on the other hand, lend credibility to our pronouncements of adherence to good Dharma, our goodwill, amiability and peaceful intentions towards all our neighbour nations (‘sarve bhavantu sukhinaha, sarve santu niramayaha…’) as also those far away and beyond. These also serve as a powerful deterrent against military misadventure by any one of them against us.
If Pataliputra reposes each night in peaceful comfort, O King, it is so because she is secure in the belief that the distant borders of Magadha are inviolate and the interiors are safe and secure, thanks to the mighty Mauryan Army constantly patrolling and standing vigil with naked swords and eyes peeled for action (‘animish netre’), day and night (‘ratrau-divase’), in weather fair and foul, dawn-to-dusk-to-dawn (‘ashtau prahare’), quite unmindful of personal discomfort and hardship, loss of life and limb, separation from the family, all through the year, year after year (‘warsha nu warshe’).

While the Magadha citizenry endeavours to make the State prosper and flourish, the Mauryan soldier guarantees that the State continues to EXIST! He is the silent ’sine qua non’ of our very being!”
Can we all—people in uniform, civil services, politics, media and society at large-- imbue this spirit?


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 11:26 
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SCREAMING NEWS!

Attn: Shekhar Gupta - MOST URGENT! STOP PRESS etc.

2 RAJPUT, the Army Chief's very own, has truncated it's month long exercise and is HEADING TOWARDS DELHI! God swear, it's true!


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PostPosted: 09 Apr 2012 12:21 
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Quote:
While pontificating on the issue of civil-military relations it is best to be clear about some basic issues.

In the public perception, the Armed Forces are "cleaner" than the politicians, police and the bureaucrats. When the Indian economy was depressed, a job in the Armed Forces meant social, financial and health security at an unprecedented level. It was considered the place for an honest person to go. At a time when most Indian companies could not even pay employees regularly, the Armed Forces offered you and your dependents complete health coverage.

Now India's economy has taken off, and the armed forces no longer offer the same sense of job security that they used to. Also the armed forces are increasingly being called on to die for India - so people's perception of the armed forces as a career choice is changing and with it - the people going to the services is changing also.

There was always corruption in the armed forces and a very powerful arms lobby has existed since before independence. Today the money changing hands is huge and so also is the competition between lobbyists and middlemen. This more than anything else is slowing down acquisitions. BTW this is how it is all over the world - so get used to it.

The involvement of high level officers in corruption in the Army is NOT - I repeat - NOT uncommon. It is always a shock when it comes to light but there have been cases of this kind before.

The Armed Forces are human - yes perhaps exceptional in certain ways but completely ordinary in other ways. It is foolish to expect more of them than we do of ourselves.


The above comment is from a blogger called Mav,who was ex-admn at BRF.The mutual hate between mav(and his friends/cohorts)and our forum members is well known.Yet there are a few who post at both places.I am no mediator and do not support the vitriol posted against BRF there.

But still I felt this should be posted.Are we having too much expectations from our armed forces personnel when corruption and casteism is the norm in our public life.

Mods,if inappropriate please delete part or all of my post.


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