Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Post Reply
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by sum »

New battle for next army chief
The dust has barely settled after General VK Singh’s Supreme Court battle to be army chief for another year. Now another senior army general is approaching court with a petition that, if accepted, could make him the next army chief instead of Lt Gen Dalbir Singh, the Eastern Army commander who is currently in line.

Business Standard has learned that Lt Gen Ravi Dastane, currently the Deputy Chief of the tri-service Integrated Defence Staff, will shortly file a petition with the Armed Forces Tribunal, a high-court level legal body that adjudicates on military matters.

“My client has been unfairly denied the appointment of army commander, for which he fulfilled every condition. Instead, a post was kept vacant for Lt Gen Dalbir Singh who was under a vigilance ban. This was procedurally incorrect, and I will request the Honourable court to set it aside,” says Major (Retired) Sudhansu Pande, who will represent Gen Dastane in court.

After commanding the Leh-based 14 Corps in 2011-12, Gen Dastane is eligible to be appointed an army commander, a pre-requisite for becoming army chief. The army has seven commands: six geographical (northern, western, south-western, southern, central and eastern); and one functional command, the Army Training Command or ARTRAC. There is also the tri-service Andaman & Nicobar Command, which is commanded in turn by officers from the army, navy and air force.

The key date in the current dispute is 31st May 2012, when two army commanders’ posts fell vacant with the retirement of former army chief, Gen VK Singh, and the western army commander, Lt Gen Shankar Ghosh. Army records examined by Business Standard indicate that the three senior-most generals on that day who were eligible to become army commanders (the pre-requisite being that they must have commanded a corps) were, in order of seniority: Lt Gen Dalbir Singh; followed by Lt Gen Sanjiv Chachra; followed by Lt Gen Ravi Dastane.

As was widely reported in the media at the time (and corroborated by Major Pande), Lt Gen Dalbir Singh was under a discipline and vigilance (DV) ban, having received a show-cause notice from the former army chief, Gen VK Singh, for a botched operation by the 3 Corps Intelligence Unit under Dalbir’s command.

With Dalbir ineligible for elevation because of the DV ban, the army appointed Chachra as western army commander (MS Branch signal 388218/2012/MS(X)/79 dated 30th May 12). Dastane, however, was not given the second army commander vacancy. Instead, it was kept vacant until Lt Gen Dalbir Singh’s show cause notice was nullified on 8th June by Gen Bikram Singh, who had taken over as army chief.

On 15th June, Lt Gen Dalbir Singh was appointed the eastern army commander through MS Branch signal 388246/2012/MS(X)/94 dated 15th Jun 12. Two weeks later, the MS Branch restored his seniority of 1st June 2012, through MS Branch letter A/45751/2012/LG/Army Cdr/EC/MS(X) dated 24th June 12.

Dastane’s Statutory Complaint to the MoD, filed on 6th August, objects to the differential standards applied, in which one vacancy was filled by appointing Lt Gen Chachra, while “reserving” one vacancy for Lt Gen Dalbir Singh, and granting him retrospective seniority.

“They appointed Lt Gen Chachra because he was retiring on 31st May 12. But my client was as eligible as him, and if Chachra was considered for army commanders’ appt on 31st May, that concession should also have been given to me. The government could have taken a stand that we will not appoint anyone before Dalbir’s show-cause notice is resolved. But they considered and appointed Chachra,” points out Pande.

The next army commander’s vacancy arises only on 31st January, by when Dastane would have less than two years of residual service, rendering him ineligible as per current guidelines to be appointed army commander.
member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_22906 »

rohitvats wrote:^^^^and compare the situation with ours.....India paid homage to those who laid down their lives in 1962 for the first tjme this year...and yet, day after day, night after night, war after war, young men don't hesitate to walk down the path of martyrs...sigh!!!
One of the most touching phrases I saw in one of the war memorials in Arunachal Pradesh was "When you go back home, tell them about us... Beacuse for your tomorrow, we gave our today..."

It still moves me whenever I think of this
member_23629
BRFite
Posts: 676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_23629 »

Ajay Sharma wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^^and compare the situation with ours.....India paid homage to those who laid down their lives in 1962 for the first tjme this year...and yet, day after day, night after night, war after war, young men don't hesitate to walk down the path of martyrs...sigh!!!
One of the most touching phrases I saw in one of the war memorials in Arunachal Pradesh was "When you go back home, tell them about us... Beacuse for your tomorrow, we gave our today..."

It still moves me whenever I think of this
From Wikipedia:
The War Cemetery in Kohima has the famous inscription "When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say, For Your Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today" — The Kohima Epitaph is attributed to John Maxwell Edmonds (1875–1958), and is thought to have been inspired by the epitaph of Simonides written by Simonides to honour the Spartans who fell at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC.[3]
Samay
BRFite
Posts: 1167
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 02:35
Location: India

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Samay »

I think these true warriors of India( like those of 1962) ,they never die, they just change their body and take rebirth to defend this land again and again, because in the end ,this is what they love, and if the theory of Karma is true then their Karma for this , is already done but remains unpaid in return ,and so ,it makes it possible..
just a thought..
merlin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2153
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: NullPointerException

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by merlin »

member_22906
BRFite
Posts: 305
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_22906 »

varunkumar wrote: From Wikipedia:
The War Cemetery in Kohima has the famous inscription "When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say, For Your Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today" — The Kohima Epitaph is attributed to John Maxwell Edmonds (1875–1958), and is thought to have been inspired by the epitaph of Simonides written by Simonides to honour the Spartans who fell at the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC.[3]

Thanks varunkumar. Perhaps that is what it was. However, never been to Kohima. Saw in the Bomdila-Sela-Tawang sector. Not remembering the exact place
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Lalmohan »

that phrase has been reused in other war cemetaries as well, i think in Pune for one
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

So, Shukla is down to writing trash like this.......hmmmmm....could it be due to his new found avatar of being close to establishment? After all, if reports are to be believed, he was part of CORE GROUP of Track 2 delegation which agreed on Siachen CBM....
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

rohitvats wrote:
So, Shukla is down to writing trash like this.......hmmmmm....could it be due to his new found avatar of being close to establishment? After all, if reports are to be believed, he was part of CORE GROUP of Track 2 delegation which agreed on Siachen CBM....
Or could it be that the truth is causing us Takleef when its put out there in blunt terms? Not that I am disagreeing that the picture he paints is bleaker than what might be the case if one considers the organization size etc. Both sides are vulnerable to hyperbole, but is what he is saying totally untrue?

If we shoot the messenger, does it make the message go away?

Maybe I am rambling about nothing, but I would still like to see his allegations (especially about the Lt-Generals and their actions that he mentions mid way through the article) verified before I trash his article. A lot of folks here are knowledgeable about this. Can they elaborate?
member_23629
BRFite
Posts: 676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_23629 »

rohitvats wrote:
So, Shukla is down to writing trash like this.......hmmmmm....could it be due to his new found avatar of being close to establishment? After all, if reports are to be believed, he was part of CORE GROUP of Track 2 delegation which agreed on Siachen CBM....
Agree. The venom the idiot spits on the army, especially those who fought in the China war, is beneath contempt. It is a hit job.
Will
BRFite
Posts: 637
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 11:27

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Will »

So, Shukla is down to writing trash like this.......hmmmmm....could it be due to his new found avatar of being close to establishment? After all, if reports are to be believed, he was part of CORE GROUP of Track 2 delegation which agreed on Siachen CBM..

Or could it be that the truth is causing us Takleef when its put out there in blunt terms? Not that I am disagreeing that the picture he paints is bleaker than what might be the case if one considers the organization size etc. Both sides are vulnerable to hyperbole, but is what he is saying totally untrue?

If we shoot the messenger, does it make the message go away?

Maybe I am rambling about nothing, but I would still like to see his allegations (especially about the Lt-Generals and their actions that he mentions mid way through the article) verified before I trash his article. A lot of folks here are knowledgeable about this. Can they elaborate?[/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are right Vivek. Its high time we all stopped burying our heads in the sand like an Ostrich pretending that everything is hunky dory. Not everything in the article maybe be right but there are some blunt truths in there.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

Well, I am certainly not going to say that the there is no wrong in the Army, but the above article is sheer trash. The tone of venom against what are Chiefs of Army staff (and his superior officers) is breathtaking -- there is more personal rancor being exhibited than a shred of fact.

This is what is typically called a hatchet job.

I wonder what can be seen as right in the above.
vivek_ahuja wrote: Both sides are vulnerable to hyperbole, but is what he is saying totally untrue?
Which are both sides Vivek? Seriously?

And in any case since when did Shukla get licence to behave like a irresponsible reporter and muddy water with hyperbole? If he is going to behave like Burka Dutt, then at the very least he can drop the pretense of once being a soldier?
eklavya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 23:57

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by eklavya »

The article about the opportunistic Lt Gen trying to manoeuvre himself into the next COAS slot is more worrying. The Indian Navy used to be famous for it succession battles. The Indian Army's senior officers seem to be setting a new 'low standard' for sheer bloody-minded naked ambition, espirit de corp be damned.
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Sanku wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote: Both sides are vulnerable to hyperbole, but is what he is saying totally untrue?
Which are both sides Vivek? Seriously?
I guess I should elaborate what I meant earlier.

When I think of two sides, I am saying that there is this one side to which the vast majority of the DDM and Politicos fall into. For them the Indian Military is a large parasitic organization full of incompetents blah blah blah. To this side, the 1962 war was a military defeat while the poor politicians were let down by the armed forces. They conveniently ignore the sacrifices made by the soldiers who fought under very adverse conditions often to the last man and bullet.

Then there is this other nationalistic side to whom the 1962 war was a total debacle traceable to the upper echelons of political control only. For whom the Indian Military is so sacrosanct that any mention of mistakes/faults/cowardice events etc is anathema and they will come out with phrases like:
The venom the idiot spits on the army, especially those who fought in the China war, is beneath contempt. It is a hit job.


To this group, any mention of mistakes made by units and commanders in the field is not to be mentioned because it reflects poorly on the soldiers who did fight bravely. [As a side-note: I have never understood why people feel this way. Surely mistakes and errors done in the past must be admitted and revisited and understood for future situations? Same goes for someone who points out the leadership rot at the top. So why behave like Pakistanis do when it comes to analyzing our mistakes? The 1962 war ruined a lot of careers within the Indian Army not only because we lost the war, but also because folks were caught fleeing from the battlefield, field commanders were clueless in dire situations and higher command had no clear strategy for war. To mention these is in no way to spit on the memory of those others who DID fight bravely and held their ground to the last breath. Nor does it reduce the interference and incompetency of the Politicians down from Nehru and others.]

Anyway, this second group will trash the other side for suggesting otherwise. Shukla must not talk ill about his senior officers because they are his senior officers (forgetting that he no longer actively serving and so must hide anything wrong he sees). Forgetting Shukla at the moment; had it been anybody who comes and points a finger at the top and says a set of things that are wrong, must it always be because its a hit-job and not because it might actually be true to a certain extent? Let's shoot the messenger for sacrilege!

And I am sitting here thinking why this must be so? Surely there are points in Shukla's article that are true (And also a bunch of others that are probably made up or false or just his opinions)? Because he mentions one sentence about the 1962 war, he becomes everything from trash to hit-job to whatever? There is no middle ground here? We can't discuss the points he makes about the senior Generals today and separate out his opinion/comment about the 1962 war?

And again, let me say this: If what you all feel is so utterly false in the article, why not point those out and correct them for the record here, instead of stereotyping BRF response for the world to see? Which has greater professionalism?

Anyway, hopefully this clarifies my horror to see the polarization I am seeing here and also in the comments section under Shukla's article. Feel free to disregard these thoughts if I have offended anybody.

-Vivek
Gurneesh
BRFite
Posts: 465
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 21:21
Location: Troposphere

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Gurneesh »

This news :
"MoD nod for Rs 6,000-cr purchase"
http://idrw.org/?p=15299
The ministry cleared proposals to buy 3,000 Light Support Vehicles (LSVs) for the Army at a cost of Rs 1,500 crore. Ministry officials said the Army wants more rugged vehicles for its troops deployed in Jammu and Kashmir and the Northeast.
Looks like they finally decided which LSV to buy. I wonder which one. But at 1500 crores each one costs 50 lakhs !!

IIRC, recently there was an article wherein a DRDO order for a single TATRA was cancelled. That order was also supposed to cost around 62 lakhs.
schowdhuri
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 12:24

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by schowdhuri »

rohitvats wrote:
So, Shukla is down to writing trash like this.......hmmmmm....could it be due to his new found avatar of being close to establishment? After all, if reports are to be believed, he was part of CORE GROUP of Track 2 delegation which agreed on Siachen CBM....
Rohitvats,
With your background, it cannot be that you are not aware that both the points (misuse of staff, and troops running away in 1962) Col. Shukla writes about are very true - and have been true for quite a while. What is the trash he is writing?

My fathers best friend (Lt. Goswami) stayed back with a platoon to cover the retreat of a full brigade, and they all died fighting. Forget a medal, nothing is mentioned about the action, so that the officers of the brigade who ran away could tell tall stories about how well they fought and were outnumbered. The 1962 saga is full of such incidents which I am sure you are well aware of.
Avik
BRFite
Posts: 217
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Avik »

so that the officers of the brigade who ran away could tell tall stories about how well they fought and were outnumbered.
schowdhuri: I am not sure what tall tales you're referring to here? Within the IA, 1962 is is very well accepted for the debacle it was. I am not aware of any senior officer in the Eastern Comm from 1962 that tells tall tales. Infact, the immediate distaste in the aftermath was so much that all requests for gallantry awards from the few units that stood and fought in the eastern sector like 2 Rajput was also turned down. Again, I dont know whether you're aware, but the 4 Div was ignominously made to march back on foot all the way from NEFA to Allahabad after the war.
The situation in Ladakh was much better, and those actions are well recognized a-la 13 Kumaon.
But I'm still not aware of any senior officer spinning yarns about 62 operation atleast from the Eastern Comm.
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Avik wrote:But I'm still not aware of any senior officer spinning yarns about 62 operation atleast from the Eastern Comm.
I don't think he meant it as tall tales as much as sympathetic stories that were brought out by some of the senior officers exempting themselves from guilt and allegations of incompetency by showing themselves in good light and transferring the blame higher up the command. If you read the memoirs of folks like Niranjan Prasad (The Fall of Tawang), Brigadier Dalvi's book (Himalayan Blunder), General Sen's thoughts immediately after the war and a bunch of other contemporary articles etc, the trend is the same: "I knew it was going to blow up, I made sure everybody under me was ready, but command messed everything up. I wanted to pull people to better defensive positions, but XYZ with more stars on his collar tab came down and said No etc. And here's how."

A common theme in all those stories is how they were all India's answer to Napoleon and why their plans were screwed up by everyone except themselves.
Avik
BRFite
Posts: 217
Joined: 06 Oct 2009 00:16

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Avik »

A common theme in all those stories is how they were all India's answer to Napoleon and why their plans were screwed up by everyone except themselves.
Agreed. But thats what you generally get in autobiographies of army officers, whether Indian, Israeli or American. What else would you expect in a book written by someone about himself!!

The moot point is that most IA officers, generally, see these books as self aggrandizing pieces of fiction. Within the IA, as I said earlier, 62 is accepted for the debacle it was. For the last 50 yrs, the majority of IA's mountain warfare training across all higher and junior leader academies has been geared towards ensuring that 62 and its variants are not repeated.
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

Avik wrote:The moot point is that most IA officers, generally, see these books as self aggrandizing pieces of fiction. Within the IA, as I said earlier, 62 is accepted for the debacle it was. For the last 50 yrs, the majority of IA's mountain warfare training across all higher and junior leader academies has been geared towards ensuring that 62 and its variants are not repeated.
Agreed.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Avik wrote:
so that the officers of the brigade who ran away could tell tall stories about how well they fought and were outnumbered.
<SNIP>Again, I dont know whether you're aware, but the 4 Div was ignominiously made to march back on foot all the way from NEFA to Allahabad after the war.<SNIP>

For a very very long time, 4 Div was called 'Punishment Division'.....from what I understand, it used to get immense 'raagda' in everything..from basic day-to-day activity to exercises.
vivek_ahuja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 16:58

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by vivek_ahuja »

rohitvats wrote:For a very very long time, 4 Div was called 'Punishment Division'.....from what I understand, it used to get immense 'raagda' in everything..from basic day-to-day activity to exercises.
Sad. Considering the famous roots of this Division before the war...
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Singha »

it is now a mountain div and HQed in tezpur right?
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

vivek_ahuja wrote: I guess I should elaborate what I meant earlier.
Thanks for explaining further Vivek, however in reading Shukla's article, you seem to have given focus to the events in 62, I however, gave more focus to the overall events, including now.

In any case I would some what disagree with
Then there is this other nationalistic side to whom the 1962 war was a total debacle traceable to the upper echelons of political control only. For whom the Indian Military is so sacrosanct that any mention of mistakes/faults/cowardice events etc is anathema and they will come out with phrases like:
The fiasco that happened at lower levels too is well understood, its just that most of it is rooted in the very top and started from there. Avik & Rohit has already talked about it so I will not dwell here.

I will however like to respond to a point that appears to have come from my comment --
Shukla must not talk ill about his senior officers because they are his senior officers (forgetting that he no longer actively serving and so must hide anything wrong he sees).
No it is not a question of "Shukla must not talk ill since they are his senior officers" -- the question is of tone -- Shukla can easily make factual points without the sneer and contempt that the article has, in fact the article has more sneer and concept and unsubstantiated allegations flung around (on V K Singh for that matter) -- rather than any facts.

This is sad, in Burka Dutt it would be expected, in Shukla, even given his past track of building up one agenda at cost of everything else -- it is doubly sad.

This is the chief complaint -- and not that Shukla may not write against seniors if something is rotten.
Forgetting Shukla at the moment;
Unfortunately we can not forget Shukla, a whole deal isnot about the message -- it is about those purporting to be the messenger -- and let me be honest you can claim me biased since I have been pointing out a "agenda" in Shukla's writing for a long time, and hence it gives me some satisfaction that his more recent writing bear that out clearly and other BRFites also see it.
Anyway, hopefully this clarifies my horror to see the polarization I am seeing here and also in the comments section under Shukla's article. Feel free to disregard these thoughts if I have offended anybody.
The country is going through severe polarization -- the above is small example of the same.

IMVHO it is a good thing -- very hard to deal with, true, and also not without many ill effects, but good nevertheless.
member_23629
BRFite
Posts: 676
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_23629 »

For a very very long time, 4 Div was called 'Punishment Division'.....from what I understand, it used to get immense 'raagda' in everything..from basic day-to-day activity to exercises.
While the soldiers got quickly punished for deserting their posts, I wish somebody could have similarly frog-marched Nehru and Krishna Menon all the way from Delhi to NEFA. Too bad the louts escaped any punishment and continued on their international five-star junkets as if nothing had happened.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Singha wrote:it is now a mountain div and HQed in tezpur right?
It used to be a mountain division (was raised as one) but after 1962 became an Infantry Division. It shifted base to Allahabad where it remains to this day and is part of I Strike Corps. Incidentally, it is the latest Division to convert to RAPID configuration - Army's sixth.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

vivek_ahuja wrote:
rohitvats wrote:For a very very long time, 4 Div was called 'Punishment Division'.....from what I understand, it used to get immense 'raagda' in everything..from basic day-to-day activity to exercises.
Sad. Considering the famous roots of this Division before the war...
Exactly - and that is what caused all the emotional turmoil in the army. Posting to 4 Division was considered 'Punishment Posting'...and people in army still remember its dubious conduct in 1962 war. As one JCO sahab told me, "Yeh 62 mein bhaag gaye the....".....the stigma stuck for a very long time. Also, as per one anecdote I've heard, General Thapar was refused entry into Rajputana Rifles Mess because of his role in 62 war (I've nothing to back this up)
schowdhuri
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 12:24

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by schowdhuri »

While all this hurts, much of it is true and cannot be glossed over. 4 div was indeed a punishment div. Just to let you know where I am coming from, here is a pic of my father during 1962 ops, and note the formation sign.

Image
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

schowdhuri wrote: and note the formation sign.
Ok forgive me for being duh, but I can only see crossed Khukri's (regimental sign) and not the formation sign.

What am I missing in my understanding? :|
schowdhuri
BRFite
Posts: 174
Joined: 15 Dec 2010 12:24

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by schowdhuri »

Sanku wrote:
schowdhuri wrote: and note the formation sign.
Ok forgive me for being duh, but I can only see crossed Khukri's (regimental sign) and not the formation sign.

What am I missing in my understanding? :|
That's actually the 4 div sign, red eagle
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

schowdhuri wrote:
That's actually the 4 div sign, red eagle
Still looks like crossed Khukhri's to me :-(. Time to get eyes checked.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Sanku wrote:
schowdhuri wrote:
That's actually the 4 div sign, red eagle
Still looks like crossed Khukhri's to me :-(. Time to get eyes checked.
This is what the formation sign looks like...
Image
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Sanku »

rohitvats wrote:
Sanku wrote:
Still looks like crossed Khukhri's to me :-(. Time to get eyes checked.
This is what the formation sign looks like...
Rohit, I knew that already, that is why I said that I need to get my eyes checked (or my head) -- this was not a case of ignorance, this was a case of reading the sign wrong (even now) when I know the individual signs.

:((
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ramana »

In Desmond Young bio of Rommel he quotes the high praise he gave the Red Eagle division in the Africa Campaign.

Again note the division comprises of units from different regiments. Its those units that fled as they were not battle ready. Yet the stigma is to the fighting formation atthe division level.

And by keeping it at that level the Red Eagle division also stopped the rot like Shiv's swallowing the halahal and didn't let it got to the unit level.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Surya »

I finally read shuklas article and comments

sorry I don't think its that far off

If one reads between the lines on Mrs Avasthy's agony - a lot more people seemed to have got away.

regarding lack of intellectual pursuits
at one point some in the AF felt its pilots were more into reading film magazines than aviation journals. I am not that close to army units to comment on what young officers are interested in

when I was closer i got to observe Vij and that was enough

schowdhuri

thanks for the picture - you should really do a veterans page for your dad etc and put it on BR

the Army veteran page needs to get started and we get promises but no one seems to be interested
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

Something worth reading to understand that 1962 was not only about NEFA and Kaul:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer ... er=2203022

There is a whole photo album on Walong in the link above. Do go through it...along with Tawang Sector, this is another vital area from where PLA can ingress in substantial numbers. And which is considered a very vital sector.


Image
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by rohitvats »

The official history of Indian Armed Forces in WW2 was released recently.

I hope it does justice to one of the most significant (and most overlooked) contributions to the Second World War Effort.

Definitely worth having for your library.

Source:http://chhindits.blogspot.in/2012/10/of ... es_31.html

Image
Image
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ramana »

The panel discussion had no one from IN?

RIN had 150 ships at its height in WWII.

Rohit, My hobby in every new library I visit is to go look up WII collection and see refs to India's role in it.
Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2579
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Katare »

What would be a good book to read on 1962 war? Looking to read more on to the military side of it rather than the political side.
Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Surya »

rohit

thanks
where can one get it

probably weighs a ton
Post Reply