Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Yogesh »

sum
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by sum »

^^ Yup, NDA sure did start oredring the TATRA trucks since their rule in 1986... :roll: :roll:

Is there any scam in Desh which NDA hasnt been involved in since independence?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Yogesh »

sum wrote:^^ Yup, NDA sure did start oredring the TATRA trucks since their rule in 1986... :roll: :roll:

Is there any scam in Desh which NDA hasnt been involved in since independence?
Well granted they did some purchase in hurry during Op Parakram (1999, 2001 and 2002-03 period), but why now telling the country that it was NDA the evil :(( :(( ... If one sees the logic in almost every scams where this Gov is cornered first they say oh well theere is nothing and later when there seems to some subsatnce they start crying this was done during NDA regime ...what short of logic is this :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

sum wrote:^^ Yup, NDA sure did start oredring the TATRA trucks since their rule in 1986... :roll: :roll:

Is there any scam in Desh which NDA hasnt been involved in since independence?
Sum,

That's the beauty of this. In 1986, the trucks were supposed to be within the army standards. What actually happened is after the change in the QR 2006, the Tatra came under shadow. The TATA motors and others lined up in 2008.

This incident has caught up in a cross fire between various parties like MoD, Army, BEML etc. Even though they are all one and the same however, the dept's live in bunkers. Since this is getting attention, no one is ready to come and claim responsibility. The army has shrugged off responsibility by saying it does not want it, at the same time Army dept's pushed for more. Mod is blaming Army and BEML.

Its even wider. It has become UPA vs NDA. the fact is both are responsible as they both ordered it when in power.

The vigilance which was to check it since 2008, slept on its job.

Now more interesting. Like rohitvats links, the trucks don't work for missiles, but, DRDO which is building it says that its good and Army has specifically asked them to use only Tatra.

This is absolutely masala.

The fact whats emerging is that there is a tender going on for these kinds of vehicles since 2008. (2006 to 2008 if you ask what they were doing, thats how they work, procedures procedures).

meanwhile, they have to order trucks and keep PSU humming and fullfiling the addl needs.

Some might question why 'not required numbers were ordered,' again we can see a turf war. Army dept ordered and MoD says they are ordering as per Army. But, Army says that MoD is pushing down the throat :rotfl:
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by member_19648 »

Since the blame game, mud slinging and what not have started, we can safely assume that there is a scam?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Ivanev wrote:Since the blame game, mud slinging and what not have started, we can safely assume that there is a scam?
Even if yes or no, no one will come forward and be a good boy. Its not just Mod, the entire system, even PMO is paralyzed because of it.

Added later...
Kilo Force initiative

Bandipora Premier League Cricket Tournament begins
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:

This incident has caught up in a cross fire between various parties like MoD, Army, BEML etc.
This is atrocious mis-representation in broad daylight. At 2008 DAC ANTONY was told that trucks are sub-standard and army does'nt want to use them. Can army be more specific than that?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Pedro,

When you have already said that I am a plain and balant liar, why do you then bother questioning and reply to me? I think, you should not waste your time and mine.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:Pedro,

When you have already said that I am a plain and balant liar, why do you then bother questioning and reply to me? I think, you should not waste your time and mine.
Honesty is a virtue that is highly appreciated. So long you keep mis-representing I will feel compelled to point out. Whether you like it or not.

I hope you are realizing that on this wide forum your stance is being judged by a lot of people and may do you good to be logical in your arguments.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

peter wrote:Honesty is a virtue that is highly appreciated. So long you keep mis-representing I will feel compelled to point out. Whether you like it or not.

I hope you are realizing that on this wide forum your stance is being judged by a lot of people and may do you good to be logical in your arguments.

Hope this helps.
How do you expect a liar to do that? I cannot understand why do you want me to agree to the lies you are promoting? Aren't there softer targets? You are biased and as per last time, I understand that you have a vested interest. Your desperation exhibits that.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:
peter wrote:Honesty is a virtue that is highly appreciated. So long you keep mis-representing I will feel compelled to point out. Whether you like it or not.

I hope you are realizing that on this wide forum your stance is being judged by a lot of people and may do you good to be logical in your arguments.

Hope this helps.
How do you expect a liar to do that? I cannot understand why do you want me to agree to the lies you are promoting? Aren't there softer targets? You are biased and as per last time, I understand that you have a vested interest. Your desperation exhibits that.
I guess Saikat, other journalists and a whole slew of BRFites are biased, as per your definition, and somehow you are the only one who is "truthful"?

But the fact remains you have not once condemned that under Antony's watch sub-standard trucks are being sold to Indian army at a great loss to the Indian exchequer. You are still stuck to a loss of 13 crores while other journalists have pointed out Tatra markups range from 100%-300%.

Repeated attempts to get you to see the light of the day have still kept you opaque for a reason!
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Bah! its not them. It's you. I am reading them to understand their POV unlike you who is desperate to use their work for own nefarious purposes.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chetak »

peter wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:{quote="peter"}Honesty is a virtue that is highly appreciated. So long you keep mis-representing I will feel compelled to point out. Whether you like it or not.

I hope you are realizing that on this wide forum your stance is being judged by a lot of people and may do you good to be logical in your arguments.

Hope this helps.{/quote}

How do you expect a liar to do that? I cannot understand why do you want me to agree to the lies you are promoting? Aren't there softer targets? You are biased and as per last time, I understand that you have a vested interest. Your desperation exhibits that.
I guess Saikat, other journalists and a whole slew of BRFites are biased, as per your definition, and somehow you are the only one who is "truthful"?

But the fact remains you have not once condemned that under Antony's watch sub-standard trucks are being sold to Indian army at a great loss to the Indian exchequer. You are still stuck to a loss of 13 crores while other journalists have pointed out Tatra markups range from 100%-300%.

Repeated attempts to get you to see the light of the day have still kept you opaque for a reason!
That's a heavy cross for chackojoseph to bear, no? :)
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Peter - Chetak - jerita - x-y-z. The serial attackers. I have see their performance before.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Eric Leiderman »

Hi Peter Chetak and Jerita, Lay off Chacko, this is his profession, he has to protect his interests , it is his bread and butter.
Keyboard honour and valour are great on forums, It would be debatable how many of us who spout idealistic stuff will do the same when ones back is to the wall, maybe a job on the line, maybe a whole profession. I have been there and I have seen the cyber warriors scuttle for cover when the sh"t hits the fan. Keyboard honour, pride , and valour are just virtual entities. I do not need an answer to this post as I will not be reacting.
Have a nice day.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

Eric Leiderman wrote:Hi Peter Chetak and Jerita, Lay off Chacko, this is his profession, he has to protect his interests , it is his bread and butter.
Keyboard honour and valour are great on forums, It would be debatable how many of us who spout idealistic stuff will do the same when ones back is to the wall, maybe a job on the line, maybe a whole profession. I have been there and I have seen the cyber warriors scuttle for cover when the sh"t hits the fan. Keyboard honour, pride , and valour are just virtual entities. I do not need an answer to this post as I will not be reacting.
Have a nice day.
Hi Eric,
Profession does'nt give any one a free licence to mis-represent facts openly. Chacko repeatedly tries to convey the impression:
a) AKS allowed sale of Tatra trucks under his regime
b) AKS is the only one who finds faults with Tatra trucks while the "army on the border" finds no fault with these trucks
c) That only a 13 crore bribe was paid by Tatra when in fact Tatra has been over charging at the rate of 100-300%.
d) Antony is not corrupt even though he knew about the bad quality of Tatra since 2008 DAC meeting, knew about irregularities in the purchase since 2009, knew about the bribe offer from Tatra to the Chief
of army staff of India since 2010.

More things can be added to the list. I fail to understand, perhaps you know, how someone's profession allows them to behave like this?

Rest of your rant on keyboard valour etc is not worth commenting.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Peter,

Your keyboard rant is also not worth commenting.

My position is still clear

1) Both AKA and VKS are guilty of omission.
2) AKA is not promoting corruption and is not corrupt.
3) Nothing is the case justifies that there is a major disorder. I have cited the reasons above.
4) All equipment have defect and all govt offices work in silos. There is scope in remedial measure.

I don't agree with you a even a bit Peter. You and the other mentioned are exhibiting vested interest. No matter how much you claim that you are on the side of the truth, your true colours show.

You even don't know that it is not 'tatra,' its BEML which charges Army. You haven't even understood what the DAC meeting is mentioned for.

Why don't you reveal your credentials here? Some 'Peter', jerita etc with assumed names. This is not the kind of people who should preach credibility.

Antony is honest. period.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

Honest and incompetent is no better than dishonest. He has not even been able to provide Non Functional Financial Upgradation (NFFU) assured career progression scheme to his officers, something which EVERY other Group A service (defined as a service whose apex grade is 67000-79000) has now got. Armys apex grade is equivalent to Cabinet Secretary, but they still havent received NFFU.

Every civil servant gazetted officer in this country now retires at the grade of a Lieutenant General with equivalent pension, thanks to the NFFU scheme. Only 0.1% service officers receive this privilege. Why have defence officers been stiffed yet again? Because an UNDERSECRETARY in the Ministry of Defence rejected the proposal from the Chiefs of Staff committee, to include Military officers in NFFU, without showing the file to the Defence Secretary even.

So tell me, a man who doesnt know how his own ministry is undermining the armed forces, what good is he as a minister? Totally useless.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Well, the debate is on if he is corrupt or not. he isn't, IMHO.

On your point read the katare's post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 6#p1279436

To cut through the entrenched corruption in govt offices and balancing political dogma's, its a commendable job.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ASPuar »

The question of importance in the final calculus, viz, to the nations security, is not whether he is corrupt or not, it is whether he is discharging his duty effectively or not. Personally, I think not. Most of Antonys anti corruption moves are after the fact, and not proactive.

On the positive side, I will allow, that he has definitely taken a stand, and Im glad of it, that has enraged the lobbyists. This is good. But he has not followed up by strengthening the hand of the armed forces, by raising the morale, and standards of living of his men, by making sure they are not harassed or troubled by vested interests.

Insofar as corruption, etc is concerned, even if he personally is not corrupt (I dont think he is, for the record), he is unable to recognise that the persons he controls, are. He presided over the tenure of Gen Deepak Kapoor, widely regarded as dishonest, even by his own men, before he took office as COAS. Couldnt he have chosen a different man?

The city of Delhi has become a nest of arms agents and spies, who liase with persons in his ministry. Something must be done!
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote: My position is still clear

1) Both AKA and VKS are guilty of omission.
What is VKS's omission? Antony is the only one who has omissions. If he wanted this Tatra thing could have been handed to CBI in 2010 but the "honest" Antony and his followers can't see it.
chackojoseph wrote: 2) AKA is not promoting corruption and is not corrupt.
Antony is corrupt. He was not bothered that his COAS was offered a bribe. Why did'nt he have Tejinder Singh investigated when in fact 2008 DAC meeting and Azad's 2009 letter was already in his posession?
chackojoseph wrote: 3) Nothing is the case justifies that there is a major disorder. I have cited the reasons above.
This is the beauty of being a journalist. You can pontificate all to defend your buddy and could give two hoots to the person who provides you this very freedom to pontificate. Whether his tatra truck stalls or the sterring wheel falls off can't be a concern for you.
chackojoseph wrote: 4) All equipment have defect and all govt offices work in silos. There is scope in remedial measure.
This takes the cake. Look the other way when Army is supplied bad equipment, and then blame it is how the machinery works. You know you do not not much about Army or wars. This is how wars are lost. Height of incompetence.
chackojoseph wrote: I don't agree with you a even a bit Peter. You and the other mentioned are exhibiting vested interest. No matter how much you claim that you are on the side of the truth, your true colours show.
Look it is clear how you lie about General VK Singh repeatedly. So it is you who has vested interest perhaps with some financial strings?
chackojoseph wrote: You even don't know that it is not 'tatra,' its BEML which charges Army. You haven't even understood what the DAC meeting is mentioned for.
For the nth time read the articles linked above. Tatra overcharges BEML who pass on the overcharge along with a surcharge to the army.
Do you think Tatra is made of saints?
chackojoseph wrote: Why don't you reveal your credentials here? Some 'Peter', jerita etc with assumed names. This is not the kind of people who should preach credibility.

Antony is honest. period.
Antony is dishonest and an equal of Krishna Menon. No less.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Peter,

I have noted your arguments and as before I don't find them of value. I am ending this argument with you and your pack.

Antony is a honest man. :D
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:Peter,

I have noted your arguments and as before I don't find them of value. I am ending this argument with you and your pack.

Antony is a honest man. :D
You meant Antony is "an" honest man? No dear neither him nor his pontificating followers are honest.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

That's your opinion. It's nice to know.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by alexis »

I understand that Tatra trucks are sold to Army at a markup by BEML. Tatra is also charging higher to BEML than they are sellin in Europe. So there is a loss to exchequer. MOD, BEML officials and army officials must be involved in this scam.

However, i am more concerned about the quality of Tatra trucks. VKS says that they are defective while DRDO says they are good. I am confused!

[html] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 265845.ece [/html]
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

alexis wrote:I understand that Tatra trucks are sold to Army at a markup by BEML. Tatra is also charging higher to BEML than they are sellin in Europe. So there is a loss to exchequer. MOD, BEML officials and army officials must be involved in this scam.

However, i am more concerned about the quality of Tatra trucks. VKS says that they are defective while DRDO says they are good. I am confused!

[html] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 265845.ece [/html]
There is no confusion really. When you go to buy a car would the car dealership ever tell you the car is defective?

You would know the defects only after you drive the car.

DRDO/BEML are not the users of the trucks.

Army , IAF is. Read earlier links on various examples of how Tatra trucks are breaking down in the field for both IA and IAF and the fact Antony was apprised of it in the DAC meeting in 2008. He has not done anything about it in the last 4 years speaks volumes about the gentleman.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by KiranM »

alexis wrote:I understand that Tatra trucks are sold to Army at a markup by BEML. Tatra is also charging higher to BEML than they are sellin in Europe. So there is a loss to exchequer. MOD, BEML officials and army officials must be involved in this scam.

However, i am more concerned about the quality of Tatra trucks. VKS says that they are defective while DRDO says they are good. I am confused!

[html] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 265845.ece [/html]
Does DRDO flog Tatra trucks as much as IA and across all terrain/ situations? If not then their assertion that Tatra trucks are good should be seen as applicable only for the situation they work with.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Controversy over age could have been avoided, say Indian Army chief

Indian Army chief General V.K. Singh on Tuesday said he wished the controversy over his age could have been avoided.

Asked what he feels over the issue, sad or angry, the general replied: "I want to look at it as something that could have been avoided." Asked by who, he shot back: "By everybody."

Gen Singh arrived here on a two-day visit Monday and attended the release of a book, "North-East Trilogy", written by Dipti Bhalla and Kunal Verma.

The book was released by Kerala Chief Minister Oommen Chandy.

In response to another question, Gen Singh said corruption had always been a major issue and people were fighting corruption everywhere.

"Our thrust is in transparency and probity and to ensure middlemen's wrong practices are checked. Defects in purchases ... the army takes action and we ensure it is corrected.

"Changes in the entire system are required," he added.
Last edited by Jagan on 31 May 2012 05:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No smilies please
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

KiranM wrote:Does DRDO flog Tatra trucks as much as IA and across all terrain/ situations? If not then their assertion that Tatra trucks are good should be seen as applicable only for the situation they work with.
Just out of curiosity. How much DRDO flogs the trucks?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

chackojoseph wrote:Controversy over age could have been avoided, say Indian Army chief

Indian Army chief General V.K. Singh on Tuesday said he wished the controversy over his age could have been avoided.

Asked what he feels over the issue, sad or angry, the general replied: "I want to look at it as something that could have been avoided." Asked by who, he shot back: "By everybody." :rotfl:
What is there to laugh about? An awesome general has been handed a raw deal by a corrupt govt and incompetent judge and somehow that is worth laughing about?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by ramana »

Peter and Chackojoseph, Please desist from replying to each other. No good puropse is served.

Thanks,

ramana
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by yantra »

Sorry if this was posted before. Any details on this further?

India to raise 'offensive' corps to tackle threat from China

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 053744.cms
"Now we have given a new directive to our armed forces to meet the new challenges in context of the new threat perception faced by the country," he said. Antony said, "After analysis of the threat perception, we have found that the picture is problematic. We will need to have a second look at the defence budget.... "We have been given Rs 1.93 lakh crore this year but as per the estimated requirement of the armed forces, we would want Rs 2.39 lakh crore. We want Rs 45,716 crore more. I have asked the Government to provide us more money."

The minister was replying to a discussion on the performance of his ministry in the Rajya Sabha. On steps taken by the Government to strengthen defence capabilities, Antony said, "Under 12th Defence Plan, we have sent a proposal to Finance Ministry to raise an offensive Corps with two special divisions and it is in final stages. The force-level has been increased substantially."
Why this sudden elevation of threat perception?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Pratyush »

Defence ministry seeks additional outlay of Rs. 45k cr

What has changed? That wasnt present in the past and is making the GOI, nervous.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

ramana wrote:Peter and Chackojoseph, Please desist from replying to each other. No good puropse is served.

Thanks,

ramana
Point taken. Though how do we stop chacko from maligning the COAS?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by peter »

Pratyush wrote:Defence ministry seeks additional outlay of Rs. 45k cr

What has changed? That wasnt present in the past and is making the GOI, nervous.
The only change is General VKS's letter!
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Army operationally prepared to meet any contingency: VK Singh

Speaking about defence preparedness of the country, the Army Chief said, "With great confidence, I can say that operationally we are prepared to take on any contingency that can arise."
chackojoseph wrote:Controversy over age could have been avoided, say Indian Army chief

Indian Army chief General V.K. Singh on Tuesday said he wished the controversy over his age could have been avoided.

Asked what he feels over the issue, sad or angry, the general replied: "I want to look at it as something that could have been avoided." Asked by who, he shot back: "By everybody."
Any ideas why the change in heart?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Kapil »

What would you rather have him say Chacko?

A reasonable person will always seek to avoid conflict; this is what the Gen is implying.

Don't distort his message.
Please.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Kapil,

How did I distort his message?
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by chackojoseph »

Implied? I asked why this change of heart? I have not implied. if there is no change of heart, then it can be told. After all words like change of heart. defence minister got embarrassed etc are creations and it expresses a way of putting thing across. These words convey a meaning of what is meant to be said.

The entire thread, from moons back was how VKS is a direct no nonsense person. Now Kapil has to say that a 'reasonable man to avoid conflict.' He (VKS) did initiate the (although these exists without his creation) conflict and escalation.
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Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

Post by Ashutosh Malik »

Mr. Joseph does seem to have a bee in his bonnet with respect to Gen. Singh.

So when Gen. Singh points out the issues in equipment, was it his personal agenda? Or does it help the nation? Should he not do it in a private communication to the PM and Defence Minister?

The leakage is another matter, and the IB seems to suggest that it wasn't Gen. Singh who leaked it? So what gives?

And when Gen. Singh says now that operationally we are prepared, he could very well imply that given the current level of resources we are prepared. Should he now go about saying that we are not prepared, everytime?

What can be more pathetic than discussing this issue over and over again when there is nothing to be gained anymore.

Best regards,
Ashutosh
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