Bharat Rakshak

Can we stop bringing in tangential arguments here? What has all this got to do with Sahayak system? doe the report say anything about Sahayak misbehaving or anything of the sort? There is no need to flame a discussion with unrelated arguments.

Officers-jawans clash in Ladakh not mutiny: Army


Ladakh, May 12 (IBNS):

Army officers and jawans of an artillery unit clashed at the Mahe Field Ranges in Ladakh Region during the field firing exercise of Field Regiment on Thursday.

"The entire episode can at worst be seen as an isolated act of indiscipline. It can in no way be termed as mutiny," read a media statement issued by Amy spokesperson Colonel Jagdeep Dahiya on Saturday.

"No arms and ammunition have been used by anybody. The armoury has not been captured by the troops as is being wrongly reported."

"Misinterpretation and mischievous reporting to sensationalise the incident by some sections of print and electronic media need to be dispelled," he said.

Dahiya said the Brigade Commander of the Artillery Brigade and General Officer Commanding of the Division interacted with the troops on Friday.

"The situation was brought well under control and the Regiment is being moved back from ranges to its location with effect from 12 May 2012," said the spokesperson.

"A Court of Inquiry to investigate into the circumstances under which the incident took place has commenced," he said.

"The Court of Inquiry will identify the complicity of the officers and men. However, nobody has been removed, dismissed or suspended," said Dahiya.

"Col P Kadam, the Commanding Officer was not assaulted by other officers, as has been wrongly reported. The CO as well as Maj AK Sharma and Sepoy Suman Ghosh who suffered superficial injuries, have been given medical treatment," he said.

"The situation is well under control," said the Army spokesperson.

Lots of contradictions in the media and army version. Wait and see, could be the sahayak story is also a fraud.

The Army also denied that the stand-off was still in progress with the jawans, who got agitated after sepoy Suman Ghosh was mercilessly thrashed by young officers for daring to complain about the behaviour of a major's wife during the firing training camp at the Mahe ranges.

Earlier, an extensive study conducted into the high suicide rate in the 1.13-million-strong Army by the Defence Institute of Psychological Research had held that "perceived humiliation and harassment" at the hands of their superiors often served as the final "trigger" for jawans to take their own lives.

A reconstruction of what transpired at the Army’s Mahi firing range in Nyoma, around 150 km from Leh, on Thursday:

* The 226 Field Regiment had moved from Darbuk to the range for firing practice, and officers and men were staying in temporary tents. However, in a breach of rules, at least five officers allegedly also had their wives accompanying them. While families are usually invited for firing demos of artillery guns, wives and children are strictly not allowed at a firing practice session. Even at Darbuk, only a limited number of families are allowed, given that it is a designated “field area”. The Army says the wives were staying at a nearby GREF (General Reserve Engineer Force) camp.

* On Thursday, as the firing practice was on, the regiment barber, identified as Suman Ghosh, is believed to have entered a major’s tent. The sequence of events is unclear, but a version says that on seeing the officer’s wife in the tent, Ghosh ran out in alarm. Following this, the wife allegedly created a furore.

* The major, along with two other officers, is believed to have then thrashed Ghosh, as well as denied him medical aid. This was a second breach of rules as in such cases, disciplinary action is taken while physical assault is forbidden. However, the matter was believed to have been sorted out following the intervention of Commanding Officer Kadam. Ghosh was sent for medical care to a nearby field hospital.

* In the evening though, things took an ugly turn when all the soldiers of the regiment (close to 500) returned to the barracks. A strong rumour spread that Ghosh had died after the severe beating. In a third violation of rules, the subedar major of the battalion — who is the representative of the troops — failed to quell these rumours.

* Convinced that Ghosh had died, a group of soldiers went to the temporary officer’s mess and created a ruckus. As things started getting out of control and physical, Col Kadam, who was staying at the GREF camp, rushed to the spot to calm the troops. Here is when the fourth breach of discipline took place. Even as Kadam was reasoning with the troops, he was hit on the head by a stone thrown by one of the soldiers.

* A fight then broke out between the officers and men. The temporary mess is believed to have been vandalised with some fittings being burnt down by the soldiers. However, weapons are not believed to have been used.

* Officers of the unit fled from the spot, some rushing to their wives. At least two wives are believed to have been “rescued” by personnel from the GREF camp, fearing the anger of the jawans. By evening, all the officers had been accounted for, with one having fled to an Army camp in Chushul.

* By late evening, as reports of the violence reached senior officers, troops were rushed from a nearby Rajputana Rifles regiment camp. While rumours of the soldiers seizing the armoury were found to be untrue, the Raj Rif secured the artillery guns of the unit. By Friday morning, normalcy had been restored as senior officers rushed to the spot.

A shaken-up Army is now trying to get things on track. Col Yogi Sheoran, who commanded the regiment before Kadam and is believed to have a good rapport with the troops, has been rushed to the unit. The Army denied that Kadam had been attacked by fellow officers. The commander of the Nimu-based 3 Artillery Brigade was also sent to the Nyoma camp.

While the unit was to earlier stay at Mahi for a month with its artillery, the firing practice has now been cancelled and all temporary shelters set up near the Nyoma range dismantled.

The Army court of inquiry will be headed by an officer of the rank of Brigadier or above. Given the serious breach of disciple, strict action, including court martial, is likely. A preliminary report on the incident has already been forwarded by the 3 Division 14 Corps. Incidentally, the 226 Field Regiment has had disciplinary problems in the past too. An inquiry had been ordered into allegations against the commanding officer of the same unit while it was deployed on the western frontier during Operation Parakram, following a series of anonymous letters.

Early on Saturday, highly-placed military sources told The Hindu, Leh-based 14 Corps Commander Lieutenant-General Ravi Dastane finally hammered out a deal with the soldiers — a deal which promises officers who used beatings against enlisted men will be punished, in return for the soldiers relocating to their base at Thiksey.

In New Delhi, the Army Headquarters described the clash — the worst of its kind since some units mutinied in 1984 — as “an incident of indiscipline,” not a mutiny. The Army has set up a court to inquire into the incident.

Officers, not Gentlemen?

Late on Thursday evening, after the 226 Field Regiment finished a firing-practice session with their 105-millimetre mountain guns in the Mahé range near Nyoma, witnesses saw a fracas break out. Major A.K. Sharma, one of the unit's officers, claimed his wife was insulted by the sahayak. A highly placed source at 14 Corps Headquarters told The Hindu that the officer's wife complained that Ghosh waked into her room without knocking while she was having a shower.

The sahayak, witnesses told The Hindu, was dragged into the Beacon ground near the range, and beaten up. Major Ankur Tewari, Major Kapil Malik, Major Thomas Verghese, Major A.D. Kanade and Major Sharma himself joined in the beating, documents seen by The Hindu say.

From the witnesses' account, it is clear the men of the 226 Field Regiment did nothing — until it became clear Ghosh had suffered significant injuries. Major Kanade, however, allegedly refused to allow the men to move Ghosh to a medical facility, perhaps fearing it would lead to an internal inquiry on his conduct.

The irate men then began arguing with the officers; witnesses say there was a heated argument, accompanied by some pushing and shoving.

226 Field Regiment commander Colonel Prasad Kadam intervened, reprimanding the officers for their conduct — only to be allegedly assaulted by the five.

The Majors, witnesses said, then fled as troops arrived, saving Colonel Kadam.

Fearing attack by other Army units, some men barricaded themselves inside the quarter-guard, housing the armoury, while others marched into the town shouting Bharat Mata ki Jai [“Long Live India”]. Major Sharma was captured and beaten up; the men moved him to hospital thereafter.

Early on Friday morning, Major-General A.L. Chavan, commander of the Leh-based 3 Infantry Division, arrived in Nyoma and began negotiating with the troops, promising them that force would not be used.

Theres a clear difference in chindus reporting and IE's report.

If chindu report is false(regarding officers attacking CO) the chindu should be taken to task.

The 30,000-odd men serving as sahayaks are expected not just to ensure that their officers' uniforms are in order and their personal comfort is cared for, but ferry their children to school and help with their spouses' shopping.

The batman system was long abandoned in the British Army, from which India drew it; even Pakistan dropped the institution in 2004. In India, however, it remains

The 30,000-odd men serving as sahayaks are expected not just to ensure that their officers' uniforms are in order and their personal comfort is cared for, but ferry their children to school and help with their spouses' shopping.

The batman system was long abandoned in the British Army, from which India drew it; even Pakistan dropped the institution in 2004. In India, however, it remains

See any newly minted IPS officer, and observe how many orderlies he has. Observe how many orderlies an ITBP, BSF, or CRPF officer has. Then ask why is an orderly a sin in the Army, and not in these organisations? And yes I know you will say any number of things, but if you are asking the army officer to give up his sahayak, he will definitely ask why you didnt ask anyone else to do so, and only singled him out for this withdrawal of privilege.

I don't think you actually understand the sahayak system at all. He doesn't travel with the family or even the officer in peace stations.

n Thursday, as the firing practice was on, the regiment barber, identified as Suman Ghosh, is believed to have entered a major’s tent. The sequence of events is unclear, but a version says that on seeing the officer’s wife in the tent, Ghosh ran out in alarm. Following this, the wife allegedly created a furore.

The British army still has orderlies in the Household division.

The issue is not that IPS officers et al have orderlies. Or even that armed forces officers have orderlies.

The issue is having a full trained soldier (at the very least an infantry grunt) made to do a servant's work (which in practice is what happens - whatever the code says). It is a criminal waste of resources - selecting, training, grooming and paying for a warrior/future leaders and then using them as a batman. The system is indefensible and outmoded.

What is currently being advocated - having a adjunct civilian, non-uniformed helper force to largely take over the Sahayak duties is the way to go.

As for the Leh clash, I can but smile at jimmy's post. I can well imagine the posts from the Usual Suspects, and how different they would be.

From Mandeep Singh Bajwa on India-Pakistan military exercises Indian Army corps on the Pakistan front used to exercise every 2-3 years, but now the tempo has accelerated to once every year and the trend has become multi-corps exercises. In India the HQ above corps is the Command, which is both a geographical and a tactical arrangement. There are no field army HQs, though the matter comes up for discussion from time-to-time.

Before Cold Start, the army on the Pakistan front was divided into strike and holding corps. So XV, XVI, XI, X, and XII Corps were holding, and I, II and XXI were strike. The holding corps defensively protected their area of the front. Now all corps are to go on the offensive; indeed, most of Cold Start will be conducted by the former holding corps. As part of the offensive doctrine - a major change because since 1947 India has used the defensive-offensive configuration - the assumption is a war will be short. There will be neither time for mobilization, nor for learning on the job.

Accordingly, there has been a steady shift of formations closer to the front as a way of reducing mobilization time. The process is slow, because creating new permanent bases is not just expensive, in a crowded country like India land for new bases is not easily obtained. Equally, under Cold Start, there is to be no waiting for strike formations to concentrate at the front. The corps in place (now XV, XVI, IX, XI, X, and XII, from north to south) are to begin offensives at very short notice. The offensives will be conducted by eight armor battle groups, each of brigade size and heavily reinforced, each operating on a separate axis.

If the war is short, the battle groups will seize territory out to 30-km before shifting to the defensive. If the war continues, the three strike corps will enter play. Each of the three Pakistan-front plains commands - Western, South Western, and Southern - has an assigned strike corps. From north to south these are I, II, and XXI Corps.

The new posture requires considerably higher readiness, which is the reason for the increased tempo of exercises. I Strike and X Corps in South Western Command have finished an exercise, and now all of Western Command - II Strike, IX and XI Corps - is starting an exercise. It may be noted that by staging the exercise in May, at a time of maximum heat, the Indian Army is giving notice there is no more "fighting season". In the past this was the late fall/winter/spring. Now India is prepared to fight in the summer. The monsoon is still off limits because the torrential rains turn the ground to mush so that even tracked vehicles get into trouble.

Similarly, India is now prepared to go on the offensive in the mountains even in the dead of winter.

Pakistan, naturally, has not been sitting back passively. Despite its limited resources it has also stepped up its exercise tempo. Units from its I Strike plus X Corps and II Strike plus XXXI Corps have finished training at the ranges. A major exercise for IV Corps (Lahore) designed specifically to respond to a Cold Start grab is planned soon.

3. Such reporting has had wide airing. Does noone think that this will have a negative effect on the army nationwide? Such heinously irresponsible reporting about an event on which there isnt full information? People like Praveen Swami should be crucified.

NEW DELHI: Exorbitant prices to severe shortcomings in indigenization may not be limited to just Tatra vehicles supplied to the Army by Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), according to Army sources and internal assessments.

The supply of Armoured Recovery Vehicle (ARV) WZT-3 to the Indian Army by BEML suffers from similar issues, including steep prices for spare parts and lack of efforts to indigenize the vehicle. ARV WZT-3, supplied by Bumar of Poland, is based on a T-72 tank chassis and was introduced in service more than a decade ago.

A detailed assessment shows that BEML has been charging the Army exorbitant rates for spare parts for the vehicle. The BEML offer is sometimes 20 to 30 times more than the estimated rates based on pervious receipts. For example, 'non-return valve', for which the estimated rate is Rs 1,608.81, was supplied by BEML at Rs 39,550 in 2008-09. The 'small bolts for track links', of which the estimated rate was Rs 424.70, was sold by BEML at Rs 15,480 in the same year. A mere 'nut in the set', estimated to cost Rs 192.08, was sold at Rs 5,505.

BEML also failed to indigenize the vehicle significantly, leading to almost complete dependence on the Polish supplier.

Army sources said the "exorbitant rates" for spare parts was going to cause serious problems because the overhaul of these ARVs is becoming due. As a result, the need for spare parts will shoot up. Source said BEML will not be able to meet the increased requirements because "BEML has not set up any manufacturing facility so far, and most of the items demanded by us are imported by the defence public sector unit," a source said.

1. The issue is very much so, that how can you ask the army officer to give up his orderly, when others will not? Why is the media, and also some commenters on this forum so keen to ask for the army officers orderly to be removed, but are silent when it comes to the orderlies of others? Probably because they (the media) never want to take panga with the policewallahs.

2. The trained soldier is rotated in and out of these duties. And he attends to the duties of a rifleman in addition to orderly duties. He does not become a fulltime 'servant'.

3. This adjunct civilian helper idea had already been tried, long before. The Non Combatants, Enrolled demanded to be combatised, because they were serving in field areas, and did not want to be vulnerable in the event of war. FM Manekshaw approved their combatisation as far as I am aware.

4. Lastly, the fact that both some persons in the media, and some persons here have an axe to grind, is evident from how some persons jumped on the sahayak issue like vultures, but now that its proven that there was no sahayak angle, are trying to change the topic to, "anyway, sahayaks are bad".

Leave the army alone. They know how to handle their own affairs, and will do so.

Look at this forum. Chacko repeatedly maligned/mis-represented what General VKS did. Despite having contrary information in the public domain in the same very thread which he did not bother checking.

Unless some of these incompetent / irresponsible journalists are taken to courts and courts order them to either pay up for damaging somebody's reputation or takes away their ability to be reporters these guys and gals are not going to listen.

People would complain about them as well if trained clerks and secretaries were expected to moonlight as the IPS officers "Sahayak" part time.

Why is trained soldier (on whom we spend a hell of a lot more money than on the average police pandu) serving in this role at all?

How exactly were they vulnerable and what protection did combatisation offer? Perhaps there are very good reasons for the Sahayak system as it is, that is worth the abuse the system gets. If so can you share them please.

What you say might be very true, but it still remains an ad hominem.

I will agree with you that the army experience and expertise dwarfs mine and one should be circumspect in second guessing professionals. But this is my army paid for with my money and they are not above criticism. What next leave police, Neta, PSU people alone to handle their own affairs?

Sir, I have got family friends in the forces. Let us leave it at that. Also I request you to read up earlier posts when some members have clearly written down the mis-use of this system in detail.

They say "a little learning is a dangerous thing". My father is from the infantry and the best I can say is that I have a decent if incomplete understanding of infantry battalions and brigades. I have "family friends in the Army" does not give you an understanding of the Army. It gives you a very limited window into a particular officer in a particular branch of the Army. This to generalize conduct in a million man army. It's especially interesting coming from a person who spends his time strenuously defending the police and asking people not to draw general conclusions based on the conduct of a few.

First of all, drop the sanctimonious "we".

Secondly, do tell me, how much is spent on the average soldier, and how much on average pandu, please? Give me the benefit of your vast fiscal knowledge.

Not sure what youre asking. If youre not sure how being unarmed and untrained, yet stationed in insurgency areas, etc is dangerous then Im not sure how I can educate you.

What I say is true, and the attacks on the army are beginning to turn into an ad hominem.

My dear fellow, the average army soldier pays taxes just like you. Unless you've started paying such vast sums of tax money that you are single handedly funding the entire army, please dont tell me how "your money" is funding the whole operation.

These soldiers also protect this nation state, and ensure its safety so that you can earn your salary, income, whatever. Much better that you question why "your money" is being stolen every day by Babus, Pandus, etc.

But you wont. Because you're scared of them. The moment you or I tell the cop in nearest thana that it is run with "my money", he'll show us how "our money" also paid for the lathi that is delivering a thrashing to you or me. The babu will show you how much he appreciates "your money", and how you step outside the door that your money paid for, and wait till kingdom come for your building permission to come through, or you marriage certificate, or your drivers license, or your passport. But go ahead. Be the great protector of "our money", old boy. After all, the army is an easy target for your ilk. Much easier than the average clerk or pandu.

In the interim, you can tell me why you have no right to question the IB/RAW's use of "your money"? Just because "your money" paid for the army

I'll bet not 10 paise from your taxes went to the army, given the vast social sector expenditure), does it belong to you? It doesnt.

सूरतगढ़ के रेगिस्तान में सैन्याभ्यास में करीब 50 हजार सैनिक शामिल हुए। इसे शूरवीर नाम दिया गया।

Its treason and Offense against India. Must be jailed and tried under Defence of India Act, Army Act and Officials Secret Act .

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If somebody was interested in treason.. doesn't it seem more beneficial to pass the info silently to PRC/TSP and probably make some money as well? Whats the benefit in leaking it to indian media?

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