Indian Army: News and Discussions 15 Apr 2012

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 06 Jun 2014 19:27

pandyan wrote:that explains some of the posts in rafale thread. non-rafale aircrafts has been chosen/recommended by other circles beyond the IAF/MOD/Govt

AFAIK non rafale aircraft have not been chosen or recommended by anyone in Govt., rather its just my opinion. I still believe Rafale is one expensive piece of bird that will eat through IAF's financial resoruces for a long time to come. For the same amount being spent, we can get better value for money.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 06 Jun 2014 20:28

Yeah, we still remember how you bought 100000000 shares so your support for the yanks is understandable

. It's hard to take you seriously after all the non-sense you peddled on this BRF regarding the F-18.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Jun 2014 23:11

You say training only and then mention Tavors etc???

We could train the SF all we want but then equipping them with crap does nothing.

Anyway - I am guessing there is no open source for your claim so we will let it go

Here is an interesting question about Gen Suhag?

I was told he does not have a staff college degree.

As the saying goes in the Def Services, doing the Staff College is not much of a qualification, but not having it is a disqualification.

If what I heard is true it speaks volumes for the man (good or bad )

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 07 Jun 2014 07:52

^^^
"The officer in question is Lt-Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag, who could not even pass the Staff College in spite of three attempts."

http://www.theweekendleader.com/Opinion ... e-gun.html

so septimus, R&AW, NSA etc are not part of govt ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Jun 2014 08:19

Reading the below provided link. I went WTF, we need to import any fire arm for military use. Why not just let them produce fire arms through the legal route. The innovations, that they will come up, will I am sure beat any foreign vendor.

‘Made in Munger’ AK-47 worries cops with quality like original

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 07 Jun 2014 20:19

rohitvats wrote:BTW - the Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a financial flop big time which will not recover its money. And IIRC, it was financed as part of some loan package (for it and Bandra-Worli Sea Link).

Can you share more details on this Rohit?

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Jun 2014 20:37

Pratyush wrote:Reading the below provided link. I went WTF, we need to import any fire arm for military use. Why not just let them produce fire arms through the legal route. The innovations, that they will come up, will I am sure beat any foreign vendor.

‘Made in Munger’ AK-47 worries cops with quality like original

Yes WTF is right word. Instead of closing entrepreneurial ventures like this we should give them an order of 1 billion AK-47's. All desi made and at fraction of import costs (F*ck off to the import lobby).

Hold them in inventory and chinese goddamn jerk face generals will think twice before stepping a foot in India. Imagine facing a billion armed AK-47 rifle wielding mongrels ! Tibet would have been free long time back if they had armed their population.

Wonder what happened to Tyagi clan. Why are they roaming free? Folks like them should be publicly executed on republic day.

member_23360 · Post by **member_23360** » 08 Jun 2014 01:23

rohitvats wrote:BTW - the Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a financial flop big time which will not recover its money. And IIRC, it was financed as part of some loan package (for it and Bandra-Worli Sea Link).

It's laughable to say that Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a flop, i lived in pune for 2 and half year and knew very well that this road was one of lifeline roads for pune.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 01:38

Rahul M wrote:^^^
"The officer in question is Lt-Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag, who could not even pass the Staff College in spite of three attempts."
http://www.theweekendleader.com/Opinion ... e-gun.html

so septimus, R&AW, NSA etc are not part of govt ?

wonderful.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 01:39

Pratyush wrote:Reading the below provided link. I went WTF, we need to import any fire arm for military use. Why not just let them produce fire arms through the legal route. The innovations, that they will come up, will I am sure beat any foreign vendor.

‘Made in Munger’ AK-47 worries cops with quality like original

Sensationalist stuff. Did they fire it for a 100,000 rounds to state it has a "quality like the original"? Its a danger for sure, and might be deadly for the first few mags, but after that, user beware.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 08 Jun 2014 05:48

akshat.kashyap wrote:
rohitvats wrote:BTW - the Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a financial flop big time which will not recover its money. And IIRC, it was financed as part of some loan package (for it and Bandra-Worli Sea Link).
It's laughable to say that Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a flop, i lived in pune for 2 and half year and knew very well that this road was one of lifeline roads for pune.

That is besides the point. What Rohit is saying is that the investment was not recovered through tolls and such. The expressway is indeed a very crucial route, but not all public infrastructure projects are able to recover the initial investment. In fact, very few do.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Jun 2014 13:49

Karan M wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Reading the below provided link. I went WTF, we need to import any fire arm for military use. Why not just let them produce fire arms through the legal route. The innovations, that they will come up, will I am sure beat any foreign vendor.

‘Made in Munger’ AK-47 worries cops with quality like original
Sensationalist stuff. Did they fire it for a 100,000 rounds to state it has a "quality like the original"? Its a danger for sure, and might be deadly for the first few mags, but after that, user beware.

The AK 47 was designed for ease of production and uses pressed steel components mostly. Any reasonably equipped small workshop should be able to make it.

I think that many individual components may be outsourced to local unsuspecting SMEs and assembled at another place.

Some critical components whose end use cannot be obviously hidden or disguised may be produced by the kingpins.

just my two paise

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 08 Jun 2014 18:48

Rahul M wrote:^^^
"The officer in question is Lt-Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag, who could not even pass the Staff College in spite of three attempts."
http://www.theweekendleader.com/Opinion ... e-gun.html

So, which army chief promoted him to Lt Gen and appointed him a Corp Commander? Its high time that the infighting in the top echelons of the army ceased. If the senior commanders don't show each other respect, their juniors will also stop respecting them.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2014 09:41

akshat.kashyap wrote:
rohitvats wrote:BTW - the Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a financial flop big time which will not recover its money. And IIRC, it was financed as part of some loan package (for it and Bandra-Worli Sea Link).
It's laughable to say that Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a flop, i lived in pune for 2 and half year and knew very well that this road was one of lifeline roads for pune.

Think before you decide to attack your keyboard.

I'm not talking about utility of Pune-Mumbai Expressway - I've done enough Mumbai-Pune trips on it - I'm talking about the financial viability of the project. It was established long back in early 2000s that the project is financially not feasible - the toll charges simply don't cover the cost incurred on the project. And then there is another big reason - the National Highway connecting Pune Mumbai was itself made 8 lane IIRC - this has also meant that the whole hog of traffic did not transfer to Expressway.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2014 09:43

pushkar.bhat wrote:
rohitvats wrote:BTW - the Mumbai-Pune Expressway is a financial flop big time which will not recover its money. And IIRC, it was financed as part of some loan package (for it and Bandra-Worli Sea Link).
Can you share more details on this Rohit?

There is a detailed study on the topic by a professor from NICMAR - this was done in 2002-2003 I think. The project has faced serious issues with increase in toll charges - IIRC, it continues to be a hot-potato.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Jun 2014 09:49

pandyan wrote:It is the total economic output that matters. toll based revenue is more like for managing and maintaining the roads and not necessarily to recoup the construction costs. that cost is covered by various taxes that people and businesses pay for infrastructure services.

This is going way OT for this thread - Your argument holds if the project is planned from word GO with such an understanding. For example, many projects have concept of Viable Gap Funding (VGF) - where the private party under PPP gives a figure for support they want from government because the project is otherwise unviable. And the party quoting lowest VGF gets the project.

But it was not the case with this particular project. It was expected to cover the money in 30-year period from toll.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Jun 2014 10:06

[quote="rohitvats"And then there is another big reason - the National Highway connecting Pune Mumbai was itself made 8 lane IIRC - this has also meant that the whole hog of traffic did not transfer to Expressway.[/quote]

That happened much later. For very many years, it was the old two laned one.

Second, if the expressway did not make financial sense, if the project has gone to Reliance, which was the *lowest* bidder, it would have cost double. At least that's what I remember.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 10 Jun 2014 03:18

V K Singh’s ban on Suhag premeditated, illegal: Govt tells SC

Dennis · Post by **Dennis** » 10 Jun 2014 21:29

X-post from the Siachen thread.

Article posted by ADGPI, Indian Army on their facebook page:

Rope
by Capt. Raghu Raman, first published in the Infantry Journal in 1995.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jun 2014 03:26

V K Singh, now Minister, slams next Army Chief

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jun 2014 08:55

^^^Where exactly is MOD going by filing that affidavit in the SC with such strong and harsh words? Is AJ incompetent not to understand the import of such an affidavit on VKS's position in the government or is he a party to this nonsense? As far as I can see, VKS's position in untenable now and opposition will go hammer and tongs at him.

Something is seriously wrong here.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 11 Jun 2014 09:06

Indeed. To get their own minister into such a situation shows either or both of the following:

1) Lack of information being shared with the Minister of Defence
2) MOD chaps still bent on embarrassing one of the Ministers in GOI, and as a result the Govt of India itself

Either way this cannot be brushed aside.

Best regards.

member_25399 · Post by **member_25399** » 11 Jun 2014 09:27

^^^^
AJ is a very clever and smart politician. I doubt the fact that he was in the dark about the content of the affidavit. What remains to be seen is what is the govt try to achieve by this ?
On a another note, the kind of centralized govt. machinery that NaMo is trying to create, was he aware that one of his ministers is going to be shamed.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jun 2014 09:38

Jaitley seeks explanation on affidavit, Congress asks for Gen Singh's resignation

Union Defence Minister Arun Jaitley has sought an explanation from senior officials in his ministry on how passages imputing motives to former Army Chief – and now MoS for the north east, external affairs and overseas affairs – V K Singh were part of an affidavit filed in the Supreme Court on June 4, shortly after the BJP-led NDA government assumed office.
...
...
While senior BJP sources said that since General Suhag was already Army Chief-designate when the Modi government took over, it did not wish to undermine his position as that would demoralise the army, it now appears that when the affidavit was filed in response to an appeal filed in the Supreme Court by Lt. General Ravi Dastane against an order passed by the Armed Forces Tribunal on September 6, 2013, clearing General Suhag of the charges made by General V K Singh, the defence ministry had not just gone with the line of the previous UPA government, but used very harsh language against him.

The affidavit accuses General V K Singh of taking an “illegal, premeditated” course to stall the promotion of Chief-designate Lt. General Dalbir Singh Suhag, as Army Commander of Eastern Command in 2012 ( something that would put him in line for Army Chief) by citing “certain lapses in the chain of command” concerning an intelligence operation in Dimapur.
...
...

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jun 2014 09:40

Could be a turf war btw politician vs. Babu. civil service showing who is boss? The army man VKS is squarely caught in the middle. Sore test for namo, it will be interesting to see how/if he can get the govt out of this one. My hope is that he can put babudom in its place.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Jun 2014 09:51

Now NaMo must make VK Singh the defence minister to send a strong message to these defence ministry babu$hits:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/j ... 101750.ece

Jaitley seeks explanation on affidavit, Congress asks for Gen Singh's resignation

Union Defence Minister Arun Jaitley has sought an explanation from senior officials in his ministry on how passages imputing motives to former Army Chief – and now MoS for the north east, external affairs and overseas affairs – V K Singh were part of an affidavit filed in the Supreme Court on June 4, shortly after the BJP-led NDA government assumed office.

The Congress, meanwhile, seized on the embarrassing contents of the affidavit and demanded General V K Singh’s resignation from the union council of ministers, saying the NDA government's affidavit on the issue of Lt Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag's promotion to the post of Army Chief was an expression of "no confidence" in him.

``The minister cannot remain in the council of ministers,” Congress spokesperson Abhishek Singhvi told journalists, adding, “It's a matter of detail whether he is removed or he resigns.”

Indeed, the fact that the affidavit filed by the defence ministry has indicted General Singh for violating the principles of natural justice and resorting to “unjust” means to clamp a disciplinary and vigilance ban on General Suhag has come as a major embarrassment for the Modi government.

While senior BJP sources said that since General Suhag was already Army Chief-designate when the Modi government took over, it did not wish to undermine his position as that would demoralise the army, it now appears that when the affidavit was filed in response to an appeal filed in the Supreme Court by Lt. General Ravi Dastane against an order passed by the Armed Forces Tribunal on September 6, 2013, clearing General Suhag of the charges made by General V K Singh, the defence ministry had not just gone with the line of the previous UPA government, but used very harsh language against him.

The affidavit accuses General V K Singh of taking an “illegal, premeditated” course to stall the promotion of Chief-designate Lt. General Dalbir Singh Suhag, as Army Commander of Eastern Command in 2012 ( something that would put him in line for Army Chief) by citing “certain lapses in the chain of command” concerning an intelligence operation in Dimapur.

The affidavit also says that General V K Singh had directed administrative action against General Suhag even though a Court of Inquiry proceedings found no “lapse or blame” on the latter's part. The affidavit repeatedly said that General Suhag was on annual leave and not in Dimapur at the time of the incident.

The ministry highlights the fact that General Suhag was given only seven days' time to show cause against the ban imposed on May 19, 2012, shortly after the Defence Minister independently approved General Suhag's name as Army Commander and forwarded the proposal to the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet.

It was finally left to General Bikram Singh, the current army Chief, to lift the ban in June 2012, merely a week after he took over from General V.K. Singh.

Closing the inquiry on June 7, 2012, the affidavit revealed how the ban and issue of show cause notice was “without merit, illegal, pre-meditated and against the principles of natural justice, and hence closed after consideration of case by the new COAS (Chief of Army Staff), who succeeded Gen. V.K. Singh”.

When General V.K. Singh’s spokesperson was contacted, he said that that as a MoS he is “out of the picture” as far as defence matters are concerned and would prefer to talk about issues concerning only his ministry portfolios.

This development is part of an appeal filed by Lt. General Ravi Dastane against an order passed by the Armed Forces Tribunal on September 6, 2013, dismissing his claims that the Army Chief had shown “undue hurry” to close the case against General Suhag due to favouritism.

The appeal is scheduled for hearing in September later this year before the Supreme Court, posing the problem whether it would become infructuous once General Suhag takes over as Army Chief on July 31.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 11 Jun 2014 10:00

Something is seriously amiss here, following possibilities come to mind,

1. Powerful MoD Babu clique still loyal to old govt taking advantage of overloading of AJ and causing this embarrassment.
2. Planned activity by AJ and other BJP ministers as revenge for giving a newcomer BJP member a MoS berth. Could even be that AJ was left in dark and was not involved.
3. Gen VK Singh would have gotten into tiff with the new govt and govt as a whole putting him in his place.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jun 2014 10:01

DJ, That would certainly be a jhapad. But they will have to probly get another army chief in place of suhag. In fact they might have placed VKS away from defense precisely to avoid such a scenario but takhdeer Kay saamney sab karaye pey paani phir gaya. Modi s reaction to this might certainly set the tone. Hope he puts people in their praaper place.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jun 2014 10:02

IE seems to be gunning for VK Singh. It was the first to break the story, and also prominently has it on its front page on its website. Remember that it was IE that also carried the story of "Coup" by VK Singh. What is IE's agenda?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jun 2014 10:06

Yogi_G wrote:Something is seriously amiss here, following possibilities come to mind,

1. Powerful MoD Babu clique still loyal to old govt taking advantage of overloading of AJ and causing this embarrassment.
2. Planned activity by AJ and other BJP ministers as revenge for giving a newcomer BJP member a MoS berth. Could even be that AJ was left in dark and was not involved.
3. Gen VK Singh would have gotten into tiff with the new govt and govt as a whole putting him in his place.

1-probable, might have much to do with arms lobby, kickback s and such as well
2-unlikely, AJ is supposed to be real tight with Modi
3- possible, will find out soon enough

member_25399 · Post by **member_25399** » 11 Jun 2014 10:11

^^^
As AJ is indeed very tight with modi, and I doubt AJ was in dark about this, In what situation does this places Modi. was he too in the know ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jun 2014 10:16

It might be that AJ is still learning the ropes, so to speak. After all, they have barely been sworn in. And if AJ was in dark, Modi sure was. This might just be the manifestation of the system's resistance to all the shaking up Modi is doing/planning.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jun 2014 10:18

The other side of the coin is of course that Modi as well as AJ knew and this a deliberate move to kick out VKS (Yogi bears point number teen above) Question is, why?

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 11 Jun 2014 10:26

FWIW, The new Indian express print edition today mentions that the affidavit was filed by the MoD after Modi was elected but before BJP assumed office.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jun 2014 10:31

Sridhar K wrote:FWIW, The new Indian express print edition today mentions that the affidavit was filed by the MoD after Modi was elected but before BJP assumed office.

Was it in the south indian edition? Because that is "New Indian Express" which is under different editor and management

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jun 2014 10:46

Revenge of the baboos.

They are conniving and uncontrollable babuturds

srin · Post by **srin** » 11 Jun 2014 11:03

Hmm - I'd have thought that the said babooze were smarter. The typical modus operandi that has been fairly successful is to hide behind commissions and committees and reports and what not. And having someone else to take blame. They had it very easy with AKA so far.

This is beyond stupid. By using very strong language against an elected MP and minister of the same Govt, they are getting into a battle they can't win. NaMo can't afford to look weak and will be compelled to defend his own minister. There will be big attention inside MoD now and a much needed spring cleaning. I suppose it is a very good thing that this has been brought to head so early in the govt's tenure.

One can only hope ...

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 11 Jun 2014 11:10

putnanja wrote:
Sridhar K wrote:FWIW, The new Indian express print edition today mentions that the affidavit was filed by the MoD after Modi was elected but before BJP assumed office.
Was it in the south indian edition? Because that is "New Indian Express" which is under different editor and management

Yes. It is the Chennai edition. Prabhu Chawla is the editor.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jun 2014 11:30

Sridhar K wrote:
putnanja wrote:
Was it in the south indian edition? Because that is "New Indian Express" which is under different editor and management
Yes. It is the Chennai edition. Prabhu Chawla is the editor.

Prabhu Chawla is slightly pro-Bjp. That is not dupatta's rag

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jun 2014 11:40

This is babu driven stupidity, much like the 100% FDI BS that another bunch of babus ran. And I hope the babus learn who is boss. This sort of stuff is inexcusable.