LCA News and Discussions

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SaiK
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Not possible in defense and strategic sector.
NRao
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Briefing Business Standard the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), P Subramanyam, who runs the LCA programme, explains that nobody realised that setting up a production line was a technology by itself.
:roll: :shock:

In 2012? When this project has been going on for eons? A tech that is unrelated to aviation?

I still think such project totally lack PMs. A good PM would have identified this issue long back.

:(
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by sourab_c »

^ All comes down to lack of accountability. In no other country would such idiocy be tolerated by the taxpayers.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by RoyG »

^^And some on BRF think we can still cling on to this bureaucratic PSU setup which abhors any form of competition.
NRao
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

After some thought I think/feel that at the very least the "Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), P Subramanyam" should resign. And perhaps a few others above him too.

That statement, outright, states that they had no clue to what they were doing. Absolutely no clue.

This is not a matter of rescheduling. This is a waste of time and money.

I bet he will say that he was misquoted.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SaiK wrote:Not possible in defense and strategic sector.
But how about pvt. sector players like TATA , Mahindra , setting up assembly lines and taking over the production part. In fact to encourage pvt. sector we can give this industry 100% Tax rebate. While parts like Radars , avionics etc. being mfrd by PSUs , same can go for Arjuns , artillery, prahaars , INSAS. This creates job oppurtunities + save import money.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Sure. That is the direction we should head. And GoI +labs provide r&d + regulations. It is a long story of we don't draw lines exactly what makes a good project/product.

Niche areas & IPRs must be held by the country in the long run. The policies are not helping. Besides we have setup loophole corrections.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
SaiK wrote:Not possible in defense and strategic sector.
But how about pvt. sector players like TATA , Mahindra , setting up assembly lines and taking over the production part. In fact to encourage pvt. sector we can give this industry 100% Tax rebate. While parts like Radars , avionics etc. being mfrd by PSUs , same can go for Arjuns , artillery, prahaars , INSAS. This creates job oppurtunities + save import money.
It would not matter.

The question that remains on the table is who is going to lead. Would the private sector have to depend on the leadership of the PSU, wait for forms to be filled and signed before moving?

Also, what guarantee do we have that over the years that the Private sector would not be influenced by the Public one and become as morose?

Unless there is an urgency within the entire system - Government and Private, it cannot matter. The weakest link will dictate.

Just imagine they come all the way to the production line thought and THEN think, when there is nothing else really/seriously to think!!!! Amazing. It should kept someone awake some 5 years ago.
SaiK
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

yeup.. ultimately, it does not matter who does it internally, as long as it is done correct to specifications within schedule and budget. the corrections has to happen where it is required.. I am sure, private also will face similar issues when it comes to safety-critical systems in defense.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Eric Leiderman »

Yep, this sould have been planned out a while back.We should have been building the production line by now.
We have enough work to keep two private companies on a production line for a decade.
There will be a steep learning curve, yes there will be mistakes, maybe even a few time overuns.
There will be competition the best form of quality control.

Relaince?? I do not like the ethics of the company, but the project management is world class.

We need a few chakkis turning at the same time the volume and scope is huge.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Manish_Sharma »

NRao wrote:
The question that remains on the table is who is going to lead. Would the private sector have to depend on the leadership of the PSU, wait for forms to be filled and signed before moving?

Why should PSU lead? Pvt. Sector manufactures/assembles its part while PSU does its own independently. For LCA while the whole bodywork, wiring is done by Mahindra/TATA while GE 414 engine gets manufactured under licence by PSU , same with avionics etc. while the efficient pvt. sector assembly line puts everything together just like they do nano/verito/swift.

Also, what guarantee do we have that over the years that the Private sector would not be influenced by the Public one and become as morose?

Well the problems + scandals will continue but what pvt. sector brings to table is better project management. While DRDO , HAL can go on doing their researchwork, new designs etc. when it comes to production let the pvt. sector set up assembly lines.

Unless there is an urgency within the entire system - Government and Private, it cannot matter. The weakest link will dictate.

Just imagine they come all the way to the production line thought and THEN think, when there is nothing else really/seriously to think!!!! Amazing. It should kept someone awake some 5 years ago.

Exactly while the tech development can remain with DRDO etc. the manufacturing can be takenover by pvt. sector, even now if pvt. cos. want they can setup a good line for Tejas in 2 years.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

* 1-2 years, at a very minimum, to design the production line
* Another 2-3 years, at a minimum, to build it - if we can get all the tooling right the first time
* Then production? After about 4-5 years? For the MK 1?

Seriously, my feel, is that bury the MK1 as a tech demo. Nothing wrong with that. Build whatever you can using whatever you have.

BUT, PLEASE, do NOT commit these silly mistakes with the real Tejas the MK2.

I just do not see the MK1 being a viable front line air craft and that is OK, nothing wrong with it. Gulp that ego and move on.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

well, regarding MMRCA, there is nothing in the technology or product that needs to be r&d.. I am sure IAF will pick what is best out there for Rafale-3 or perhaps might include 4 specs into as upgrades with predetermined costs.

when it comes to LCA, there is no firang involvement.. and even if we put private in place of firang, the private has zilch expertise in the area.. so, our setup is all about up-bring of our private sector into the defense space. now the problem with our private sector is that, there is nothing they have done even in the civilian space on r&d and production all from scratch and first principles.. that every private sector product in desh is either a legal copy or SDK.

So, at the most, it has to nurtured by DRDO labs.. labs does R&D and establishes process and measurements for production engineering. Private industries must pitch in for production management and engineering. HAL should provide technical expertise initially, on contract to private sectors as consultants to graduate them. organic development methods needs to be established... but GoI has to think in this direction, and this is what they want.. I doubt.. our past history would only speak about gov controls on every dam thing!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

SaiK,

I did not realize the topic was that difficult to understand.

Who is going to lead?

It has nothing to do with R&D and building anything.

If you red the article on the MMRCA, France has a simple question - what is the role of HAL in the MMRCA (since they will be manufacturing the 108 after France supplies 18). The model is the same. France (for MMRCA) = HAL/ADA (LCA) and HAL (MMRCA) = Private Sector (LCA).

It has to be clarified up front, else you will have mega problems.

Anyways, I am done. Thx.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I would expect a joint leadership in MMRCA's case. But, when you are questioning HAL's role, that means nothing is clarified yet even on the proposals on these matters. So, RFP-Order still has lot of things that needs to be sorted out.

It is quite logical of them (Fr) to take the lead role... but from the local indigenous dev point of view, their firm is 100% France.. so, what is the big deal about localization?

Now, this is not a small thing to consider easy to understand. jmt
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by RKumar »

Flight update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1949 Test Flights Successfully. (29-Nov-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-77,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-5,NP1-4)

to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1951 Test Flights Successfully. (07-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-78,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vishvak »

SaiK wrote:well, regarding MMRCA, there is nothing in the technology or product that needs to be r&d.. I am sure IAF will pick what is best out there for Rafale-3 or perhaps might include 4 specs into as upgrades with predetermined costs.

when it comes to LCA, there is no firang involvement.. and even if we put private in place of firang, the private has zilch expertise in the area.. so, our setup is all about up-bring of our private sector into the defense space. now the problem with our private sector is that, there is nothing they have done even in the civilian space on r&d and production all from scratch and first principles.. that every private sector product in desh is either a legal copy or SDK.

So, at the most, it has to nurtured by DRDO labs.. labs does R&D and establishes process and measurements for production engineering. Private industries must pitch in for production management and engineering. HAL should provide technical expertise initially, on contract to private sectors as consultants to graduate them. organic development methods needs to be established... but GoI has to think in this direction, and this is what they want.. I doubt.. our past history would only speak about gov controls on every dam thing!
Superb post. Considering issues with public and private sector, such clarity is great! I think the production line of Tejas Mk1/2 should be considered as a tough challenge that only the best can take up to begin with and deliver results from position of leadership.

In fact the entire team could be made of professionals from IITs and IIMs alone along with defense forces personnel as a suggestion.

==
By corollary, any team or teams that goes about this should be considered no less strong technically and managerially.
Last edited by vishvak on 10 Dec 2012 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_20453 »

I think confidence for the LCA MK-1/2 will increase with more numbers, the airraft needs to be flying more and more. I think production output has to be increased to around 20+ asap. Also, IAF/GOI can support with large number, in its current form, it flies better than the mirage and will be on par in terms of avionics to the rafale with the LCA Mk-2 and outperform in terms of aerial performance. It is crucial to add more orders. I think an eventual order of around 250 to 300 is a must. Developing an aircraft is one part but to succesfully produce one after the other with consitency and use it, guide it and nurture it throughout it's life cycle is a completly different thing. The small production rate of 8 is too low, we need to be able to add a squadron every year till 2020 with block 2 and further on perhaps a block 3 stealthy variant eventually.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/12/t ... class.html

Some of the improvements mentioned for Mk.2 where music to the ears :D

Sore point is that FOC for MK.1 has moved to 2015, how will it impact the deadline of Mk.2 not sure
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Product development and Product Engineering is entirely two different business beast for the final product. Being successful should be measured by success criteria established before anything begins. If the mission statement is we will ever use GE engines for LCA, so be it. But, have a clear cut plan out there for public eyes.

After all, as a country, we cant just jump start into outer space and conduct a deep space mission. ISRO has taken decades to learn from repeated mistakes that we allowed. There was a necessity and we had the right people manning the missions, and was managed well as we progressed. But, when it comes to LCA it is nothing less than ISRO, meaning if ISRO success is +ve, then if we compare LCA complexities, ISRO style would give a straight away failure results, as the safety critical aspects of LCA is entirely a different beast compared to say a successful GSLV cryo launch. GSLV may be more expensive than LCA, but LCA is more complex than any ISRO mission. Why?

because there is a continuous human-machine involvement here, and success has to be temporal, continuous and eventual. It requires great planning and effort to establish a setup, where GoI regulations are held high, and have only that much enough controls to manage from 50K level, labs given complete freedom to R&D, and HAL should energize on integration of technology front.

Private needs to graduate. They have to come up.. and the best areas for them are management and production engineering. How to enhance the processes, and how to manage it better, how to schedule them and deliver with high quality and precision engineering products, etc.

GoI - LABS - HAL - Private. The only weak link is HAL who might say, if you are dealing with Private, why do we bother? And that is where re-linking should begin.
Last edited by SaiK on 10 Dec 2012 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by nash »

we can make up for the delay if HAL quickly and efficiently absorb all these technology and able to produce 20 aircraft/year from 2017.

Also, all of these technologies for Tejas-MkII will be passed to AMCA, and this will decrease the Development time.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rajanb »

I think there is a lot of DDMitis in this.

First, 1,500Cr. is not a big deal for a production like this, with facilities to craft various components making up the airframe with very low tolerances. Add to that the use of new materials as compared to what we use for Jags and Hawks in Bangalore.

Nashik does the sirframe for SU30s which would be closer in manufacturing tolerances to the LCA, than other aircraft so far.

Having spent a lot of time at Nashik, where the MiG series were being produced. It was my job as a hardware engineer (on airframes and not stupid hackable windows/linux to connect to the use of CNC machines to machine jigs, components, panels etc.

The electronics and LRUs are being sourced elsewhere.

So it seems to be a combination of DDMitis and the uncertain orders from the IAF!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

But Rajan Sahab,

The reporter is only quoting HAL/ADA bosses. Targets against achievements. And they don't match up. HAL said that LSP 7 and LSP 8 would be produced through the assembly line and that LSP 7 and LSP 8 were originally supposed to come out by mid 2012. The assembly line is still not in place (ADA boss confirms). Worse still, they seem to be scouting for a foreign consultant("The proposal to appoint a foreign consultant for the Tejas production line remains alive in the MoD"). The proposal will be accepted, then a foreign consultant will be contacted, then an assembly line will be set up. We are still speaking of years.

To me, the ADA chief's statement sounds like an excuse. HAL/ADA knew what kind of technologies Tejas has. HAL also has the experience of building Su-30s. How is it that only now "ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realisation has come"?!!!

I really doubt the HAL is going to churn out 8 Tejas's annually, starting from next year. I wish to be proven wrong next year. But as things stand today, it seems highly unlikely to me.

P.S. (To some posters who are against questioning any DPSU): I have no experience in setting up the production line of an aircraft, so please don't waste a post asking me about the same.
Last edited by Indranil on 10 Dec 2012 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

There were many private industries participated in LCA development.. I say energize them for large scale model. And bring a big private player into the game.

And I am sure, they are ever willing to take blame for project schedules, and along with it comes excellent marketing they will provide for the product. LCA will go without boundaries.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

If typhoon assembly line can experience problem, why not LCA? Like HAL, they too manufactured many types of aircraft before typhoon. P Subramanyam talks about "serious difficulties" in setting up of production line. Do anyone knows what the problem is? Do Shukla mentions that? So without even scratching the surface why everyone is jumping the gun?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

My problem is not having serious difficulties. I problem is in the experts not being able to foresee it. Do we have to stumble on the problem before realizing that there is work to be done?

The assembly line might have a problem, but EFs are coming of an existing assembly line!

P.S. Reminds of Feature - The Light Combat Aircraft Story by Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd).
In 2001, HAL/ADA were promising IOC by 2005-2006. AM Wollen was much more practical. He did not expect IOC before 2010.
France (Dassault Aviation) built and exhaustively flew a demonstrator aircraft (Rafale-A) before embarking on construction of Rafale prototypes. Over 2,000 flights were completed by September 1994 when first Flight of a production Rafale was still 20 months away. At that point of time, Dassault Aviation had built or flown 93 prototypes, of which at least fifteen went into production after sixteen years elapsed from 'first-metal-cut' of the Rafale demonstrator to entry into service. Current plans for the LCA is ten years. And what of India's past record? Just a hand-ful of trainer aircraft designed and productionised. The story is similar for the Typhoon (earlier Eurofighter 2000). It was seventeen years from 'first-metal-cut' (EAP) to squadron entry in 2000. One more timeframe needs to be noted. It took Gripen six and a half years from first flight (prototype) to entry into squadron. For the LCA, four and a half years is the target! The quantum of test flying hours required to attain Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) is about 2000 hours; an impossible task in four and a half years. Concurrent production will shorten service entry time, but this will not enable the present target to be reached.
Last edited by Indranil on 10 Dec 2012 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rajanb »

indranilroy wrote:But Rajan Sahab,

The reporter is only quoting HAL/ADA bosses. Targets against achievements. And they don't match up. HAL said that LSP 7 and LSP 8 would be produced through the assembly line and that LSP 7 and LSP 8 were originally supposed to come out by mid 2012. The assembly line is still not in place (ADA boss confirms). Worse still, they seem to be scouting for a foreign consultant("The proposal to appoint a foreign consultant for the Tejas production line remains alive in the MoD"). The proposal will be accepted, then a foreign consultant will be contacted, then an assembly line will be set up. We are still speaking of years.

To me, the ADA chief's statement sounds like an excuse. HAL/ADA knew what kind of technologies Tejas has. HAL also has the experience of building Su-30s. How is it that only now "ADA and HAL have realized that creating a production line needs major effort… That realisation has come"?!!!

I really doubt the HAL is going to churn out 8 Tejas's annually, starting from next year. I wish to be proven wrong next year. But as things stand today, it seems highly unlikely to me.

P.S. (To some posters who are against questioning any DPSU): I have no experience in setting up the production line of an aircraft, so please don't waste a post asking me about the same.
Indranilji, I agree with a lot of your points. But the HAL of earlier days was adequately funded.

But the poltics of our nation has ruined it. To adress this foreign consultant issue

An example: I, and my firang bosses used to travel by one of the best airlines in the world! Air India

My dad was sent to Indonesia in 1955, to set up and aviation Academy to train, both, military and commercial Pilots.

I was sad to see Air India hiring foreign pilots.

So we need a foreign consultant? For the manufacturing of the LCA?

The chinese hired people from USSR when it was breaking up.

Why do we not hire Indians in the USA, who have the requisite experience? How many Indians don't we have in NASA, LM and Boeing and Raytheon?

When DDMs haw and hoo about 1500 Cr., Why do we forget the thousands of crores allegedly robbed from our country?

The same DDMs rake in salaries by the crores!

Because it is purely expedient! times have changed. if we accept that, we can move forward to overcome this rubbish!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

dhiraj wrote:http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/12/t ... class.html

Some of the improvements mentioned for Mk.2 where music to the ears :D
It was said many times here that Tejas Mk2 once arrived can stand shoulder to shoulder with any MMRCA that joins our AF.
Tejas Mark II’s increased fuel load, will allow 3-4 hours of continuous flying, more than most fighters in the world.

"This INS would be used in the navigation-attack system that is being tailor-made for the LCA,”

The Tejas Mark II is also being configured to fire any advanced weaponry that the IAF acquires, e.g. any long-range air-to-air missiles (LRAAMs) that may be acquired along with the ongoing purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vishvak »

Also the LCA Tejas make versions could be labelled १ & २ as numerals in Devanagari script.

====

Also name as तेजस ; Kaveri engine as कावेरी etc.
Last edited by vishvak on 10 Dec 2012 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

if we really want to churn out large number of fighters, submarines and big aircraft carriers, the only way for it is Public - Private partnership.
Develop a model which would be enticing to private sector NOW so that things are in place by 2018.
My opinion is if we really want to move to the next level of defence and aerospace technology where cutting edge design & development goes hand in hand with precision and quality manufacturing to arm our forces we have to go for the Public - Private partnership in a very big way.

Monopoly and guaranteed orders makes Jack a dull boy :)

And regarding manufacturing problems, anyone can face problems that is not an issue . Point is if we know that this is our first attempt for anything like the Tejas then what is the harm in involving some external expertise right from the start rather than fail after 5 years and then delay an already delayed project further.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

rajanb wrote: Indranilji, I agree with a lot of your points. But the HAL of earlier days was adequately funded.

But the poltics of our nation has ruined it. To adress this foreign consultant issue

An example: I, and my firang bosses used to travel by one of the best airlines in the world! Air India

My dad was sent to Indonesia in 1955, to set up and aviation Academy to train, both, military and commercial Pilots.

I was sad to see Air India hiring foreign pilots.

So we need a foreign consultant? For the manufacturing of the LCA?

The chinese hired people from USSR when it was breaking up.

Why do we not hire Indians in the USA, who have the requisite experience? How many Indians don't we have in NASA, LM and Boeing and Raytheon?

When DDMs haw and hoo about 1500 Cr., Why do we forget the thousands of crores allegedly robbed from our country?

The same DDMs rake in salaries by the crores!

Because it is purely expedient! times have changed. if we accept that, we can move forward to overcome this rubbish!
Please no 'ji' for me. I am much younger to you in age, experience and other things between my ears.

I could not agree with you more. I completely agree that 1500 cr. is peanuts for building up know-how and infrastructure for aircraft production.

I cannot shout loudly enough on how Indian govt. should try and attract Indian brains outside. I see the Chinese go after Chinese profs and scholars in foreign university. They agree to set up their labs, give them lucrative grants and perks. The story is quite different for Indians. I know Indians (absolute top-of-the-chain-profs) trying to go back only to be told that their way of conducting research does not match! They reach meeting halls with international delegations to find the Indian party late by 45 minutes (true story)!

Anyways, I will stop my whining and get back to discussing technicalities of Tejas on the thread.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

Kanson wrote:It was said many times here that Tejas Mk2 once arrived can stand shoulder to shoulder with any MMRCA that joins our AF.
Yes Sir, I have read about some of the tech going into the Mk.2 , it is just that visualizing a Tejas with all those feature makes me very happy . Chasing down all the J and F series fighters :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

Just imagine that happiness - where it would be if we have done it "all by ourselves"? apologies ahead to hurt your feelings a little bit.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

SaiK wrote:Just imagine that happiness - where it would be if we have done it "all by ourselves"? apologies ahead to hurt your feelings a little bit.
No Sir, u r very right the happiness would have been much more if we have done all by ourselves. But now i think that things are moving the ALH Dhruv way and we have to live with it. Kaveri engine is definitely not coming in the near future. AESA is also a concern area (though we can get some help from others to speed up).
Would request some information on the extent of testing that has been carried out for the air frame. Has the tejas been tested for its complete flight envelope or here too there is lot to be done ? [ I have seen crazy maneuvers by F 16 etc , has the LCA been subjected to any of such test]
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by manum »

Wow...not again...

Why are you even enquiring about LCA....the way you are asking the question...gives me age old feeling that you already know the answers...

you should rather ask does LCA even exist or I am drunk and dreaming....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

dhiraj wrote: [ I have seen crazy maneuvers by F 16 etc , has the LCA been subjected to any of such test]
What specific crazy maneuvers are you talking about?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

LCA update from Col.Shukla again and it warms my heart on seeing the following
Making the Tejas fly
Ask any of the 20-odd Indian Air Force (IAF) test pilots who have flown the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and they will all swear that it is a great fighter to fly. It handles beautifully, screams along at Mach 1.6 (2000 kilometres per hour) and fires the full range of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry. With 2000 test flights under its belt, has already proven that it can fly and fight better than most fighters on the IAF inventory. It is vastly superior to the Mig-21, and is not too far behind the Mirage 2000.

member_23694
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

manum wrote:the way you are asking the question...gives me age old feeling that you already know the answers...
No Sir, it was a genuine question may be i could have rephrased it better

but something like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9YC-gaNYo

don't know the result of the test but are such maneuvers part of the test process and has LCA gone through all these
SaiK
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

And that is the real happiness, handling the LCA well was the control laws.. when our CLAW team wrote everything from scratch after nuke sanctions. Damn the khaans! now I wish other areas we have the same motto and zeal. We can do wonders.

Very pleasing to hear it crossedhit the 1.6 per spec.
vic
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

My wife contributed Rs. 100 and my Nepali servant has started digging a foundation in Govt land (read local park) hence with tax payer contribution, foreign participation, Govt resources - I am ahead of HAL! Can I now pls pls criticize HAL, after all they are my rivals????
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