LCA News and Discussions

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krishnan
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by krishnan »

shiv
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

indranilroy wrote: Scorn/criticism and all this mumbo jumbo is not what I wanted to dwell in. I believe in objectivity.
Well you did ask a question and I answered. The word you used was that you feel scorn. Scorn is a harsh word. Indians have a habit of using scornful language while referring to other Indians as if that will make things better. This is a mistake. No such thing can occur by being insulting or disparaging. It is easy to be scornful. One needs zero competence to cuss and rant. It is less easy to be objective.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

indranilroy wrote:[OT ALERT]What is a brown man supposed to do when he feels that something is deserving of scorn? Or is he not supposed to feel that way either?
If a brown man wants to heap scorn at someone then he is free to do such but do that in the appropriate thread why mess this thread ?? Also while doing so the brown man must remember that there is a fair chance that another brown man might come along and do the same thing to him which he/she must be prepared to face instead of whining and trying to mold and pass of his/her scorn as"criticism". If the brown man/woman is ready for these consequences then scorn as much as one likes but do it in the appropriate thread.
indranilroy wrote:Or should he feel scorn only for the white/yellow man's work but not for any brown man's work?[/OT ALERT]
Brown man is free to scorn whoever he/she likes to as long as the brown man is doing it in the right thread.
indranilroy wrote:But I should be let to express my opinion, without the fear of being branded light brown, brown or dark brown. And for goodness sake, please don't try to prove that somebody is browner just by being on the chaplusy side of the spectrum.
So scorn for PSUs is "highly regarded","appreciable","nice criticism" and trying to find the real reason of the problem instead of joing the scorn wagon is "chaplusi".
Good display of objectivity.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Sagar G »

vina wrote:
No one can st up a production line when the design is not finalized and proven up to production standard. The question of production line actually taking off came only after IOC
Not true. That is the old world style of sequential development and production, which unfortunately is what the LCA and its project management uses.
But saar even with concurrent engineering production cannot start in full flow till the design is frozen and final manufacturing drawings are released. It does cut down the time of entire design process but until and unless the design itself isn't finalized how come full production will start ???

Don't know about LCA but DRDO is using concurrent engineering IIRC in the Rustom project I remember reading about it being done using the said practice.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Lalmohan »

concurrent takniki only really gets you to prototype or pre-production stage. production line takniki is little bit different
i dont think (as i have said before) that we are good at the latter
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

well it can.. in concurrent engineering, however it should be noted similar to (if one can think like a programmer) concurrent ops.. where, one can establish sync points akins to mutual exclusion zones for each process. so, convert the engineering process to various state models you have -- sorry, meaning various product/component state (check out where it needs the missing link, what is it depending on to proceed further, what parts need to wait, while this wait happens).. parallel execution of other process can take place.. and sync up with the wait of the part, and continue assembly of the waiting line.

so, essentially factory line setup on concurrent basis must ensure that there is no dead locks. think, while i am designing for mk.2, i need some jigs, which are being used by mk.1 assembly.. so wait. now, comes a free point, and i immediately take oppty, and execute my mk.2 design activity. so, the resource sharing here is the assembly line.

we have to isolate what are resources, and are the resources and facilities build for concurrent engineering, etc.. are the ones HAL and ADA needs to work on.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1953 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,LSP5-109,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1955 Test Flights Successfully. (13-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,LSP5-110,LSP7-6,NP1-4)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by PratikDas »

Is there a secret LCA which flew once but isn't listed? :)

(Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood here. Too much friendly fire. We all want to see HAL get into top gear.)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

I wishh ... but No that isnt the case. The last update they were three flights by lsp3 but the total reflected only 2 so that is how it happened. PV5 i think has gone on vacation and the PV3 the warhorse earlier is resting. The bulk of the flight testing seems to be on LSP3/5/7 nowadays
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

PV5 is the trainer version :-). Surya, do you remember, when it last flew?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

In April 2011 :((
flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 1623 Test Flights successfully. 01-Apr-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-272,LSP1-65,LSP2-173,PV5-33,LSP3-39,LSP4-35,LSP5-21)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1636 Test Flights successfully. 21-Apr-2011).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-205,PV3-273,LSP1-67,LSP2-174,PV5-36,LSP3-42,LSP4-37,LSP5-22)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rajanb »

Wasn't the trainer version the basis for the naval version with the addition of a stronger undercarriage and a tail hook?

Also, I remember, that the ADA, in one of its tenders/eoi had mentioned over 2000 flights? E.G. the flights between Goa and BLR may not be in the test flight category?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

I hope the induction of the Hawks havn't obviated the need for the Tejas Trainer. We would lose a wonderful LIFT.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kakkaji »

Could it be that for the Mig-21, Jaguar, SU-30 etc. the entire production line was set up for HAL on a 'turnkey' basis by the OEM, and hence HAL never developed the expertise in planning for, designing, and setting up a production line?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Kakkaji wrote:Could it be that for the Mig-21, Jaguar, SU-30 etc. the entire production line was set up for HAL on a 'turnkey' basis by the OEM, and hence HAL never developed the expertise in planning for, designing, and setting up a production line?
The LCA does have a "production line" - rudimentary perhaps, but there is one that produced the ones out there.

After some thought I think a production line to produce the 20+20 does exit - one that will produce 8 per year. It may not be as mature as one would like it to be, but it will produce 8 per year. The question is can it be upgraded to produce more than 8 per year.

IF Sulur is to get MKI and perhaps LCA by 2016, then they have to have some sort of a production facility to meet that deadline. This deadline may slip by a year or so, but, nonetheless there has got to be a Production system out there.

The article that Shiv posted talked about a trip abroad - that was to improve on what they have.

The question is how mature is the one they already have. My thinking is that it will produce 8 per year.

???????????????
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

NRao wrote:The question is how mature is the one they already have. My thinking is that it will produce 8 per year.
It currently produces 2 in a year and a half. That's not a production line, that's someone tinkering in their garage.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Kakkaji wrote:Could it be that for the Mig-21, Jaguar, SU-30 etc. the entire production line was set up for HAL on a 'turnkey' basis by the OEM, and hence HAL never developed the expertise in planning for, designing, and setting up a production line?
I believe that some components were imported from workshops and factories made abroad and did not require the setting up of production lines in India. These could be rings, valves, joints etc that would require an entire new assembly line making it expensive while they were already in production and cheap imports. The particular components that were imported can be judged by the "Import substitution" products on display at the Air Force Base Repair Depots stall in Aero India. Need to look for photos of this from past Aero India shows that I have

All those have to be made in house now. If private players do not have the machinery/investment to make some part or other. HAL will have to do it, or a foreign supplier will have to be found. India has low tech private workshops and medium to high tech factories. We have experienced mechanics in small workshops, but they are not engineers. We need engineers running private workshops.
Last edited by shiv on 16 Dec 2012 07:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
NRao wrote:The question is how mature is the one they already have. My thinking is that it will produce 8 per year.
It currently produces 2 in a year and a half. That's not a production line, that's someone tinkering in their garage.
You are clearly confusing phases.

The 2-in-a-year-and-a-half corresponds to the preproduction phase. It was designed or meant to be that. So that should not be alarming at all. Tinkering in a garage - yes, I hope proudly so - it is a genuine first effort. (If what you posted is meant to be some sort of a comment on the delay then that, IMHO, is a diff topic, nothing to do with production (of any kind) issues.)

The 8 per year is meant for the 20+20 phase - the production phase. Do you have any information pertaining to this topic by any chance?
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by symontk »

I am not understanding the issue. One of the key chaiwall told me that an LCA takes 5 years to build, that was in 2005. and that there was a program to reduce it to 3 years

An again, all those new buildings near HAL runway which was bult in last 3 years, is for AJT and not for LCA, hard to believe since AJT hasnt progressed well. Why should HAL spend money on AJT infra which hasnt got thru the R&D?

I have a different take on the issue. I believe by 2020 / 2025, most of the IAF aircrafts will be out of life. And HAL is no position to built that much aircrafts, even with 8 per year LCA and Su-30. Plus due to Chinese threat, there is a need to increase the total number of sqdns itself. So there is a new effort to really productionize LCA to have greater numbers

Also isnt it the same with Artillery? within 7 years all artillery guns need to be replaced? And all the models in fray have to be produced energetically, to reach the magic figure of new 4000 guns
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Yagnasri »

we need 60 AC per year production is required to ensure that a minimum no of AC will be available round the year after year with upgrading, repaires etc will ensure minimum force levels.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

Can somebody call up HAL and remind the Chairman that production lines are required for production of LOH, LCH, Rustom, IJT etc lest he forget it.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by member_23694 »

vic wrote:Can somebody call up HAL and remind the Chairman that production lines are required for production of LOH, LCH, Rustom, IJT etc lest he forget it.
+1 :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by symontk »

There is no problem for getting helis on air, i see atleast 5 of them doing test runs daily. Maybe its because its coming from HAL's R&D, dont know
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by abhik »

shiv wrote:
Multatuli wrote:Yup, this is the whole point. If HAL had started thinking about setting up a production line in earnest some 4 or 5 years ago then the realization would have come much earlier.
No one can st up a production line when the design is not finalized and proven up to production standard. The question of production line actually taking off came only after IOC.
I don't understand, are you saying that one can go about setting up a production line(a process that can take 5-6 years) only after an aircraft has has attained IOC? Is this the norm internationally? I have read that the production line of the f-35(an aircraft which will attain IOC only in 2018) is not only up but also currently producing dozens of them per year(~65 if I remember correctly).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

abhik wrote: I have read that the production line of the f-35(an aircraft which will attain IOC only in 2018)
Really?
http://news.yahoo.com/marines-establish ... nance.html
The Marine Corps on Tuesday established its first operational squadron of F-35 fighter jets at an air station in Yuma, Arizona, a move that officials said showed progress on the Pentagon's biggest and most scrutinized weapons program.

Three F-35B fighters built by Lockheed Martin Corp have already arrived at the base, with 13 more to come over the next year.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Setting ANYTHING is a matter of taking risks. Simple as that.

India, and specifically the LCA program, has been a very, very low risk proposal. So, yes they will tend to wait till everything is proven, only then will they pull the plug on making an event happen. Sad, but true. (I prefer risk taking.)

Which is why we cannot compare the LCA to any other efforts. The US/UK/France are willing to take more risks than India. France, as an example, did not venture into AESA until certain events occurred, not because they were technically not capable, but because the government was not willing to take a risk. Which is why the F-35 is in "production" without an IOC and the LCA will wait eons AFTER the IOC to go into production. Cannot compare the two, should not compare the two.

WRT the LCA we cannot expect the type of experiences we have witnessed in other nations - just NOT possible.

Secondly, production lines are about supply-chains (SC) through and through. Bet India has a very rudimentary one, relatively speaking. Even to improve SC will be asking vendors up and down the line to take higher risks. Will that, can that happen? I very much doubt it.

The only topic of concern I have is why did they wait until last year to think about increasing the rate of production. A year to improve matters is too short for India. Just bad planning IMHO. Mismanagement.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote: Secondly, production lines are about supply-chains (SC) through and through. Bet India has a very rudimentary one, relatively speaking. Even to improve SC will be asking vendors up and down the line to take higher risks. Will that, can that happen? I very much doubt it.
Indian industry on average is rudimentary and low tech. I have said for years that DRDO and HAL are among the most high tech organizations we have. Few in India come anywhere close. Once we Indians get educated we get exposed to the west and somehow imagine that India can easily do what is done in the west. That only reveals that our education system enables us to work with the best of the west, but the best in terms of industry is nowhere near India. We are a low to middling industrial power. HAL as the highest tech we have should tell us something.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
abhik wrote: I have read that the production line of the f-35(an aircraft which will attain IOC only in 2018)
Really?
http://news.yahoo.com/marines-establish ... nance.html
The Marine Corps on Tuesday established its first operational squadron of F-35 fighter jets at an air station in Yuma, Arizona, a move that officials said showed progress on the Pentagon's biggest and most scrutinized weapons program.

Three F-35B fighters built by Lockheed Martin Corp have already arrived at the base, with 13 more to come over the next year.
Need to do more research (when I have time), but they have "stood it up" and is "operational", does NOT mean that they have IOC yet.

Nov 12, 2012 :: USMC stands-up first operational F-35B squadron; operational testing in 2015
The USMC is fielding the F-35B to its operational squadrons before the aircraft has completed its operational testing. The Pentagon's Joint Operational Test Team (JOTT), consisting of US Air Force, US Navy and USMC testers, will start evaluating the F-35's Block 2B configuration in 2015 at Edwards AFB, California. Block 2B is the configuration the USMC intends to declare the F-35B operational with; the USAF and USN will declare initial operational capability (IOC) with the full Block 3 system. "Certainly, the Marine Corps is not tied to the end of operational test to declare initial operation capability," Killea says.
I think abhik is right, but need to verify some details.

But then, like I said, the US is a diff animal. We should not compare the US situation to that of the LCA. It just will not work. It cannot work.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
NRao wrote: Secondly, production lines are about supply-chains (SC) through and through. Bet India has a very rudimentary one, relatively speaking. Even to improve SC will be asking vendors up and down the line to take higher risks. Will that, can that happen? I very much doubt it.
Indian industry on average is rudimentary and low tech. I have said for years that DRDO and HAL are among the most high tech organizations we have. Few in India come anywhere close. Once we Indians get educated we get exposed to the west and somehow imagine that India can easily do what is done in the west. That only reveals that our education system enables us to work with the best of the west, but the best in terms of industry is nowhere near India. We are a low to middling industrial power. HAL as the highest tech we have should tell us something.
I have heard you say that for eons and you are absolutely right about it.

However, I am inclined to believe that India can have a diamond in the rough - as in the space program. India can do it. No two ways about it.

Will try and get you someone to talk to in your 'hood if I can raise the person. Will be difficult, but let us see.

That person - looooooooooooooooooooooooooong ago - tried to model ADA/HAL on the ISRO model. He made a very bad professional decision (per himself - NOT my comment) and paid for it.

The current predicament is very predictable. It was some 20 years ago. By people in India.

But it can be corrected (what cannot eh? :) ). But only in time. 2035-40 perhaps. Not earlier.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

It is the definition of "operational" that we don't know, in either case. In India production was always going to be after IOC whatever the definition. There was never any plan to produce before IOC. The plan was to make a "limited series" (LSP) go through the testing rigmarole and then set up production lines when all the issues holding back IOC were sorted out. Recall that engines were ordered long ago and the IAF too placed orders long ago. That was about commitment. There have been a series of failures in meeting deadlines. We don't know what the hurdles are exactly. They probably will not be made public for a while. Considering that as a group we know so little about aircraft manufacture, our best guess lies in calling people incompetent.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:It is the definition of "operational" that we don't know, in either case. In India production was always going to be after IOC whatever the definition. There was never any plan to produce before IOC. The plan was to make a "limited series" (LSP) go through the testing rigmarole and then set up production lines when all the issues holding back IOC were sorted out. Recall that engines were ordered long ago and the IAF too placed orders long ago. That was about commitment. There have been a series of failures in meeting deadlines. We don't know what the hurdles are exactly. They probably will not be made public for a while. Considering that as a group we know so little about aircraft manufacture, our best guess lies in calling people incompetent.
I do not see any thing wrong in what you say or your understanding of the working.

It is just that you got caught in the politics of the F-35B. Simple as that. If you notice the USMC unit is in Arizona. Now why in hell would you assign the latest-and-greatest S/VTOL to Arizona? Not a coincidence. Politics. The F-35B in particular needs a political god father, else it may/could slip into the abyss. This move alone should save the 35B.

Is it really operational? I very much doubt it. But ..........................

Stood-up = raise in India I think.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by pentaiah »

Every seems to know about every problem India faces and every one seems to know how to solve it
But why is it ...........

DRDO has the most sophisticated equipment great
DRDO and everybody here knows out side of DRDO we have no sophisticated technology to do what we expect to do

But why is it ....

Everybody knows we have the best IITs and Brilliant tutorial trained students entering the modern temples as JLN said

But why is it .....

I don't know son.....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

knowing what,where and how we are, are orthogonal thoughts to knowing what we must know and where we should go and how to do in the future. no country is born high tech. everyone has gotten there with a lot of efforts and investments.

the problem HAL and DRDO (certain labs like GTRE), are facing are easily solvable. we have examples, demonstrated capabilities, and firang companies provide products to study from. even chippanda is excelling in copying technology though a method that is illegal, but they have demonstrated (not pissking here), that they can reach moon and sky with that approach.

any approach is fine as long as a country we are behind the approach, but a positive one at that. our planning to implementations, have a lot of holes, politics and argumentative indians [HAPI].
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by GeorgeWelch »

NRao wrote: If you notice the USMC unit is in Arizona. Now why in hell would you assign the latest-and-greatest S/VTOL to Arizona? Not a coincidence. Politics.
MCAS Yuma is the 'principal Fleet Marine Force Pacific operating base for the AV-8 Harrier and AV-8B Harrier II'
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1955 Test Flights Successfully. (13-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-81,LSP4-56,LSP5-110,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1957 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-82,LSP4-56,LSP5-111,LSP7-6,NP1-4)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

I think the Govt did a great thing by bringing a person highly experienced in aeronautical research and engineering to head HAL. Am sure he will do a great job in setting up production line for LCA.



Oh Shucks!! I forgot he was working in ONGC, sorry for type aforesaid post! He has no knowledge of producing any sort of flying machines.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by abhijitm »

vic wrote:Oh Shucks!! I forgot he was working in ONGC, sorry for type aforesaid post! He has no knowledge of producing any sort of flying machines.
Vic, which CV in India has this capability? We have to develop this niche by picking up talents from other manufaturing niche. Its a long journey.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Victor »

abhijitm wrote: which CV in India has this capability?
The CVs that were responsible for setting up and running fighter production lines for over half a century: Gnat, Mig-21, Jaguar, Su-30mki, Hawk...
We have to develop this niche by picking up talents from other manufaturing niche.
Sure. What does ONGC manufacture?
Its a long journey.
Agreed. Much longer than we can imagine if this is how we run things.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by abhijitm »

^^ HAL is running production lines of MKI, Mig21 etc! never heard of. And ONGC manages production of natural gas and oil through large offshore platforms, managing production lines, logistics and supply chains. Although I agree that is not exactly what Mr. Tyagi had managed in ONGC.

Look, expecting HAL and ADA to master such complex tech of design and production of fighter jet in one single program is like expecting a graduated kid out of the womb. The learnings which supposed to get matured gradually through a series of programs starting from a preliminary flying machine over decades being expected to master in one single program of supersonic fighter jet. Yet ADA has managed to design a respectable flying machine. HAL has failed to set up the production line for LCA. But the important thing is they have realised and admitted their mistake. So give them some time. There is hope as long as GoI, IAF and IN are committed to the program.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

abhijitm wrote:^^ HAL is running production lines of MKI, Mig21 etc!
Not quite, just assembling from more and more granular CKD kits, with gradual replacement of granular parts with indigenous ones. That is why you'll still find IAPO issuing press releases of MKI kits supplied to India.

That is also why with the dissolution of Soviet Union in the 90's, Air attachés in various Indian Embassies across FSU & former Warsaw Pact countries scavenged for MiG series parts. I'm told even Chinese F-7 parts were procured. If HAL built MiG21 from fully raw material stage, there would be no spares crunch, and no "Rang de Basanti" movie.

The issue is compounded by the fact that Tejas uses American philosophy of delivering best-of-breed capabilities from highly-optimized-subcomponents unlike Russian philosophy of deliverying standard capabilities from the not-so-optimzed-subcomponents.

HAL has never even remotely done such American style assembling/manufacturing, leaving aside some doors & windows orders now & then.
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