LCA News and Discussions

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Jan 2013 08:01

NP1 hasnt been flying for a while and the LSP1/2 were supposed to have no radar(dont know if they retrofitted them) and LSP4 has been flying though not as much as the 3/5/7

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Jan 2013 10:23

So are these, LSP3/5/7 going to be the ones taking part in the IAF demo early next month?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jan 2013 11:04

PV-2 has been extensively used for the weapon trials and detachments. LSP-2 was also flying just before everything came to a standstill in July. So may be they are still getting the changes done. before joining the LSP-3/5/7 for tests.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 11 Jan 2013 21:05

indranilroy wrote:PV-2 has been extensively used for the weapon trials and detachments. LSP-2 was also flying just before everything came to a standstill in July. So may be they are still getting the changes done. before joining the LSP-3/5/7 for tests.

Still now sign of LSP6? any chaiwalla sightings?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 12 Jan 2013 11:54

one Grey LCA landed just now from Marathahalli side, had whilte missles on its wings

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 Jan 2013 17:52

has there been any firing of BVR missile's from LCA, i can't remember any such incident(other than r73)

if any please post anyone...........

if not when are we gona do this work...

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jan 2013 18:45

tushar_m wrote:has there been any firing of BVR missile's from LCA, i can't remember any such incident(other than r73)

if any please post anyone...........

if not when are we gona do this work...

From the impression I have after cruising the net, all but BVR have been tested. No news on AoA.

And that LSP7 and LSP8 are being handed over to the IAF. Hence we are seeing the LSP7 being put through its paces. And I assume that the LSP8 is a production copy, and the basis for #s 1 to 40.

PV1 was supposed to test ECM. And since it isn't doing much, I assume that ECM is out of the way.
So is LGB, Dumb Bombs/Rockets, R73, Drop tanks and tests.

In one of the net articles a Wingco had joined the test team. Assume he is IAF only. Who knows?

If anyone has any indications as to live coverage of the IAF live firing exercise, please do post in advance.

TIA

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 Jan 2013 19:33

BVR for LCA is suppose to be Derby or Python 5.......................which is yet to be tested

since we expect 200 LCA (both variants included) & expect 6-8 BVR missiles per unit , around 1600 unit missiles are required(approx) throughout lifetime of plane..

what is a possibility for integration of AIM-120 AMRAAM until Astra Matures ...??? say 400-500 units for LCA & maybe other platforms

AIM-120 AMRAAM is a proven design & current scenario says that US is very willing to sell anything to India.Quick integration & rapid delivery is also possible.

Our basket will have all the different "EGGS" from different countries..........

this will also pressure the further sales of missiles to PAF.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jan 2013 21:52

^^^^ We already have the Derby for IN. Couldn't those have been tried out? Like the R 73 was?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jan 2013 22:49

In fact that is the route we have to take with unkil weapon systems. Integrating AIM120 on LCA should be a welcome change.. but hopefully all those unkil tech does not enforce buying certain unkill devices placed for integration point of view.. if they provide us the APIs, why not?

From Brimstone LCA to AIM 120 LCA makes it a deadly weapons delivery platform.. and if we have the integrated 2052 based AESA system with home grown control logic (software), then we have a big market share.. so, I doubt unkill wants us enabled there.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 Jan 2013 22:52

rajanb wrote:^^^^ We already have the Derby for IN. Couldn't those have been tried out? Like the R 73 was?

R73 has a good reputation in A2A missile family , derby on the other hand may have a range advantage but it is a medium range missile not a long range.

also IN purchased Derby for its 15-20 harrier at that time so it would not have been purchased in large quantity.

integration of IN derby to LCA would only be matter of SW & other minor changes so not that difficult.

The bulk quantity of derby & python-5 will be purchased with SPYDER SAM system (750 derby & 750 Python 5)

these missiles could be used for dual purpose i.e as SAM or as a2a missile's fighters (LCA , harrier etc).

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 12 Jan 2013 22:58

SaiK wrote:In fact that is the route we have to take with unkil weapon systems. Integrating AIM120 on LCA should be a welcome change.. but hopefully all those unkil tech does not enforce buying certain unkill devices placed for integration point of view.. if they provide us the APIs, why not?

From Brimstone LCA to AIM 120 LCA makes it a deadly weapons delivery platform.. and if we have the integrated 2052 based AESA system with home grown control logic (software), then we have a big market share.. so, I doubt unkill wants us enabled there.

not to forget that cost advantage & timely delivery which is always a problem in case of our other friend....

.

i have heard that MoD want to pay half of the price(quoted by companies) for AH64E or Boeing CH-47 Chinook. can't remember the source though...

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 13 Jan 2013 00:55

Every time I visit this thread I hope to see news like "next batch of four LCAs handed over the IAF" or some such very simple news. Perhaps a sprinkling of which unit it was given to or whatever. And a batch of DDM thrown in for good measure.

Instead, I find this mind numbing marathon of nuanced technology/political discussion that has been going on since the last six years I joined BRF.

Don't you guys think we have discussed everything on this page countless times before (and in just as much detail

). I remember reading the same discussions about two years ago. Even then I remembered reading it before!

Oh well. I can continue to hope.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 13 Jan 2013 00:58

I honestly think its about time we marked the pages where a certain discussion has taken place and just point all new questions there. And leave this page for the news items onlee.

IMVHO

vina · Post by **vina** » 13 Jan 2013 07:03

Posting this news here for obvious reason. Just imagine the R&D happening here if a similar news is reported.
F-35 testing halted after cracks discovered.

Now you know why the cloned Chinese ding-dong taking off from a carrier elicits loud yawns. Someone here quickly tell me that the cloned Chinese Su-33 went through 8000 hrs of stress tests. And of course the JF-17 did in Pakistan with Pindi-Chana gas being the main source of stress.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2013 07:08

vina, stupid is our media mostly.. and that is because our labs do not have a media management service.

i am sure, even massan news is not plain vanila one... it would be all based on how SD wants the news to be disbursed.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Jan 2013 08:53

i never get one thing from the below link

50 Block-2 with advanced features were ordered in 2011 to be delivered by December 2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ai ... t_aircraft

how can PAF produce 50 aircraft's in one year , no one can do this..............

though they are learning from panda how to create hoax so........................

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 13 Jan 2013 08:54

tushar_m wrote:i never get one thing from the below link

50 Block-2 with advanced features were ordered in 2011 to be delivered by December 2012

how can PAF produce 50 aircraft's in one year , no one can do this..............

I think they meant they will start delivering from 2012.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Jan 2013 09:18

vivek_ahuja wrote:Every time I visit this thread I hope to see news like "next batch of four LCAs handed over the IAF" or some such very simple news. Perhaps a sprinkling of which unit it was given to or whatever. And a batch of DDM thrown in for good measure.

Instead, I find this mind numbing marathon of nuanced technology/political discussion that has been going on since the last six years I joined BRF.

Don't you guys think we have discussed everything on this page countless times before (and in just as much detail ). I remember reading the same discussions about two years ago. Even then I remembered reading it before!

Oh well. I can continue to hope.

Hope springs eternal Vivekji. And in this particular instance, I think I am the culprit.

Hehe. But basically it was to solicit news from whoever had a barber whose bhathija's wife's cousin tenth removed from step grandmom's side had any info why the BVR, expansion of AoA, wake penetration tests, etc. has or has not been tested. Such is the hunger.

Becasue only after that the four LCAs will get delivered to the IAF.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 13 Jan 2013 09:19

they only have 100 RD33 engines & Russia is not going to sell any more engine to them.

so if suppose 42-45 such planes are flying & 20-25 engines are kept in reserve ,then they can only produce 25 or so new fighters with RD33.

they may go for WS10 but .........even Chinese are not confident of these engines

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 13 Jan 2013 10:14

rajanb wrote:Hope springs eternal Vivekji. And in this particular instance, I think I am the culprit.

No Sir, you are not alone.
Similar questions in my mind too, like the one below , but no answers yet

But again from my understanding, it seems that the kind of extreme stress testing on the airframe and controls like the one in the link below for the LCA could be pending and the BVR.

dhiraj wrote: but something like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9YC-gaNYo

don't know the result of the test but are such maneuvers part of the test process and has LCA gone through all these

Surprisingly like for the Eurofighter during the time of induction it was mentioned that it was ready for Air to Air missions with limited ground attack capability for the LCA we don't get any such information as to what percentage of the requirements have been tested for Air to Air/ground , AoA etc , resulting in curiosity / impatience / stress / anxiety for people like me.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jan 2013 10:15

It does not matter if they have confident in their machines and stolen techs, but what matters is if they are put to use. Usability counts, and that is what counts for ORBAT.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 13 Jan 2013 10:23

~~Is the LCA being produced in Porkistun?~~

Why are we soiling this thread with flying pigs?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 13 Jan 2013 15:13

vivek_ahuja wrote:Every time I visit this thread I hope to see news like "next batch of four LCAs handed over the IAF" or some such very simple news. Perhaps a sprinkling of which unit it was given to or whatever. And a batch of DDM thrown in for good measure.

Instead, I find this mind numbing marathon of nuanced technology/political discussion that has been going on since the last six years I joined BRF.

Don't you guys think we have discussed everything on this page countless times before (and in just as much detail ). I remember reading the same discussions about two years ago. Even then I remembered reading it before!

Oh well. I can continue to hope.

I am so with you on this ....... especially the news about .... batch of 4 a/c handed over
2/ac handed over etc.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 14 Jan 2013 08:02

There was a discussion on AoA on April 12, 2012 (refer http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... start=3600). One of the things brought up there was this article - http://www.scribd.com/doc/78345390/Appr ... -LCA-Tejas, according to which as of April of this year the LCA was currently set to a maximum of 22 deg. AoA.

Extract:
However, directional characteristics indicated the proverbial ‘cliff’ with a sudden drop in Cn, CRM (Coefficient of Rolling Moment) and CYM (Coefficient of Yawing Moment) at approx 25o AoA as shown at fig-4 and 5. These phenomena require the High AoA trials to be limited to 24o (as shown in dotted line) until directional stability is bolstered and augmented by rudder control up to an expected 26o. Currently the Tejas is flying to AoAlimits of 20o and 22o never exceed. Fortunately as shown in fig-6, the LCA has significant rudder authority (CYM-Del R) even up to 30o AoA that will allow artificial stabilization in yaw at high AoA

So we're really close, it seems - the number is already at 22 deg. as against a maximum initial production number of 24 deg, to be later taken to 26 deg. Could it be that the team has decided to attend to other, more pressing matters first and leave the AoA issue for later, maybe the FOC? My knowledge of aeronautics is very limited, so I will leave it to the experts to weigh in.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 14 Jan 2013 12:03

Chai wallah who delivers chai to a good person on the team informs that there was little testing during the past few months due to some incremental upgrades made to the existing fleet. One of he LRUs has been significantly upgraded and has lost weight in the process. Also the internals have been readied for the 414. Expect some positive news on the radar soon

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jan 2013 20:12

414 sounds like the masala chai is for lca-mk2. are you sure? or is this from the new malloo tea stall?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jan 2013 09:17

LSP-06 and the AoA testing seems to be going further away... hope they spring a surprise and release it soon along with LSP-08... if only wishes had wings...

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Jan 2013 10:31

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1971 Test Flights Successfully. (08-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-86,LSP4-56,LSP5-115,LSP7-12,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1977 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-88,LSP4-56,LSP5-117,LSP7-14,NP1-4)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 15 Jan 2013 20:26

Methinks, preparation for Ironfist and a positive impression for the IAF brass is paramount in the minds of HAL Mgmt, hence all focus on LSP-03, 05 and 07... Getting them ready in all respects... Maybe we will see LSP-06 and LSP-08 after that onleee

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 15 Jan 2013 21:15

SaiK wrote:414 sounds like the masala chai is for lca-mk2. are you sure? or is this from the new malloo tea stall?

Chaiwallah informed that they have dropped the initial plan for major fuselage changes. The 414 will be tested on a slightly modded airframe (check which a/c is not flying) to get the control laws updated.. Meanwhile, there are also changes to some other components during this time. Also a team has been deployed at HAL for the production line setup. There are some issues with the carbon fibre autoclave from what I have heard.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2013 21:43

interesting chai-bits. the strategy to quickly slam in the 414 (guess the inlet modifications - hopefully on the lines of super hornets) is not a bad idea. However, the extended fuselage was also intended to house many upgrades from internalizing many pod based accessories to increased mission profile. Definitely wing extension was also in the earlier talks [g-limits on turns?].

did chai-sip on the autoclave meant he met some NAL folks ordered masala chai or he mistook them for HAL?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 16 Jan 2013 20:06

Flight test update

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 1977 Test Flights Successfully. (12-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-88,LSP4-56,LSP5-117,LSP7-14,NP1-4)
to
LCA-Tejas has completed 1980 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Jan-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-89,LSP4-56,LSP5-118,LSP7-15,NP1-4)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Jan 2013 00:55

Nikhil p, so we can expect MK2 to be a slightly larger MK1?
Is the fuselage longer by 0.5m or 1 m?

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jan 2013 01:56

nikhil_p wrote:
SaiK wrote:414 sounds like the masala chai is for lca-mk2. are you sure? or is this from the new malloo tea stall?
Chaiwallah informed that they have dropped the initial plan for major fuselage changes. The 414 will be tested on a slightly modded airframe (check which a/c is not flying) to get the control laws updated...

It sounds like it would be possible to upgrade the initial 40 LCA Mk.1s to Mk.2 down the road i.e. during mid-life updates.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jan 2013 08:31

also note IN had really wanted the core power up! n-LCA needs the 414 faster than LCA.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 17 Jan 2013 10:12

nikhil_p wrote: Chaiwallah informed that they have dropped the initial plan for major fuselage changes. The 414 will be tested on a slightly modded airframe (check which a/c is not flying) to get the control laws updated
...

LSP1 and 4 (and of course the PVs) haven't flown from atleast Jul'12 onwards and stuck at 74 and 56 flights respectively.

So on one of these the F414 will be tested, is it? Or back to the PVs for this round of testing?

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 17 Jan 2013 12:00

maitya wrote:LSP1 and 4 (and of course the PVs) haven't flown from atleast Jul'12 onwards and stuck at 74 and 56 flights respectively.

So on one of these the F414 will be tested, is it? Or back to the PVs for this round of testing?

No idea. But you are a BRFite...put the jingo cap on.

SaiK wrote:also note IN had really wanted the core power up! n-LCA needs the 414 faster than LCA.

nikhil_p wrote:
Chaiwallah informed that they have dropped the initial plan for major fuselage changes. The 414 will be tested on a slightly modded airframe (check which a/c is not flying) to get the control laws updated...

SaiK Garu, the answer is above. For NLCA no chances being taken. Has to be perfect so all control lays have to be perfected.

srai wrote:It sounds like it would be possible to upgrade the initial 40 LCA Mk.1s to Mk.2 down the road i.e. during mid-life updates.

I believe so. We are finally in the Blocks/Tranche phase.

Karan M wrote:Nikhil p, so we can expect MK2 to be a slightly larger MK1?
Is the fuselage longer by 0.5m or 1 m?

This is not a MK2. Please read post like BR Jingo!

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Jan 2013 11:27

nikhil_p wrote: ...
Chaiwallah informed that they have dropped the initial plan for major fuselage changes. The 414 will be tested on a slightly modded airframe (check which a/c is not flying) to get the control laws updated...
...
srai wrote:It sounds like it would be possible to upgrade the initial 40 LCA Mk.1s to Mk.2 down the road i.e. during mid-life updates.
I believe so. We are finally in the Blocks/Tranche phase.

Karan M wrote:Nikhil p, so we can expect MK2 to be a slightly larger MK1?
Is the fuselage longer by 0.5m or 1 m?
This is not a MK2. Please read post like BR Jingo!

So looks like MK2 will just be juggling the insides to accommodate a slightly larger/heavier F414 engine. There will be some changes to the FBW for this. Externally for the most part it will remain the same. This should significantly reduce flight testing for MK2 variant.

I can only guess that the design studies on MK2 revealed that any major changes to the airframe significantly altered flying characteristics. This would mean extensive new flight tests for revalidation. Based on very tight timelines of around 5 years, it would not have been feasible. Maybe MK3 will have the stretched fuelage and other major changes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2013 11:34

I thought the longer fuselage was to reduce drag and make it more efficient.
If that is dropped, will affect fuel economy even if the 414 more powerful engine manages to bullishly push it around corners. we should have faithfully cloned the M2k fuselage as our cheen biraders would do.
maybe the tejas not being a DPSA thing this may not matter.