Pakistan Army ORBAT

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Rahul M
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Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

I understand this is not a 'sexy' topic and most of BR's erstwhile ORBAT buffs are long gone. even so, this is a very important and interesting topic, once you try to understand how ORBATs and deployment drives wars. kindly post any article/op-ed/analysis you find that contains details of paki army formations and their locations.

we have had similar threads in the past, some of which are archived.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=13&t=320

I will start by linking the two commonest sources, wiki and globalsecurity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army#Corps
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -orbat.htm

the official pak army site does not have that information but it is useful nevertheless.
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/

added later : here's a map of the locations of the corps HQ
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rBHh3KzDV0U/S ... nk-map.jpg
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

:D
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

I guess we two will be the only participants of this thread. :lol:

p.s. sent you an email.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Bala Vignesh »

i have some data on the pak ORBAT but can't find the source from where i had got it... Will post the data soon...
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

Rahul M wrote:I guess we two will be the only participants of this thread. :lol:

p.s. sent you an email.
Replied.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by nikhil_p »

After a long time, something to stir the 'oldie' BRFite in me. I am working on creating an ORBAT possible deployment pattern. You will hear from me soon.

On other thoughts, I am missing the old guard.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Aksara »

I guess this thread wont dwell upon ORBATs of PN and PAF?
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by saumitra_j »

Here's slightly dated but useful information: Pakistani Military in FATA and Northwest Frontier Province

Another one: Fizzle Ya ORBAT
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

thanks rohit, got it.

hey nikhil, good to see you after a long time !
Aksara wrote:I guess this thread wont dwell upon ORBATs of PN and PAF?
not much, mostly because it's simpler and decent sources are available on the net. but if you have something interesting to add please do so.

btw, re-opening an old question, did the 3rd armd div actually happen ?
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Nesoj »

Yummy !!! Yummy !!!! :D :D :D
Rahul M wrote:I understand this is not a 'sexy' topic and most of BR's erstwhile ORBAT buffs are long gone.
/
Couple still alive and lurking around http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1098938#


I remember all those detailed ORBATS, circa '98 (Rakesh Koshy era), that Sunil Sainis, Q Quincy and I (under a different avatar - 'Jayji') used to do ......

Is it time to start filling cells in an excel spreadsheets once again ?????

Wouldn't the best starting point be Rikhye's site ?
Last edited by Nesoj on 28 May 2011 22:30, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Samay »

Corps' sectors from globalsecurity.orghttp://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... s-2002.jpg[/img]
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

Nesoj sahab, ORBAT.com doesn't have up to date orbats of TSPA from recent days. or if they do I have missed it.

btw, we have something better than excel spreadsheet now. ;) http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Bharat-rakshak_Wiki
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

Rahul M wrote: <SNIP>
btw, re-opening an old question, did the 3rd armd div actually happen ?
Nope. There is a "Mecahnized Division" each with XXI and V Corps - centered around earlier (I) Armored Brigades.

Another important point - The running mates of 1 and 6 Armored Divisions are either mechanized or in the process of doing so. The efficacy (in terms of firepower) may be questionable - these are going to be on M113 or their local derivative - but mechanized they are.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Nesoj »

Rahul M wrote:Nesoj sahab, ORBAT.com doesn't have up to date orbats of TSPA from recent days. or if they do I have missed it.

btw, we have something better than excel spreadsheet now. ;) http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Bharat-rakshak_Wiki
ORBAT.com - would the latest data be in Rikhye's book 'Concise World Armies 2011' ????

Wow !! hadn't thought of the BR Wiki (technology :D )

Just to give you a brief of 'what used to be done' in 'those' days ......

Basically data used to be entered into a spreadsheet so that missing cells would be clearly identifiable and 'research' could be done to locate the missing info
The sheet used to have 'columns' under the following headers (if my memory serves me correct ... could have the old sheet archived somewhere)

STAGE I
1. Corps
a. identifier / name
b. HQ - location in peacetime
c. Type - role in wartime (Strike / Holding)
d. Area of operation / responsibility in wartime
e. personnel - names of GOC and other offices (from scrolling news articles in newspapers)

2. Divisions (attached to Corps)
a. identifier / name
b. HQ - location in peacetime
c. Type - role in wartime (Strike / Holding)
d. Area of operation / responsibility in wartime
e. personnel - names of GOC and other offices (from scrolling news articles in newspapers)

3. Brigades (attached to Divisions)
a. identifier / name
b. HQ - location in peacetime
c. Type - role in wartime (Strike / Holding)
d. Area of operation / responsibility in wartime
e. personnel - names of GOC and other offices (from scrolling news articles in newspapers)

4. Battalions
a. identifier / name
b. HQ - location in peacetime
c. Type - role in wartime (Strike / Holding)
d. Area of operation / responsibility in wartime
e. personnel - names of GOC and other offices (from scrolling news articles in newspapers)

5. Other Regiments / Battalions (Signals, Artillery, Special Forces etc)
a. identifier / name
b. HQ - location in peacetime
c. Type - role in wartime (Strike / Holding)
d. Area of operation / responsibility in wartime
e. personnel - names of GOC and other offices (from scrolling news articles in newspapers)

STAGE II
Was envisioned to plot the above data on a map and to see how the IA fared opposite their positioning (this stage did never really start, partly being technical difficulties in mapping software) However with Google Earth now being there, this is quite a simple process, with kmz files being sharable.
We could now even plot movements ... roads to be taken etc for units to move from peacetime to wartime positions etc
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

^^ no reason why this template can't be used.

for the record : http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ogle.co.in
By July 2008 five brigades, 17 infantry battalions and five artillery regiments had been pressed into action. Artillery and attack helicopters were used once or twice, admitted Maj.-Gen. Javed Iqbal, the chain-smoking general officer commanding (GOC) of the Golden Eagle Division (officially called the 19 division) who finally crushed the Taliban in Swat, enabling Army chief Gen. Pervez Ashraf Kayani to claim a fortnight ago that the back of militancy had been broken.
Till two years ago, the division was guarding the Indian frontier, as part of the Rawalpindi-based X corps {and was} stationed at Mangla.
X corps was commanded by kiya-nahi before he headed ISI IIRC.

a very detailed but dated article on TSPA corps commander re-shuffling by kiya-nahi.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories186.htm

not sure of the reliability but this one talks of new mech inf div by converting old inf div, possible IMO. rohit, care to go through the numbers ? (note : it does not mention the 25th and 26th mech div that everyone else mentions)
http://www.forumpakistan.com/updated-di ... 16034.html
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

^^^I can go down to Division level Orbat along with some info on the Brigades....but a detailed brigade level orbat is something I don't have or have come across.

Added later:

Can we do a joint ORBAT updatation? As in, we put in place what ever we have and then, every week, update the information/data base to fill out the missing parts?

For example - Division/Corps/Brigade level Orbats: We put forth what ever we have and then, see the missing links. For example, updating the names of GOC and Army Commanders and any latest news items. Then, we can take update any other news - like, xyz formation receiving the new M109 SP Arty from US.

We can collaborate and share info offline and put the final version here. I can put forth a Corp/Division level Orbat for starters.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

rohit, why not do it 'live' on the wiki ? saves time and effort. you can copy paste the one on wiki (format and all) as a starting templete-cum-placeholder.

we can post the articles and similar open source backing info here. also, I haven't seen typical orbats for PA armoured brigades, do you have them ?

added later
of course, I will be part of any joint orbat updatation (anyone else is welcome too btw). :D once we progress a bit we will try to rope in gaganullah for help with mapping.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rahul M wrote:rohit, why not do it 'live' on the wiki ? saves time and effort. you can copy paste the one on wiki (format and all) as a starting templete-cum-placeholder. we can post the articles and similar open source backing info here. also, I haven't seen typical orbats for PA armoured brigades, do you have them ?
Agree with you 1000%, when the idea of a spreadsheet was floating around i wanted to suggest Wiki... Unlike Indian ORBAT (thank god), the Paki ORBAT seems to be fairly detailed with current and former Jernails updated regularly. Even AOR seems clear with maps ityadi (wiki and Global Security). We can make all updates to Wiki and discuss this in the Forum.

my 0.00002 cents.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

rohitvats
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

Rahul M wrote:rohit, why not do it 'live' on the wiki ? saves time and effort. you can copy paste the one on wiki (format and all) as a starting templete-cum-placeholder.

we can post the articles and similar open source backing info here. also, I haven't seen typical orbats for PA armoured brigades, do you have them ?
Will take some time for get used to wiki thing...not very tech savvy, saar.

On PA Armored Brigades...I should have the ToE for typical brigade - independent and otherwise. What I don't have is the complete list of (I) Armored Brigades with number and holding Corps. Will be researching the same this week - need to assess the efficacy of the new 'mechanized divisions' with V and XXXI Corps.

There are two ways in which PA could have raised these divisions - complete new formation with some (I) Armored/Mechanized Bde serving as nucleus. Or, grouping together couple of (I) Armored/Mechanized Brigades under a new higher HQ. From what I understand from internet chatter, it is the latter scenario. Which basically means that, PA will need, in some time, to make up for the (I) Armored/Mechanized Bdes lost to these formations - as there is no new net increment in capability (discounting for a more cohesive formation in form of a Division with support assets). IMO, the new equipment received from uncle under GWOT has allowed PA to add the requisite supporting assets - SP Arty/Engineers/Signals etc for these newer formation. You must have read the news (last year?) of Arty Bde Commander of 25th Mechanized Division receiving the new batch of M109 SP Arty guns at Karachi.

Assessment of above will answer the level of preparedness required under CSD - especially, south of Abohar and Fazilka Sectors.

Another thing to research is the level and kind of mechanization within PA - especially, the running mates of 1st and 6th Armored Divisions.

This is a bit of complicated, so will need time.

As an aside, does anyone have info on the MBT production/modernization in PA? Thanx.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by ASPuar »

Oddly, there is (or was) something called the "71st Army Medical Division", in the Pak Army, which is commanded by a Major general. What the utility or structure of such a formation may be, I am unsure of.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rahul M wrote:I meant this wiki though. http://bharatrakshak.wikia.com/wiki/Bharat-rakshak_Wiki
Why not update WikiPedia itself regularly. This will also avoid Paki Fanboys injecting their wet dreams into Paki ORBAT and then claiming it as the Gospel truth in forums. Also will get good publicity.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

Rohit, do you see that PA has so many Corps with very less strength. Some of their Corps are almost like our large divisions and their divisions are like IA's Brigades? you comments. Also in many Corps, the divisions / Brigade HQ are co-located with the Corps are in a nearby city, not geographically distributed like in India.
Added later: My 100th Post in BR!!!
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

cheenum wrote:Rohit, do you see that PA has so many Corps with very less strength. Some of their Corps are almost like our large divisions and their divisions are like IA's Brigades? you comments. Also in many Corps, the divisions / Brigade HQ are co-located with the Corps are in a nearby city, not geographically distributed like in India.
Added later: My 100th Post in BR!!!
PA Corps generally have 2 Divisions to our 3; their Strike Corps are 2/3rd of Indian counterparts as they have one division less.

That aside, they are working on adding additional armor/mechanized assets to their Pivot Corps - with XXXI and V Corps having three divisons each. ID to ID, I don't think they are smaller than Indian counterparts; the strength of bdes and divisions are guided by operational requirement and geography. Their formations opposite our Central Kashmir (formations under their X Corps - Rawalpindi) are large in size (as are our divisions under XVI and XV Corps). AFAIK, they have lesser number of assets in their armored brigades (independent and with armored divisions). But they are not exactly shadows of their indian counterparts.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

We have approx numbers for Paki Corps (and even some divisions), the corresponding numbers for IA Corps / divisions are not published, so let us leave it here... what is surprising is the fact that PA is half the size as IA and has the same # of Corps.

with 1 Paki == 10 Yindoo, that is a huge and powerful army...

A noob Pooch? does this ratio also apply to Paki Tanks, APCs and helos?
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by anirban_aim »

Kudos to the RahulMullah!!! :D :D

This to my mind is one of the best thread started in ages.

Though my capabilities to contribute will be limited :oops: , but this sure will be a good oppurtunity to learn, and drink from the pool of the gyanis. (which according to me used to be THE USP of BRF) :idea:

Looking forward to some great articles.......

Already some good stuff from rohitvats et al.,

Gurus/Gyanis/Mullahs/Elders please be generous with the knwoledge. :)
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

I just noticed one thing, Desh has positioned its division HQ bang opposite Paki Corps HQ (where much of division/brigade assets are also co-located). was viewing these formation on Google Earth (my private KMZ) and this became starkly visible. Can anyone share their Paki ORBAT KMZ please. mail to xxxxdot g mail dot kaam.
Last edited by Shrinivasan on 30 May 2011 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Gagan »

cheenum,

Me currently working on missile capabilities, Army Strategic Forces Command things.

Looking for babur and other launch sites on google earth. Any ideas?
Doesn't seem to be at the Mahsood Testing range around Tilla Jogian.
Where do they test their missiles from? Where did they test the Nasr from? The Babur from?

Is there a test range around Fatehjung, kala-chitta hills?
Last edited by Gagan on 30 May 2011 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Gagan »

And I am also working on Military cantts,
Cheenum, your kmz will be of great help.
Last edited by Gagan on 30 May 2011 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

[quote="Gagan"]And I am also working on Military cantts,
Cheenum, your kmz will be of great help.

Please mail me: xxxxxxx/quote]
my iED is the second one mentioned. will kantact u with my KMZs... will use encrypted emails...
Last edited by Shrinivasan on 30 May 2011 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Shrinivasan »

Gagan wrote:cheenum,
is that xxxxat g mail?
or xxx dot at gmail.

Me currently working on missile capabilities, Army Strategic Forces Command things.

Looking for babur and other launch sites on google earth. Any ideas?
Doesn't seem to be at the Mahsood Testing range around Tilla Jogian.
Where do they test their missiles from? Where did they test the Nasr from? The Babur from?

Is there a test range around Fatehjung, kala-chitta hills?
i did some Google Earth Analysis as well as Imint based research. will share my KMZs. maybe once we merge our work we can get more... will email you.
Last edited by Shrinivasan on 30 May 2011 20:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by gakakkad »

i m a noob. orbat is a great thread . u guys doing great work in open source intelligence. let me know if i can help some how.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by negi »

Gagan you might know this already but fwiw following has some information of Paki missiles and their launch sites.

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/sonmiani.htm

Looks like lot of them are launched from SUPARCO's sounding rocket launch facility in Sonmiani, Balochistan.

http://www.astronautix.com/sites/sonmiani.htm
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Nesoj »

A consolidation of info on sites linked by Rahul earlier...... quite a lot of info appears to be dated :(

We can use this as the starting point and keep on adding / deleting / updating as we dig out more current and pertinent info



A : PUNJAB STRIKE

1) I Corps - Mangla - Lt. Gen. Nadeem Ahmed

Divisions :-
a) 6th Armored - Kharian - Maj. Gen. Tahir Habib Siddiqui
b) 17th Mech Inf - Kharian - Maj. Gen. Nasser Khan Janjua
c) 37th Mech Infantry - Gujranwala - Maj. Gen. Ashfaq Nadeem - current deployment in SWAT

Ind Brigades :-
a) 11th Ind Armored
b) ?? Ind Anti Tank
c) ?? Ind Art
d) ?? Ind Inf


2) II Corps - Multan -

Divisions :-
a) 1st Armored - Multan - Lt. Gen. Sikandar Afzal
b) 14th Inf - Okara - Maj. Gen. Mohammad Ijaz Chaudhry
c) 40th Inf - Okara - ????

Ind Brigades :-
a) ?? Ind Armored
b) ?? Ind Anti Tank
c) ?? Ind Art
d) ?? Ind Inf


B : PUNJAB HOLDING

3) IV Corps - Lahore - Lt. Gen. Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi - responsibility area opposite Amritsar

Divisions :-
a) 10th Inf - Lahore - Maj. Gen. Shafqaat Ahmed
- 30th Inf Brigade
b) 11th Inf - Lahore - Maj. Gen. Raheel Sharif

Ind Brigades :-
a) 3rd Ind Arm - Lahore
b) 212 Ind Inf - Lahore - Brig. Syed Amjad Shabbir
c) ?? Ind Art


4) XXX Corps - Gujranwala - Lt. Gen. Nadeem Taj

Divisions :-
a) 2nd Art - Gujranwala
b) 8th Inf - Sialkot
c) 15th Inf - Sialkot

Ind Brigades :-
a) 2nd Ind Arm - Rawalpindi
b) ?? Ind Anti Tank
c) 54th Ind Inf
d) Ind Art


5) XXXI Corps - Bahwalpur - Lt. Gen. Muhammad Yousa

Divisions :-
a) 26th Mech - Bahwalpur
b) 35th Inf - Bahwalpur

Ind Brigades :-
a) 13th Ind Arm
b) 101 Ind Inf
c) 105 Ind Inf


C: SINDH


6) V Corps Karachi - Lt. Gen. Shahid Iqbal

Divisions :-
a) 16th Inf - Pano Aqil
b) 18th Inf - Hyderabad - Maj. Gen. Shahid Ahmad Hashmat
c) 25th Mech - Maiir

Ind Brigades :-
a) 31st Mech - Hyderabad
b) 2nd Arm - Hyderabad
c) ?? Ind arm
d) ?? Ind Art


D : J & K


7) X Corps - Rawalpindi - Lt. Gen. Tahir Mahmood - responsibility northern Pakistan and Pakistan-occupied Kashmir

Divisions :-
a) 12th Inf - Muree - Maj. Gen. Maqsood Ahmed
- 6 ( ? ) Inf Brigades
b) 19th Inf - Jhelum - Maj. Gen. Sajjad Ghani - CURRENTLY deployed North SWAT
- 2 Brigades
c) 23rd Inf - Mangla - Maj. Gen. Khadim Hussain - responsibility LOC facing Naushera
- 4 Brigades
d) FCNA - Inf - Gilget - Maj. Gen. Muzammil Hussain
- 5 Brigades (80th Inf Astor, 105th Inf Gilget, 323 Siachin Dansam, 62nd Inf Skardu, 61st Inf ??)

Ind Brigades :-
a) 111st Ind Inf - Rawalpindi - local security in the event of an emergency
b) 8th Ind Arm - Kharian


E : NWFP / FATA

8) X1 Corps - Peshawar - Lt. Gen. Mohammad Masood Aslam - responsibility NWFP, Baluchistan, Afghan border

Divisions :-
a) 7th Inf - Mardan - Maj. Gen. Naweed Zaman - CURRENTLY N Waziristan
b) 9th Inf - Rawalkot - Maj. Gen. Khalid Rabbani - CURRENTLY S Waziristan

Ind Brigades :-
a) ?? Ind Arm - Nowshera



F : BALOCHISTAN

9) XII Corps - Quetta - Lt. Gen. Khalid Shamim Wyane - responsibility western Sindh, the Afghan border, and reinforcement of eastern formations

Divisions :-
a) 33rd Inf - Quetta - Maj. Gen. Tariq Rasheed Khan
b) 41st Inf - Quetta

Ind Brigades :-
a) Ind Inf - Turbat
b) Ind Arm - Khuzdar



G : AFSC

10) Army Strategic Force Command - Rawalpindi - Lt. Gen. Syed Absar Hussain

Army Strategic Force Command
a) 2nd Missile Group - Sargodha
b) ?? Missile Group - Hyderabad

Ind Brigades :-
a) 47th Art



H : AADC

11) Army Air Defence Command - Rawalpindi -


Divisions :-
a) 3rd Air Def - Sargodha
b) 4th Air Def - Maiir



I : SSG

12) Special Service Group - Cherat - Maj. Gen. Muhammad Haroon Aslam

Division Deployment :-
a) Akbar Company (Combat Diver Unit)
b) Iqbal Company (Communications Unit)
c) Zarrar Company (Counter-Terrorism)

Brigades:-
a) 1st SSG (comprises of 3 battallions (total 12 company)
- 1) 1st Commando Battalion
Ayub Company
Liaqat Company
Kamal Company
Mitha Company
- 2) 2nd Commando Battalion
Ghazi Company
Tipu Company
Quaid Company
Bilal Company
- 3) 4th Commando Battalion
Shaheen Company
Jungju Company
Yaqub Company
Yusuf Company
b) 2nd SSG (comprises of 1 battallion (total 4 company)
- 1) 3rd Commando Battalion
Hamza Company
Ibrahim Company
Zakria Company
Easa Company
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Nesoj »

Rahul M wrote:
btw, re-opening an old question, did the 3rd armd div actually happen ?

just for old memories sake ----- circa 2001 retrieved from an old hard disk where I had saved the discussion :-)

After 10 years ---- the same old question ??? "did the 3rd armd div actually happen ?" LOL

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Author Topic: Has Pakistan raised a third armoured division?
Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 23-07-2001 17:42
I read this intriguing claim in Dr. Sanjay Badri-Maharaj's article in the second-last issue of BRM (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE3-6/sbm.html). Hope this catches SBM's eye, since I just saw his post in another thread. So Sanjay, if you read this, please enlighten.

Anyone else have any corroboration on this? Mandeep Bajwa where art thou? Sunil Sainis, did you come across anything indicative of this while trawling for Pak Commanders and OrBat?
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sunil sainis
Member
Member # 1433
posted 23-07-2001 22:39

I haven't seen anything in the officers list but the most recent orbat put out Abhijit Bhattacharya in the Pioneer Op-Ed (July 10/11/12 2001) speaks about a division size armoured formation under IV corps(which for some reason is listed as HQed in Sialkot). That is the only time i have come across a direct reference to a third armd. div. in the PA from an indian officer.

The impression i have is that they have been making independent armd. bdes for a while now.

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Sanjay
Member
Member # 226
posted 24-07-2001 07:04
Hi,
Pakistan's Third Armoured Division was raised in the mid-1990s. This was done in and around 1994-96. A great Pak ORBAT was done in a 1994 Asian Age piece by Pravin Sawhney.

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Rakesh Koshy
Member
Member # 200
posted 24-07-2001 09:55
Sanjay, in your Monitor article, under the Indian Army ORBAT sub-heading you have mentioned, "The other eight Corps are defined as Holding Corps, though they may have significant offensive potential."

Should'nt it be 9 Holding Corps?
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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 24-07-2001 09:58
Thanks, Sunil and Sanjay. Very interesting bit of news. Looks like this is their counter for our third strike corps. If stationed in the upper Punjab area, then looks like it can either counter an expected Indian thrust from Pathankot/Gurdaspur, or launch a strike towards the chicken's neck.

To me, the Rawalpindi based X corps seems like an equally likely choice - put the div in IV corps to defend, and in X corps to attack. (IV corps has had a defensive role in both wars, and X corps has mounted the most threatening thrusts towards Chaamb on both occassions.)

So any more details? Impressions?

For those interested, the article Sunil referes to is at http://www.dailypioneer.com/archives1/s ... am=jul1301

[This message has been edited by Vikram Vyas (edited 24-07-2001).]
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 24-07-2001 16:49
Pakistan does not have a third armd div. They have in the last 3 years raised 2 more indep armmd bdes. But an armd div ? Indep arms bdes are more their style nowadays.
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sunil sainis
Member
Member # 1433
posted 25-07-2001 15:43
managed to pore through Brian Cloughley's book, he claims that the IV Corps has the equivalent of a armoured div. without a formal headquarters.
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maz
Member
Member # 2547
posted 25-07-2001 19:30
I think that the question of whether a 3rd armd div exists or not is rather moot given that ad hoc division sized formations can be easily formed by mixing an matching indep bdes.
Besides, given the tactical situation and the fluidity of the modern day combat, ad hoc formations are commonplace.

I would posit that it is more important to determine if the equivalent of a 3rd armd division can be put together.
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Tim
Member
Member # 272
posted 25-07-2001 19:55
Ad hoc divisions are not necessarily nearly as effective as formal ones, unless they exercise together. The difference between various subdivisions of units is extremely significant, particularly as you move towards the higher formations. Most non-Western armies have trouble operating beyond the brigade level - for instance, even though Iraq had over 50 division-sized formations, over 60% (at a minimum) were incapable of coherent combined arms ops.

So "throwing together" a few brigades is very, very different from instituting a coherent divisional sized formation, with established lines of command and rehearsed and practiced operational parameters.

A very good example of an ineffective effort to coordinate a large numbers of brigade sized formations is the Iraqi assault at Khafji, early in the Gulf War.

Tim
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Rudra Singha
Member
Member # 3011
posted 25-07-2001 21:21
But then again...whats the pressing need to
have them all operate together ?

they might just let loose a pack of armoured
brigades all over the place to confuse and
hopefully draw much bigger indian response
while keeping their ARS and ARN as main
strike spears a few day(s) later.

Is the PA all-volunteer force and their
officer corps better than Iraqi army ?
remember the Iraqis must have lost a lot of
veteran soldiers and officers -vs- Iran. and
then had their comm nodes attacked and
movements heavily disrupted by a huge 30day
air campaign.

India will have none of these advantages.
The technology and starting point will be
much more even.
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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 26-07-2001 09:30
I can understand a corps having one indep armd bde, but why three? Is it something to do with geography? India has three indep armd bdes in XVI corps, and now it seems Pak is mirroring that directly across the border...

I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are more expensive than one unified div. So what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?
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Subra
Member
Member # 3046
posted 26-07-2001 09:55
Vikram:

If you lookat a lot of Puki formations they all mirror Indian setup.

Another example take a look at the SSG
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 26-07-2001 15:11
quote:
Originally posted by Subra:
Vikram:

If you lookat a lot of Puki formations they all mirror Indian setup.

Another example take a look at the SSG

The SSG predates our Special Forces by over 15 years.

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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 26-07-2001 17:17
So we seem to have:

(1) 2-3 recently formed armd bdes, most likely indep groups
(2) northern pak Punjab is the most likely operational area for these bdes.

So what does that tell us about Pak strategy?

I am developing this as I go along, so please tell me if I am totally off course.

Firstly, the geography. I looked at a terrain map of the area north of the Sakargarh bulge. For those who want to follow along on a map, this is roughly
_
POK \ Jammu
* \
/
Pak Punjab/ Punjab


The * represents Sialkot (roughly)

On the Indian side, the Pir Panjal range is almost parallel to the IB/LOC for about a 100 km as the crow flies. The dist between the foothills and LOC is as short as 10 km in the Chicken's neck area. The rest of the area is plains. This gives a huge advantage to Pak, because the area on their side is flat plains, while we have some very uncooperative terrain consisting of Pir Panjal range and Chenab river.

Second, the geopolitics. Our only all-weather link to the valley passess through Pathankot - Akhnur, then northwards. Sever this link, and we can reach the valley only via Rohtang Pass and Zoji La - that too, only in good weather. (Am I correct in this appreciation?)

This is why we have this huge entity called XVI corps. Given that we do not have strategic depth in this area (and this is no state secret) we have to be equally strong at all points. Given that Pak can easily use armour in this area, we need to spread out our armour evenly across the entire strip, to protect ourselves from any point of attack. That is why we need three indep armd bdes. Each has its own defined area of ops, and all are placed for defensive tasks. (Remember I am thinking aloud on this, so let me know if this sounds reasonable).

That kind of explains why we need three indep armd bdes. But that is because of our unique geography in the area. Pak is under no such compulsions. So why does it need to mirror our deployment in the area?

So the next question is, are thse brigades really deployed in this area, or are they ment for someplace else?

Remember, we are discussing Pakistani intentions here, so no need to be shy. Indian OrBat rules don't apply
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bishwa
Member
Member # 305
posted 26-07-2001 18:56
This is why we have this huge entity called XVI corps. Given that we do not have strategic depth in
this area (and this is no state secret) we have to be equally strong at all points.

It will be interesting to know where the IAF Hind Attack Helicopters are based. Will not be surprised if atleast a squadron operates in this area.

But that is because of our unique
geography in the area. Pak is under no such compulsions. So why does it need to mirror our
deployment in the area?

Possibly because we always attack in this sector

[This message has been edited by bishwa (edited 26-07-2001).]
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sunil sainis
Member
Member # 1433
posted 26-07-2001 23:23
hi,

> we always attack in this sector.

Bishwa, that was the first thing on my mind.. then i remembered this.

http://www.defencejournal.com/june98/op ... windup.htm


I wonder if `Wind Up' is of any relevance.

Hayat is crazy.. but still the talk has always been that the `riposte' will be somewhere in AR south areas... what if it more to the north?

Alternately.. maybe they are going towards an army reserve centre? unlikely.. but still..

[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 26-07-2001).]
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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 27-07-2001 15:23
Possibly because we always attack in this sector
Hmm. There's something in this that we can develop. I was looking slightly towards the nortt, where THEY always attacked. We have always attacked towards the Sakargarh bulge. Hope the damn thing works this time -

\Jammu
*\
/ Pathankot
/

* represents Sakargarh

IV corps is in charge of defending the bulge. A very illuminating piece is the attack by IA in 1971, when three (weakened) prongs attacked the bulge from north, south, and east. Maybe Paks are fighting the last war(s), and want to make sure that the Indian attacks don't succeed this time - so they have three indep bdes, one for each expected direction of attack. They would use the bdes as reserves to be thrown in to counter any Indian penetration. They would want three indep bdes so that they do not have to move armour around. And as Sunil suggests, a "Wind-Up" kind of operation can be launched with two or three of these bdes acting in tandem.

But then again, they can do the same thing by using a unified armd div. They have the luxury of concentrating their forces without having to worry about inconvenient mountain ranges. Either way, having these armd bdes in the bulge gives them great defensive-offense flexibility.

Bottom line, I am inclined to conclude that the paks have a armd div equivalent (maybe even a unified armd div) for defending the bulge. We will find out what it really is only when one of our strike corps goes visiting. Its good that IA atleast knows about this div equivalent. An improvement over 65 when they did not know there was a second armd div waiting for them.
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bishwa
Member
Member # 305
posted 27-07-2001 15:39
They have the luxury
of concentrating their forces without having to worry about inconvenient mountain ranges.

They need those three brigades to watch their backs which is all round them in the shakargarh bulge unfortunately.
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Badar
Member
Member # 699
posted 28-07-2001 03:43
Hi,

I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are more expensive than one unified div. So what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?

I would have thought the other way around. Larger combat formations like divisions tend to be more expensive than an equivalent collection of brigades because of the large number of expensive specialist support troops (Engg, signals etc) that they have on their TOE's.
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sunil sainis
Member
Member # 1433
posted 28-07-2001 12:57
I got this out of BC's book.

The pakistani army's armd. div.'s rough TOE
is as follows. (Someone please correct me if i am wrong somewhere)

Armd Div.

Armd Bdes (2)
(Comprising 3 Tank Regts each, each regiment contains 3-4 Sabre Sqns and has 41(mandeep)-59(BC) tanks, a squadron contain 3 sabre troops, a troop has 3 tanks )

Arty Bde (1)
(Comprising 3/more Arty Regiments, each regiment has 3/more batteries (totally about 18-24 Guns, Each battery has 6-8 guns)
(in pakistani army the Arty bde attached to a Armd div. usually consists of Self-Propelled guns)

Infantry Bde (1)
(Usually a mech inf formation i.e with APCs instead of covered trucks, comprising 3/more battalions, each Bn consists of 3/more companies, each company numbers about 10-15 sections, each section numbers 15-20 men)

The rest of this post is my guesswork.

The Armd. Div also contains

Engg Regt(1)
Medical Regt(1)
Signals Regt(1)
Service Corps Regt(1)
Air Defence Regt (1)
HQ and Admin Troop(1)
Intelligence Company(1)
Command Staff (??)

Pakistani infantry division's TOE comprises

Inf. Bde (3)(** corrected as per mandeep's suggestion- Thanks Mandeep).

Armd Regt. (1)
Arty Regt. (1) (with towed guns)
Medical Regt (1)
Service Corps Regt (1)
Engg Company (1/2)
Signals Company (1/2)
Air Defence Company (1)
HQ and Admin troop,
Intelligence company (1),
Command Staff(??)


[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 28-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by sunil sainis (edited 28-07-2001).]
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 28-07-2001 15:53
The Pakistani Inf Div has 3 x Inf Bdes not just 2.
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 28-07-2001 15:59
The number of tanks in a Pakistani armd regt is as follows :-
1. A sabre tp has 3 x tanks
2. A sabre sqn has 13 x tanks
4 x 3 tk tps
1 x control tank, used by the sqn comdr
3. An armd regt has 41 tanks
3 x 13 tank sqns
2 x command tanks, CO and 2IC
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sunil sainis
Member
Member # 1433
posted 28-07-2001 16:35
Mandeep,

Brian Cloughley mentions that there are tank regiments with 59 tanks also.

So if i follow your list correctly. then quite possibly there are pakistani regiments that have 4 sabre squadrons per regiment.

I was wondering how many recce troops are there per regiment?

Also are some tanks maintained in the unit reserve?

Brian also mentions that the tank regiments are sometimes refered to as Frontier Force Regiments (This is different from the Frontier Force Regiment of Infantry).. is this accurate?

Also what is a TDU in relation to a troop?
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Sanjay
Member
Member # 226
posted 28-07-2001 17:33
Hello,

May I just add a twist here:

I learnt of the 3rd. Pak armoured div in 1994 from very reliable Indian sources who published it as part of an ORBAT given in an Asian Age weekend special entitled 'If India and Pakistan go to war' ( or something like that ). The ref. is in my book and is in the endnoted version of the BRM article.

On a semi-related point, and BC will never admit this, the Pak armoured units are in a serious state of disrepair and spares for the older tanks are a bit of a problem. Many armoured regiments are now down to 'bricks' of under 35 tanks.
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Subra
Member
Member # 3046
posted 28-07-2001 18:22
Mandeep:
More specifically I was referring tot he raising of SSG 221 Bn when we raised 21 sF.

Not the numbers too.

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Rakesh Koshy
Member
Member # 200
posted 28-07-2001 21:15
Subra,

Can you please check your yahoo email?

Thanks.
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Amitabh
Member
Member # 19
posted 29-07-2001 10:53
To add to what Sanjay wrote, I was told after the Kargil war that the PA was very worried about an Indian assault a-la 1965, since its armoured formations were in poor shape logistically.

More recently, a Pakistani journalist told me that the budget cuts have seriously affected the PA's routine operations e.g. mess food etc. (we all remember Napoleon's dictum, right ). Sounds implausible, but explains a lot of Musharraf's recent gestures if true!

[This message has been edited by Amitabh (edited 29-07-2001).]
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 29-07-2001 16:24
quote:
Originally posted by sunil sainis:
Mandeep,

Brian Cloughley mentions that there are tank regiments with 59 tanks also.

So if i follow your list correctly. then quite possibly there are pakistani regiments that have 4 sabre squadrons per regiment.

I was wondering how many recce troops are there per regiment?

Also are some tanks maintained in the unit reserve?

Brian also mentions that the tank regiments are sometimes refered to as Frontier Force Regiments (This is different from the Frontier Force Regiment of Infantry).. is this accurate?

Also what is a TDU in relation to a troop?

1. Cloughley's info is inaccurate in many respects and where it deviates from conventional wisdom should always be taken with a liberal pinch of salt. No Pak armd regt has as many as 59 tanks.
2. The same way no Pak armd regt has more than 3 x sabre sqns.
3. Each armd regt has 1 x recce tp.
4. Each armd regt has a wastage reserve of 10-15 tanks which are held by the ordnance depots/tank delivery units.
5. The Punjab Irregular Frontier Force comprised of units of cavalry,infantry and artillery. In the Pak armd corps now the old FF regts are Guides Cavalry,11 PAVO Cavalry and 12 Sam Browne's Cavalry with a new raising 23 Cavalry also getting to use the FF designation because of the old 23 Cavalry (FF) now forming part of PAVO.
6. TDUs were lt armd regts given this designation for deception purposes. These became regular armd regts after '65. Nowadays a TDU is just that; a unit with a small cadre of personnel to hold and deliver tanks from ordnance depots to armd regts.

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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 30-07-2001 11:01
We have two BRF gurus (Mandeep and Sanjay) politely but firmly disagreeing on whether the armoured formation is a div or a div equivalent. And a third guru (Sunil) has resolutely deployed himself on the fence. So we seem to have an impasse of LoC proportions on our hands.

No problem. This thread is going into interesting territory, so can I request Sunil to post his latest Pak Div-level orbat here? Would be good to get the overall picture.

As for the TOEs for Pak armoured divs, they are numerically close to Indian armd divs, but some critical support elements (AD and engr bdes) are significantly weaker than the Indian equivalents. This implies that they can't be used for really deep thrusts, since their range will be limited by the range of whatever air cover PAF can afford.

Another related and important point is that with the recent budget decreases, training will be the biggest loser. They can not cut back too much on war wastage reserves, but it is very easy to let training standards deteriorate. The aftereffects are not apparent in peacetime, and they may even delude themselves that nukes will make massive conventional battles obsolete.
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dsandhu
Member
Member # 1178
posted 30-07-2001 11:15
Vikram

I would go with Mandeep Bajwa. There is no one on the BRF who knows as much about Pak. army and its formations as Mandeep. I will go one step forward and say that Mandeep is the top among civilians in India regarding knowledge about Pak army and its formations.

On the other side we should know that 98 % of the Indian civilian scribes who write about defence matters hardly know a thing. The good Indian scribes you can count on the fingers of one hand.

JAI JAWAN
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Rudra Singha
Member
Member # 3011
posted 30-07-2001 11:18
I spent the weekend locating and reading all
the pakdef archives. a few points:

- they very proud of Multan based strike
corps, rating it as best non-NATO/non-israel
strike corps. equipped with t_80, t_85,
a beefed up ATGM force and Cobra helos.
They are confident this can stop the expected
indian thrust to rahim yar khan.

- they have roads and rail behind the indus
north-south so are not really afraid of
great gains by india in the sector. there is
talk of linking gwader, ormara with N.Pak
thru roads in NWFP, baluchistan and thru
afghanistan.

- a new strategy seems to be attack in kutch
region to threaten a breakthru into gujrats
industrial heartland. some sort of armour div
and a detached Cobra force is posted in that
region.

- Cobras mainly to be used for raiding the
rear of indian divs on march rather than as
ATGM shooters (too few to matter). so they
talk of targeting indian div/corps HQs and
supply train (esp fuel truck convoys) at
night using nap-of-earth and NVG and ofcourse
the Cobras small profile.

- they are very confident about their MANPADS
cover. feel IAF doesnt have enough hi-alt
precision munitions to take out significant
chunks of fast moving armour forces, nor IA
has enuf SP artillery, so IAF will be forced
to move low and fast and be in MANPADS bubble.

- similarly the lack of hi-alt SAMs in PA
inventory is dismissed in that IAFs munitions
will force planes to move low, and a
infrequent jab by Mig25s can be ignored.

- a rumor that Mig25s are grounded due to
lack of spares.

- they expect to make major gains in J&K
using local support where available and
jehadi types were not to disrupt IAs rear.

- they are mortally afraid and worried by
IAFs pending aquisition of Phalcons and
are resigned to waiting till PRC makes a
indigenous one. some hot talk of exporting
Shaheens to israel's neighbours as revenge
but tempered by many harsh realities.

- Amitabh turning up there to poke them with
news of P17 construction starting

- they consider the Strike corps(2) and the
Agosta subs to be their pride. they are
resigned to PN being in very defensive role
with Agosta used for offense.

Thats the gist of all the threads I read.
overall, there is less religion and hindoo
bashing there now, they have cleaned up their
act somewhat and some knowledgeable posters
do exist, a few juvenile ones too. Uzair
(a sometime poster here, and probably a
100% lurker) is a junior admin now. SyedA
is a sort of semi-active father figure...

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Vikram Vyas
Member
Member # 281
posted 30-07-2001 13:15
quote:
Hi,

I would figure that three full TOE indep armd bdes are more expensive than one unified div. So
what would three indep bdes do for a corps mission that a unified div can't?

I would have thought the other way around. Larger combat formations like divisions tend to be
more expensive than an equivalent collection of brigades because of the large number of
expensive specialist support troops (Engg, signals etc) that they have on their TOE's.

That's precisely why I think unified divs are less expensive - when you form indep bdes, you have to supply them with specialist regts like engrs, sigs and arty. And it would not just be 1/3 of a div's assets, because a div gets more out of the specialists by concentrating them. Let me give you an oudated example to fix ideas - 120 Indp Bde guarding Kargil pre-1999 had four inf batts. Regular bdes have three. Same with indep armd bdes. If you add up manpower and equipment required for three indep armd bdes, it should come to more than that required for a regular div. This, ofcourse, in an ideal army. Pak army is NOT an ideal army.

Rudra, thanks for the compilation. Some interesting tidbits that need to be digested. Rest is Pak bakwas. For instance, my dearest wish is that they try an armoured atack into Kutch. Please PervezJI pretty please. Meri yeh ek khwaish poori karon!

[This message has been edited by Vikram Vyas (edited 30-07-2001).]
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Sanjay
Member
Member # 226
posted 30-07-2001 17:08
Hi,
Just so you know, the author of the Asian Age piece that indicated the Third Armoured Division was Major Pravin Sawhney - Indian Army retd.
That's why I am forced to take such a claim seriously.
If I'm wrong, gladly I'll admit it. However, the matter is, unfortunately, still up in the air.
As per why I listed 8 instead of 9 Holding Corps, well that's called timing. The book was handed to the publisher before the 9th Holding corps was raised. Besides, it appears that a move to designate all Holding Corps as 'Pivot Corps'.
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 01-08-2001 10:21
Thanks a ton, Dave for the compliment ! Its very welcome !
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Mandeep Bajwa
Member
Member # 1933
posted 01-08-2001 10:39
I must compliment Rudra on his perceptive analysis collated through some very dilligent work. This is very good stuff ! Keep it coming !
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rrikhye
Member
Member # 2000
posted 01-08-2001 18:15
Folks, a pleasure to read the thread - people for once trying to ferret out facts instead of everyone blasting off their opinions!

I'd also go unquestioningly with Mandeep, even if I am now forced o write articles and sign his name for my web magazine, because people keep asking me where he is. The shame of it all.

You may recall (maybe not - most of BRFF seems rather young) during the 1986-87 Winter exercises people kept talking of 3 armored divisions for India - no such thing at the time. Sometimes someone runs a CPX with an armored brigade and an infantry brigade and refers to it as an armored division or whatever, and intel picks it up, checks it out, and learns there is no new armored div, but the first info gets stuck.

Operating an armored div as an armored div is very, very hard and Pakistan is being sensible in going for independent armored brigades - much easier to handle. BTW, in the order of things, usually two ind. armored brigades have 80-90% of the combat battalions of an armored division.

The article mentioned has got an awful lot of new raisings for Pakistan and I just dont think that is happening. Mandeep alerted me to a possible new division raising around Sargodha, I honestly think that's about it since the early 1990s, and with XI Corps losing one division to FCNA, they surely need at least one to replace.

May I as a favor request anyone on BRF who knows who sent me money for the scenario to let them know to contact me? The draft is almost ready. I've gone through the 100th revision of the Indian orbat, and enough is enough. Writing for a hypotehtical future is very hard orbat wise because so many things are possible. Yesterday India lost Baramula to the XXIV (Afghans) Corps, a mixed Pakistan-Afghan light mountain corps, and the seige of Srinager is underway.

If you want confusion, wait till this scenario comes out, and some person will pick up the made-up numbers which are interspersed with the real ones, and then we are really going to have trouble in these dciscussions. There is no XXIV (Afghans) Corps, but if Pakistan had any smarts, there would be one, and I'm fairly sure some of their people have suggested it - no great enthusiasm as yet, the Pakistanis feel they dont need anyone's infantry. That may change because such a corps would cost a third of a regular Pakistani corps. Anyhows, back to work.
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Rakesh Koshy
Member
Member # 200
posted 01-08-2001 18:18
As per why I listed 8 instead of 9 Holding Corps, well that's called timing. The book was handed to the publisher before the 9th Holding corps was raised. Besides, it appears that a move to designate all Holding Corps as 'Pivot Corps'

Thank you Sanjay for clearing that up. Any particular reason why they might be called Pivot Corps?
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rrikhye
Member
Member # 2000
posted 01-08-2001 20:48
Oh this American mania for renaming everything. The whole point of a corps is it is a general purpose formation and should not be named strike or holding or pivot or anything.

Anyways: pivot (IMHO) suggests that (1) it can attack or defend; (2) it can move to the left or right to face threats or take advantage as needed; (3) it can switch roles quickly.

Since all army corps are supposed to do this anyway, I dont know why anyone is bothering to give a special name.

The old Indian system of strike and holding corps was also named in a silly way. All corps attack when the need arises, and all hold when the need arises.
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Sanjay
Member
Member # 226
posted 02-08-2001 20:04
Hi,

Mr. Rikhye, I have to recommend the piece to you and perhaps you can independently verify or not whether it is correct.

Asian Age: 12-13 November 1994,
"If India and Pakistan go to War" by Major Pravin Sawhney who was then the Asian Age's Defence correpsondent. Incidentally, Sawhney left the army in 1988-89 or so.

Any author must cite sources and when the most recent ORBAT then published of the Pak. army indicates its formations as such, I regret to say that I cannot unquestionly ignore anything.

To quote directly from you:
"Readers are assured that the figures given here are more authentic but nonetheless, not 100% accurate."
( R.Rikye, 'The War that Never Was', p.48 )

The same dilemma confronts me.

Mandeep may well be correct for his efforts in ascertaining the Pak ORBAT are most impressive. Yet, one must also weigh the point that Sawhney is no fool. Regretably, ORBAT for publication cannot be given on 'feeling'.

On a much more practical note, at the time the thing was being compiled, Mandeep was not around ! The ORBAT was done in 1996-98.

Be that as it may, I have telephoned the author of the ORBAT ( Sawhney ) and he as indicated very strongly that the ORBAT is more or less accurate. So, once again I am back to where I started.

Rakesh, as per the 'Pivot Corps' redesignation, in 1999/2000, the Indian army doctrine was altered again. Details are still very sketchy. However, it appears that old ideas are being re-assessed for their viability. One of the things that Poorna-Vijay dealt with was the continuing viability of the DCB defences.

Mandeep, how about this, drop me an e-mail and let us compare some notes on this stuff ?

As per the third Armoured Division, reading some pieces from the period, it was indicated that the 3rd. Armoured Div was to be formed to accomodate the T-80UD tanks.
In other words, the Pakistanis were going to raise a new formation to mass its new tanks.

ORBATs are strange things and I must also say, as those who know me ( Rakesh and Rupak in particular ) that I am not an ORBAT fanatic and tend to rely on the figures generated by those I trust ( makes it easier to footnote {could you imagine a footnote saying "ORBAT entirely made up by author from confidential sources ?"} and it also prevents my personal opinions colouring these things ).

Two developments that may be of interest to Forum members:

1) A large number of T-55s are being earmarked for R&O battalions in the Indian army. Variants of the BMP-2 are also being used.

2) NBC Recce vehicles may soon be part of all divisional formations.

As an aside, it appears that the manufacture of NBC respirators in India is the primary responsibility of a private sector firm called Joseph Leslie Draeger, which operates with German technology. Not strictly relevant to this thread, but I thought those who're reading this would be interested.

[This message has been edited by Sanjay (edited 02-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sanjay (edited 02-08-2001).]
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dsandhu
Member
Member # 1178
posted 03-08-2001 10:14
Here's a 90's Pak Orbat (This too lists only 2 Armoured Divs along with a number of indep. armoured brigades)
http://members.tripod.com/israindia/pak_army_orbat.html

[This message has been edited by dsandhu (edited 03-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by dsandhu (edited 03-08-2001).]
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rohitvats
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by rohitvats »

From the point of above discussion in 2001 till now, no news has been heard, at least by me, of a new PA Armored Division. All though, we now know that PA has additional mechanized division each with XXXI and V Corps - these formations would have taken up whatever additional armor assets PA has been able to create (and had) in form of (I) armored brigades and IMO, nothing would have been left for an armored division.

Another important data point, which was not there in 2001 discussion, is the Op. Parakram and deployment of Indian Armored formations in parallel from Fazilka-Abohar to Barmer. This is know to have set the alarm bells ringing in GHQ as it exposed the soft under-belly of Pakistan. With only V and XXXI Corps in that area, PA would have been forced to draw assets from ARS (if not the whole ARS - though, the same was highly likely) to counter this formidable array of assets against it. The raising of mechanized divisions has been considered as a response to this development during Op. Parakram. This increment in the offensive capability of holding corps in PA also allows them to counter CSD in these sectors with-out recourse to ARS.
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Rahul M »

rohit, there's nothing 'tech' about BR wiki. you sign up, click edit (or 'create new page' for new topic) and add the content just like you would post in BR. simple as that.
Singha
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Singha »

what are the key differences between a pakistan div between 1999 and 2011 ?
[a] has their force of khalids and T80U increased or updated? at what rate? are both of these having CITV and night fighting ability?
has their artillery been modernized in networking and uav integration?
[c] I know they have been gifted around 100 M109A5 SP guns, where are these guns allocated - penny packets or a couple of powerful indep arty brigades?
[d] how many Grad and WS1 rockets are they estimated to have ?
[e] have they been increasing holding of other artillery like 155 mm and 105mm guns via channels like turkey? iirc they signed a deal for 155mm ammo with a south korean co.
[f] what is the condition and upgrade of their older tanks ?
[g] have they been given new WLR units to replace the old antpq36?
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by Lalmohan »

the only think that would make me dhoti shiver about pak capabilities is if unkil has been teaching them C3 or C4-variants. given the limited air assets (non lethal) at their disposal, i would guess unkil has been careful, but he has given munna WLR's etc., so we need to understand also what the paquis have done w.r.t. NCW
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Re: Pakistan Army ORBAT

Post by nikhil_p »

Singha wrote:what are the key differences between a pakistan div between 1999 and 2011 ?
[a] has their force of khalids and T80U increased or updated? at what rate? are both of these having CITV and night fighting ability? - AFAIK they had a 100 Khalids and 300 or something on order. T80U's were approx 320. Sipri does not report any further order! has their artillery been modernized in networking and uav integration?
khan is still there. Probably they are getting networked but nothing that khan cannot spy on. ;)[c] I know they have been gifted around 100 M109A5 SP guns, where are these guns allocated - penny packets or a couple of powerful indep arty brigades?
IIRC Paanwala had said that they are assigned to the 'spearhead brig's' A few remain in penny packet allocation for Inf. support.[d] how many Grad and WS1 rockets are they estimated to have ?
[e] have they been increasing holding of other artillery like 155 mm and 105mm guns via channels like turkey? iirc they signed a deal for 155mm ammo with a south korean co.
[f] what is the condition and upgrade of their older tanks ? - T59 being converted to Zaraar std. (75% of existing).[g] have they been given new WLR units to replace the old antpq36?


My answers in Bold.
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