Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Apr 2015 08:15

Interview with Gen Khalid Kidwai Chief Pakistan Strategic Planning Division

https://youtu.be/CNZCw0BXKyE

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Apr 2015 08:26

Shaheen 3 IRBM Test Launch

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2j2dc4

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Apr 2015 22:41

New Pakistan air chief hails F-16s' role in North Waziristan campaign

The Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) four F-16 squadrons are now involved in supporting the army's campaign against the Taliban in Pakistan's Federally Administered Tribal Area (FATA).

Since the PAF started working closer with the army back in mid-2008 its F-16s have doubled in number and capabilities.

A squadron of Block 52 F-16s delivered in 2010 has been joined by two squadrons of F-16A/B Mid Life Update (MLU) aircraft upgraded by Turkish Aerospace Industries between 2012 and 2014. In 2014 the PAF also took delivery of another batch of F-16A/Bs from Jordan.

"ISR is the key to our joint operations with the army," new PAF Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman told IHS Jane's . "The days of relying on four-digit co-ordinates and HUMINT are gone."

But the advance in technologies is not solely down to the F-16s and the DB-110 reconnaissance pods delivered by the US government as an urgent operational requirement in January 2009.

"The [Lockheed Martin] C-130Bs we are operating, retrofitted with the [Star Safire III] FLIRS [forward looking infrared systems] are doing a great job. Not just for their ISR capabilities but to help us carry out precise targeting," said ACM Aman.

When operations started in 2008 the F-16s in inventory - which were acquired in the early-1980s - could only be used for daytime strikes, but this changed with the arrival of more capable aircraft, he added.

"The [Thomson-CSF] ATLIS-II pods were only good for day ops, but when we acquired the [Lockheed Martin] Sniper targeting pods there was a marked increase in our capabilities and we could strike these people day and night," added the Chief of Air Staff (CAS), who was promoted from Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) on 19 March.

"We have put special focus on mapping the areas with the DB-110s. These pods have really helped us," he added. "Sniper used with GBU-10 or GBU-12 is now our standard fit."

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Apr 2015 05:09

Austin wrote:New Pakistan air chief hails F-16s' role in North Waziristan campaign

But the advance in technologies is not solely down to the F-16s and the DB-110 reconnaissance pods delivered by the US government as an urgent operational requirement in January 2009.

"We have put special focus on mapping the areas with the DB-110s. These pods have really helped us," he added. "Sniper used with GBU-10 or GBU-12 is now our standard fit."[/b]

Major acquisition is DB 110 pods, which IAF operates on some of its recon planes and intends to purchase for MKIs.

America sure knows how to keep India in check.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 30 Apr 2015 08:17

New article on my blog:

LCA versus F-16 in combat (part-I)

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 30 Apr 2015 08:39

Excellent analysis Vivek. Can't wait for part 2.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 30 Apr 2015 09:09

Austin wrote:Shaheen 3 IRBM Test Launch

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2j2dc4

Looks very similar to the DF-21 and exacctly like the Shaheen -2, so Shaheen -2 andd then Shahenn-3 is just for H&D. 14 seconds after launch the missile starts moving in a parabolic arc, the Agni launches even Agni-1?prithvi tests keep going straight up for a longer time, I think this was to use a tragetory which does not acheive maximum range.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2015 16:51

The Range by the SPD Kidwai of Shaheen 3 is 2750 km and he explicity says that covers entire India including A&N.

Range is a function of Payload , Trajectory and Energy so with appropriate trade longer or shorter range is possible , Compared to Shaheen-2 claimed range of 2000km the Shaheen-3 claimed range of 2750 km is just 750 km longer so like 25 % increase in range essentially Shaheen-2 is modified to get that range.

Probably the Reentry vehical is tested for higher speeds not sure if they succeded or not.

From our POV since these missile travel at altitude of 300 km we need high altitude interceptor for Mid-Course defence as it traveses through indian subcontinent. AD-1 AD-2 should be it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-36UBkEI9UPk/T ... milies.jpg

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 06 May 2015 19:37

Pakistan Gets 14 Aircraft from US

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 06 May 2015 23:13

SSji and other gurus
Apart from the satp portal are there any good source for TSPA casualties in blowchistan and rah e rust to herb e buzz operations.

I was having the discussion on non compliance of the miskeen of the command of the fourfather.

The way of operations seems to be very casualty averse, also fits with the non compliance. They have been hit hard and badly.

Also how far has blowchistan been pakthunized as compared to before.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 May 2015 09:32

Look for the official pak army 'shaheed' list

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2015 16:00

way I see it in the next 10 years, netherland, belgium, denmark, norway, portugal, greece, turkey are going to retire some 250+ F-16 airframes between MLU to block52 and buy the JSF.

some of them could have a lot of hrs left if refurbished when Khan will gladly do for free for its munna.

so better plan for this - PAF retiring all its F7, Mirage3, Mirage5 and getting F-16 instead, with a good pkg of latest weapons.
I think their A5 is already retired.

add to that 100s of usaf F-16 will also retire to make way for the JSF. another bowl of meat to loot.

in parallel they will build the JF17

China would not sell them the J10 as that represents the cutting edge of their domestic effort and the first one that lands in TSP will be rerouted to Langley for analysis (for a small baksheesh). the F-16 is 2 levels below Khan's current projects so they do not care if cheen takes a squadron of them...they know the key secrets of material and process of the mighty F110 engine cannot be x-rayed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 May 2015 09:06

US hands over 14 combat aircraft, 59 military trainer jets to Pakistan: report

The United States handed over Pakistan on Wednesday 14 combat aircraft, 59 military trainer jets and 374 armoured personnel carriers which were earlier used in Afghanistan and Iran.

“As the US withdraws its forces from neighbouring Afghanistan, the major defence articles have been transferred to Pakistan under its ‘Excessive Defence Article’ category, an internal Congressional report said, according to the Economic Times.

India in the past has opposed to the transfer of such arms to Pakistan as it believes Islamabad would eventually use the fighter jets against it.

Pakistan has either made full payment or will make payments from its national funds towards the purchase of 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 Fighting FalconBSE -4.69 % combat aircraft worth $1.43 billion, according to the internal report prepared by Congressional Research Service (CRS), an independent research wing of the Congress.

This includes F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 1,450 2,000-pound bombs, 500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits. These have cost Pakistan $629 million.

Pakistan has also paid $298 million for 100 harpoon anti-ship missiles, 500 sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($ 95 million) and seven Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns ($80 million).

Pakistan received 26 Bell 412EP utility helicopters along with related parts and maintenance, val valued at $235 million under the Coalition Support.

Pakistan is also receiving military equipment with a mix of its national funds and America’s foreign military funding.

These include 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft.

Pakistan has purchased 45 such kits, with all upgrades completed to date. This include 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers.

Under Frontier Corps and Pakistan Counterinsurgency Fund authorities, US has provided four Mi-17 multirole helicopters (another six were provided temporarily at no cost), four King Air 350 surveillance aircraft, and 450 vehicles.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 09 May 2015 12:55

How long before this is transferred to pukistan?

North Korea 'test-fires submarine-launched missile'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-32671101

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 May 2015 13:26

Baby Kim Looking Happy

What range is this ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2015 14:39

Birather Bokisatan at help

S. Arabia calls in off-the-shelf nuke option with Pakistan – report

Saudi Arabia is widely believed to have bankrolled the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. In exchange, Riyadh reportedly expects Islamabad to provide missiles in times of trouble to defend the kingdom.

“For the Saudis the moment has come,” a former American defense official told the newspaper. “There has been a longstanding agreement in place with the Pakistanis, and the House of Saud has now made the strategic decision to move forward.”

According to the report, no actual transfer of weapons has taken place yet, but “the Saudis mean what they say and they will do what they say,” the source reportedly said.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 18 May 2015 20:28

So the Americans knew about this arrangement, too, and never said a word; no alarm bells rang in western hyuman rights/anti-war/anti-nuclear groups whatsoever. The dual face of western diplomacy never cease to be what it is, even for outright black market of nuclear weapons.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 22 May 2015 07:34

The Pakistani Army has inducted the Chinese HQ-7B short range air defense system. The Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif inspected the unit yesterday, witnessing training activity that included missile firing. The export system is designated FM-90 in Pakistan’s service can engage aerial targets including cruise missiles, drones and air-to-surface guided missiles under adverse electronic counter measure (ECM) environments.

The HQ-7B is a improved version of the HQ-7 (FM-80), itself, a Chinese copy of the French Crotale surface-to-air missile. The system is produced by by China’s National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 May 2015 07:48

15km slant range. One more reason for IAF to induct PGMs en masse.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 22 May 2015 07:58

Austin wrote:Birather Bokisatan at help

S. Arabia calls in off-the-shelf nuke option with Pakistan – report

Saudi Arabia is widely believed to have bankrolled the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. In exchange, Riyadh reportedly expects Islamabad to provide missiles in times of trouble to defend the kingdom.

“For the Saudis the moment has come,” a former American defense official told the newspaper. “There has been a longstanding agreement in place with the Pakistanis, and the House of Saud has now made the strategic decision to move forward.”

According to the report, no actual transfer of weapons has taken place yet, but “the Saudis mean what they say and they will do what they say,” the source reportedly said.

So, nukes are just code word for missiles? And saudis want to use paki missiles? So, paki missiles actually work?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2015 09:31

AFM : PAF Chief Interview

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 4072096579

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 May 2015 09:42

vishvak wrote:So the Americans knew about this arrangement, too, and never said a word; no alarm bells rang in western hyuman rights/anti-war/anti-nuclear groups whatsoever. The dual face of western diplomacy never cease to be what it is, even for outright black market of nuclear weapons.

vishvak, the Americans were part and parcel of the most lethal, and the most fraudulent proliferation in the history of nuclear weapons and their delivery systems when they helped Pakistan acquire these systems. American Presidents lied to their own people, they mounted a massive coverup and they even framed laws in the Congress that were drafted in Islamabad ! So, what are you surprised about?

Pakistan and many anti-Americans say that it was the US that created jihadism in this part of the world. That is not entirely accurate. But, if one says that it was the US that was solely responsible for the nuclear WMDs to fall in the hands of these jihadists (when that happens, not if), that will certainly be accurate.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2015 22:31

vaibhav.n wrote:
The Pakistani Army has inducted the Chinese HQ-7B short range air defense system. The Chief of Army Staff (COAS) General Raheel Sharif inspected the unit yesterday, witnessing training activity that included missile firing. The export system is designated FM-90 in Pakistan’s service can engage aerial targets including cruise missiles, drones and air-to-surface guided missiles under adverse electronic counter measure (ECM) environments.

The HQ-7B is a improved version of the HQ-7 (FM-80), itself, a Chinese copy of the French Crotale surface-to-air missile. The system is produced by by China’s National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC).

Looks like Chinese and Iran are the only two countries today that have successfully reverse engineered multiple Western/Eastern system and improvised upon it.

The common thing among both is the decades of sanction they were in more so for Iran.....Prolly Necessity is the Mother of all ~~Invention~~ Reverse Engineering applies to them , Amazing !

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 May 2015 23:01

ISIS claims it could buy nuke from Pakistan within a year

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 May 2015 19:41

That's a copy of the French Crotale, that the French gave ToT to China, and Pakistan had as well. The same HQ-9 arms Pakistani F-22P frigates. Doesn't look like the latest VT-1 missiles either.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 May 2015 08:20

tsarkar wrote:That's a copy of the French Crotale, that the French gave ToT to China, and Pakistan had as well. The same HQ-9 arms Pakistani F-22P frigates. Doesn't look like the latest VT-1 missiles either.

French didnt gave Chinese any technology for Crotale they simply reverse engineered it like the did for Dauphin helicopter

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 25 May 2015 22:44

No Austin, those days Chinese technology was extremely poor, with MiG-21 clone J-7 & twin engine J-8 fighters. US & Europe wanted to bolster them against USSR. The British have GEC Marconi radars for J-7 and RR Spey engines for JH-7. Germany gave MTU engines. Two of their destroyers are also equipped with GE LM-2500 gas turbines.

The French were paid money for ToT of Dauphin & Super Frelon helicopters, Crotale missiles, Thomson CSF radars during late 80's.

USA also sold Blackhawk helicopters but China could not reverse engineer them because of lack of ToT unlike the French.

Funny when US speaks of Asia Pacific pivot, because it helped arm China, just like it helped Afghan freedom fighters.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 May 2015 22:55

tsarkar wrote:No Austin, those days Chinese technology was extremely poor, with MiG-21 clone J-7 & twin engine J-8 fighters. US & Europe wanted to bolster them against USSR. The British have GEC Marconi radars for J-7 and RR Spey engines for JH-7. Germany gave MTU engines. Two of their destroyers are also equipped with GE LM-2500 gas turbines.

The French were paid money for ToT of Dauphin & Super Frelon helicopters, Crotale missiles, Thomson CSF radars during late 80's.

USA also sold Blackhawk helicopters but China could not reverse engineer them because of lack of ToT unlike the French.

Funny when US speaks of Asia Pacific pivot, because it helped arm China, just like it helped Afghan freedom fighters.

+100. All this reverse engineering stuff is overblown. They got a huge leg up from TOT across the board from France, US etc and later Russia.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 04:32

France also passed on ship based ciws gun and Thales ship control system

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2015 05:40

Cross post

jrjrao wrote:Hain jee, please note that the Pakis are number ONE in one more competition onlee:

Pakistan’s elite SSG troops top list of world’s most formidable special units: Report
....
Called the ‘Black Storks’, due to the unique headgear worn, soldiers in the unit have to complete a 36-mile march in just 12 hours and a five-mile run in 20 minutes in full gear.
Take that, you kaafirs. Them SSG Paki dudes can do human impossible things onlee:

a 4 minute mile,

in full SSG gear,

and for not 1, not 2, not 3, but for full 5 miles

At some time after Vietnam and the Grenada invasion, but before Bosnia western war doctrine changed from the old "massed troops and tanks supported by air power" to a smaller more mobile version of war using mainly very highly trained and motivated special ops forces, keeping them mobile with helos and well protected vehicles supported by intense airpower armed with PGMs that could hit targets at standoff distances.

Pakistan has now moved on to exactly this mode of warfare - except that the training is imparted to jihadis and nonstate actors as well as SSG and they are equipped with NVG, secure comm and nav-aids.

If you look back into history - the 1965 war was more of the world war 2 and Korean war type war. 1971 was different in so many ways - it was "pioneering" but it remained largely conventional.

The Kargil war was asymmetric war with trained men occupying the heights.

A future war between India and Pakistan will reveal Pakistanis using the same tactics that we saw the US using in Iraq and Afghanistan. Initial SEAD attacks with air power followed by special forces actions to take out important Indian targets like army bases, air bases radio stations radars etc.

In the meantime the west is moving ahead to UCAVs. That will be Pakistan's next step forward. I assume that India is planning similar things or countermeasures for that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2015 05:59

A recent interview of the PAF chief in AFM is revealing in so many ways, especially when taken along with other information we have.

Reading between the lines he admits that integrating JF 17s has not been easy but the PAF has accepted them "They are our destiny"

“The JF-17 keeps us very busy, but it is our
destiny,” Air Chief Marshal Sohail told me at his Air
Headquarters office overlooking the Margalla Hills

But apart from that the PAF speaks of the DB110 pods they have fitted even to C-130s that allow identification of targets 100 km away. Pakis have also got Safire (Litening equivalent) targeting pods along with literally thousands of GBU 10 and 12 bombs and 1500 Paveway kits. The PAF is getting plenty of experience using these weapons in their operation Zubzub-e-assphuck,

Note also the tactics used by jihadis trained in SSG tactics in the way they attacked a Paki naval base, a Paki air base and recent attacks on Indian army camps. Tomorrow SSG men dfressed as jihadis (so what's new) could attack and India army, navy or air force aseet simply as a demonstration of capability fopr which India may not be able to go to war.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 06:27

it is very difficult to imagine that happening on a large enough scale to trouble india. there are far too many assets and SF units traditionally have great difficulty against well prepared guard details...the tfta IDF kamandus have also occasionally got hammered when discovered by hezbollah/hamas units. they could be able to sneak in small units of 3-4 suicide bomber people not the platoons needed to attack well protected sites. ISIS also used it in ramadi, sending suicide bombers in cars and trucks fitted with extra steel plates to attack govt posts and following through with line infantry. so a suicide squad could breach the gate say at a IAF base and release 6 SSG in a couple of jeeps to try and damage a/c and atc.

in 1965 they did try something sketchy with the SSG. I believe villagers with shotguns and dogs cornered them and forced most of them to surrender.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 May 2015 06:49

Singha wrote:it is very difficult to imagine that happening on a large enough scale to trouble india. there are far too many assets and SF units traditionally have great difficulty against well prepared guard details...the tfta IDF kamandus have also occasionally got hammered when discovered by hezbollah/hamas units. they could be able to sneak in small units of 3-4 suicide bomber people not the platoons needed to attack well protected sites. ISIS also used it in ramadi, sending suicide bombers in cars and trucks fitted with extra steel plates to attack govt posts and following through with line infantry. so a suicide squad could breach the gate say at a IAF base and release 6 SSG in a couple of jeeps to try and damage a/c and atc.

in 1965 they did try something sketchy with the SSG. I believe villagers with shotguns and dogs cornered them and forced most of them to surrender.

No disagreement at all with what you have said, but Pakistan provokes India simply because they want to be seen to be provoking and bask in the knowledge that India can do little to stop those provocations. As India grows and becomes stronger, Pakistan too has become stronger and has retained its ability to provoke without serious risk of major Indian retaliation. I have seen this happening after 65 and 71 and now after 99 and 2001.

India will have to outgrow Pakistan by a great deal more to ensure that the aid they get from the US or China ceases to matter.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 May 2015 08:52

tsarkar wrote:No Austin, those days Chinese technology was extremely poor, with MiG-21 clone J-7 & twin engine J-8 fighters. US & Europe wanted to bolster them against USSR. The British have GEC Marconi radars for J-7 and RR Spey engines for JH-7. Germany gave MTU engines. Two of their destroyers are also equipped with GE LM-2500 gas turbines.

The French were paid money for ToT of Dauphin & Super Frelon helicopters, Crotale missiles, Thomson CSF radars during late 80's.

USA also sold Blackhawk helicopters but China could not reverse engineer them because of lack of ToT unlike the French.

Funny when US speaks of Asia Pacific pivot, because it helped arm China, just like it helped Afghan freedom fighters.

Thats not true , Post 1988 Tinamen Issue the West Stopped Supplying Arms and technology to China.

So French supplying Technology to China to build the Crotale or Dauphane is not correct had that been the case the French would have got lic production cost and such deal would been known.

Even Iran if you seen some of the information I posted in International Military Discussion has reverse engineered the Fench Crotale , US Hawk , Russian SA-2 , F-5 etc and Iran is under the most strict sanction any one can imagine.

China though lately received civil version of Black Hawk S-70 and they even reverse engineered it and made it Z-20.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 09:19

china purchased 2 crotale systems and 88 missiles in 1989.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 May 2015 10:50

Singha wrote:china purchased 2 crotale systems and 88 missiles in 1989.

Yes but they never got any technogy transfer or lic production for it

But if you check wiki chacha this is what it says for HQ-7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HQ-7

In the late 1970s, China joined the Western powers in an informal alliance against the Soviet Union. At the time, China's military equipment was seriously lagging behind the Soviets in quality, and Beijing sought Western assistance to modernize its military. Countries such as the United States, UK, Israel, Italy, France, Germany and Australia responded by providing China with military sales and technological know-how transference, either openly or covertly.

China imported some land and sea versions of the Thomson-CSF Crotale missile in 1978-1979 for evaluation.

nstructed the 2nd Aerospace Academy (now the China Academy of Defense Technology) to reverse-engineer the Crotale, the 23rd Institute to reverse-engineer the radar and fire control system, and the 206th Institute to develop ground-based vehicle carriers for the SAM.

I think with Chinese system able to reverse engineer Western Product be it SAM or Chopper its really hard to say even post tinamen if the Western system was reverse engineered or they simply passed on all the design document/know covertly for money/business or strategic reason

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 May 2015 14:36

There is what is written in public and what happens below the table.

It would be extraordinarily unrealistic to believe that countries like France etc would follow the US script to the T and jeopardize their relations with China overnight.

Israel was stated to have reverse engineered the Mirages and made the KFir. Recent reports note that France basically made much of the plane and sent it across with TOT and kits to Israel to assemble.

China was stated to have had its AWACS deal with Israel cancelled. In reality, the Chinese designer gave an interview stating they had TOT from Israel and learnt how to make the overall AESA and what not from them.

In short, its very likely that most of these so called reverse engineered items were tacit TOT agreements. Even the Russian Su-27SK transfer probably involved TOT which the Russians are not too keen to acknowledge.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2015 16:15

it was also revealed unexpectedly that the WZ10 was a entirely Kamov design.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 May 2015 16:34

And who can forget the J-10 err Lavi?

With 100% TOT and all up yehudi assistance, the Chinese took equivalent time as our LCA to make this bird, but go around posturing nonetheless.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 May 2015 16:40

Also, with collapse of FSU, China imported hundreds - some say thousands of Soviet designers. Also, they pretty much bought out Ukrainian industry lock stock and barrel for Su support. All that would explain the remarkable "similarity" between their designs and the Russian S-3XXX ones even where the Russians wised up and stopped giving TOT. The Chinese are savvy and want to be a world power. They follow the blank check approach. Get basic design and TOT from Russia. For rest, depend on network of ex FSU/East European designers to provide local versions of remaining assemblies which their CATIC/AVIC etc mass produce. And then get a mostly indigenous local Flanker which doesn't meet original TOT agreements but Russia etc keep quiet because they are looking to the next deal. Their achilles heal remains engines.