Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2015 19:15

It really does not matter what the ground realities are. India needs to protest for a number of reasons. The question is in what form does India protest. There has to be a cost for others.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Aug 2015 19:20

Prithwiraj wrote:Attack helos will have very limited offensive value in a traditional war between India and Pakistan-- air will be saturated with manpads launched missile--- May be once a substantial control over the existing ground based radars and infrastructure is wrestled...they can come in to take out one of vehicles or position --- this is not an insurgency scenario we are taking about like Irag and Afghanistan

Incorrect ... and I will leave at that.

A clue, think what the Special Forces and advance strike teams will be doing in war. There is much more but read Vivek Ahuja's scenarios for some ideas.

Folks, roles and utilisation wise - imagination is the limit for any platform or capability.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Aug 2015 20:24

deejay wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:Attack helos will have very limited offensive value in a traditional war between India and Pakistan-- air will be saturated with manpads launched missile--- May be once a substantial control over the existing ground based radars and infrastructure is wrestled...they can come in to take out one of vehicles or position --- this is not an insurgency scenario we are taking about like Irag and Afghanistan
Incorrect ... and I will leave at that.

A clue, think what the Special Forces and advance strike teams will be doing in war. There is much more but read Vivek Ahuja's scenarios for some ideas.

Folks, roles and utilisation wise - imagination is the limit for any platform or capability.

You said it and the last line is exactly why the IAF excels!! From using Mig-21s as picket AEW&C to using Antonov as bombers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Aug 2015 20:30

gameplan is sell india tier1-- stuff at top dollar
give for free/dirt cheap lots of tier2++ stuff to TSP

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Aug 2015 23:03

Pakistan stockpiling nuclear arms due to fears over India: U.S. report

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – A new report by two American think tanks asserts that Pakistan may be building 20 nuclear warheads annually and could have the world’s third-largest nuclear stockpile within a decade.

The report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the Stimson Center concludes that Pakistan is rapidly expanding its nuclear capabilities because of fear of its arch-rival, India, also a nuclear power. The report, released Thursday, says Pakistan is far outpacing India in the development of nuclear warheads.

Analysts estimate that Pakistan has about 120 nuclear warheads, while India has about 100.

In the coming years, the report states, Pakistan’s advantage could grow dramatically because it has a large stockpile of highly enriched uranium that could be used to quickly produce low-yield nuclear devices.

India has far larger stockpiles of plutonium, which is needed to produce high-yield warheads, than Pakistan does. But the report says India appears to be using most of its plutonium to produce domestic energy.

Pakistan could have at least 350 nuclear weapons within five to 10 years, the report concludes. Pakistan would then possess more nuclear weapons than any country except the United States and Russia, which each have thousands of the bombs.

“The growth path of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, enabled by existing infrastructure, goes well beyond the assurances of credible minimal deterrence provided by Pakistani officials and analysts after testing nuclear devices,” the report states.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Aug 2015 12:22

Pakistan-Russia Mi-35 contract likely to expand - DT

The contract on the delivery of four Russian Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan could be expanded, Sputnik International reported. Russian Foreign Ministry’s Second Asia Department Director Zamir Kabulov said it all depends on money. Pakistan has stated that it has the financial means to afford 10-12 helicopters of this type, but negotiations are still going on, he added.

Sputnik International, quoting Zamir Kabulov, said Moscow and Islamabad are discussing possible supplies of Russian defensive weapons to Pakistan.

“Pakistan has an interest in other Russian weapon systems as well. Negotiations are underway and we are talking about the defensive systems,” Kabulov said. In March, President Mamnoon Hussain announced Islamabad’s intention to expand military-technical commerce with Russia with the purchase of Mi-35 gunships.

In August, a transport contract for four Mi-35M and attack helicopters was signed by Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport and Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence, according to a spokesperson of the Russian Embassy in Islamabad.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Aug 2015 14:33

Does this clear our way to buy apache

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 31 Aug 2015 15:32

Maybe in September:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 84648.aspx

India seeks time extension on $3.1bn US copter deal
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi| Updated: Aug 26, 2015 23:49 IST
5 11Share2
India has asked the United States for another month’s extension of the agreed price window in a $3.1-billion deal to buy 22 attack and 15 heavy-lift helicopters.

India’s move comes after a US warning on revision of costs after the 12th extension expires on August 31. The much-needed acquisition has been hanging since September 2013, with files shuttling between the defence and finance ministries.

India seeks to purchase 22 Apache helicopters with option of purchasing 11 more for about $2 billion; the Chinook deal is for 15 helicopters with the option of buying six more for $1.1 billion.

US Ambassador to India Richard Verma and Major General James McDonald of the US Army Security Assistance Command separately wrote to the defence ministry this month, making it clear that it would not be possible to give yet another price extension beyond the stipulated date.

Last Friday, however, Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh, Assistant Chief of Air Staff wrote to General McDonald requesting 30 more days of time, and saying that the entire acquisition process was on the verge of being finalised. The US, and Boeing, the manufacturer of both helicopter types, were earlier told that the process would be completed by December 2014.

While the US response is still awaited, defence minister Manohar Parrikar is goading his bureaucracy to move the acquisition to Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) next week.

“In case the US decides to revise the price after August 31, 2015, then the entire acquisition will have to be renegotiated. The Army decision to acquire M 777 light howitzers and air force decision to acquire additional C-17 heavy lift aircraft, both from US, went into limbo as the defence ministry could not take a final decision in time and the manufacturers were forced to revise the prices,” said a South Block official.

The IAF has three 1980s vintage Mi-26 heavy-lift copters and Mi-17 attack helicopters of similar vintage.

Despite the fact that India urgently requires Apache attack helicopters armed with Hellfire missiles as well as the twin-rotor Chinook for rapid troop deployment, the acquisition process has dragged on for six years. The bids for Apache and Chinook were submitted in 2009 and were opened by the previous UPA regime in 2012.

While Apache was the only one that met the specifications in the attack helicopter category, Chinook was selected as the lowest in terms of life cycle cost and initial price. The final contracts were negotiated in September 2013 and renegotiated again in November 2014 due to death of a defence ministry official in October 2013. The Defence Acquisition Council cleared the acquisition in August 2014.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Aug 2015 19:18

Wow 3 billion for 22 Apache !!! Is rafale cheaper?

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 31 Aug 2015 19:26

Austin wrote:Pakistan stockpiling nuclear arms due to fears over India: U.S. report
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – A new report by two American think tanks asserts that Pakistan may be building 20 nuclear warheads annually and could have the world’s third-largest nuclear stockpile within a decade.

The report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the Stimson Center concludes that Pakistan is rapidly expanding its nuclear capabilities because of fear of its arch-rival, India, also a nuclear power. The report, released Thursday, says Pakistan is far outpacing India in the development of nuclear warheads.

Analysts estimate that Pakistan has about 120 nuclear warheads, while India has about 100.

In the coming years, the report states, Pakistan’s advantage could grow dramatically because it has a large stockpile of highly enriched uranium that could be used to quickly produce low-yield nuclear devices.

India has far larger stockpiles of plutonium, which is needed to produce high-yield warheads, than Pakistan does. But the report says India appears to be using most of its plutonium to produce domestic energy.

Pakistan could have at least 350 nuclear weapons within five to 10 years, the report concludes. Pakistan would then possess more nuclear weapons than any country except the United States and Russia, which each have thousands of the bombs.

“The growth path of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, enabled by existing infrastructure, goes well beyond the assurances of credible minimal deterrence provided by Pakistani officials and analysts after testing nuclear devices,” the report states.

350 nuclear warheads ? Maybe they want to sell it to their Jihadis friends.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 31 Aug 2015 22:12

fanne wrote:Wow 3 billion for 22 Apache !!! Is rafale cheaper?

Its 33 (22+11 optional) for $2+$1 billions. For Rafale we will paying ~6 billion for 36 aircraft. Its not even close.

India must be busy manufacturing glass houses for these Golden Geese.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Sep 2015 01:47

fanne wrote:Wow 3 billion for 22 Apache !!! Is rafale cheaper?

This story said $3.1bn for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook.

A lot of previous stories said $2.5bn for both orders.

This story from 2012 says $1bn for the 15 Chinooks and $1.4bn for the 22 Apaches. Which kind of puts them in the Su-30 MKI league for capital cost.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 2696344124

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Sep 2015 10:44

Indira Gandhi considered military strike on Pakistan's nuclear sites: CIA document

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 01 Sep 2015 11:02

^^ yeah. i had read this in a book named Domel Te Kargil([from] Domel to Kargil). Dont remember author name right now. 2 squadrons of jaguar were reportedly practicing for the strike. Israel was also with us and they were also ready to strike. however pakistan threatened us to destroy our nuclear plan at turbhe, mumbai which would have resulted into total destruction of mumbai. so the plan was dropped.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 01 Sep 2015 20:59

Heavy losses will be inflicted on India if war imposed on Pakistan: Asif

Pakistanians, if you reading this, theres a famous Mumbai saying, which applies to yall and your "Defence minister" - Gaand me nahi goo aur hagne chale juhu.

Kindly note.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Sep 2015 21:30

nirav wrote: your "Defence minister" - Gaand me nahi goo aur hagne chale juhu.

Kindly note.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Sep 2015 19:30

JANES:DoD awards Pakistan AH-1Z contract

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Bell Helicopter a USD581 million contract that includes the delivery of AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters to Pakistan.

The contract, which was announced by the DoD on 26 August but awarded the day before, covers the manufacture and delivery of 15 Lot 12 UH-1Y Venom utility helicopters, 19 Lot 12 AH-1Zs, one Lot 13 UH-1Y, and 21 auxiliary fuel kits for the US Marine Corps (USMC) and government of Pakistan.

Pakistan requested the sale of 15 AH-1Z helicopters in April, and this announcement is the first official confirmation that a deal has been signed. While the notification does not say how many of the 15 helicopters have been signed for at this stage, it states that 10% (USD57.9 million) of the overall contract value covers the sale to the government of Pakistan. This suggests that this is an initial deal for the first two helicopters only, with contracts for the remaining 13 (plus spares and support) to follow.

According to the DoD, these initial helicopters will be delivered by the end of August 2018. The original US Defense Security Co-operation Agency notification of Pakistan's request included 1,000 AGM-114 Hellfire II air-to-surface missiles for "a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high altitudes. By acquiring this [AH-1Z and Hellfire II] capability, Pakistan will enhance its ability to conduct operations in North Waziristan Agency [NWA], the Federally Administered Tribal Areas [FATAs], and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day and night environments".

The contract notification is the latest development in Pakistan's ongoing efforts to bolster its rotary-winged attack capabilities. As well as procuring the 15 AH-1Zs to bolster and eventually replace its existing 32 AH-1F Cobra platforms, Pakistan has also evaluated the Chinese CHAIG WZ-10 attack helicopters, which has included flying them operationally on counter-terrorism missions, and is rumoured to be interested in the Russian-built Mil Mi-28NE 'Havoc' as well. On 19 August it was announced that Pakistan and Russia had signed a formal agreement for the procurement of four Mi-35 'Hind' attack helicopters, with more likely to follow.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 02 Sep 2015 19:48

^What does all of this say about chinese products? That they rather have american stuff is a given, but to be willing to PAY for old russian stuff? Must be mighty crappy, these chinese doodads.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Sep 2015 20:25

^It actually reflects how corrupt and unaccountable their military is.

They are buying Russian gear, getting free stuff from America and will ultimately buy from all-weather Chinese friends too. They did the same with their AWAC fleet. Bought uber expensive Erieyes (on loan) then bought a completely different and incompatible platform from China.

This was before talibunnies halaled their Eye, before they even started paying monthly installments on loan

Same for their fighter fleet, they claim JF-17 Bunder to be F-22 killer whereas already dreaming about suckling on Su-35 or J-11 exhausts. They also continuously dream about J-10B, despite Chinese attempt to assure them "17" is greater then "10".

In reality its a nightmare for IAF, because they don't know what will come next.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 06 Sep 2015 18:47

PNS Khalid

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2015 18:58

Austin wrote:Indira Gandhi considered military strike on Pakistan's nuclear sites: CIA document

that option needs to be rebooted pronto.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Sep 2015 21:54

Rahul M wrote:
Austin wrote:Indira Gandhi considered military strike on Pakistan's nuclear sites: CIA document
that option needs to be rebooted pronto.

We have agreement now not to attack each other Nuclear Site , Sort off CBM

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2015 21:59

target the delivery systems and the warheads. if some are co-located with nuclear installations that's just too bad. CBMs with pak are meaningless anyway.

if we continue to let this issue fester it's only a matter of time before they use one on Indian soil, possibly a JDAM. de-fanging pak's nukes should be a national priority.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Sep 2015 08:55

Rahul M wrote:target the delivery systems and the warheads. if some are co-located with nuclear installations that's just too bad. CBMs with pak are meaningless anyway.

if we continue to let this issue fester it's only a matter of time before they use one on Indian soil, possibly a JDAM. de-fanging pak's nukes should be a national priority.

Who knows where it is located and per-emptive hitting reactor would be breaking our own agreement.

Any attack would an act of war and what follows would be worse , Even if IG had attacked Pakistan then that would have started a war whose consequences are not know.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Sep 2015 09:08

Attacking all nuclear sites is something that the USA wanted to do against the USSR and gave up. After that no one has even tried it. Not even against NoKo. Israel hit Iraq when they were vulnerable - timing is everything. Pakis ain't so stupid as to keep their nukes vulnerable when they have been expecting an attack for 30 years. Paki nukes are now safely dispersed in underground tunnels and it is better to simply nuke Pakistan in a war than to try and get those underground nukes, fail, then have a war and then nuke Pakistan secondarily

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Sep 2015 10:18

shiv wrote:Attacking all nuclear sites is something that the USA wanted to do against the USSR and gave up. After that no one has even tried it. Not even against NoKo. Israel hit Iraq when they were vulnerable - timing is everything. Pakis ain't so stupid as to keep their nukes vulnerable when they have been expecting an attack for 30 years. Paki nukes are now safely dispersed in underground tunnels and it is better to simply nuke Pakistan in a war than to try and get those underground nukes, fail, then have a war and then nuke Pakistan secondarily

Unless Pakis attack us with Nuke first , We dont want to go the nuke route , consequence would be very disastrous for our population and post global reaction would be worst , I mean any war even conventional ones against Pakistan armed with BM and CM would be nothing short of disaster for economy and people.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 07 Sep 2015 10:25

fanne wrote:Wow 3 billion for 22 Apache !!! Is rafale cheaper?

The 22 Apache deal is worth 1.4 billion and includes costs of infrastructure, service, maintenance and it's weapons package (over a 1000 hellfires, 200+ stingers etc)

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories839.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2015 10:28

TSP was always invulnerable to a n-attack whether on kahuta or chasma because their working 'gold-plated' devices were supplied COTS by China. later on they might have built their own designs and tested a couple post pokhran but thats the B-team inventory, the A-team of atleast 20-30 devices would be chinese made and certified to be used as first line weapons on strategic targets.

think of them as a n-proxy of china.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Sep 2015 12:23

Pakistani Army chief General Raheel Sharif warns India of 'unbearable cost' in case of war

The unbearable cost part is the Nuclear Blackmail

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Sep 2015 13:58

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 96,00.html

burraq drone fires missile and kills 3 tspians.

---
Sharif's threats must be due to Col Rathore saying Dawoodji is always in our thoughts and govt is always planning covert action to bag him.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 07 Sep 2015 14:47

More for COAS statement that Army must be ready for short swift wars.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Sep 2015 06:04

Singha wrote:TSP was always invulnerable to a n-attack whether on kahuta or chasma because their working 'gold-plated' devices were supplied COTS by China. later on they might have built their own designs and tested a couple post pokhran but thats the B-team inventory, the A-team of atleast 20-30 devices would be chinese made and certified to be used as first line weapons on strategic targets.

think of them as a n-proxy of china.

Singha ji
Are you suggesting that the Chinese gave them Chinese made complete bums?

They claim that the Cheenis gave them Pure U enough for 2 bums no?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 Sep 2015 06:37

^Snooping their nuclear tests, the conclusion was that the only successful test they have done was with a plutonium device, which they did not make. Their program was for a uranium bomb, which fizzed apparently. The obvious conclusion is that the plutonium device was one given off-the-shelf by the chinese and this continues to be their only credible weapon. Apparently, around 20 were given to them and they have reserved these for their most important targets.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Sep 2015 13:52

The Chinese Gave them a proven design of Nuclear Bum not the Bum itself , The Uranium etc came from Kahuta which itself was some stolen design by Khan Sahab. This happened in early 80's and in a book written by US author I dont remember the name now but read it in 90's the CIA was well aware of the Chinese-Pakistan nexus but due to Afghanistan they choose to look over , once Soviet withdrew the CIA confronted Benezar Bhutto with evidence and she pleaded her innocence , the POTUS decided not to ceritfy that Pakis can no long build a nuclear bum and so came the Pressler Ammednment and Sanctions, The cold testing of Pakistan Bum already happend in mid-80's

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Sep 2015 15:24

the general consensus was kahuta centrifuges never worked properly and was useful as a cover to sell the indigenous bomb theory by china/massa and other fathers. they may or may not have tested in lop nor under chinese test cover and reworked their design thereafter. i read after the indian tests, mushy or some other worthy flew to beijing and returned with a couple devices which were duly exploded and then some domestic weapons were also tested which did not work so well. samar mubarakmand's operation was apparently where the working weapons were made, not xerox khans shop.

arun · Post by **arun** » 08 Sep 2015 16:21

X Posting from the STFUP thread a great quotation with impeccable provenance attributed to no less a personage than the Islamic Republic Of Pakistan's then Military Dictator, Field Marshal Ayub Khan, to show that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan lost the 1965 war.

Anujan wrote:About the 1965 war which Pakis are proudly celebrating victory

https://history.state.gov/historicaldoc ... 68v25/d327

Memorandum From the President's Special Assistant (Rostow) to President Johnson and Secretary of State Rusk Conversation with Pakistan Minister of Finance Shoaib

In great confidence Shoaib said he would tell me of a recent incident in the Pak Cabinet. Ayub said: “I want it understood that never again will we risk 100 million Pakistani for 5 million Kashmiri—never again.”

I said that in equal confidence I would tell him that one of the reasons we were so anxious to end the war between India and Pakistan was we feared a military set-back for the Paks which might destroy the morale of the nation and Ayub. He said: “It was close—very close.”

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 08 Sep 2015 18:38

IA must find a way to hack into the Abduls' drones and use it on the uniformed jihadis themselves.

Software isnt one of Packee strengths .. Im pretty sure if there is password protection, more often than not, pwd would be-AoA.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Sep 2015 22:12

nirav wrote:
Software isnt one of Packee strengths .. Im pretty sure if there is password protection, more often than not, pwd would be-AoA.

SKrishna · Post by **SKrishna** » 08 Sep 2015 22:20

^^
Really I thought they are good at this malware kind of stuff.. Does the very first Computer virus C-Brain ring a bell?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Sep 2015 23:45

Having a bunch of jerks writing malware does not translate into technical capability across the board though. Where are the Pak companies writing programs for sensor fusion, electronic systems and so forth.