Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by vivek_ahuja »

tsarkar wrote:Wonder how will the Il-78s be used once Mirages retire.
FC-20s that the PAF is buying in some quantity should be able to utilize these tankers.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by member_23370 »

They need to train their soldiers not buy useless crap that will not last 2 hrs in a war.

http://dawn.com/2013/01/03/gunmen-kidna ... in-punjab/


ISLAMABAD: Gunmen kidnapped seven soldiers from a bus in Pakistan on Wednesday, military officials said, just days after Taliban forces executed 21 pro-government paramilitaries they had seized.


There has been no official confirmation of FC-20 (J-10) but I suspect since US will not sell them more F-16's they will try out a few J-10's.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Bheeshma wrote:It was a H&D purchase pure and simple. It is easily nullified by R-33/37 or KS-172 missiles which would keep IL-78/Eyerie etc near baluchistan/waziristan region.

Google aunty throws this up
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/ide ... istan.html
We don't operate any of these missiles. Kh-31 could be an option however though unproven in a2a role.

We should not be outright dismissive of a capability that an adversary acquires just because we have more fancy hardware.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by SSridhar »

India evaluating Pakistan Army's revised military doctrine
India is still evaluating reports about the Pakistan army’s revised military doctrine that lists militant groups and internal dangers as the biggest threat to the country’s security rather than India.

“It is fundamentally a Pakistani assessment, which is not for us to comment upon. Many analysts from around the world have been saying this in public. If Pakistan arrived at this conclusion on its own, then it’s interesting,” said sources.

With the Kashmir dispute in the backdrop and memories of Bangladesh having been carved out of Pakistan with the help of Indian armed forces, the Pakistan army has historically seen the prime danger to national security as coming from India. Though a chapter on ‘Sub-Conventional Warfare’ has been added to the Army Doctrine to focus on terrorists, who not only attack at will but also try to set the agenda for Pakistan, Inter Services Public Relations spokesman maintained that this did not mean the conventional threat had receded.
The bolded portion above is the operative part. TSP will *never* change its position vis-a-vis India.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Anujan »

Every once in a while pakis do some window dressing to keep their american bosses happy. Like catching Al keeda no 3 just before a foreign visit.

This is for the occasion of Kerry's swearing in perhaps.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Baikul »

SSridhar wrote:India evaluating Pakistan Army's revised military doctrine
India is still evaluating reports about the Pakistan army’s revised military doctrine that lists militant groups and internal dangers as the biggest threat to the country’s security rather than India.

It is fundamentally a Pakistani assessment, which is not for us to comment upon. Many analysts from around the world have been saying this in public. If Pakistan arrived at this conclusion on its own, then it’s interesting,” said sources...................
This likely not on topic. I saw the bolded part in the Hindu article and wondered - what Indian source does this journalist have who would say "it's not for us to comment on", thereby implying that it is not India's business?

Any Indian army officer, IMHO, would regard this alleged Pakistani assessment as definitely their business!

Possibly the source is someone from the MEA, or a politician?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by SSridhar »

Baikul, I would say games are being played by everyone involved.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by arun »

A video of the Pakistan Navy’s FAC Azmat on its delivery run dating back to mid-2012.

Even tied up alongside the FAC was bobbing around so much that it left me feeling faintly queasy!

Does one infer from all this bobbing around even when tied up alongside that the vessel has poor sea keeping qualities?

Clicky
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by tushar_m »

pns Azmat have no SAM missile cover , also its moving so much in the relatively still water because of light weight 550-600 tons.

compare it to our Abhay (Pauk II) & veer class missile boats which are in same class

both our ships have not only some limited SAM's but the 76mm gun (compared to 23mm on azmat)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veer_class_corvette

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhay_class_corvette (anti submarine warfare)

don't know that kind of use will it be against Indian Navy. Even Pirates equipped with Rpg's & any other heavy weapons will give it a fight.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Hi tushar, abhay class is a asw corvette. Azmat can be compared to veer , khukri and Kora classes of the Indian navy. Iirc these boats have only man pad cover apart from cows and main cannon.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by member_23370 »

Veer class carries a real 76 mm gun, 2 30 mm CIWS weapons and 4-16 missiles. Khukri and Kora are more like Light Frigates. Azmat is a low quality, cheap gun boat (with 30 mm gun instead of 76 mm main gun) slung with some chinese crappy SSM.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Anujan »

Ran the clone detection tool:
Image
Image

The green areas are the areas where stuff has been lifted from and the red areas are where they have been pasted to.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by tushar_m »

Aditya G wrote:Hi tushar, abhay class is a asw corvette. Azmat can be compared to veer , khukri and Kora classes of the Indian navy. Iirc these boats have only man pad cover apart from cows and main cannon.
aditya thats why i added anti submarine at the end of abhay..........

i want to compare the same tonnage ships in both navy , while abhay , veer & azmat are of same class khurki & kora are heavy ships 1,500 tonnes & 1,350 tonnes.

also some SAM cover is better than no SAM cover...........it is difficult for PN to counter veer class with c802 as it would be costly, a Simple SAM could provide limited cover against mirage 3 in PN/PAF inventory..

also veer have 2 ak630 while azmat have one..

the main cannon of azmat is 23mm while we have 76mm so that would be a good punch...........
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Yep ... azmat is not as heavily armed as our boats
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by rajanb »

X posted from AF-PAK Thread
Now a interesting question pops to mind.

If the USians do a "Saigon Departure" from Afghanistan, what will the future scenarion of US and Pak relations.

Will not Pak, the wh0re, lose its strategic positioning vis-a vis the USians?

Will they turn to becoming wh0res for the Chinese?

And is the current situation on the LoC, the efforts to internationalise it, the so called "green book" stating that terrorists are the primary enemy and then escalations against us contrary to their recent green book, an alternative to maintain their wh0re status in the international arena?

In case their chinese angle fails?

Interesting times. Worrying times, not because of dhoti shivering, but because our polity has no clue.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by jamwal »

Aditya G wrote:Hi tushar, abhay class is a asw corvette. Azmat can be compared to veer , khukri and Kora classes of the Indian navy. Iirc these boats have only man pad cover apart from cows and main cannon.
:mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Boreas »

Porki sainiks are being slained dozen at a time.. 21 a week ago.. 6 were kidnaped yesterday.. 14 more today!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/world ... .html?_r=0
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by arun »

X Posted from the TSP thread.

Demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan by ununiformed Mohammadden Jihadi's kills two uniformed Mohammadden Jihadi's of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in Mohmand:
saip wrote: ............ Meanwhile life goes on in pissfull Pakistan!

Nation
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Singha »

imo we only need a combo of P8I and flankers / Mig28upg as escort to wipe the entire PN off the map if it puts to sea.
so a case can be made to even shift the 3 talwars to ENC. I suppose karwar offers the natural advantage of a good harbour, but hopefully a similar base will come up in east coast as well, not just a n-sub base @ rambilly.
karwar is 2 days sailing away from anywhere in the east coast around Sri lanka...I believe the gulf of mannar near rameswaram is too shallow and protected coral for heavy men-o-war to pass through?

choice is between a base in AP/TN or in the A&N pearl harbour style. given lack of land in A&N, precious forests etc plus cost of shipments there from mainland, let us have a san diego style big-box base on the mainland and a Guam style fwd base in the southern tip of andaman complete with a IAF-IN airbase as well.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by member_20292 »

^^^ kaise PN ko pocchhaa lagayenge saar?

Brahmastra-os ? Sea hawk? on Mig 29 UPG?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by keshavchandra »

It may be a little out of the topic but any guru here may point out the diplomatic pov of US in pakistan funding? I'am askin asia specific pov for this funding?
thanks.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by nash »

I think we can wipe out Paki navy(surface ships) within few hours, if we want to, just montior them where they are and a dozen of brahmos or harpoon or exocet is enough to fry them.After that P-8I with kilos can go search and destroy their subs.

I would say within couple of days there will be naval blockade on Pakistan, if IN go for all out attack on them.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

Singha wrote:imo we only need a combo of P8I and flankers / Mig28upg as escort to wipe the entire PN off the map if it puts to sea.
so a case can be made to even shift the 3 talwars to ENC.
In 1999, with IN started patrolling just beyond the 12 NM international 'border', the Pakistan Navy was confined to the brown waters. Thus the surface navy was able to physically confine the adversary and hence it was a successful operation. Assuming we are able to accomplish it again, then our P-8/IL-38/Tu-142s cannot have a go at paki ships while they are so close to the shore.

If PN is able to 'break out', then our maritime aircraft will probably be busy looking for the subs in any case.

So imho we should see some classic ship to ship warfare 8)
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Surya »

imo we only need a combo of P8I and flankers / Mig28upg

You watching Top Gun :) :mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Boreas »

keshavchandra wrote:It may be a little out of the topic but any guru here may point out the diplomatic pov of US in pakistan funding? I'am askin asia specific pov for this funding?
thanks.
It is a fees which they pay in return for TSP sending its soilders to die for missions which unkil finds relevant for their security.

There is a certain level of tolerance at both sides.. when things get too insulting for TSP they do things like prohibit use of their air bases, block the supply lines whereas when unkil gets unhappy they hold the cash and military aid. Fact is unkil doesnt mind paying high to get the dirty work done as far as people dying are not amrikis.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Shrinivasan »

Aditya G wrote:In 1999, with IN started patrolling just beyond the 12 NM international 'border', the Pakistan Navy was confined to the brown waters. Thus the surface navy was able to physically confine the adversary and hence it was a successful operation. Assuming we are able to accomplish it again...
Aditya, PN of today is not the same as PN of 1999... they are no more constrained to Karachi harbor alone... also their Agostas as well as missile boats have emboldened them... refurbished P3s (minus TeleBunnies dhaya) also give them good recon capabilities...

But a Scenario in which the Onions are fried prior to launch of any action by IN would cripple them big time...
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by K Mehta »

can anyone identify the plane at 24°50'28.81"N 66°43'40.01"E in google earth, 24.841364,66.727741 in gmaps. looks to me to be an orion or atlantique!
It is close to the base i posted previously viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6389&p=1307631#p1307631 at 24.838932, 66.729702, which has undergone a lot of work!
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Samay »

Boreas wrote:Porki sainiks are being slained dozen at a time.. 21 a week ago.. 6 were kidnaped yesterday.. 14 more today!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/world ... .html?_r=0
One group of jihadis is fighting another, the difference is only in their numbers. Who is the sainik here?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Shrinivasan »

Who is a Jihadi, who is a fauji??? who is a good taliban? who is the bad taliban... the lines are blurred.. improving progressively...eventually there will be one big catfight....
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Shrinivasan »

Boreas wrote:Porki sainiks are being slained dozen at a time.. 21 a week ago.. 6 were kidnaped yesterday.. 14 more today!
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/14/world ... .html?_r=0
Nice to see no mention of Porkistan as being in the forefront of the GWOT... but the Khan WKKs did their Rhona Dhona about drone attacks!!!
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by K Mehta »

from daillytimes.pk Interior pic of PAF AEWC
Image
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ is that a saffron bandit in the foreground?
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Anujan »

Going by their losses on the ground, they should be practicing operation pious green intruder.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by sum »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ is that a saffron bandit in the foreground?
Cant be since the saffron bandit seems to be TFTA.

The correct name forthe operation should have been "SDRE Saffron Bandits" to avoid such confusions.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Anujan »

I also recommend "exercise rearguard gubo" to defend against US special forces suddenly landing in Pakistan.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya_V »

K Mehta wrote:from daillytimes.pk Interior pic of PAF AEWC
Image
couple of questions, why are all the monitors off and the guys standing behind is really cramped, that can't be photo taken during a serious exercise but just for media purpose when the plane was on the ground.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by jamwal »

I don't think that they are off. Probable just the angle at which the photograph was taken.
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by K Mehta »

surely a photo op.
look at the 2nd and 3rd guys from bottom, they are just opening the keyboards! :D
it would not be easy to take a photo in a moving aircraft and they would not like to disclose it to a civvie photographer the capabilities I guess!
PS only two pious guys with beards, two mush and remaining clean shaven!
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by Aditya G »

K Mehta wrote:from daillytimes.pk Interior pic of PAF AEWC
Image
Post the last Jehadi attack on their base the aircraft exterior is not much to look at :mrgreen:
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Re: Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Post by svinayak »

Aditya G wrote:
K Mehta wrote:from daillytimes.pk Interior pic of PAF AEWC
Post the last Jehadi attack on their base the aircraft exterior is not much to look at :mrgreen:
For a country the size of Pakistan the AWACS are a luxury and over kill.
THey dont have the depth to really use it
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