Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[arun]

X Posted from the STFUP thread.

#RAWattacksAfghanParliament: How Pakistan Twitter blamed the Taliban attack on India :

How brazen can brazen be? Consider the voices emanating from Pakistan over Monday’s terror attack on the Afghan parliament and this question will ring out loudly.

Many Pakistanis seriously believe that India’s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) choreographed the terror attack on Afghan parliament. #RAWattacksAfghanParliament has been the top trending subject on Pakistan Twitter since news of attack on Afghan parliament broke out. ................

Needless to say, such campaigns on social media are an integral feature of the psyops of Pakistani intelligence and security establishments. Consider some of the tweets soaked in malicious Pakistani propaganda. .......................

The twitter link follows:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/RAWA ... t?src=hash

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s claims of the involvement of India in the attack on Afghanistan’s Parliament has been trashed by the Afghan’s pointing out a connection to where else but the Land of the Pure and the Home of the Mohammadden Terrorist.

Afghan intelligence services spokesman Hassib Sediqqi said the Uniformed Jihadi’s of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan via its notoriously Mohammadden Terrorist fomenting intelligence arm the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate aka ISID aka ISI helped the Un-uniformed Mohammadden Terrorists of the Haqqani network carry out the attack outside parliament, which killed two people and wounded more than 30 as lawmakers were meeting inside. Afghan intelligence services spokesman Hassib Sediqqi identified the ISID/ISI officer as Bilal, without providing his full name:

Pakistan officer was involved in parliament attack, Afghanistan authorities say

[tsarkar]

So I spent some time in analyzing performance of crème-de-la-crème PAF fighter pilots. Specifically, the ones who flew F-104A Starfighter

Performance Vs Indian Fighters in Air to Air combat

On 3rd or 4th September 1965, a Gnat was claimed as shot down, and IAF accepted the loss, but Indian confirmation is not available that the shooter was a Starfighter.

On 7th September 1965 over Sargodha, A B Devayya was able to either shoot down or make a maneuver kill of Amjad Hussain

On 13th December 1971, Mervyn Middlecoat was shot down by B B Soni

On 14th November 1971, Samad Changezi was shot down by Aruna Kumar Datta. This is probably India’s first & only missile kill of another fighter.

Net Score in fighter combat – India 3 Starfighters Pakistan 1 Mystere +1 Gnat probable

On 21 September 1965, a Canberra was shot down by a Starfighter. On 10th December 1971, a Starfighter also shot down an Indian Navy Alize hunting PNS Hangor.

However, both these aircraft were not fighters, and were sitting ducks.

Air to Ground performance

On 5th December, one Starfighter was lost attacking Amritsar

On 11 December 1971, a Starfighter strafed & destroyed a Maurt at Uttarlai

So net net it all depends on the attitude of the pilot, his training, his skills & his experience. Pakistani pilots have been shot down, and the unfortunate Amjad twice (once in each war). And Indian pilots have proven to be equal, if not superior, to their Pakistani counterparts.

[Rahul M]

which were the aircraft used on the Indian side ?

[Anujan]

Ignore the trending twitter hash tags. They are a troll crowd of mediocre intelligence. My second cousins dog's brother's owner tracked a few of them and they seem to be paid shills.

[shiv]

So net net it all depends on the attitude of the pilot, his training, his skills & his experience. Pakistani pilots have been shot down, and the unfortunate Amjad twice (once in each war). And Indian pilots have proven to be equal, if not superior, to their Pakistani counterparts.

The IAF as a force has used its pilots better and our boys have flown more risky attack missions which are the war winning missions rather than air defence. After a point the PAF used to avoid combat or restrict itself to air defence - not willing to risk losing aircraft that are loaded with fuel and bombs in attack missions.

[nirav]

Historically during all our wars with Pak, most of the times PAF ended up on the defensive having to bear the brunt of an attacking IAF .. while they may notch up A2A kills, pretty certain will get their ass whupped on the ground and the air ..

Things might change a bit as they start getting more platforms with range,primarily the F-16s to conduct strike missions deep-er into our territory ..The success of such missions however would be pretty low thanks to better situational awareness cause of the ADGES + SAMs + Sukhois on stand by ..

The bandar, even if it manages to cross the border, that itself would be an achievement Ghanta 1800 nm "range"..
With any worthwhile war fighting ordinance and a full tank of "petrol", all the bandar will be used is for point defence ..

All this noise about depleting squadron strength is just that.noise as far as Pak is concerned. The Sukhoi squadrons + Navys Migs are enough for them flying PAjis.

[Sid]

Brits are cooking something in AfPak region and it aint in our favor.

First they facilitate agreement between afgan and paki intelligence services. Porkies claim that peace talks are getting held in China, between Afgans and (porki) taliban, that was IMHO to make sure zero interference from India or west during negotiations.

Then after all these years, BBC produced a show blaming India for using MQM against porki. Mohd Ghani was always a porki, this was known before the even Karzai was elected.

Now why Brits are siding with Porkies is a bit of mystery. If something is not done soon then all these last 2 decades of hard work will go down the drain.

[Pratyush]

On a personal note, I fail to understand, why an Airforce that is fighting over its home ground and defending against an attack can ever be considered superior.

For a simple reason, if the defense is successful, the attacker will return again the next day. On and on, till they have worn down the defender. Of the defense is so successful that they have inflicted so much damage on the attacking forces that the offensive has tobe called off.

Going by memory, the only defending force that came close to meeting it goal was the German's. That too, before the P 51s became available over the German skies. After that it was all downhill, for them.

When it comes to the PAF, they were never in a position to seriously inter fear with the IAF, and its offensive goals. So how can they ever consider themselves an equal, or better.

[shiv]

For a simple reason, if the defense is successful, the attacker will return again the next day. On and on, till they have worn down the defender. Of the defense is so successful that they have inflicted so much damage on the attacking forces that the offensive has tobe called off.

The defence of Britain - the so called "Battle of Britain" is tom tommed as an example of a defensive victory where absence of German invasion is called victory. If Britain can do it, why not Shitistan?

The absence of an Indian invasion equals victory for Pakistan

[KrishnaK]

For a simple reason, if the defense is successful, the attacker will return again the next day. On and on, till they have worn down the defender. Of the defense is so successful that they have inflicted so much damage on the attacking forces that the offensive has tobe called off.

The defence of Britain - the so called "Battle of Britain" is tom tommed as an example of a defensive victory where absence of German invasion is called victory. If Britain can do it, why not Shitistan?

The absence of an Indian invasion equals victory for Pakistan

For a fair comparison, the aims of the two countries India and Germany in WWII should be the same. Absence of an Indian invasion would equal victory for Pakistan only if the Indian aim was outright conquest. I don't think we've ever had those war aims on the western front.

[Pratyush]

For a simple reason, if the defense is successful, the attacker will return again the next day. On and on, till they have worn down the defender. Of the defense is so successful that they have inflicted so much damage on the attacking forces that the offensive has tobe called off.

The defence of Britain - the so called "Battle of Britain" is tom tommed as an example of a defensive victory where absence of German invasion is called victory. If Britain can do it, why not Shitistan?

The absence of an Indian invasion equals victory for Pakistan

This is OTP to the thread. But did the germans had the real aim of invading British islands. Of was that really a cover to prepare for the invasion of the Soviet union.

[arun]

X Posted from the “Baluchistan: The Story of Another Pakistan Military Genocide” thread.

Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan continues its genocidal campaign against fellow Mohammadden Baluchi’s:

Year-to-date: 83 mutilated corpses found in Balochistan

[eklavya]

The defence of Britain - the so called "Battle of Britain" is tom tommed as an example of a defensive victory where absence of German invasion is called victory. If Britain can do it, why not Shitistan?

The absence of an Indian invasion equals victory for Pakistan

This is OTP to the thread. But did the germans had the real aim of invading British islands. Of was that really a cover to prepare for the invasion of the Soviet union.

From the RAF website:

RAF - The Battle of Britain

Both sides took heavy casualties during the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe lost nearly 1900 aircraft and more than 2,500 aircrew killed. Fighter Command had lost 544 pilots killed, about one in six of those who fought. Bomber and Coastal Commands had also taken heavy losses. Their attacks on German airfields, invasion barges, supply dumps and, later, cities had severely hampered preparations for Operation Sealion.

By 21 September some 214 barges had been sunk or damaged amounting to nearly 10% of the total number gathered for the invasion, although at a punishing cost. On several occasions attacking formations suffered 100% casualties, and between them, Bomber and Coastal Commands would lose nearly 1,000 aircrew.

shiv, as per above source, the Luftwaffe lost 1,900 aircraft and 2,500 aircrew in the Battle of Britain. What can PAF point to that comes even close?

[shiv]

This is OTP to the thread. But did the germans had the real aim of invading British islands. Of was that really a cover to prepare for the invasion of the Soviet union.

What is not OT for this thread is whether or not India has wanted to invade Pakistan. As long as Pakistanis push the story that India has tried to invade Pakistan but has been stopped by the Paki armed forces or nukes - they see their own actions as victory. Pakistanis are taught that Indians want to invade Pakistan but are held at bay by Pakistani heroism and nukes.

Not only does the army claim this, but CFair mentions it in her book; Zaid Hamid and Paki internet heroes keep saying that. There is now a new video from Pakistan that I am now being invited to watch by YouTube which is entitled "Come India - Pakistan is waiting!"

ekalavya - if one wants to delude oneself one does not have to tell the truth.

"Indians hate Pakistan. They want to invade Pakistan. They tried to invade in 1947, 1965, 1971 and in 2001-2. They have failed every time. Indians are a nation of losers." I see the internet full of Indians trying to argue with Pakis and pointing the "historic records" and documents. That is a useless exercise because they do not want to hear anything different. Unless India actually invades and occupies Pakistan, Pakistanis will always say they have won. As CFair points out "Survival is victory".

[TSJones]

^^^^ the same concept also applies to other nations, cultures and ideologies also. the fires of extremism are exceedingly hard to douse.

[Singha]

but the difference is TSP has around 100 million people who truly believe in it and are willing to pickup a sword/gun and go hard at kafirs if they get a chance.

in other extremist ideology states like soviet union, saudia, north korea...there are many who toe the line out of fear or material gain not ideology. when the govt collapses they revert back to normal.

I do not think if TSPA or GoP changes or collapses the 100 mil jihadi warriors will revert back to normal..they will just make a beeline for the border and attempt a Panipath-4

after israel, TSP is the most militarized state in the world....in number of guns per capita and the willingness to fight the kafir even on a hungry stomach.

[tsarkar]

@Singha & Shiv - Indian strategists have long debated the Pak question - ie, how best to deal with Pakistan.

A military defeat of Pakistan is eminently possible. We've well trained troops, and sufficient equipment.

As Admiral Hiranandani notes in IN Official History, and this is as close to the official strategy being confirmed,

http://indiannavy.nic.in/book/naval-ope ... ?page=0,83

Dr KB Lall, who was the Defence Secretary in 1971, recalls:

"After Gen Niazi's surrender on 16 Dec, lengthy discussions were held in New Delhi regarding a unilateral cease fire. There were two schools of thought. One in favour of an immediate unilateral ceasefire. The other in favour of consolidating the gains made before declaring a unilateral ceasefire. I recall a discussion on whether the disintegration of West Pakistan was at all in India's interest. My view was and is that the disintegration of West Pakistan would only serve to bring the turmoil of Central Asia to our doorstep on the Punjab border. It was preferable by far to keep it further away on Pakistan's Western border".

This has been the primary Indian reason for the sustenance of Pakistan. Pakistan is actually India's buffer to ME.

However, as I earlier quoted Gp Capt Chandu Gole's summary of the 1971 War Plans, periodically, Pakistan will need to be defanged, so as to ensure peace prevails for the next 25-30 years.

[Shreeman]

ts,

There is a fallacy inherent in the quoted. The situation did not really materially change after any of the skirmishes. Now in the case of a favorable outcome, the side with the advantageous outcome would choose to alter the situation to reduce the possibility of a future outbreak. But demarcating such that the disadvantage was obvious and as insurmountable as feasible.

This was never the goal. Now why is that?

[eklavya]

This has been the primary Indian reason for the sustenance of Pakistan. Pakistan is actually India's buffer to ME.

However, as I earlier quoted Gp Capt Chandu Gole's summary of the 1971 War Plans, periodically, Pakistan will need to be defanged, so as to ensure peace prevails for the next 25-30 years.

Pakistan can be broken up once and for all: independent Baluchistan, independent Sindh, NWFP absorbed into Afghanistan, POK absorbed into India, West Punjab as Pakistan. Leaving it in one peice just gives resources, access to sea, and access to Central Asia to the West Punjabis. The West Punjabis need to be denied their colonial hinterland. No disrespect to AM Gole (how could I possibly ) but we should not have to periodically defang Pakistan; we need to permanently defang the West Punjabis.

[Karan M]

AoA India's plan found out!

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=267202

Loathsome Indian designs
Abid Latif Sindhu
Friday, June 26, 2015 - It is not only the CPEC that has disturbed the South bloc, but also it is the coming into prominence of Pakistan, internationally, that has perturbed India. The Corridor is actually the culminating superhighway of the new silk route. The Pak Day Parade 2015 was the point which created a panic in the Indian minds and they presumed that beyond this, Pakistan if allowed to proceed, then India will never have a role in the region to play. The visit of Chinese President has furthered their worries which are to be wedged. India was planning the comprehensive paralysis of Pakistan since early 90s. The news was leaked about an actual operation which was conducted as a trial of KALI weapon system, through which 134 Pak soldiers were buried by an artificially created snow blizzard and glacier breakup. This was the demonstration that India has mastered the use of microwave based DEW (direct energy weapons). The other area where Indian DRDO, Bhabha Complex, RAW and other organizations and scientific affiliates have reached is the excellence in the weaponized use of laser technology. This can be used from thousands of miles to pulverize a mountain into mole. The cordial relations between India and Lithuania since 1985 have something to do with it.

This is no small development. A new technological asymmetry is in the making. India has a secret programme to control the Monsoon so that the jet streams of Pakistan are stolen and made to cause rain. Pakistan is left with no option but to take few deep breaths and stockpot the complete situation. The firing raids across LoC and Working Boundary are signaling to create a perception of inviolability of the border from Pakistan to Indian side but fairly assailable from Indian to Pakistani side.

Modi’s recent assertions in Dhaka were not without a purpose. All these admissions, leaks and blatant assertions are made to induce Pakistan’s decision making elite into a response generated through fear. The set pattern is upping the ante on the escalation ladder and buying the Indian war rhetoric. The prudent response could be, isolating India by highlighting these shenanigans on all the world forums. The most important is to adopt the counter measures. The strategic partnership if fostered further will be deemed as the connivance in crimes of the saffron brigade. From a waiver for Neuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to the role as Asia Pacific pivot or a member of BRICS, what India wants to demonstrate to the world?

—Islamabad

[shiv]

AoA India's plan found out!

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=267202

Loathsome Indian designs
Abid Latif Sindhu
Friday, June 26, 2015 - It is not only the CPEC that has disturbed the South bloc, but also it is the coming into prominence of Pakistan, internationally, that has perturbed India. The Corridor is actually the culminating superhighway of the new silk route. The Pak Day Parade 2015 was the point which created a panic in the Indian minds and they presumed that beyond this, Pakistan if allowed to proceed, then India will never have a role in the region to play. The visit of Chinese President has furthered their worries which are to be wedged. India was planning the comprehensive paralysis of Pakistan since early 90s. The news was leaked about an actual operation which was conducted as a trial of KALI weapon system, through which 134 Pak soldiers were buried by an artificially created snow blizzard and glacier breakup. This was the demonstration that India has mastered the use of microwave based DEW (direct energy weapons). The other area where Indian DRDO, Bhabha Complex, RAW and other organizations and scientific affiliates have reached is the excellence in the weaponized use of laser technology. This can be used from thousands of miles to pulverize a mountain into mole. The cordial relations between India and Lithuania since 1985 have something to do with it.

This is no small development. A new technological asymmetry is in the making. India has a secret programme to control the Monsoon so that the jet streams of Pakistan are stolen and made to cause rain. Pakistan is left with no option but to take few deep breaths and stockpot the complete situation. The firing raids across LoC and Working Boundary are signaling to create a perception of inviolability of the border from Pakistan to Indian side but fairly assailable from Indian to Pakistani side.

Modi’s recent assertions in Dhaka were not without a purpose. All these admissions, leaks and blatant assertions are made to induce Pakistan’s decision making elite into a response generated through fear. The set pattern is upping the ante on the escalation ladder and buying the Indian war rhetoric. The prudent response could be, isolating India by highlighting these shenanigans on all the world forums. The most important is to adopt the counter measures. The strategic partnership if fostered further will be deemed as the connivance in crimes of the saffron brigade. From a waiver for Neuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to the role as Asia Pacific pivot or a member of BRICS, what India wants to demonstrate to the world?

—Islamabad

Sorry. While I admit responsibility for helping this thread veer off track - this article is straight BENIS material, Either a RAA agint or BRFite

Convert "mountain to mole"? "India's relations with Lithuania?"

[Abhay_S]

^^^ This guy has taken 'Talking out of the ASS' to a whole new level.

Shiv saar, This actually might be their doctrine

[tsarkar]

@Rahul - In 1965, A B Devayya was flying a Mystere, and in 1971, Bharat Bhushan Soni of 47 sq flew a MiG21 while Aruna Kumar Datta of 29 squadron also flew MiG-21. A K Datta's kill was the first & only A2A shooting of a supersonic fighter in the Indian subcontinent in the last day of the war.

Near misses -

Niraj Kukreja of 29 sq is supposed to have damaged the other Starfighter. Iqbal Singh Bindra too had damaged a Starfighter. Pakistan had to write off one Starfighter that landed safely but was damaged beyond repair. It could be one of the two above.

No 2 squadron flying Gnats at Amritsar in 1971 under its extraordinary commander Johnny Greene had its Starfighter & Mirage intercepts. Johnny Greene himself intercepted a Starfighter that declined combat & sped away. The fleeing fighter was captured on his gun camera.

Other members of his squadron had on two occasions engaged Mirages that too declined combat & sped away. They were chased by Gnats all the way to Lahore.

Lastly, in 1965, S Krishnaswamy (later COAS) too had the opportunity to take a pot shot at a crossing Starfighter, but he was momentarily awestruck by its beauty.

[Karan M]

Sorry. While I admit responsibility for helping this thread veer off track - this article is straight BENIS material, Either a RAA agint or BRFite

Convert "mountain to mole"? "India's relations with Lithuania?"

Denying India's nefarious plan in Sooth Asia region? You must be mujahir, or brahmin-banya or chankyan neeti follower or hindu follower of akhund bharat. never will al-bakistan surrender before hindu-hanood-lithuania axis. never!!

[arun]

X Posted from the “Oppression of Minorities In Pakistan” thread.

Uniformed Jihadis of the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan follow tactics adopted by a foreign army of occupation seeking to subdue an alien population and use a weapon that is both a disproportionate use of force and an inaccurate one prone to create collateral non-combatant damage against the Un-uniformed Jihadi’s of the TTP who are Pathan. All this Green on Green Intra Mohammadden violence during what Mohammadden’s claim is the holy month of Ramazan aka Ramadan.

What a contrast between how the Punjabi dominated Military of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which makes such a fetish of being Mohammadden fighting fellow Mohammaddens, albeit Pathan’s rather than Punjabi’s, and the Indian Army which in conducting operations within India is every mindful of the possibility of civilian collateral damage and thus chooses the weapons it uses to reflect proportionate force with greatest feasible accuracy:

23 militants killed in North Waziristan, Khyber Agency airstrikes

[member_20067]

http://inserbia.info/today/2015/06/serb ... an-report/

The Ministry of Defence of Serbia sold 282 T-55 tanks to Pakistan Army, which were from the arsenal marked as an obsolete equipment, Serbian Daily ‘Blic’ reported.


Pakistan continues to scrap the bottom of barrel...

[Aditya G]

Interesting. Why would they do that?

Seems that the much vouched for all Khalid is simply not available to replace older units

[nirav]

IA should have give the PAjis our old T55s. We have some 500-700 of them in storage...

What better way of target practice for IA with PAjis in tanks donated by us as part of 'aman ka tamasha' ?

[Karan M]

Typical TSP. Big talk on the outside. But mainstay of AF is JF-17 which no proper AF would touch with a barge pole. And now buying T-55s because they can't even make those & won't risk their handful of Al Khalids against the Taliban.

[nirav]

Next big ticket acquisition by naval PAjis.

[member_22539]

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 4h4 hours ago New Delhi, Delhi
Arjun's developers don't really expect any more orders for the Arjun tank from the Army. CVRDE folks are disappointed.

No wonder the pakis are buying used T-55s. Who needs good tanks to face the tincans in the IA. Good going DGMF.

[tsarkar]

^^ We gave our T-55s to Myanmar. These tanks will be used for COIN, so probably make sense. Probably will get Al Zarrar upgrades. Pakistan is the only country manufacturing T-55 components, so getting whatever they can helps.

Al Khalid & JF-17 require kits from China. Some stuff needs import, like FCS & optics. Or tank grade steel that Pakistan cannot manufacture. Something that they've been unable to afford after the initial tranche of 300. Iraq's Assad Babil tanks looked like T-72 but constructed of very shoddy material.

@Eklavya & Sreeman - we need to step back and assess geopolitics dispassionately.

Its not difficult to win a conventional war (Iraq 2003) or destroy a nation (Libya more recently). Buddy Bush can proclaim on USS Abraham Lincoln mission accomplished.

Its the post war scenario that is uncertain.

Nation Building at a rapid pace is possible where the populace is educated, like Japan or Germany after WW2.

Nations whose populace might not be well educated, but whose cultures are constructive, can also rebuild, like China after 1948 or South Korea after 1950, or Vietnam and Cambodia after S E Asian conflicts lasting well into the 80's. Even Bangladesh after liberation had a turbulent period, with Mujib assassinated. However, Bangladeshis are not a tribal culture, and have strong cultural roots, with focus on economics & education, and they've managed to emerge from the chaos. Iran too is a progressive nation, despite the revolution, because the Persians have a constructive culture.

Nations whose populace are tribal are problematic. Like Iraq, Syria & Libya. And US by hastening their breakup is actually creating a global problem. Tribal cultures expand rapidly, because procreation is the only socio-cultural pastime of uneducated people. Like Ajmal Kasab's labourer father who had 5 kids without the ability to feed or educate any. These populations are also vulnerable to conspiracy theories, and a sense of being denied of their right. Hence movements like Taliban get fertile ground to breed. With token welfare, Madrassa's like LeT & Taliban can poach on such populaces.

Now, desperate people have nothing to lose. And nations with focus on economic activities lose their military edge. Like the Dutch who defeated the British, but converted their fleet for commerce, and in the next war against the British, had no Navy for defence! Or Chinese troops being too fat for tanks built in 60's or 70's.

It a well known military paradigm that those wanting to change status quo need to be successful only once, while those wanting to maintain status quo need to be successful everytime. Hence, the Strategic Initiative rests with the side that wants to change status quo.

A fragmented & broken up Pakistan will be a fertile breeding ground for desperadoes wanting to change status quo of their prosperous neighbour. Atleast today, there is a semblance of order. Today our enemies have a face & an ORBAT. In a failed state, the enemies wont even have a face.

[Sid]

^^ Another reason can be to use them for parts to keep current fleet of T-55s running. They did the same for Mirages.

I was wondering, they bought this whole assembly-line for Al-kha-leed but produced only 500 (compared to their armored strength). Are they already done with this model?

[member_22539]

A fragmented & broken up Pakistan will be a fertile breeding ground for desperadoes wanting to change status quo of their prosperous neighbour.

It already is.

Atleast today, there is a semblance of order.

And this "order" doesn't help us in ANY way, it only focuses most of the barbarian aggression against us. It does help the west/usa though.

Besides, which is better, the "order" with nuclear weapons pointed at us and focusing most of their evil on us or disorder with barbarian vermin going off in all directions against everyone, having been nuke de-fanged?

[Shreeman]

ts,

Living in a bubble of fantasy doesnt help. The "dispassionate"ness needs to extend to admissions of past mistakes, and current hard facts. In re. "what to do", the status quo isnt set in stone. Who would have thunk syria, libya, ukraine. Next, Armenia. These werent somalia.

You can conjure up the courage and face up to the situation, or keep moving large denomination R amounts between public and private bank accounts and pretend nothing is needed. Until the situation becomes irretrievably untenable. Probably well within our visibility.

[Singha]

have to second shreeman and arun here. its far better the poison in TSP spreads off in all directions instead of the usual directed energy only on india. right now TSP nukes are a indian problem, its better to convert it to the worlds problem so that none will know WHEN a bomb will go off under their armchair but all can backtrace it to TSP. having a western certified munna Govt lets them play both ends of the game......having a somalia type warlordistan takes away that legitimacy and gives everyone a good chance to bomb them back to stone age.

also the growth of ISIS in TSP is promising in that respect. unlike the regional ambitions of the taliban or LET/JEM tanzeems, the ISIS is willing and able to take what TSP has and use that to hit anywhere in the world, and we are way down on their "great satan" list vs bigger fish that have meddled in their waters.

probably the first nuke ISIS gets will not be marked for london, NYC, rome, jerusalem or nai dilli - but for riyadh and makkah to destroy the al sauds and usher in a new set of rulers in the holy lands.

[rkhanna]

Some sort of Documentary on the FC-1

https://vimeo.com/132270405

[Austin]

PAF JF 17 Promotional Video

[deejay]

^^^ This and another promo video - So now two that I have seen of JF 17. One can argue on the correctness and over the top descriptions but the fact that Pakis are working on promoting this internationally cannot be disputed. Both promos are good.

They are positioning it is as a Gen 3, latest and affordable fighter for those nations looking to buy in this category.

[nirav]

Just saw this pic. Flying PAjis selfie during Anatolian Eagle '15 ...

The guys wearing a damn Chashma while flying an F-16 !!
Chasma must be rated for 9G ..