Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 22 May 2014 09:24

PAF inducts Jordanian F-16A/B MLUs into its 4th F-16 squadron.

PAF inducts fourth Squadron with modern F-16s

21 May, 2014

The aircrafts have been purchased from Royal Jordanian Air Force.

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has re-equipped fourth Squadron with state-of-the art aircraft F-16s today.

A ceremony in this connection held in Sargodha today (Wednesday), which was attended by Chief of the Army Staff, General Raheel Sharif as chief guest. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt was also present with him.

A smartly turned out contingent of Number 19 Squadron presented the general salute to the chief guest followed by parade. The Chief Guest transferred the Squadron flag to new commander and as per tradition newly inducted F-16s of Number 19 Squadron presented a fly past followed by a stunning aerial display.

It is worthy to note, that the aircrafts have been purchased at a minimal price from Royal Jordanian Air Force after series of negotiations held between concerned ministries and the concerted efforts of Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt.

Number 19 Squadron "Sherdils" was raised in 1958 at PAF Base Mauripur with 12 American origin F-86F Sabre Aircraft. During 1965 war, Number 19 Squadron, apart from other victories, has the unrivalled distinction of carrying out the first successful close air support mission at Wagha, and famous air strike at Pathankot airfield. It also has the honour of having six Sitara-e-Jurat. In 1990, the Squadron was equipped with Pakistan's newly acquired Chinese F-7P interceptor aircraft and was converted into an Operational Conversion Unit in July 1991.

The current Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt also commanded the Squadron with the onerous responsibility of setting up the new conversion unit. The unit has strengthened the defence of motherland by graduating 652 fighter pilots till date.

link

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 May 2014 10:33

Pakiland will now get more weapons with direct and indirect support of khan as a measure of intimidating India under NM who is not playing ball with khan.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 22 May 2014 10:52

Well this scenario may change now (abt providing support to pak).

Mr. Modi is not a fan of U.S & believe or not U.S is in more need of India's Friendship.(considering increasing repo in the region).

also there is a point that Mr. Modi is a good friend of China,Israel & Iran all of which plays significant role in U.S policies(in past & future)

Pak is of no use to U.S in future (& U.S tend to change there stands as it fits their needs).

So just like our own munna(RG) got shocked by the modi wave , the other munna(pak) can also be shocked my the modi wave.(U.S policy change)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Jun 2014 17:47

Russia may supply attack helicopters to Pakistan - DT

Russia has lifted an embargo on sales of weapons and military hardware to Pakistan and is planning to supply Islamabad with attack helicopters, said Sergei Chemezov, the chief executive officer of the Rostec, the state defence corporation of the country.

“Such a decision was made. We are negotiating the sales of Mi-35 helicopters to Pakistan,” Chemezov said on Monday. A source with the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Islamabad told RIA Novosti news service that there had never been an embargo on Russian sales to Pakistan in the first place.

It was rather that cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow was limited due to Russia’s intensive trade with India. Russia has been supplying its Mi-8 helicopters to Iran, among others. In 2012, the two countries struck a deal worth $4.3 billion for the export modification of Russia's nigh-time strike chopper Mig-28N, dubbed night hunter and for Mi-35 attack helicopters, a total of 40 aircraft.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jun 2014 18:04

Thats a stab in the back attack helicopters.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2014 18:50

Aditya_V wrote:Thats a stab in the back attack helicopters.

LoL. No back stab.

There is a hint in that article.

It was rather that cooperation between Islamabad and Moscow was limited due to Russia’s intensive trade with India

Not sure if this has any meaning or is an innocent remark. But, that, to a very great extent, was the truth. Suspect things are changing - which is normal and to be expected.

Point being: Countries act in their own interests. Even "Russia". They are no different than any other nation.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 02 Jun 2014 22:21

If we buy Apache, they need buyer for Hind, no? Why the heart burn at this supposed back stab if we find Apache better than Hind?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jun 2014 11:07

Pakistan will likely go for the T-129 ATAK helicopters from Turkey, not the Mi-35..they have evaluated the T-129 a while ago.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 03 Jun 2014 11:11

Interesting development of Russians supplying attack helix to Pakis. Russia is still a friend but reinforces the point that friendship of countries is not like friendship of humans.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 11:16

Kartik wrote:Pakistan will likely go for the T-129 ATAK helicopters from Turkey, not the Mi-35..they have evaluated the T-129 a while ago.

I think it depends what is cheap and the role they see for it and if they have to pay a price , Mi-35 is cheap and reliable good for anti-terrorist ops in semi-mountain region and also extensively used in Afghanistan , T-129 would be a better chopper but if Pakistanis have to pay for it they might not go but if Turkey/Saudi/US banks rolls them in some way then they might.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Jun 2014 11:27

NightWatch Comment

Russia-Pakistan: Russia has lifted its embargo on sales of weapons and military hardware to Pakistan. The first item under consideration is Mi-35 attack helicopters.

The head of Russia's state defense corporation said Monday, "Such a decision was made. We are negotiating the sales of Mi-35 helicopters to the country."

A Pakistani official said there had never been an embargo on Russian sales to Pakistan. Rather Russia refused to sell weapons to Pakistan because of Russia's arms relations with India.

Comment: Russia will never replace China as Pakistan's principal source of weapons. On the other hand, Russia can sell directly to Pakistan or facilitate the sale of advanced weapons technology that China lacks. That way Russia gains a measure of access and influence it has never had in Pakistan.

The Pakistan Army has 35 operational AH-1 Cobra attack helicopters provided by the US. The Army is in the market for newer systems. The Russians apparently intend to try to compete for this business.

This initiative is another manifestation of regional preparations for the post-2014 security situation in Afghanistan. Russia is broadening the scope of its interaction with the regional interests by engaging Pakistan. That looks like a lesson learned from the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan that ended in February 1989.

Pakistan will have to pay for Russian products and they do not come very cheap. Pakistan has never paid (or paid much) for anything it has received so far.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Jun 2014 11:39

Did they upgrade the AH-1 Cobra so far ? They have a decent number of AH-1

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 03 Jun 2014 12:00

So, this does open the gates for supply of other weapons (in distant future maybe, just maybe, advanced weapons like PAK-FA) and, we all know who else will have access to such weapons once they fall in paki hands.

This raises some very serious questions that the MOD must start thinking about.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 03 Jun 2014 12:52

Russia, and specially Putin, judged every ally based on their response on situation in Ukraine. For some reason China was right by their side.

It might be possible that there is a Chinese hand in facilitating good relations between Russia and Porkistan.

And India helped in this decision as well, by giving a lukewarm response on Russia's stand in Ukraine.

And recently Russians have not won any major defense deal eiher, MMRCA/light&heavy transport/heavy&attack halo/light utility halo/SP Guns/light arms/SAM. There are big ticket programs supported by Russians but only because no one else can provide them.

Also, we hardly crib when France and Amreeka provides tons of weapons to Porkistan. We are still buying MMRCA and every other available weapon from Amreeka.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Jun 2014 16:32

Two pilots dead as PAF training aircraft crashes in Karachi-pak tribune

KARACHI: A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) training aircraft crashed in Baldia Town, Karachi leaving both pilots dead and four others injured, Express News reported on Tuesday.
According to SP Baldia, the plane erupted in flames after the crash. A fire brigade is in the area to extinguish the fire.
The area was cordoned off and the injured have been taken to hospital for treatment.
The reason for the crash is not known at this time.

Looks like its close to residential area.
Edit-UPDATE i was right, more detailed version from dawn x-post from stfu-p thread
Three killed as PAF jet crashes in Karachi's Baldia Town

KARACHI: At least three people were killed and eight injured when a Pakistan air force fighter plane crashed at a bus terminal in Karachi’s Baldia Town area. Those killed included both pilots operating the plane and an ordinary citizen. The crash took place in Baldia Town's Yousuf Goth neighbourhood injuring at least eight on ground. Witnesses said the plane had exploded mid-air and the rubble from the crash was spread far and wide. Sajid Sadozai, a senior police official, said two buses parked at the terminal were destroyed while another was damaged. A number of nearby buildings also suffered structural damage. TV footage showed plumes of black smoke rising from the site as rescue teams rushed in. A PAF spokesman confirmed that both pilots flying the training jet had died in the crash, but could not give a cause for the incident. Rescue teams and fire tenders had reached the site of the crash which took place near a bus terminal in the area. The plane was described as a small fighter jet but its type is not yet known.

Karachi: 4 killed, 3 injured as PAF trainer jet crashes in Baldia Town-The news pk
From the wreckage it looks like its not a mushaq but either F-7 or Mirage atleast.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 03 Jun 2014 16:33

BTW with altaf bhai arrested, there will be quite a lot of fireworks in krachi

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Jun 2014 07:12

From the news report above:
At least three people were killed and eight injured when a Pakistan air force fighter plane crashed at a bus terminal in Karachi’s Baldia Town area. Those killed included both pilots operating the plane and an ordinary citizen.

In Shitistan those not in the armed forces are civilians? Dont know. What is official in the media is that they are just ordinary.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 04 Jun 2014 08:26

It was Mirage jet trainer that crashed

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Jun 2014 11:04

Pakistan raises Defence budget by 10%

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jun 2014 04:35

India closely watching Russian move to sell attack helicopters to Pakistan - Rajat Pandit, ToI

India is closely tracking Russia's move to directly supply Mi-35 attack helicopters to Pakistan by lifting an informal arms embargo. But officials here also say that Russian arms have in any case been surreptitiously finding their way to Pakistan through China for years now.

"Yes, there is some concern here. But then, other countries like the US and France also sell their weaponry to both sides of the line of control. If the French sell Agosta-90B submarines to Pakistan, they sell the Scorpene submarines to us," said a senior defence official.

This comes in the backdrop of Russian Rostec corporation chief Sergei Chemezov declaring in Moscow on Monday that his country had lifted the arms embargo on Pakistan.

"We are negotiating the sales of Mi-35 helicopters to the country (Pakistan)," he said.

Russian ambassador to India, Alexander M Kadakin, on Wednesday however stressed his country would never do anything that would prove "detrimental" to the "deep and strategic" partnership with India.

While holding that there was never any formal arms embargo on Pakistan, he said talks on the supply of the Mi-35s were only at an "initial" stage at present.

Whatever be the case, say Indian officials, Pakistan has been getting Russian equipment ranging from aero-engines for its JF-17 fighters being produced with China to thinly-disguised Chinese variants of Russian radars, guns and the like.

Russia, of course, is piqued by India's conscious effort to increasingly turn to other countries like US, Israel and France for its military requirements since the 1999 Kargil conflict.

Russia has been India's largest defence supplier, with military sales worth over $40 billion since the first MiG-21s in 1963 to the present-day Sukhoi-30MKI fighters.

But the US alone has bagged Indian defence deals close to $10 billion over the last decade.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Jun 2014 18:17

New Chinese 5th Generation Fighter Jet – J31 Performs More Flight Tests

Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer for the J-31, .........

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 07 Jun 2014 20:28

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 04:48

Chill man...the J-31 will mostly be a flying lemon, a Gen behind what is true 5Gen. Take a look at JF-17 specs vs all other 4G+ types out today. In contrast, we will have a proper 5G platform in the FGFA.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 08 Jun 2014 07:24

Karan M wrote:Chill man...the J-31 will mostly be a flying lemon, a Gen behind what is true 5Gen. Take a look at JF-17 specs vs all other 4G+ types out today. In contrast, we will have a proper 5G platform in the FGFA.

To be fair the PLAAF hasn't placed any orders for the JF-17. The J-10B in contrast is a very credible 4.5G fighter. The Paks may not be able to the afford the J-31 (they can't afford the J-10 today), but we'll certainly be facing it on the eastern front.

As far its performance goes, it'll almost certainly be under-powered but as far as the sophistication of its avionics goes, in that sphere the Chinese industry is well on its way to catching up with the Russians (assuming its not done so already).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jun 2014 07:51

nik wrote: del.

Please edit out this comment.

Your reaction is exactly what is desired by people who talk of what the Paki AF is going to get - their pleasure comes from watching Indians like you squirm and feel frustrated. That is your problem - but please don't pass off your problem as something that the IAF is responsible for and not you.

If what you choose to describe as our del. has never done its job when the time came you have a right to talk the way you have done. In fact it is the PAF that has failed. Do you actually read IAF history?

I seriously object to your unnecessary comment. This kind of self flagellation is idiotic.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 13:15

Viv S wrote:
Karan M wrote:Chill man...the J-31 will mostly be a flying lemon, a Gen behind what is true 5Gen. Take a look at JF-17 specs vs all other 4G+ types out today. In contrast, we will have a proper 5G platform in the FGFA.
To be fair the PLAAF hasn't placed any orders for the JF-17. The J-10B in contrast is a very credible 4.5G fighter. The Paks may not be able to the afford the J-31 (they can't afford the J-10 today), but we'll certainly be facing it on the eastern front.

As far its performance goes, it'll almost certainly be under-powered but as far as the sophistication of its avionics goes, in that sphere the Chinese industry is well on its way to catching up with the Russians (assuming its not done so already).

If we take a serious look at the Chinese avionics industry and they are still significantly behind Russia. The Chinese lack the edge in FCRs in particular where Russia has leveraged its decades of work in ESAs. The other area where they are dwarfed is propulsion. Both of these were why the Chinese kept their effort going to acquire the Su-35.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 13:18

The JFI7 compare is germaine because it is to the J10 what J31 will be to the J20.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jun 2014 21:07

If the US, in cooperation with other western nations, struggles to meet deadlines and specs of the F 35 it is interesting to me that the Chinese simply come up with a medium size black aircraft on the lines of the F-35 and have already decided an export customer (just as the US has already reached export agreements).

The way the Chinese are doing it tells a story, but that story can be told in different ways.

One way of telling the story is that the US is incompetent and is losing its touch and is struggling to produce the F-35, while the Chinese with their dedication and wizardry are doing it ease and elan.

The other way if telling it is much less fun, and usually earns the storyteller a stern lecture "Never underestimate the Chinese". The second story is that the Chinese thing is a sham with a fraction of the capability and stealth of the F 35.

i will stick to story number one onlee

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jun 2014 22:36

Shivji by painting it black it became a stealth plane. Why you no understand??

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jun 2014 00:20

Not military related:

Gunmen attack Karachi's Jinnah International Airport

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 09 Jun 2014 01:26

Karan M wrote:Shivji by painting it black it became a stealth plane. Why you no understand??

And Indians painted their LCAs white. No stealth or martial characteristics at all.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jun 2014 01:52

NRao wrote:Not military related:

Gunmen attack Karachi's Jinnah International Airport

There were no aircraft in Arabia in 700AD, clearly anti Islamic activities were going on this creation of the western infidels, air-port it seems! Even the name seems obscene!

Next the glorious Taliban will probably cleanse the PAF bases where they have JF-17s. Confidential sources state these bad devices were made by infidels who ate pork, bacon and ham!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jun 2014 01:54

jamwal wrote:
Karan M wrote:Shivji by painting it black it became a stealth plane. Why you no understand??
And Indians painted their LCAs white. No stealth or martial characteristics at all.

They even built those things you kafir. Pakistan only buys stuff, that is how powerful Pakistan is.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 09 Jun 2014 18:06

shiv wrote:i will stick to story number one onlee

Smart. Never underestimate the Chinese who have displayed the capability to build so many credible types all at once - J10, J15, JF-17, J20, J31. Attention to the finest detail - notice the number progression.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jun 2014 20:59

Happy Ghazwae Sindh

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jun 2014 21:01

ROTFL at Pakistan Army

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... o-Pakistan

LONDON: Serious questions have risen after a British millionaire was convicted here for selling fake bomb detectors to many countries, including Pakistan.

“The devices did not work and he knew they did not work,” prosecutor Richard Whittam told jurors. Each device was sold for £27,000. Bomb detectors are used widely in Pakistan by private and state security forces but public and private agencies will have to buy new and authentic equipment.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jun 2014 21:16

Karan M wrote:ROTFL at Pakistan Army

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-1 ... o-Pakistan

LONDON: Serious questions have risen after a British millionaire was convicted here for selling fake bomb detectors to many countries, including Pakistan.

“The devices did not work and he knew they did not work,” prosecutor Richard Whittam told jurors. Each device was sold for £27,000. Bomb detectors are used widely in Pakistan by private and state security forces but public and private agencies will have to buy new and authentic equipment.

It is alright to lie for an Islamic cause, as Zia ul Haq said. The man has helped the Taliban and should be honoured and released.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jun 2014 23:46

With a nishan e jurat no less...anyways a lot of the citations for all those jazz are made up!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 10 Jun 2014 05:52

Karan M wrote:

Happy Ghazwae Sindh

Change of strategy from Ghazwa-e-Hind to Ghazwa-e-Sindh, hain?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Jun 2014 03:56

Karan M wrote:If we take a serious look at the Chinese avionics industry and they are still significantly behind Russia. The Chinese lack the edge in FCRs in particular where Russia has leveraged its decades of work in ESAs. The other area where they are dwarfed is propulsion. Both of these were why the Chinese kept their effort going to acquire the Su-35.

I don't believe that's the case anymore. Their latest Flankers and J-10s are already operational with AESAs for example, while the Russians are still a couple of years away from fielding their first.

The JFI7 compare is germaine because it is to the J10 what J31 will be to the J20.

Most public sources suggest that the PLAAF will operate a majority of J-31s along with a smaller number of J-20s.

The JF-17s isn't going enter service in China, while the PAF isn't going to induct J-10s. A more apt comparison might be with the J-10 and Su-27 derivatives.