Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2015 14:10

A 50 kg warhead is more than enough for armor. Milan 2T has a 7Kg warhead.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Apr 2015 14:23

Karan M wrote:A 50 kg warhead is more than enough for armor. Milan 2T has a 7Kg warhead.

Total Weight is 50 kg , Warhead weight is 8-9 Kg tandem or shaped same as NAG.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 08 Apr 2015 15:00

Trite to say here: but the US arms sale to pakis stems from the excuse which the Kahn State Department continues makes about them : that Pakis are a Security Seeking State (Which C.C Fair has also pointed out in one of her discussions)

Another revelations is that Pakis are very very nervous about the Cold Start

Paki nukestubation may have not deterred India one bit. And both Pakis and the Khan know this. (Indian aggressiveness on the border may have contributed in helping them realize this wisdom).

The latest Khan arms sale is to allay the Pakis; and detent the Indian cold start readiness for further 2-3 years into the future.

This period should give Pakis the ‘LeT’ window to act or threaten India in the knowledge that Cold start has been countered in conventional arms – thus deterring and embarrassing an Hawkish leadership into pusillanimity.

India will have to do Chai-biskoot to avoid LeT stimuli and a self aware response of required meekness.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Apr 2015 15:07

^^^ You can suger coat a turd as much as you like, it doesnt become a caramel toffee.

The US manufacturers want profits, and the rest doesnt mean squat. India has absolutely no influence nor courage to face up to the challenge. If taiwan is still getting US arms then you can forget about pakistan.

While we are at it, those shiny toys you bought for billions from the US? Totally useless in a war. Only good for parades. Buy 6 of this and 9 of those at $10B a piece. Sure, quid pro quo for nuke deal, whatever.

Step up from screwdrivergiri that is indian MIC, or you will get the freedom bestowed upon you too, sooner or later.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 08 Apr 2015 17:07

To the extent possible, Indians should stop propping up the economies of countries which support homicidal maniacs. That is the only way this nonsense will end.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 08 Apr 2015 19:04

Pakistan isn't as worried about Cold Start as it is about the country being ripped apart from within. Cold Start is dead because we lack covert options as we move up the escalation ladder with them. We won't slap them with it at the start of a major crisis. No doubt we are slowly building this capability up but it will take years.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Apr 2015 22:04

"Cold Start is dead" - "No doubt we are slowly building this capability"

Eh?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Apr 2015 22:32

I think Roy meant "element of surprise". But it was never about that in the first place.

Idea was to make Porkies brown their salwars at the mere thought of adventurism. That in turn will prompt them to restructure their forces and spend even more defenses to soften that "one-tight-slap" whenever they will misbehave next time.

They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Apr 2015 22:36

On the topic of US arming them with Hellfires, I think we will soon see them on their UCAVs.

I hope Amreekies knew what they were doing.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 09 Apr 2015 00:11

Karan M, I think RoyG meant that "we are slowly building this capability up [of covert action] but it will take years [for that capability to be fully developed]." RoyG was probably writing in a hurry, that's why the language wasn't clear.

By the way, RoyG, nice to have you back on BR. I do think you need to relax a bit, but your posts are often interesting.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2015 06:45

US is probably moving to some successor of the hellfire like cheaper guided 70mm rockets.

thats why it is ok with the chinese crawling all over the hellfire

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 09 Apr 2015 06:50

Speculation Alert

The Latest lot of Khan arms to the Beggar boys in khaki , Could be to curtail any further purchases from Russia

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2015 07:42

Avarachan wrote:Karan M, I think RoyG meant that "we are slowly building this capability up [of covert action] but it will take years [for that capability to be fully developed]." RoyG was probably writing in a hurry, that's why the language wasn't clear.

By the way, RoyG, nice to have you back on BR. I do think you need to relax a bit, but your posts are often interesting.

But what does CS have to do with covert action?

Per all the info out there, CS was basically sabotaged by the INC - MMS/SG/NSA cabal as they felt it could get the IA far too many options & make it aggressively to TSP adventurism sabotaging the great Nobel price/Khan driven peaceefforts in sooth Asia.
Theres enough info released now..

In contrast, I think the current GOI will basically give the IA the tools to wage Cold Start.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2015 07:44

Singha wrote:US is probably moving to some successor of the hellfire like cheaper guided 70mm rockets.

thats why it is ok with the chinese crawling all over the hellfire

they'll probably have an inspection team in TSP crawling up every Abduls butt to inspect for any missing hellfire parts anyhow

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 09 Apr 2015 08:41

Have we inked the Apache and Hellfire combo yet? Hope not as we will have better luck firing diwali rockets on their tanks after this transfer is done.

Wonder where will our 'importistas' scamper now as Paki+China team sport both RUssian and American helicopters and missile goodies. My suggestion is that DRDO and HAL should relocate their headquatersto Switzerland - everyone will be happy this way.

China is getting a lot of freebies through Paki backdoor - figuratively and literally

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Apr 2015 09:33

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:US is probably moving to some successor of the hellfire like cheaper guided 70mm rockets.

thats why it is ok with the chinese crawling all over the hellfire
they'll probably have an inspection team in TSP crawling up every Abduls butt to inspect for any missing hellfire parts anyhow

Inspection teams are not effective.

Porkies successfully updated their Harpoons with land attack capabilitis. Just wait for red arrow 3 which will look exactly like hellfire in few years time.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Apr 2015 09:34

to be fair, that land attack stuff was done when US didn't have inspection teams crawling over TSPs backside.
of course losing a few hellfires in firing trials etc is easy. but its the US's decision to have donated this stuff to PRC.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Apr 2015 12:34

The range of Hellfire is close to our recently purchased Spike-ER the former is 10 km versus ER range of 8 km.

But it seems Hellfire carries a larger warhead of 8kg , I couldnt get warhead size of Spike-ER could be the case that Spike-ER carries ligher warhead as the overall weight of missile is just 33kg compared to 50 kg of Hellfire.

http://www.eurospike.com/img/downloads/SPIKE-ER.pdf

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 09 Apr 2015 20:29

I wonder if the whole cold start doctrine is a double bluff played by us. The TSP are getting very specific types of weapon systems

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 09 Apr 2015 21:23

maxratul wrote:I wonder if the whole cold start doctrine is a double bluff played by us. The TSP are getting very specific types of weapon systems

What double bluff, All i see recently we are acquiring a lot of defensive stuff and transport equipment from khan. Pakis have been getting proper offensive equipment.

Artillery, attack choppers, etc.

I think our armys had not inducted new offensive systems for a long time. Just compare the attack chopper or artillery of pakis with ours.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 09 Apr 2015 21:34

Karan M wrote:"Cold Start is dead" - "No doubt we are slowly building this capability"

Eh?

Covert capabilities.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 09 Apr 2015 22:01

Karan M wrote:
Avarachan wrote:Karan M, I think RoyG meant that "we are slowly building this capability up [of covert action] but it will take years [for that capability to be fully developed]." RoyG was probably writing in a hurry, that's why the language wasn't clear.

By the way, RoyG, nice to have you back on BR. I do think you need to relax a bit, but your posts are often interesting.
But what does CS have to do with covert action?

Per all the info out there, CS was basically sabotaged by the INC - MMS/SG/NSA cabal as they felt it could get the IA far too many options & make it aggressively to TSP adventurism sabotaging the great Nobel price/Khan driven peaceefforts in sooth Asia.
Theres enough info released now..

In contrast, I think the current GOI will basically give the IA the tools to wage Cold Start.

It has everything to do with it in the sense that CS doesn't fall into the first rung of the escalation ladder in the event of a non nuclear crisis like a major terror attack. This was indirectly alluded to by Doval in a security talk delivered last year I believe.

Even if lets say we nibbled 30-40 km of their territory in certain areas and we bring Pakistan to the negotiating table, do they really have the capability to transform their own state apparatus? What assurances or concessions could they really give us? With our economy on the upswing and with a relatively stable center, the PMO wouldn't risk it.

Instead, we need a wider range of quieter options which maximizes sustainability of response while hitting at the states center of gravity.

As far as an initial punitive response is concerned we could easily hit one of their diplomatic missions in Nepal, Sri Lanka, or Bangladesh. They were probing in Herat and killed our military attache in the Kabul suicide attack. This is a very low hanging fruit that we could certainly capitalize on.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 09 Apr 2015 22:08

bhavani wrote:
maxratul wrote:I wonder if the whole cold start doctrine is a double bluff played by us. The TSP are getting very specific types of weapon systems
What double bluff, All i see recently we are acquiring a lot of defensive stuff and transport equipment from khan. Pakis have been getting proper offensive equipment.

Artillery, attack choppers, etc.

I think our armys had not inducted new offensive systems for a long time. Just compare the attack chopper or artillery of pakis with ours.

Bhavani sir, Pakis are becoming beggar by spending all that cash in the fear of cold start. If (and a big if) a full scale war breaks out which will require such a move by us, the conflict will not be confined to Indo-Pak for sure given the strategic environment. It will become a mess with uncle-ji, deep friends, the hajis, the shalom babas and the bhaloo all getting involved, which in turn undermines the basic premise of cold start.

IMHO, if the situation degrades enough to warrant a full scale offensive, it will be the old school iron fist doctrine to destroy TSP- for that we need strategic assets (arihant, agni etc etc) and big shakti for second strike and deterrence respectively - we still have enough of a conventional superiority. I see us investing (albeit slowly) in these things, and it is probably a safe bet that a thermonuclear test will be carried out by the last year of Modi-sarkar 1.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Apr 2015 01:36

Avarachan wrote:Karan M, I think RoyG meant that "we are slowly building this capability up [of covert action] but it will take years [for that capability to be fully developed]." RoyG was probably writing in a hurry, that's why the language wasn't clear.

By the way, RoyG, nice to have you back on BR. I do think you need to relax a bit, but your posts are often interesting.

Thank you for your kind words. I've been focusing on my career. I finished basic medical sciences not too long ago and I'm now doing STEP prep. Have a bit more free time now. Haven't been following the Pakistani's for a while. Doesn't seem like much has changed.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Apr 2015 06:07

Singha wrote:US is probably moving to some successor of the hellfire like cheaper guided 70mm rockets.

thats why it is ok with the chinese crawling all over the hellfire

Hellfire Family gets replaced by JAGM Increment 1-3 and possibly the Brimstone which the USN particularly is interested in. Lots of politics and budget issues but the JAGM program should go through. Lockheed submitted its proposal a couple of days ago. Raytheon will do so as well soon.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 10:16

lack of knowledge has never prevented me from confidently ranting on any topic, so here is my take on the PAF/Paks war strategy.

1. they would not go for a 1st strike proactively on india - conventional or nuclear as it would give us an excuse to throw the kitchen sink and deny sympathy from the fathers, hajjis et al.
2. mission#1 would be to protect certain areas decided as launching zones for their IRBMs, these would be near major airbases where such missiles are stored
3. mission#2 would be blunt any indian armour offensive - for this the 1000s of hellfires, LGBs being handed out will be liberally used. and cobra helis at night for raiding based on sinic satintel inputs. sinics will likely setup a temporary satintel downlink and processing center in pindi for the duration to help their wards.
4. since they would not start the war, india would mass its 1st echelon on the border before the d-day....but sustaining this horde whether in place or on offense needs a large logistical tail of commandeered trucks, railways etc.....the 1000s of JDAMs they have been given and the F-solahs will be used to take out major transport networks in north and west india - railways, POL, bridges .... this would make the indians incapable of sustaining a large offensive - larger the offensive more the consumables needed, more the fat tail to hit.
5. mission#3 would be prevent any indian territorial gains into POK . for this the terrain is well suited already to defensive posture and lots of good airbases nearby.
6. they would not care about losing some empty desert in Sindh if they can hold the line in Punjab and POK
7. arrange for saudi protection detail of EF/F-15 to patrol over their rear areas like quetta and peshawar where the intel a/c, tankers, transports and AWACS would operate from. india would mostly not be able to launch such deep strikes so chances of encounters between IAF ac and these would be minimal. these are even out of brahmos & prithvi range, so india would need to climb the ladder to using Shourya or Agni1 to target these places, not easily entertained.
8. use one of the A90b subs and the older subs to screen karachi approaches
9. send out the other two A90b for offensive patrol to try and avoid the IN and bag some fat transports headed on Mumbai-Aden sea route. raise insurance costs for india. a single A90B could easily sink 6 container ships/tankers on a mission and return. ignore the IN and just hit the soft underbelly.
10. for morale reasons target a prominent place like jamnagar refinery with harpoon missiles from submarine or babur missile from land or ship
11. flood the field with manpower (mujahdis, razakars, tribal levies) and seek to tie down IA in heavily built up urban areas, with civilian presence....makes for good delaying tactics and if india pounds the place the media will come down hard on civilian casualties
12. ask all sleeper cells lying in cashmere to go all out for a while randomly shooting and bombing.
13. using the F-solahs at night hit some prestige targets in N and W india close to cities, so TV will show in full glory....
14. arrange for saudi flagged ships and naval units to escort tankers into karachi and other places, with protective RSAF air cover
15. ask for a loan of two RSAF E-3 to cover the coastal areas and relay info , freeing up the domestic awacs for center and north.

with all of this, last out 3 weeks and fight india to a stalemate, for which india will suffer more politically and economically than pakistan.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2015 11:00

^^ Any strike by Pakistan wont happen without taking Saudis and US into confidence.

That would call for immediate ceasefire by usual suspect along with threat of sanctions on both and call to talk on negotiating table ......this is tried and test script worked before in kargil too. The agressor as usual will go scott free with a commitment they wont do that again ever !

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Apr 2015 11:31

Singha wrote:lack of knowledge has never prevented me from confidently ranting on any topic, so here is my take on the PAF/Paks war strategy.

1. they would not go for a 1st strike proactively on india - conventional or nuclear as it would give us an excuse to throw the kitchen sink and deny sympathy from the fathers, hajjis et al.
2. mission#1 would be to protect certain areas decided as launching zones for their IRBMs, these would be near major airbases where such missiles are stored
3. mission#2 would be blunt any indian armour offensive - for this the 1000s of hellfires, LGBs being handed out will be liberally used. and cobra helis at night for raiding based on sinic satintel inputs. sinics will likely setup a temporary satintel downlink and processing center in pindi for the duration to help their wards.
4. since they would not start the war, india would mass its 1st echelon on the border before the d-day....but sustaining this horde whether in place or on offense needs a large logistical tail of commandeered trucks, railways etc.....the 1000s of JDAMs they have been given and the F-solahs will be used to take out major transport networks in north and west india - railways, POL, bridges .... this would make the indians incapable of sustaining a large offensive - larger the offensive more the consumables needed, more the fat tail to hit.
5. mission#3 would be prevent any indian territorial gains into POK . for this the terrain is well suited already to defensive posture and lots of good airbases nearby.
6. they would not care about losing some empty desert in Sindh if they can hold the line in Punjab and POK
7. arrange for saudi protection detail of EF/F-15 to patrol over their rear areas like quetta and peshawar where the intel a/c, tankers, transports and AWACS would operate from. india would mostly not be able to launch such deep strikes so chances of encounters between IAF ac and these would be minimal. these are even out of brahmos & prithvi range, so india would need to climb the ladder to using Shourya or Agni1 to target these places, not easily entertained.
8. use one of the A90b subs and the older subs to screen karachi approaches
9. send out the other two A90b for offensive patrol to try and avoid the IN and bag some fat transports headed on Mumbai-Aden sea route. raise insurance costs for india. a single A90B could easily sink 6 container ships/tankers on a mission and return. ignore the IN and just hit the soft underbelly.
10. for morale reasons target a prominent place like jamnagar refinery with harpoon missiles from submarine or babur missile from land or ship
11. flood the field with manpower (mujahdis, razakars, tribal levies) and seek to tie down IA in heavily built up urban areas, with civilian presence....makes for good delaying tactics and if india pounds the place the media will come down hard on civilian casualties
12. ask all sleeper cells lying in cashmere to go all out for a while randomly shooting and bombing.
13. using the F-solahs at night hit some prestige targets in N and W india close to cities, so TV will show in full glory....
14. arrange for saudi flagged ships and naval units to escort tankers into karachi and other places, with protective RSAF air cover
15. ask for a loan of two RSAF E-3 to cover the coastal areas and relay info , freeing up the domestic awacs for center and north.

with all of this, last out 3 weeks and fight india to a stalemate, for which india will suffer more politically and economically than pakistan.

whens the next writeup on the scenario thread? enquiring minds want to know.

member_25985 · Post by **member_25985** » 10 Apr 2015 13:59

Singha wrote:lack of knowledge has never prevented me from confidently ranting on any topic, so here is my take on the PAF/Paks war strategy.

1. they would not go for a 1st strike proactively on india - conventional or nuclear as it would give us an excuse to throw the kitchen sink and deny sympathy from the fathers, hajjis et al.
2. mission#1 would be to protect certain areas decided as launching zones for their IRBMs, these would be near major airbases where such missiles are stored
3. mission#2 would be blunt any indian armour offensive - for this the 1000s of hellfires, LGBs being handed out will be liberally used. and cobra helis at night for raiding based on sinic satintel inputs. sinics will likely setup a temporary satintel downlink and processing center in pindi for the duration to help their wards.
4. since they would not start the war, india would mass its 1st echelon on the border before the d-day....but sustaining this horde whether in place or on offense needs a large logistical tail of commandeered trucks, railways etc.....the 1000s of JDAMs they have been given and the F-solahs will be used to take out major transport networks in north and west india - railways, POL, bridges .... this would make the indians incapable of sustaining a large offensive - larger the offensive more the consumables needed, more the fat tail to hit.
5. mission#3 would be prevent any indian territorial gains into POK . for this the terrain is well suited already to defensive posture and lots of good airbases nearby.
6. they would not care about losing some empty desert in Sindh if they can hold the line in Punjab and POK
7. arrange for saudi protection detail of EF/F-15 to patrol over their rear areas like quetta and peshawar where the intel a/c, tankers, transports and AWACS would operate from. india would mostly not be able to launch such deep strikes so chances of encounters between IAF ac and these would be minimal. these are even out of brahmos & prithvi range, so india would need to climb the ladder to using Shourya or Agni1 to target these places, not easily entertained.
8. use one of the A90b subs and the older subs to screen karachi approaches
9. send out the other two A90b for offensive patrol to try and avoid the IN and bag some fat transports headed on Mumbai-Aden sea route. raise insurance costs for india. a single A90B could easily sink 6 container ships/tankers on a mission and return. ignore the IN and just hit the soft underbelly.
10. for morale reasons target a prominent place like jamnagar refinery with harpoon missiles from submarine or babur missile from land or ship
11. flood the field with manpower (mujahdis, razakars, tribal levies) and seek to tie down IA in heavily built up urban areas, with civilian presence....makes for good delaying tactics and if india pounds the place the media will come down hard on civilian casualties
12. ask all sleeper cells lying in cashmere to go all out for a while randomly shooting and bombing.
13. using the F-solahs at night hit some prestige targets in N and W india close to cities, so TV will show in full glory....
14. arrange for saudi flagged ships and naval units to escort tankers into karachi and other places, with protective RSAF air cover
15. ask for a loan of two RSAF E-3 to cover the coastal areas and relay info , freeing up the domestic awacs for center and north.

with all of this, last out 3 weeks and fight india to a stalemate, for which india will suffer more politically and economically than pakistan.

Singha sir you just out-thought the Pakistani establishment by a million miles...

And please stop giving them ideas. They aren't capable of such analysis and planning....also can you please put this forward to Vikas sir? I am sure he will have 15 different points as to why such a sequence of events isn't possible.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 14:12

dont underestimate them, the paki elites are nothing if not master survivalists and tactically able to adapt to fluid situations. they are born dealmakers, traders and blackmailers.

they share the same crypto-mughal DNA with that other pack of rats - the lutyens c-system elites.

neither can be wished away.

adityadange · Post by **adityadange** » 10 Apr 2015 17:24

singha, a fundamental question regarding point 1: if they dont strike first, will india ever strike?
if india never stike all mission#1,2... are useless. looking at history i really doubt there will be any war unless pak strike first.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Apr 2015 18:48

adityadange wrote:singha, a fundamental question regarding point 1: if they dont strike first, will india ever strike?
if india never stike all mission#1,2... are useless. looking at history i really doubt there will be any war unless pak strike first.

Proxy war is India's only option. Pakistani's never had the capability to keep up an overt offensive against us. We are just too big.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Apr 2015 19:07

to celebrate the 1000 hellfires and 20 Ah1z they released Zaki ur rehman lakhvi today.

sardar ke tabele mein aaj raat bahut Jashn hoga, ladki bahut jor nachhegi, nihari aur naan free milega.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 10 Apr 2015 19:26

They are going to need these things when the begin facing insurrection in multiple states. Dr. Fair is right when she says they are fighting to the end. They may have the the survival instinct, but it becomes harder and harder every time they have to pull themselves out of the mud.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 10 Apr 2015 19:49

going by the activities of the government in JK, can we really blame the Pakis for releasing Lakhvi. Not that his detention was anything but a joke, dude got married, had kids and by all reports enjoyed massive khatirdari in "jail".

On a slightly different note, I had once written about what I felt should be our strategic doctrine vis a vis the TSP. Lot of gaps in the writeup as of now but still sharing it FWIW

http://maxratul.blogspot.in/2015/01/loo ... ategy.html

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Apr 2015 23:17

ManavBH wrote:
Singha wrote:lack of knowledge has never prevented me from confidently ranting on any topic, so here is my take on the PAF/Paks war strategy.
ith all of this, last out 3 weeks and fight india to a stalemate, for which india will suffer more politically and economically than pakistan.Singha sir you just out-thought the Pakistani establishment by a million miles... And please stop giving them ideas. They aren't capable of such analysis and planning....also can you please put this forward to Vikas sir? I am sure he will have 15 different points as to why such a sequence of events isn't possible.

Last earthquake in POK was lost opportunity in acquiring big chunk of real estate there. Baki were nowhere in sight. If opportunity arise again, we should open the water taps too same time and flood Pakjabi Bhateras and make the move in regaining POK.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 11 Apr 2015 00:16

This is also why we need more mountain strike corpse like structures, not less. Pakis can not enter Yemen, but still want to throw rabid dogs across border. We need more and more with asymmetric warfare, tempered with big doses of mirth and revelry, to deal with all kind of jihadis.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 11 Apr 2015 05:52

Its just an announcement for public consumption.

Their elite units must already be on ground, its hard to believe SA troops designating targets on ground all by themself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Apr 2015 08:02

Sid wrote:Its just an announcement for public consumption.

Their elite units must already be on ground, its hard to believe SA troops designating targets on ground all by themself.

This is a fair assessment. I am sure they have instructors and volunteers there already.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Apr 2015 09:51

Prospect of loot and killing shias might find a lot of volunteers for a militia army to be shipped to yemen