General Indian Military News & Discussions

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 25 Feb 2015 15:28

Further to AI, does the IAF conduct airshows regularly? Or has it in the past? I know we're not as rich as the americans but a once-a-year 1/2 day show at one of the myriad bases across the country might be nice? Excellent PR, especially when everyone agrees that we're short of personnel.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 25 Feb 2015 22:01

My apologies - this post was meant to go with an attachment. Mods, could I have permission, please? It'll be way easier to convey the concept. Thank you.

Very random question to gurus. Would someone care to comment on this hull design I came up with? I'm no sort of marine engineer, just a fanboy who happened to be re-reading HMS Ulysses and being horrified by the way bad seas affect ships

I was trying to figure out how to get some of the anti-roll stability of a catamaran/trimaran, without losing out on the general balance of the standard monohull. I've envisioned this as two "wings" slicing into the water, one on each side, the ends below the water-line, with planes extending outward, away from the hull. The whole 'wing' could be a fully rigid structure, or with the underwater plane as an actively or passively hinged unit, which could also be used to assist in sharper turns by either resisting motion in the water or allowing it. If you're so inclined, the entire 'wing' could be lifted out of the water in a high-speed/low-drag configuration, and actively dipped back down in high seas or one at a time for fast turns.

One added advantage I'd see is that it would provide, to some extent, the tumblehome naval designers are looking for in LO designs, without giving up the more controllable V-hull. The disadvantage, of course, is an increase in beam.

I don't know whether someone's already thought of this, but I couldn't find anything like this via google, at least.

Thanks in advance.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 05 Mar 2015 09:13

Newbie question on IA/IAF doctrine and separation of roles.

This came up while reading discussions on the Indian Military Helicopters thread. Given that the 'Cold Start' doctrine possibly exists, which essentially relegates the IAF to a top-cover role for army units striking quickly into Pakistani territory (I'm guessing a very different strategy exists re China, and it'd be great if this could be explained), I had the following questions:

1) I understand the psychological aversion to playing a subordinate role to the IA, but what is the IAF's actual doctrine when it comes to war? It doesn't seem to see itself as a strategic force, with no real strategic bombers (does the SFC control conventional strategic missile-attack as well as nuclear attack?). We have a good 'strike' capability, so are we looking at a Gulf War-type period of concentrated air war before any action by IA units? Do we even have enough resources (sheer numbers of jets and munitions) to hugely degrade Pakistani defences before a land strike, or do we need both IA and IAF units working at the same time to keep the Pakistani defenders occupied simultaneously?

2) I'm guessing in the real world, the IAF would split its resources between top-cover, offensive counter-air and interdiction operations (again, not much strategic bombing), and the IA would depend on organic assets like SAMs and a light cover of fighters to guard against aerial threats. In that case, do we have the right mix of equipment from the IAF's side? Should there perhaps be aircraft designed for forward air control etc, and more aircraft under the IA's control for slightly deeper objectives while the IAF pursues goals that are somewhat deeper still? Jaguars/MiG-27s, or even a squadron of Frogfoots/A-10s dedicated to the army, or even within the army, for FAC, interdiction etc? These could even be kept in reserve, a short distance behind the lines, to supplement any sector that needed it, and tasked solely with assisting current ground offensives, rather than having to divide their time between deep strikes and interdiction.

3) What is the likely doctrine against China? Would Cold Start (or similar) apply here at all, or would this be more defensive and attrition-based? Would a war of attrition even make sense here, given their sheer numbers? I would imagine our strategy would be to try to get Japan/Taiwan/the USA involved to take pressure off our front while we try to reduce their fighting capability while staying far away from strategic strikes that could invite a nuclear response. Am I correct?

member_29004 · Post by **member_29004** » 23 Mar 2015 18:58

Hey Gents,

Been lurker here for nearly a decade. One could say BR molded me into my current world view.
Do we have small section for Make in India defense campaign. I have been thinking about getting involved with defense sector for a while, I could help the nation, do something I am passionate about and also make profit.

Is there a section where BR can help showing the right direction to people who want to be part of the defense manufacturing sector, either directly with government or part of the Supply Chain.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 23 Mar 2015 23:36

Hi Vardhank

The idea you just brought forward , is in commercial use , they are called stabalisers, They work on the bernolli effect. and they are effective @ speeds above 15-16 knots.

Most cruise ships have them. At lower speeds and during docking they can be folded.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 May 2015 21:52

Vivek and Indranil,

Could you be guides/mentors for BRF A/C design projects?

I am thinking of something small like a single seater powered by a small engine and walk the folks through what it takes to do a design.
Another is a small battery powered drone which can be made.

all the way from requirements to finished drawings!!!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 27 Jun 2015 15:57

I was looking at the rustom1 today and was thinking if an all wood/plastic plane of similar size can be built? Searched around and found that the germans tried this during WW-2 and the design when rebuilt in 2000s by NG(Grumman) had amazing stealth characteristics. Given that we have better strength composite woods and high strength plastics today, would there be any gain in making such a drone? of course, engine is a big concern but if a jet engine is chosen and the outer casing of the engine made with non-metallic materials may be it would work ?

vipinM · Post by **vipinM** » 28 Jun 2015 13:13

Hi Folks

After lurking for almost 6-7 years,i finally registered for BR forums.Reading these forum has been a daily part of my routine.
It has been a pleasure reading Doc Sahib's,Rohit,Ramana,Singha,KaranM,Vivek and many other people's posts.I also remember reading Indian Nuclear deterrence discussion forum when there was a giant hullabaloo about Indian nuclear weapons capabilities.

The amount of knowledge one gains here about Indian military capabilities is really immense.Just the other day at office,one of my colleagues was arguing that INS Arihant is complete Russian design including its reactor.Thanks to BR i could correct him that this is not the case.

Oh and about me, i work in one of India's leading ITvity companies.Though i wont be able to contribute much in military forums,i am looking forward to be a true part of BR forums.Maybe a message here and there in J&K discussion forum.

Jai Hind

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jul 2015 08:41

vardhank wrote:Newbie question on IA/IAF doctrine and separation of roles.

This came up while reading discussions on the Indian Military Helicopters thread. Given that the 'Cold Start' doctrine possibly exists, which essentially relegates the IAF to a top-cover role for army units striking quickly into Pakistani territory (I'm guessing a very different strategy exists re China, and it'd be great if this could be explained), I had the following questions:

1) I understand the psychological aversion to playing a subordinate role to the IA, but what is the IAF's actual doctrine when it comes to war? It doesn't seem to see itself as a strategic force, with no real strategic bombers (does the SFC control conventional strategic missile-attack as well as nuclear attack?). We have a good 'strike' capability, so are we looking at a Gulf War-type period of concentrated air war before any action by IA units? Do we even have enough resources (sheer numbers of jets and munitions) to hugely degrade Pakistani defences before a land strike, or do we need both IA and IAF units working at the same time to keep the Pakistani defenders occupied simultaneously?

2) I'm guessing in the real world, the IAF would split its resources between top-cover, offensive counter-air and interdiction operations (again, not much strategic bombing), and the IA would depend on organic assets like SAMs and a light cover of fighters to guard against aerial threats. In that case, do we have the right mix of equipment from the IAF's side? Should there perhaps be aircraft designed for forward air control etc, and more aircraft under the IA's control for slightly deeper objectives while the IAF pursues goals that are somewhat deeper still? Jaguars/MiG-27s, or even a squadron of Frogfoots/A-10s dedicated to the army, or even within the army, for FAC, interdiction etc? These could even be kept in reserve, a short distance behind the lines, to supplement any sector that needed it, and tasked solely with assisting current ground offensives, rather than having to divide their time between deep strikes and interdiction.

3) What is the likely doctrine against China? Would Cold Start (or similar) apply here at all, or would this be more defensive and attrition-based? Would a war of attrition even make sense here, given their sheer numbers? I would imagine our strategy would be to try to get Japan/Taiwan/the USA involved to take pressure off our front while we try to reduce their fighting capability while staying far away from strategic strikes that could invite a nuclear response. Am I correct?

This is a huge question and I have written some stuff about this on and off. Rather than searching for and linking what I have written - I suggest you equip yourself with relevant books

If you want a single book to read, try this: A fantastic must read book
https://books.google.co.in/books/about/ ... edir_esc=y

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jul 2015 08:53

GD Want you and others to read and get familiar. Will be useful when LCA and AMCA come around.

1) Comparing effectiveness of air-to-air fighters: F-86- F-18

Also covers some other planes.

2) Air-Air combat effectiveness

‎

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 09:13

May I ask a noob question (please do laugh if you like, but do respond). This query I had in mind since 1 year but couldn't ask due to possible embarrassment.

In a squadron, say 15 Su-30MKI's are lined up on Tarmac. And emergency announcement is there 'All Birds in Air'. There were say 24 pilots in the pilot room.

Question1 - How do each Pilot knows which Su-30MKI to board and fly, is each Pilot assigned to a fighter plane and Pilot knows which serial number plane to fly?

So, if all are single seaters, 15 pilot would need to know they should seen be in air and rest 9 pilots stay behind (roster somewhere?).

Question2 - Is there a way (secret, sort of confidential) the parked fighter planes are locked for start-up, I mean is it possible for any one to jump into the cockpit, turn on a key (if there is), ignition, pedal (thruster or stick whatever) & fly away (ignoring ATC for a while)?

PS - (Analogy is - In a parking lot, I know my car and I cannot get confused with other car, because I know my car number & I have remote control keys)

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Jul 2015 12:18

Bhaskar_T wrote: In a squadron, say 15 Su-30MKI's are lined up on Tarmac. And emergency announcement is there 'All Birds in Air'. There were say 24 pilots in the pilot room.

All right the questions were slightly funny.

Firstly, I will try and explain a flying base and a flying Squadron which could be a fighter squadron or not, so that you understand how it works:

An Air Force Station (AFS) may have more than 01 Flying Sqn and some ground units like Radar units, missile units wtc. IIRC, AFS Jodhpur is the biggest with some 40+ 'lodger units' including fighter sqns, helicopter units etc. The AFS is headed by an Air Officer Commanding (AOC) or a Station Commander for a smaller AFS. Under him is the Chief Operations Officer (COO) who handles all flying from the Station and coordinates with Command HQs using Base Operations. The Technical head of the Station is the Chief Engineering Officer (CEngO). The Administrative head of the Station is Chief Administrative Officer (CAdmO). Their was some move to rename Administrative duties as HR duties in the past, so things could have changed.

A Sqn of 15 / 16 aircraft or even 20 will have an authorised strength of pilots and ground crew. Commanding Officer (CO) of the Sqn (also senior most pilot) is incharge of the Pilots, technical staff (Offrs and Men), Admin Staff and Non Combat Employees. Under him he has Senior Technical Officer (STO) (incharge of Technical / Maintenance), Flight Commander (incharge of Flying Duties) (Flt Cdr) and Adjutant (Incharge of administration and discipline). In a flying Sqn, the Adjutant duty is generally given to some pilot who is unavailable for flying duties. In the IA, the Adjutant is a very important job, in the IAF less so.

The STO is located near his place of work with the Ground Crew. The Flight Commander is located near the AirCrew Room where all the pilots have to be available.

In a Sqn of 15 Su 30 aircraft, there will be a minimum of 30 pilots posted (usually more) as it is 02 pilots per aircraft. Some will be out on leave, courses or some may even be down from flying due to medical reasons. So, it is possible that for 15 multicrew aircraft there are only 24 pilots.

What is difficult to achieve even for short period is 15 serviceable aircraft out of 15. Almost never happens. Sustained 100% serviceability will earn (IMO) a Vayu Sena Medal (VM) at least for the STO, CEngO, CO, COO, Flt Cdr and even the AOC / Stn Cdr. Flying is undertaken to in a manner to ensure that scheduled maintenance is staggered and not more than 02 / 03 aircraft become due for servicing simultaneously. Plus issues of spares, etc reduce serviceability.

Now, to your point of " All Aircraft Airborne Now" announcement
- This will usually not happen because:
a) All aircraft airborne and do what? Airborne, without weapons, without any mission, making noise overhead, doing what?
b) If it is a mission, who will plan. Mission planning takes time - 02/03 hrs at least. Sometimes more than 12 hrs. Sometimes even days.
c) The STO will need time to prepare those aircraft. Having all those men available (Ground Crew shifts), to handle 15 sircraft departure is a challenge but what if the mission requires arming the aircraft, drop tanks, etc. 03 / 04 hrs will be needed, some missions may get ready sooner.

So, what all can happen:
a) For 15 aircraft to be airborne simultaneously (if serviceable) - Massive strike missions (for practice or real) with 02/ 03 , 04 aircraft package, 02 aircraft EW escort, plus CAP duties apart from ORP. ORP is the only duty which is an immediate launch, all the rest will take time.
b) 01 or 02 ORP aircraft is/ are placed, on the ready, close to the runway "dumbell" (begining of runway), pilots are located close by for immediate take off. Once the call comes, they and the assigned ground crew sprint to their respective aircraft, the pilots strap up on a primed aircraft and take off quickly within a very short time. This is also called "Scramble".

Bhaskar_T wrote: Question1 - How do each Pilot knows which Su-30MKI to board and fly, is each Pilot assigned to a fighter plane and Pilot knows which serial number plane to fly? So, if all are single seaters, 15 pilot would need to know they should seen be in air and rest 9 pilots stay behind (roster somewhere?).

Yes, there is a flying programme made. Most flying is planned. Last I heard they were trying to get the exact flying programmes ready - a week prior. Mostly, one knows at least a day prior the flying to be undertaken for the day - by whom and on which aircraft (Aircraft Tail nos. like- Call Sign XXX, Ac Tail No. I 1947). Most Sqns/ Units have a large board displaying flying roster for all to see. STO, CEngO, COO, CAdmO, Medical Officer, etc are also kept in the loop.

In air, fighters fly in formations usually, and ATC is responsible for separation and is the controlling authority. Formation leaders are responsible for formation integrity. In peace time most practice strikes are multiple way point navs culminating on a "strike" on the airfield at a pre determined time (known as TOT - Time Over Target). TOT is sacrosanct, and and usually accuracy of +/- 3 secs is demanded . In an exercise, it may involve escort packages from even other bases so the skies overhead airfield can get crowded for short instances.

The closest I have seen to your scenario is Surya Kiran (FAT) 09 aircraft formation take off and display overhead. But, these do not have "all aircraft airborne" announcement.

Bhaskar_T wrote: Question2 - Is there a way (secret, sort of confidential) the parked fighter planes are locked for start-up, I mean is it possible for any one to jump into the cockpit, turn on a key (if there is), ignition, pedal (thruster or stick whatever) & fly away (ignoring ATC for a while)?

PS - (Analogy is - In a parking lot, I know my car and I cannot get confused with other car, because I know my car number & I have remote control keys)

At least the IAF aircraft I saw or heard did not have ignition keys. Though some helicopters or transport aircraft may have main door keys. Aircraft starting sequences are detailed procedures. One needs to memorize them and know where the correct switches are. Ground Crew are required to hold the ladder, help the pilot strap up, connect / disconnect external power and marshal off the aircraft from the flight line. In the IAF at least one needs to pass a few ground tests before getting in the cockpit to fly. Also, treat the ejection seat with respect.

I think the pilot's cliche is "If some could start it for me, I could fly it"

So, no - a) you need to be trained on type and b) you need external help for starting and taxi.

Sorry for long post but I thought a detailed response is best.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 16:02

All right the questions were slightly funny. Firstly, I will try and explain a flying base and a flying Squadron which could be a fighter squadron or not, so that you understand how it works:

deejay ji/Sir - Many thanks for details reply, explaining the basic of squadron working, organisational command and answering precisely the two questions. I am overwhelmed & find myself owing you a Chivas12/18 year old. I didn't expect such a nice detailed reply (rather I thought shiv saar will come and give a nice beating). I fly (business) every month from Nigeria to Bangalore (& vice-versa) can get you almost (if not less) similar priced Chivas (thanks Duty Free) as you might get via CSD.

Apologies if I overstepped Laxman Rekha due to my offering.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 16:36

Now, to your point of " All Aircraft Airborne Now" announcement
- This will usually not happen because:
a) All aircraft airborne and do what? Airborne, without weapons, without any mission, making noise overhead, doing what?
b) If it is a mission, who will plan. Mission planning takes time - 02/03 hrs at least. Sometimes more than 12 hrs. Sometimes even days.
c) The STO will need time to prepare those aircraft. Having all those men available (Ground Crew shifts), to handle 15 sircraft departure is a challenge but what if the mission requires arming the aircraft, drop tanks, etc. 03 / 04 hrs will be needed, some missions may get ready sooner.

To avoid being sitting ducks in the below explained scenario - a surprised well thought enemy attack (And it probably happened in either 65/71). There are lot of ifs, buts, assumptions below which may not happen all at one time but am typing below just to let you know what I was thinking of (& am sure am not the first one to think about this

) The example enemy below can be Chinese but I will assume Pakistan for now.

I meant " All Aircraft Airborne Now" in an emergency situation (Pre-Wartime/surprising element of attack). Situation could be that Indian intelligence (say, from Sargodha) phones Bathinda/Sirsa/Halwara that a bunch (14?) of fidayeen F-16's just flew in air to bomb either of Bathinda/Sirsa/Halwara bases for inflicting irreparable loss of Infra (runway, fuel depo, aircraft, ammunitions depo). This also gets confirmed by ground radar stations. Approximately, a distance of ~200kms one way will probably be covered in less than 15 minutes, assuming ~800-1000km/ph F-16's loaded with A2A, A2G and fuel-drop tanks (my assumptions could be entirely wrong - am not an expert).

So, in such scenario, am not sure if IAF's operational strategy will only rely on SAM's (Akash/Barak/S-300/Bofors e.g.) and Anti-Aircraft Guns (considering 15 minutes is a short time for any fighter aircraft to be loaded with ammunition & to ask them to defend. More difficult is to ask help from a nearby base for same reasons). Obviously, as you said, what's the point of getting them air-borne (assuming we can in less than 15 minutes)?

Q3) Hence in such scenario, are there chances of IAF losing precious aircrafts (say out of 15, 10 were parked on tarmac) - Probably YES, unless they can get airborne before F-Solahs reach and safely fly away (say to Bhuj/Bareilly/Jodhpur?)
(AND not that the aircrafts under attack in the base were coincidentally parked on Tarmac but Pakistani intelligence actually confirmed Karachi/Sargodha that the Indian aircrafts were indeed on Tarmac & not in the underground bomb proof shelters).

Q4) Alternatively, are 15 minutes enough to ask the ground crew to move the 10 aircrafts to the shelters (bomb-proof one's)? - Probably NO, I don't know.

Q5) If answer to Q3 and Q4 is indeed YES and NO, then under the looming cloud of imminent surprise attack, upon an "All Aircraft Airborne Now" announcement, I thought how would the Pilots know which aircraft to fly - associated mess/panic will probably be too much to handle ? (Q5 is similar to Q1 but Q1 was under peace-time to which you answered that by roster/announcement/planning/assignment of serial numbers, the system works)

Edited later - PS - I didn't get what is ORP. 1 or 2 aircrafts can scramble but if number is 10 or 15, situation becomes critical, isn't it.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 16:45

At least the IAF aircraft I saw or heard did not have ignition keys. Though some helicopters or transport aircraft may have main door keys. Aircraft starting sequences are detailed procedures. One needs to memorize them and know where the correct switches are. Ground Crew are required to hold the ladder, help the pilot strap up, connect / disconnect external power and marshal off the aircraft from the flight line. In the IAF at least one needs to pass a few ground tests before getting in the cockpit to fly. Also, treat the ejection seat with respect.

I think the pilot's cliche is "If some could start it for me, I could fly it"

So, no - a) you need to be trained on type and b) you need external help for starting and taxi.

Q2 was more sort of if some rogue pilot (no offense to our patriots) decides to defect our aircraft to enemy, are there systems in place (such as ignition keys) which can prevent so?

So for Q2, is it almost impossible that a well trained rogue pilot (no requirement of ignition keys) can do necessary things, taxi and fly away the aircraft? Are ground crew the only barrier to prevent this?

(I recall, Lieutenant Viktor Belenko 513th Fighter Regiment, 11th Air Army, based in Chuguyevka, Primorsky Krai, a Mig-25 FoxBat pilot defected to the United States via Japan on Sept. 6, 1976, loaded with 4 AAM's, powerful Radar those times, top speed above Mach 3. KGB came to know about the defection before the launch of aircraft but failed to avoid it. Missiles were never returned to Japan/Russia although a dismantled Mig-25 was returned to Russia)

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Jul 2015 19:53

Bhaskar ji,

ORP - Operational Readiness Platform: It is a practice followed with many Air Forces, to maintain 01/ 02 aircraft or more, on the ready for quick reaction to emerging situation /s. Cold War ORPs in Europe and Diego Garcia included Nuclear armed ORPs.

A sudden enemy Air Attack from any direction (like in previous 65/71 wars) is possible. But info will come from our radars picking up hostile tracks. There are many actions set as SOP / actions to counter these.

15 mins in war time (under attack) action is adequate. The defence against such aggression will use a combination of ORP, Airfield missile defence, AA guns etc. Aircraft will be moved as per dispersal plans which could include some non armed aircraft getting airborne. Camouflage, decoys, low level balloon barrage etc, etc are possible steps - each base will have its own. Exact steps are unknown due obvious reasons.

However, in all fairness, if an enemy air raid does get through, chances of a few aircraft getting hit on ground are high. In today's scenario, cruise missile strikes instead of an aircraft based airfield strike is a possibility. Expect runway denial as a tactics, apart from targeting parked aircraft, ATC and radar stations, SAM sites etc and bombs best suited for these will be used.

Our overall, radar and anti aircraft defence set up today is far better than in '71. We have made it increasingly difficult for PAF to pull off such strikes across multiple bases.
_________________

On the question of 'Pilot Defection' - It is possible for a rogue pilot to defect. Not in the ways you were thinking but it is possible. There are problems and challenges the rogue pilot will have to overcome - One of them not getting shot by the enemy

More on this if and when we meet.

________________

The mess of Pilot Confusion on which aircraft who will fly is very easily sorted in a structured, seniority and authority based service like IAF or any Air Force.
________________
On the Question of Chivas Regal - ... When are you coming to Bangalore next ?

(Seriously, Chivas is not required, we could meet without it. Maybe, we could get others to join - maybe a Bangalore Jirga?)

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Jul 2015 22:46

Thanks Deejay once again for responses. Am always ready for BRF Bangalore meet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jul 2015 09:12

I recommend people get hold of this book and read....

Robert McShea "Test and Evaluation of Aircraft
Avionics and Weapon Systems"

very clear writing. book4you.org download sites.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Jul 2015 23:09

Funny!

Vril · Post by **Vril** » 13 Aug 2015 14:55

blast in Tianjin, China.

Can any one ID explosives/inflammable material which might have caused this.

The shockwave was massive and hit more than 10 km. there was what appeared to be a mushroom cloud afterwards.

TIA

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 26 Aug 2015 03:16

To BR Admin,

How do we get the feeds for the news links in the main site. I often see news that doesn't support our national interest. For example, there is a link today saying how indian army is not letting muslims to pray in a mosque. There were a few more reports last week. Seeing such news items in BR is a bad publicity for the forum. Can something be done about such links please?

Thank you

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 04 Sep 2015 13:13

To BR Admin,
Dear Sir,
As I am About to be Relived From The Company soon. so my login ID address will be taken back by the company .

Please Help.

how can i Move To Gmail Or Some other Domain.
Regards,
Vinod Kumar

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Sep 2015 18:04

250 NDA Cadets hospitalized from food poisoning
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities ... e-ordered/

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Sep 2015 19:11

shiv wrote:250 NDA Cadets hospitalized from food poisoning
http://indianexpress.com/article/cities ... e-ordered/

This happened in my time too... All cadets were allowed to report sick if uncomfortable after the first few cases of Food poisoning came to light. In all more than 700 cadets reported sick hoping to get a day off.

In the end less than 50 genuine cases (including yours truly) were hospitalised. I had for company the Academy Cadet Captain and some other well known names. It was in my 04th term. By evening it was clear the culprit was not the Cadet mess or the juice bar but the Cafeteria where we the 'sick' had gone and gorged on Gulab Jamuns. I had had twenty and mine was par for the course in NDA

.

We were given saline for 02 hrs; after that we were under instructions to eat boiled food only for a day but all of us quickly went and ate Poori bhujia in the MH mess. The SMO, (then) Maj Anuradha went red in the face when she came on her surprise rounds. That whole night all of 'sick' spent rolling in the mud.

Next day we were all discharged and the discharge slip read "Wasp Bite" and then we really rolled in the mud laughing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2015 08:12

deejay the twenty gulab jamuns takes me back to my college days. Active young men can eat a lot and compete with each other. I recall times when we ate 25 chapatis each and once 3 of us did 100 puris

Yecchhhh!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Sep 2015 08:45

shiv wrote:deejay the twenty gulab jamuns takes me back to my college days. Active young men can eat a lot and compete with each other. I recall times when we ate 25 chapatis each and once 3 of us did 100 puris

Yecchhhh!

Gulab Jamuns were the sweet dish at the end of a hearty meal. I shudder to think about the quantum of calorie consumption in those days!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2015 09:12

deejay wrote:
shiv wrote:deejay the twenty gulab jamuns takes me back to my college days. Active young men can eat a lot and compete with each other. I recall times when we ate 25 chapatis each and once 3 of us did 100 puris

Yecchhhh!
Gulab Jamuns were the sweet dish at the end of a hearty meal. I shudder to think about the quantum of calorie consumption in those days!

Young men (NDA/sportsmen) eat a lot but do not put on weight. Speaks volumes for the amount of energy they are capable of burning.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Sep 2015 09:24

shiv wrote:...
Young men (NDA/sportsmen) eat a lot but do not put on weight. Speaks volumes for the amount of energy they are capable of burning.

I am 183 cms, weighed 57 kgs when I joined NDA and remained at 57-kgs till I was commissioned at 23 yrs of age! And they made me fight at under 54kgs in boxing. Dropping those 03 kilos from my skeletal structure was quite a task

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2015 09:27

deejay wrote:
shiv wrote:...
Young men (NDA/sportsmen) eat a lot but do not put on weight. Speaks volumes for the amount of energy they are capable of burning.
I am 183 cms, weighed 57 kgs when I joined NDA and remained at 57-kgs till I was commissioned at 23 yrs of age! And they made me fight at under 54kgs in boxing. Dropping those 03 kilos from my skeletal structure was quite a task

Wow! I suspect that at 183 cm and 57 kg you would have to shed muscle mass, not fat, to drop 3 kg

For some senior BRFites who are ex IITians - they used to shed weight by getting jaundice and typhoid.

For me in medical college, none of these issues was a problem - the belly appears in the 40s and 50s and does not go.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Sep 2015 09:32

shiv wrote:...
Wow! I suspect that at 183 cm and 57 kg you would have to shed muscle mass, not fat, to drop 3 kg

Boxing was the bane of me. I quit trying by my third term. Actually, I was underweight for my age and height but my other stats on medical records were excellent. We would always blame the poor quality of weighing machine for finding faults in our weight. Quite a few in NDA were like me.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Sep 2015 19:15

deejay wrote:
shiv wrote:...
Wow! I suspect that at 183 cm and 57 kg you would have to shed muscle mass, not fat, to drop 3 kg
Boxing was the bane of me. I quit trying by my third term. Actually, I was underweight for my age and height but my other stats on medical records were excellent. We would always blame the poor quality of weighing machine for finding faults in our weight. Quite a few in NDA were like me.

Of course I can't compare with NDA standards but my school (also in Poona) used to have huge a PT area and two ex army PT instructors who imagined that they were training recruits for the Maratha Light Infantry regiment. My own boxing career ended when I went into the ring against a short guy thinking that I had it made. I did not see where the punch that whopped me on the right side of my face came from. The bout, and my boxing days ended there and then.

One PT instructor was ex MLIR. the other was a sardar who had fought in Italy in WW2.

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 19 Sep 2015 21:43

Gurus,

I have a question regarding Pakistan's threat of using TNW against an Indian Armoured Thrust. The population density of Pakjab near the Indian border is pretty high and doing this here is shear madness. Is this threat made to limit our options ? and avoid the large Desert Sector?

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 23 Sep 2015 18:54

in this announcement regarding the ATV-D01 test, why is the Mach number and pressure written in this manner

Mach number (6 + 0.5) and dynamic pressure (80 + 35 kPa)

http://www.isro.gov.in/update/03-mar-20 ... ing-rocket

why wasn't it expressed as Mach 6.5 & 115 kPa?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Sep 2015 08:10

Abhay_S wrote:Gurus,

I have a question regarding Pakistan's threat of using TNW against an Indian Armoured Thrust. The population density of Pakjab near the Indian border is pretty high and doing this here is shear madness. Is this threat made to limit our options ? and avoid the large Desert Sector?

Try this
http://www.epw.in/system/files/pdf/2015 ... issile.pdf

member_29001 · Post by **member_29001** » 27 Sep 2015 19:29

Found an interesting entry on Bomber Harris (WW2).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthu ... st_Baronet

Google search will give more links.
His tactics may be useful against ISIS and assorted ISs.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 28 Sep 2015 15:40

my simple question to all masterjis

what is the guarantee that pirangi maal suppliers do not do a Volkswagen kind of thing to the toys supplied to India.
.
Are we having capability to test each and everything.
.

M Joshi · Post by **M Joshi** » 03 Oct 2015 14:13

Guys, is there a thread in Military forum to track all the procurement order by Armed forces? If not I was thinking we may add one. It can be a no-discussion thread like the Achievement thread in Strat forum & we can track all the defence procurement category wise (for example, Naval, Misslies, Army, Air Force, Para Forces, itiyadi). All orders given to Indian PSUs & Pvt. companies can also be seen & we can see the progress of Indian companies in Indian Defence procurement. An admin can edit & fill entries on the 1st post of the thread as the procurement progresses & other members can contribute with new posts. I'm not able to find such portal anywhere on the net & not just on BR. BR should take initiative on this, & I request a learned member to go ahead have the 1st post. If the admin so requires, we may all together pitch in & make a format for the 1st post which will have consolidated data.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2015 08:57

GD for you

http://www.allworldwars.com/Proceedings ... are.html#4

my idol Rudel. I have his autograph!!

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 12 Dec 2015 14:21

I am searching for Indo russia cooperation on engine technology for fighter jet. Most google links point to licensed manufacturing for Mig/Sukhoi, or MTA(though not a fighter). Nothing on similar to what we are trying under DTTI. I am trying to understand why India did not try Russian engine technology or tried to get a similar agreement with Russia in the first place. Wouldnt it have been much easier and safer to go with Russia?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 15 Dec 2015 20:53

Dunno where to put items like this:
http://thelinkpaper.ca/?p=51637

CHANDIGARH – Forty-four years after he spearheaded the Army’s charge to Dacca (now Dhaka) during the 1971 Bangladesh Campaign, the country’s one of the most highly decorated soldiers marched into oblivion. Brig Sant Singh, twice decorated with the Maha Vir Chakra (MVC), the second highest award for gallantry, passed away here last night.

He was 94 and had been ailing for some time. He is survived by his daughter Satinder Kaur who is married to a brigadier. Hailing from Panjgrain village near Kotkapura, he had settled down in Chandigarh after retirement. The cremation is scheduled to take place tomorrow.

Belonging to the Sikh Light Infantry, he was among the only six individuals to have been awarded the Maha Vir Chakra twice. With his demise only one such recipient now remains alive.

During the 1971 Indo-Pak war, he was commanding the FJ sector in the eastern theatre and his formation achieved spectacular results, advancing 38 miles almost on foot, to secure Mymensingh and Madhopur in eight days. During the advance, in spite of stiff opposition from the enemy, he cleared heavily defended positions at several places, personally leading the troops. His advance paved the way for Indian troops to enter Dacca (now Dhaka) and he was among the first officers to enter the headquarters of the East Pakistan Commander, Lt Gen AAK Niazi. For his action, he was awarded the MVC. A framed-picture of Niazi and a desktop time-piece, which he seized from Niazi’s office, was his war trophies displayed in his home.

Six years earlier, in November 1965, while commanding a Sikh Light infantry battalion, then Lt Col Sant Singh had evicted Pakistani troops from OP Hill in Jammu and Kashmir, that had encroached on the Indian territory after the ceasefire. Despite difficult terrain and mine fields, the feature was wrestled back after a bitter hand-to-hand fight. For displayed conspicuous gallantry and leadership in the face of heavy fire, he had received his first MVC.