Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 21:22

Perhaps the only sliver of a silver lining is that from now on the IN and MOD will have to take appropriate measures learning the lessons of this tragedy. First,Bombay will have to be decongested,Karwar and Rambilli will have to be accelerated,and when warships and subs are being armed,better precautions will have to be taken so that collateral damage does not occur.in the event of an accident.lastly,and most importantly,the crisis with our dwindling sub fleet must take priority over all others even over IAC-2,whatever.The entire sub strength of now 9 Kilos have to be replaced within the next 10-15 years.The 4 German U-boats too need replacing.This requires at least one to two new diesel AIP sub being inducted every year and two N-boats,SSBNs and SSGNs every three years.the minimum sub strength required is 36,24 conventional AIP boats and 12 nuclear ones.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Aug 2013 21:27

Amyrao wrote:I wrote a long post on security lapses but last minute cancelled it as admins may not lke it.
Imagine flats over looking the dock Adarsh location.

Lot of suspecious characters loiter around ordinance depots all over the contonments in India which have been encroached by civillians.....

Sad day and I have to grab some medication OTC...

It is just as well that you did not post that. Now is not the time for rampant speculation. Let the Navy do its job and report the cause.

habal · Post by **habal** » 14 Aug 2013 21:29

Also the whole exercise of sending boats over to Russia to be serviced, and then leisurely getting them serviced and sending them back is like 2 steps forward and 4 steps backward, a self-defeating exercise, if we are to maintain a big fleet and aspire to being a blue-water navy. This is a good time as none for setting up these lines in India and manufacturing spares inhouse instead of sending them over to Russian docks for overhaul and maintenance. India also needs to set up more docks along the coast which can help us create capacity in ship-building.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Aug 2013 21:47

Alert Mumbai fire officer helps save 2nd submarine from disaster.

A second submarine berthed near INS Sindhurakshak submarine that exploded and sank was saved from a possible disaster thanks to an alert senior Mumbai Fire Brigade officer who was near the mishap spot.

The blast shortly after midnight was heard ashore by Deputy Chief Fire Officer P S Rahandale who was on leave.Rahandale, who showed a presence of mind, said today he saw a huge explosion on a ship near Gateway of India while returning home after attending a private engagement.

The officer said he immediately alerted his superiors about the tall flames that was leaping from the ill-fated vessel.

"....I saw a huge explosion on a ship and because of my experience whatever I saw I thought it is going to be a big one and because of that maximum resources were immediately deployed," Rahandale told TV channels.

Rahandale said that as he reached closer to the mishap spot he saw one sub was engulfed in fire while another sub which was about 8 to 15 feet away was "partially" on fire.Rahandale said his team of firemen and Navy's Fire brigade personnel immediately "attacked" the flames that were near the second sub.

From the dozens of fire tenders a wall of high pressure stream of water was built between INS Sindhurakshak and the second sub with the help of eight to nine water cannons."Because of timely intervention of my team, my resources along with Navy resources we could save that second submarine," Rahandale said.

Naval Chief Admiral D K Joshi said the flames that leapt from the sinking vessel touched the outer casing of the second sub--also a Sindhughosh-class submarine like INS Sindhurakshak.There was no damage to the second sub, he said, adding the vessel was quickly taken to safety.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 21:50

Exactly.Why have we been sending the Kilos to Russia? Because we earlier failed with a refit of a Kilo at Vizag.Unless pvt. yards like L&T and Pipapav are given a share of the cake,the DPSU yards will be unable to deliver on time as we are seeing now.There was a table posted of the warships under construction,their planned blg. time,actual time taken/taking and initial costs and final costs.Since L&T is hugely assisting in the N-sub building,they should be allowed to also build/repair subs.If we want to emulate Japan and SoKo ,then the pvt. yards must be flush with orders so that they can build cost-effectively and on time.The DPSUs need competition,not maintaining their monopoly.

Thank the dear Lord for the second sub being saved.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 14 Aug 2013 21:52

I am still not able to fathom that we lost a submarine. Above all, the argument that the weapons were not handled correctly is completely baseless.

Its got to do something back in Russia when it was being upgraded. Some system/weapon must not haven been tested properly before deployment or proper training to handle the new upgrades was not provided to the submariners.

On the other hand the timing of this tragedy is giving wind to speculations of sabotage which is possible but highly unlikely.

Any update on submariners stuck in the ill-fated submarine?

Lets just hope we tend to gain more positives from this incident.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 22:52

via mp.net

titash · Post by **titash** » 14 Aug 2013 22:52

Horrible news. My heartfelt condolences to the bereaved families.

Unfortunately this is one of the realities of the armed forces profession. The proximity to high explosive ordnance, fuel, and exposure to the elements mean that the next accident is always round the corner. Extreme safety measures need to be taken, and heavy investment needs to be made in personnel training and redundancy in sensors/fault-detection capabilities

At the very least, a focused effort needs to be made to de-congest Mumbai and disperse the fleet to the purpose built harbor in Karwar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2013 23:01

we need to gather enough data so that we can prevent this happen again.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 14 Aug 2013 23:05

gather data and act on it

Data is omni present

Action (Data + Meta data = Information -->action) is omni potent.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Aug 2013 23:24

Do not what caused this tragic incidence, but if it is a hydrogen build up, then has this threat not been there for some time now? IF so, why is venting it an issue in 2013ish? Data is there, why not enough action? Heard there are fans, etc, but I would expect a more guaranteed method. Anyone has an idea?

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 14 Aug 2013 23:48

Hydrogen build ruled out by C in C of INS in the press conference. Remember seeing in Das boot? or is it in U571 a sailor having a canary bird next to his bunker bed for similar reasons

habal · Post by **habal** » 15 Aug 2013 00:19

Also some google about how China launched a missile from just across the California coast undetected. they seem to have some new capabilities.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Aug 2013 01:31

habal wrote:Also some google about how China launched a missile from just across the California coast undetected. they seem to have some new capabilities.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AMdHBgHtNE

Wrong thread and wrong timing. That video is from 2010.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2013 01:41

I think we should give this speculation a rest. Let the COI make its inquiry. Major loss of life and a submarine requires it.

Meantime take a look at who the press is asking idiot questions and folks are responding.

Hindu:

If it was asbotage only an insider could have done it

I will make my remarks as to why informed people should not feed trolls.

“If it was sabotage, only an insider could have done it”

S. Anandan

The fully-armed submarine was to go on a long patrol

While the jury is out on what really triggered the crippling blasts that wrecked the naval submarine INS Sindhurakshak in Mumbai on Tuesday night, chances of a sabotage causing it are giving the Navy the jitters.

Given that the fully-armed submarine was at the high-security Naval Dockyard in preparation for a long patrol on Wednesday evening, only an insider could have done some foul play, if that was the case, indicate Navy sources.

The severity of the twin explosions that gutted the forward area of the kilo-class submarine, which was handed over to India after a $ 150-million upgrade in January this year, points to torpedo burst, as the flame bore an unmistakable orange hue, sources say.

Hydrogen the trigger?

Live ammunition was being loaded on the boat till 10.30 p.m. on Tuesday in view of the patrol on Wednesday. “There must have been frenetic activity going on. Hydrogen released while charging its 800 kg batteries could have caused the first explosion, which would have set off the torpedo burst,” said an officer.

While the Navy Chief Admiral D.K. Joshi did not fully rule out sabotage, seasoned submariners like Vice-Admiral (retd) K.N. Sushil, former chief of the Southern Naval Command, consider the scenario “very very dangerous.”

“I don’t even want to think of such a possibility,” said Mr. Sushil. It would mean someone had penetrated the crew, which was highly unlikely.

He said if there was just a hydrogen blast, it would not have been this disastrous and damaging. But if that were the case, it somehow caused the oxygen torpedoes [torpedoes having oxygen compressed to 200 bars instead of compressed air as fuel oxidizer in its propulsion system] to explode. It could also be conjectured that electric short circuit or something caused the oxygen to blow out. Shockingly, the sequence of events hardly explained anything, he told The Hindu.

The missile warhead couldn’t have gone off as missiles “are loaded into the torpedo tubes in nitrogen-pressured containers.” To a question on chances of sabotage, he said someone adept at handling torpedoes executing it could not be ruled out.

Vice-Admiral (retd) A.K. Singh, who commanded nuclear submarine INS Chakra and headed the Eastern Naval Command, told The Hindu that there could be two surmises. “Submarine batteries give out hydrogen while charging. There are devices to neutralise hydrogen thus released, as its concentration above 4 per cent can set off a blast. Two decks above this is the weapon compartment and the fire caused the warheads to explode. Another possibility is that something went terribly wrong while arming the boat,” he said.

Former Vice-Chief of the Navy Vice-Admiral (retd) Raman P. Suthan termed ‘highly unlikely’ the sabotage theory, citing that access to submarines was highly restricted.

{Exactly!!!! Besides it casts aspersions on the naval personnel of which we had no such experience. All the evidence so far, the sudden bluish flash, the yellow orange flame all point to a fire. All the components to cause it are there : hydrogen from charging batteries venting, location of the blasts in forward compartment where torpedoes are stored and the rush to finish the stores loading before proceeding on patrol next day. And these type of load outs were done before leading to familiarity. A perfect reciepe for a "normal" accident.}

After the COI is over will these honorable men eat their hats on the sabotage theory?
Submarine crew is one of the most strongly vetted personnel in any Navy. As such to claim sabotage and that too by internal boat personnel is atrosious.

One should not let the mind wander so freely on suggestion.

Looks like the Vice Chief was the only one on guard and the other VADM did not take the bait.

Also don't missile warheads have arming and safing systems which ensure they don't go off during load outs.
So they can be ruled out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2013 03:05

A fifth of the sub fleet out of commission

http://m.indianexpress.com/news/navy-lo ... n/1155661/

....The loss of the INS Sindhurakshak — there is no official word yet but sources say that the twin explosions will result in a total write-off for the vessel — is a crippling blow for the Indian Navy which already stacks up poorly when it comes to underwater capabilities.

Not only was the vessel the Navy’s most modern submarine, having returned just three months back after extensive refit and modernisation in Russia, its loss means that 20 per cent of India’s underwater fleet is now inoperable. The remaining are at the very end of their service lives and have been given extensions to ensure they remain operational.

While the authorised strength of the Navy is 24 conventional submarines, the actual strength has been steadily decreasing over the past few years with the decommissioning of the older Foxtrot class of Russian vessels.

According to the current record books, India has only two classes of submarines — four older generation HDW 209 Shishumar class and 10 Russian origin Kilo Sindhughosh class submarines which the Navy considers as its cutting-edge fleet. Even this on-paper strength is not adequate to protect India’s 7,500 km coastline, forget about operations in faraway waters.

Of the 10 Kilo class submarines, two are currently undergoing a refit that could stretch over years. The INS Sindhukirti has been undergoing a refit at the Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) since 2003, with many in the Navy giving up hope that it will ever sail again. The newest of the Kilo class, the Sindhushastra, too is up for refit at HSL.

The refitted Sindhurakshak — its Rs 815-crore modernisation plan gave it the latest land and ship attack missiles, a new sonar system and a Porpoise radio locater to detect enemy warships — was to render service for another 15 years.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 15 Aug 2013 03:09

Russia distances itself from India submarine disaster.

Russia on Wednesday sought to guard its reputation as a supplier of military hardware by distancing itself from a deadly accident on an Indian Navy submarine, the INS Sindhurakshak, that its manufacturers had built and recently repaired.

The 2,300-tonne diesel-powered Sindhurakshak exploded and caught fire while docked in Mumbai early Wednesday on the eve of India’s Independence Day.
The fully-loaded boat partially sank with 18 seamen on board. India’s defence minister said a still-unknown number of personnel had “lost their lives in service of the country”.

The incident deals a powerful blow not only to India’s burgeoning naval ambitions but also to Russia’s own flagging military prestige.

Moscow remains New Delhi’s biggest defence partner and is keen to preserve a market it has nurtured with great care since Soviet times.
Official statistics show that eight of the 11 Project 877 submarines such as the INS Sindhurakshak Russia has built for export since the 1980s have been delivered to India.

“I do not believe that this incident will have a negative impact on Russia’s military cooperation with India,” the state-run RIA Novosti news agency quoted Moscow’s Global Arms Trade Centre expert Igor Korotchenko as saying.But Indian officials have voiced growing displeasure with their old partner’s service— particularly concerning the cost-overruns and delays involved in the refit of a Russian aircraft carrier that now bears the name INS Vikramaditya.

Analysts believe that India is forced to continue purchasing Russian military parts because it still operates so many Soviet-era warplanes and vessels.
But New Delhi has also sought to expand its military trade ties with Washington in the past decade after remaining for so long under Moscow’s care.

The US-based Center for Strategic and International Studies estimates that cumulative defence sales between New Delhi and Washington had grown “from virtually zero” 10 years ago to more than $8 billion today.

That trend has unnerved Russian officials who have already suffered humiliations from two deadly post-Soviet submarine disasters and a raft of other military and space setbacks.The Kursk nuclear submarine tragedy claimed 118 lives when it sank in August 2008 while the Nerpa sub—eventually commissioned by India—killed 20 Russian sailors when it caught fire while conducting exercises in November 2008.

The INS Sindhurakshak was under a Russian warranty until January 2014.

The Russian-built boat—commissioned in 1997—underwent a refit lasting more than two years after it had caught fire in 2010 and had only left its Barents Sea repair dock at the end of January.

Russian officials were quick to report that India had voiced no complaints after receiving the submarine in April.“There have been no claims or technical complaints,” the United Shipbuilding Corp.’s spokesman Alexei Kravchenko told Russian state television.The Russian firm that refitted the submarine also stressed that the craft was fully operational when returned to India.

A spokesman for the Russian Zvyozdochka ship repair company told RIA Novosti that “certain issues” had been raised when the INS Sindhurakshak was inspected by experts at the Severodvinsk port on the Barents Sea.The unnamed spokesman did not give further details about the nature of the issues but said they were part of the “normal working process”.

Russia’s Interfax news agency also carried a report citing an unnamed “military-diplomatic source” who claimed that the INS Sindhurakshak could have been the target of a terror plot.

The official speculated that the boat could not have suffered an accident while in its dock because most of its main systems would have been probably switched off. However no further evidence was given to back up the claim

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2013 03:23

X-post...
Looks like AKAji is upto his neck in irresponsibility.

Scuttling the future

http://newsinsight.net/Scuttlingthefutu ... age=page-1

The loss of INS Sindhurakshak to accident or sabotage reflects in a sense the sinking fortunes of the country under ten years of United Progressive Alliance rule. With the likely death of the 18 officers and men on board the ill-fated submarine, India can scarcely be in celebratory humour at tomorrow’s Independence Day anniversary, and to the naval tragedy must be joined the earlier murder of five Indian soldiers by Pakistani troops in Poonch. Never has the nation felt as demoralized, humiliated and hopeless as now, and Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh squarely must take blame for heaving India to the bottom.

As the rare “silent service”, the submarine arm constitutes the country’s last line of defence. It is obviously the most critical leg of the deterrent nuclear triad, but even in a conventional role, its contribution to strategic defence is unequalled. Since the end of the Falklands War in 1982 and especially with the termination of the Cold War, forward-looking navies have begun to cut back on their surface assets, and whilst the age of giant aircraft carriers hasn’t ended, practically only America can afford them on a mammoth scale, and even that is a declining trend. As the world becomes multipolar and the oceans teem with diverse rivalries, the investments in stealth and submarines have become significant, and China is rapidly headed down that course. In exercises conducted over many years by the United States navy, its prized carriers have been “sunk” at an alarmingly high rate, and if you believe it, rather counter-intuitively by diesel electric submarines, such as the Sindhurakshak that went down today. In navies across the world, submariners are considered amongst the best fighting crew, a class apart, and it is a roaring shame that so many of them perished in yesterday’s tragedy. Apart from the considerable naval setback, the loss of Sindhurakshak generally would mark a terrible nadir for India.

This writer and this magazine have relentlessly focussed on the collapsed political-economy under Sonia/ Manmohan Singh/ Palaniappan Chidambaram, but it is time to address the disastrous tenure of Arackaparambil Kurien Antony as the defence minister. Because the defence ministry provides a perfect cover to loot the country but is at the same time not the ideal place for an individual’s power projection, it holds limited appeal for ambitious politicians. After all the decades, there has never been a better defence minister than Yashwantrao Balwantrao Chavan who rebuilt the Indian Army from the ashes of the 1962 war to a fine force. Jagjivan Ram comes lower in the order and George Fernandes made a difference but his tenure was clouded by scandals. And the less said about Sharad Pawar and Mulayam Singh Yadav, the better.

Anthony, on the other hand, may be personally honest (at least he doesn’t attend the lavish farmhouse parties of arms dealers in South Delhi with barely clad call girls in attendance), but that has not prevented defence corruption from peaking under his watch, with the latest Comptroller and Auditor General’s report on the AgustaWestland helicopter deal creating a fresh stink. Anthony has no interest in the defence portfolio and is as keen to replace the prime minister as to return to the politics of home state Kerala, tracking which regularly and unfailingly consumes the first half of his workday. Officials say he does not read files as a rule. He does not keep abreast of operational matters and defence management under him has reduced to a cipher. As for defence-preparedness, don’t ask. Anthony may not be personally responsible for the destruction of INS Sindhurakshak but the ad hoc culture he has bred and his contempt and disdain for military matters has brought decisive slippages in the armed forces. Of the three service chiefs, only Devendra Kumar Joshi of the navy gets a decent rating, but he would have to labour to salvage his reputation after the submarine tragedy. The army chief, Bikram Singh, is most poorly ranked, and the negligence that caused the carnage in Poonch is a clear reflection of his deficient generalship. It hurts to write this.

But the principal culprit is Manmohan Singh. For reasons of delicacy, it was not earlier revealed that his adamancy to visit his native place, Gah, led to the minimization of Pakistan’s perfidy in Poonch by Anthony. Anthony’s statement was cleared by the so-called Pakistan/ China expert, the national security advisor, Shiv Shankar Menon. “Clear” is a euphemism because he changed the substance to let off the Pakistan army. Could a NSA maul the defence minister’s statement on his own? Plainly, he got directions, and it must have come from the prime minister’s office. But the PMO denies any role in Anthony’s controversial statement. Obviously, the PMO is lying. PMO officials now say that Manmohan Singh was determined to visit Pakistan in October or November after the conference with Nawaz Sharief in New York, and since this would perhaps be his last trip as prime minister, he wasn’t willing to forgo it for the Poonch killings. Anthony’s statement was amended for this reason. It has since been downhill for India on the national security side. Pakistani attacks on the Line of Control have only gotten worse. Will the Chinese stand quiet?

If neither the prime minister nor the defence minister cares for the sacrifices of the forces and adheres to a gross and insensitive business-as-usual approach, what message does it transmit down the officer corps? And this cynical decline and widespread demoralization of the forces have picked fierce pace in the ten years of Sonia and Manmohan Singh’s government. The iron discipline of the forces is crumbling. The generals are battling one another. Corruption and nepotism have flared. The Intelligence Bureau recently busted a party attended by arms sellers and air force officers but no one was penalized. And even to be promoted from lieutenant-colonel to colonel now needs political connections. During the Uttarakhand disaster, some officers tried to gain proximity with Rahul Gandhi. Where is the armed forces headed? Whereabouts is the country going?

With the loss of INS Sindhurakshak, you don’t have to look far to guess or know. The ignominy of losing territory is only seconded by a sunken flagship or a downed submarine. We just shot ourselves in the foot in full view of the world.

member_27444 · Post by **member_27444** » 15 Aug 2013 04:23

could it be a tarpedo like Kursk?

On the morning of 12 August 2000, as part of a naval exercise, Kursk was to fire two dummy torpedoes at Kirov-class battlecruiser Pyotr Velikiy, the flagship of the Northern Fleet. At 11:29 local time (07:29:50 UTC),[1] a 65-76 "Kit" torpedo was loaded into Kursk's number 4 torpedo tube. Because of a leaking weld in the torpedo's fuel system, high test peroxide, a form of highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide used as an oxidiser for the torpedo's engine, escaped into the torpedo casing where it catalytically decomposed on the metals and oxides present there, yielding steam and oxygen. The resulting overpressure ruptured the kerosene fuel tank, causing an explosion that registered as a weak seismic signature on detectors hundreds of kilometres away.[4] A similar incident was responsible for the loss of HMS Sidon in 1955.[citation needed]

The property of hydrogen peroxide to decompose exothermally in the presence of certain catalytically acting impurities, with the formation of oxygen gas and water is very important for handling during storage as well as during chemical reaction. Decomposition is indicated by the development of gas and—with only slight removal of heat—by rise in temperature.

The stability of hydrogen peroxide solutions is influenced primarily by the temperature, the pH value, and above all by the presence of impurities with a decomposing effect.

An increase in the temperature promotes the decomposition as well as a higher pH value. For optimum stability, the pH range of pure H2O2 is below 4.5. Above pH 5, the decomposition increases sharply. Therefore, commercial solutions are generally adjusted to a pH value below 5.

The shelf life of hydrogen peroxide is negatively affected by impurities of every type even when some of these impurities are present in very low concentrations (ppm quantities).

Type 53 torpedoFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Type 53 is the common name for a family of 53 cm torpedoes manufactured in Russia, starting with the 53-27 torpedo and continuing to the modern UGST.

With the exception of the UGST which uses Mark 48 style monopropellants, Soviet 53 cm torpedoes generally use electric power, or kerosene mixed with various oxidizers for propulsion. Russian torpedoes are often named descriptively for their characteristics - examples include "acoustic homing" or "electric torpedo", all in Russian acronyms.

...
The 53-65 torpedo family are Russian made, wake-homing torpedoes designed to destroy surface ships. The 53-65 became operational in 1965, while the 53-65K and 53-65M both became operational in 1969. The 53-65KE is an exported version. China received an unknown number of 53-65KE torpedoes from Russia after purchasing 4 Kilo class submarines in the 1990s.The Type 53 torpedo is carried by almost all Russian submarines, including the Kilo class and the Akula class.

53-65 Specifications[edit source | edit]Primary function: ASUW & ASW torpedo
Power plant:
53-65 and 53-65M: Kerosene-hydrogen peroxide turbine
53-65K: Kerosene-oxygen turbine Length: 23.6 ft (7.2 m)
Weight: 4,563 lb–4,630 lb (2,070 kg–2,300 kg)
Diameter: 21 in (533 mm)

Weapon systems of the Indian NavyFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[Torpedoes[edit]
Whitehead A244-S anti-submarine torpedo
APR-3E torpedo
SET-65E/53-65KE torpedo
Type 53-65 torpedo (passive wake homing)
TEST 71/76 anti-submarine, active & passive homing torpedo
AEG-SUT Mod-1 wire-guided, active/passive homing torpedo
Shyena
Torpedo Advanced Light

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2013 04:24

i don't want to hear a chinese part in our supplies from russia. this was the case earlier for gorshkov failure.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2013 04:37

AmyRao and Saik, Why dont you guys look at the Youtube on previous page and run it in slow motion.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1496155

You can see the flame sequence. First a small yellow colored flame, then a blue-white flash and then a yellow explosion.
I know you all took chem lab. What metals/non-metals give blue-white flash!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2013 05:47

saw it... yes, I concur it is a blue-white flash, and then the yellow.. not sure, if the blue-white start was the actual start of the explosion point at which the video was captured [in the sense, it did not start with something calm and then an explosion to capture the first instance].

arsenic, lead, magnesium, potassium, ... yes hydrogen.

now that means, the hydrogen build up was not sucked off and reached quite a high level - also, the spark should have started from batteries as well. now, q: if the hydrogen build up happens, then O2 should be down, and suffocation should have been felt ..no?

now how much H2 is needed for this kind of a blast?

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 15 Aug 2013 06:15

Folks: Very likely the videos are showing secondary explosions. Unlikely that cameras were trained on the sub while it exploded or that the primary explosion was even visible outside.

From Telegraph:
"that the explosion in the INS Sindhurakshak occurred when a detonator of a newly synergised Klub-S missile was being fitted."
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130815/j ... gwtH2R4Yzx

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Aug 2013 09:25

tsarkar wrote:oxygen / hydrogen peroxide.

Not sure where people get information from. All Soviet torpedoes in service use silver zinc batteries, that is also used by DRDO Varunastra.

warhead sympathetic detonationModern warheads are quite insensetive, with sophisticated fusing, otherwise the heat from burning rocket motor behind will set them off.

Large flashes of light are typically due to gas / liquid inflamables.[/quote]
Not true. Most high performance modern torpedoes tend to be thermal ones, including Varunastra , I think. Batteries still don't have anywhere near the energy density to be fully competitive.
We need to junk all the old oxygen torpedoes ( which goes back to the Japanese WWII ones which gave them significant range advantage over everyone else) / peroxide ones and go the Otto a fuel way. Atleast import the Russian Otto fuel powered versions on an emergency basis.

The sub seems to have been charged 3 days earlier. So hydrogen during battery charge can be ruled out per the Navy head I think.

wig · Post by **wig** » 15 Aug 2013 10:10

Iran seizes Indian ship carrying oil from Iraq

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 836778.cms

In a development with serious international ramifications, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) has detained an Indian ship carrying oil in the Persian Gulf. Sources said the ship, named MT Desh Shanti, was on its way to India from Iraq when it was detained by the IRGC.

The ship is owned by the Shipping Corporation of India. The development has stunned authorities here as it was transporting oil from Iraq, a country which has overtaken Iran as the second largest supplier of crude to India after Saudi Arabia.

The government-owned ship was detained in international waters in the Persian Gulf before being coerced into entering Iranian waters. Late Wednesday evening, the ship was on its way to the Bandar Abbas port, guided by the IRGC.

Sources said Iran claimed to have detained the ship because of environmental concerns. Tehran authorities conveyed to India that the ship was polluting Iranian waters, but this is being seen as flimsy reasoning.

The development has shocked the Indian establishment, which on Wednesday evening was still trying to gather information on the incident. Although India has taken steps to reduce its crude imports from Iran, Tehran had never hinted that it could resort to such drastic actions.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 Aug 2013 10:15

In Past whenever the western border went bit hot,'
We had Godra
We had Amunition Dump Fire
And now we have Lost Sub in Blast.

Conincident or some one dont want us to punish Pakhananiwas.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Aug 2013 10:30

There was reportedly "frenetic" activity in loading the sub with weaponry shortly before it was due to sail out to Vizag.Batteries were charged 3 days earlier.One initial TV report said that a torpedo/missile "hit a wall" while being loaded which supposedly set off the explosions.Another by-stander said that he heard a loud "'whoosh" sound before the explosions.It could've been the missile igniting.This circumstantial evidence indicates that something went wrong with the loading externally or internally.Anyway,the BOI will determine the actual cause and we will have to be patient and wait.

The sub had been extensively refitted and modernised to fire Klub missiles.It had a safety inspection in April and was reportedly in excellent shape.It had performed over "1000" diving hours after its return from Russia.The IN has operated 10 of the class for several decades.The most serious accidents involving the type earlier have been a battery fire aboard the same sub a few years ago and a few collisions.Subs being very tough have not been lost in these collisions.

Now why were these subs returned to Russia for refits? Because our desi efforts at HSL VIzag failed.The Sindhukirti (?) has been langusihing for over 7 years without being completed,say some reports.MDL,the only other yard capable of building subs has been overloaded with the Scorpene project,which it has proved to be beyond its touted capabilities and is 4 years overdue now also costing almost as much as an N-boat.
The sub crisis is entirely due to political apathy,MOD indifference and the DM's renowned indecision.The IN have been pleading for over a decade+ for the second line to be finalised,but who cares in the South Block establishment? The mandarins of the PMO are all excited about a "peace in our time" both with Pak and China.The evidence on the contrary is the exact opposite.China has now intruded 30KM into Ar.Pradesh and is sitting tight refusing to budge.The Pakis attack us on and across the border at will,beheading,ambushing and infiltrating into J&K and the hinterland using their local assassins of the IM,founded by them,for internal terror.Let's keep the Naxals and Moaists out of the count,we'll limit ourselves to external threats only.

What's the latest? Iran has intercepted an Indian tanker with oil from Iraq! Firing going on again in Poonch,one Indian soldier injured...and you have Salman-the-Cursed in last night's interview with the TOI network,that this dispensation will never give up its "peace" with Pak! This is the 66th yr. of Independence.It is significant that every 33 years,we face a mil. crisis.In the first yr.,47/48,Pak invaded Kashmir and is still squatting in POK.33 years later in '71 we had the Bangladesh War.Now 33 years later,we have both the Chinese invading our territory,refusing to leave, and the continuous Pakis barbarity for all to see.Coupled with the weakest ever political leadership of all time,matching that of Shah Alam (Bahadur Shah at least lent his leadership to the first Freedom Struggle),whose empire extended from "Dilli to Palam".The empire of our current "imperator" ,Man Mohan Singh,can barely stretch from "Race Course Rd. to the Inner Ring"!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Aug 2013 11:20

vina wrote:
tsarkar wrote:...use silver zinc batteries, that is also used by DRDO Varunastra...
Not true. Most high performance modern torpedoes tend to be thermal ones, including Varunastra , I think.

In DRDO's own words, Varunastra uses silver zinc batteries. http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/feb07/feb07.pdf

250 kW Silver Oxide-Zinc Battery...The battery, which is used for heavyweight torpedo propulsion…

Composite structural shell development ... (battery shell for Varunastra, and Taksha torpedoes)

What Varunastra seeks to do is develop a single torpedo for Russian launch systems for multiple roles. More explained below.

SNaik wrote:I didn't mean hydrogen, just oxygen fueled. In 2011 it was reported that India was offered an upgraded version of 53-65KE, thus my question whether all of them are grounded…Any moving object in the water leaves wake, did you mean trail? Soviets managed to make first trail-less non-electric torps back in 1950s, 53-65K is definitely trail-less, as it was adopted in 1965.

Indian submarine launched torpedoes are either German for Type 209/1500, or Soviet for EKM submarines. German torpedoes are battery powered & simultaneously anti ship & anti submarine. Soviet torpedoes in service are TEST-71 series, battery powered, submarine launched, anti-submarine, SET-65E battery powered, ship & submarine launched, anti-submarine and 53-65KE Kerosene Oxygen turbine powered, ship & submarine launched, anti-ship. This has a gyro wake homing system, immune to sonar countermeasures.

Submarines are slower than surface ships & much slower than helicopters or MPA. Torpedoes have lower ranges compared to missiles. Hence submarines are vulnerable to counterattack if detected.

So, against ships, either they fire anti-ship missiles at long range, or prefer to attack by stealth. PNS Hangor attacked INS Kukhri at twilight/dusk (19:57pm) when tracking the torpedoes back to source was difficult. Anti ship torpedo run close to the surface, hence wake can be discerned by ships/helicopters & tracked back.

Any thermal/combusting engine will emit effluents that can be detected close to surface, unlike electric batteries. The reason US uses OTTO fuel is for enhanced speed/range. US also believes the homing capability of the torpedo is so high that there will be no survivors to react.

I believe same torpedo was fired by an EKM submarine against decommissioned Udaygiri in 2008.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2013 13:13

everyone is pouncing on a weakly led indian govt. iran detaining one of our ships from international water would invite a strong slap from another power of india's size but what to do - we are sikular onlee and cannot do much except wail here.

the govt will not do anything, I hope atleast the sailors are not mistreated and are realeased soon.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 15 Aug 2013 13:19

tsarkar wrote: Indian submarine launched torpedoes are either German for Type 209/1500, or Soviet for EKM submarines. German torpedoes are battery powered & simultaneously anti ship & anti submarine. Soviet torpedoes in service are TEST-71 series, battery powered, submarine launched, anti-submarine, SET-65E battery powered, ship & submarine launched, anti-submarine and 53-65KE Kerosene Oxygen turbine powered, ship & submarine launched, anti-ship. This has a gyro wake homing system, immune to sonar countermeasures.

Submarines are slower than surface ships & much slower than helicopters or MPA. Torpedoes have lower ranges compared to missiles. Hence submarines are vulnerable to counterattack if detected.

So, against ships, either they fire anti-ship missiles at long range, or prefer to attack by stealth. PNS Hangor attacked INS Kukhri at twilight/dusk (19:57pm) when tracking the torpedoes back to source was difficult. Anti ship torpedo run close to the surface, hence wake can be discerned by ships/helicopters & tracked back.

Any thermal/combusting engine will emit effluents that can be detected close to surface, unlike electric batteries. The reason US uses OTTO fuel is for enhanced speed/range. US also believes the homing capability of the torpedo is so high that there will be no survivors to react.

I believe same torpedo was fired by an EKM submarine against decommissioned Udaygiri in 2008.

Thermal engine in 53-65KE uses following fuel components: Oxygen, Sea water, Kerosene. There is no visible trail of discharge of the used components. What equipment are you talking about to detect the effluents?

The wake from a torpedo will be visible only during the terminal phase of the attack, as the torpedo dives after the launch and reaches the attack depth gradually, in vertical increments.

The wake-homing system on 53-65KE requires frequent crossing of the wake, setting the torpedo on a zig-zag approach to the attacked ship from the aft sector, gradually shortening the zig-zag legs. By the time the torpedo is close enough for visual detection, the ship has no time left to locate the sub and retaliate. The torpedo is not a straight-runner, it will take quite some time to trace the sub.

Torpedoes have shorter range than missile, still 53-65KE has a range of around 20km.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2013 14:12

can a sub of such size be bodily lifted by a floating crane ?
even if the sub is sunk in 30feet water it seems impossible to reach in there in time.

such vessels do exist to execute tandem lifts but we dont seem to have a single one
http://hmc.heerema.com/content/fleet/
mainly they are used in offshore oil/gas industry. so 2000t is not a issue with these puppies.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Aug 2013 14:38

there are several working floating cranes within mumbai harbour

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 15 Aug 2013 15:03

So where is sub now? is it recovered, what about the bodies of sailors?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Aug 2013 15:35

Project 877 Paltus Kilo-class Submarine

http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20130814 ... arine.html
http://www.itar-tass.com/en/g44/4427.html

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Aug 2013 16:02

Because this incident happened in the harbour, we should be able to find out exactly what happened and incorporate measures in our SOP for preventing in future. Even if we have to get such lifting cranes from Singapore, we have to work on a war footing.

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Aug 2013 16:54

[/quote]

wig wrote:Iran seizes Indian ship carrying oil from Iraq

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 836778.cms
In a development with serious international ramifications, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) has detained an Indian ship carrying oil in the Persian Gulf. Sources said the ship, named MT Desh Shanti, was on its way to India from Iraq when it was detained by the IRGC.

The ship is owned by the Shipping Corporation of India. The development has stunned authorities here as it was transporting oil from Iraq, a country which has overtaken Iran as the second largest supplier of crude to India after Saudi Arabia.

The government-owned ship was detained in international waters in the Persian Gulf before being coerced into entering Iranian waters. Late Wednesday evening, the ship was on its way to the Bandar Abbas port, guided by the IRGC.

Sources said Iran claimed to have detained the ship because of environmental concerns. Tehran authorities conveyed to India that the ship was polluting Iranian waters, but this is being seen as flimsy reasoning.

The development has shocked the Indian establishment, which on Wednesday evening was still trying to gather information on the incident. Although India has taken steps to reduce its crude imports from Iran, Tehran had never hinted that it could resort to such drastic actions.

that is only expected. The revolutionary guards or whatever is showing some miff on part of Iran for the big loss of a major customer.Dont think it ll happen again.These things are insured so problem that issue. But yes loss of face for indian govt.

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Aug 2013 16:58

ramana wrote:X-post...
Looks like AKAji is upto his neck in irresponsibility.

Scuttling the future

http://newsinsight.net/Scuttlingthefutu ... age=page-1

The loss of INS Sindhurakshak to accident or sabotage reflects in a sense the sinking fortunes of the country under ten years of United Progressive Alliance rule. With the likely death of the 18 officers and men on board the ill-fated submarine, India can scarcely be in celebratory humour at tomorrow’s Independence Day anniversary, and to the naval tragedy must be joined the earlier murder of five Indian soldiers by Pakistani troops in Poonch. Never has the nation felt as demoralized, humiliated and hopeless as now, and Sonia Gandhi and Manmohan Singh squarely must take blame for heaving India to the bottom.

As the rare “silent service”, the submarine arm constitutes the country’s last line of defence. It is obviously the most critical leg of the deterrent nuclear triad, but even in a conventional role, its contribution to strategic defence is unequalled. Since the end of the Falklands War in 1982 and especially with the termination of the Cold War, forward-looking navies have begun to cut back on their surface assets, and whilst the age of giant aircraft carriers hasn’t ended, practically only America can afford them on a mammoth scale, and even that is a declining trend. As the world becomes multipolar and the oceans teem with diverse rivalries, the investments in stealth and submarines have become significant, and China is rapidly headed down that course. In exercises conducted over many years by the United States navy, its prized carriers have been “sunk” at an alarmingly high rate, and if you believe it, rather counter-intuitively by diesel electric submarines, such as the Sindhurakshak that went down today. In navies across the world, submariners are considered amongst the best fighting crew, a class apart, and it is a roaring shame that so many of them perished in yesterday’s tragedy. Apart from the considerable naval setback, the loss of Sindhurakshak generally would mark a terrible nadir for India.

This writer and this magazine have relentlessly focussed on the collapsed political-economy under Sonia/ Manmohan Singh/ Palaniappan Chidambaram, but it is time to address the disastrous tenure of Arackaparambil Kurien Antony as the defence minister. Because the defence ministry provides a perfect cover to loot the country but is at the same time not the ideal place for an individual’s power projection, it holds limited appeal for ambitious politicians. After all the decades, there has never been a better defence minister than Yashwantrao Balwantrao Chavan who rebuilt the Indian Army from the ashes of the 1962 war to a fine force. Jagjivan Ram comes lower in the order and George Fernandes made a difference but his tenure was clouded by scandals. And the less said about Sharad Pawar and Mulayam Singh Yadav, the better.

Anthony, on the other hand, may be personally honest (at least he doesn’t attend the lavish farmhouse parties of arms dealers in South Delhi with barely clad call girls in attendance), but that has not prevented defence corruption from peaking under his watch, with the latest Comptroller and Auditor General’s report on the AgustaWestland helicopter deal creating a fresh stink. Anthony has no interest in the defence portfolio and is as keen to replace the prime minister as to return to the politics of home state Kerala, tracking which regularly and unfailingly consumes the first half of his workday. Officials say he does not read files as a rule. He does not keep abreast of operational matters and defence management under him has reduced to a cipher. As for defence-preparedness, don’t ask. Anthony may not be personally responsible for the destruction of INS Sindhurakshak but the ad hoc culture he has bred and his contempt and disdain for military matters has brought decisive slippages in the armed forces. Of the three service chiefs, only Devendra Kumar Joshi of the navy gets a decent rating, but he would have to labour to salvage his reputation after the submarine tragedy. The army chief, Bikram Singh, is most poorly ranked, and the negligence that caused the carnage in Poonch is a clear reflection of his deficient generalship. It hurts to write this.

But the principal culprit is Manmohan Singh. For reasons of delicacy, it was not earlier revealed that his adamancy to visit his native place, Gah, led to the minimization of Pakistan’s perfidy in Poonch by Anthony. Anthony’s statement was cleared by the so-called Pakistan/ China expert, the national security advisor, Shiv Shankar Menon. “Clear” is a euphemism because he changed the substance to let off the Pakistan army. Could a NSA maul the defence minister’s statement on his own? Plainly, he got directions, and it must have come from the prime minister’s office. But the PMO denies any role in Anthony’s controversial statement. Obviously, the PMO is lying. PMO officials now say that Manmohan Singh was determined to visit Pakistan in October or November after the conference with Nawaz Sharief in New York, and since this would perhaps be his last trip as prime minister, he wasn’t willing to forgo it for the Poonch killings. Anthony’s statement was amended for this reason. It has since been downhill for India on the national security side. Pakistani attacks on the Line of Control have only gotten worse. Will the Chinese stand quiet?

If neither the prime minister nor the defence minister cares for the sacrifices of the forces and adheres to a gross and insensitive business-as-usual approach, what message does it transmit down the officer corps? And this cynical decline and widespread demoralization of the forces have picked fierce pace in the ten years of Sonia and Manmohan Singh’s government. The iron discipline of the forces is crumbling. The generals are battling one another. Corruption and nepotism have flared. The Intelligence Bureau recently busted a party attended by arms sellers and air force officers but no one was penalized. And even to be promoted from lieutenant-colonel to colonel now needs political connections. During the Uttarakhand disaster, some officers tried to gain proximity with Rahul Gandhi. Where is the armed forces headed? Whereabouts is the country going?

With the loss of INS Sindhurakshak, you don’t have to look far to guess or know. The ignominy of losing territory is only seconded by a sunken flagship or a downed submarine. We just shot ourselves in the foot in full view of the world.

Idiotic article targeting one of the better ministers. Cleaning up the defence industry is just like the fabled aegian stables.No fan of antony but this guy makes it a point to know what he is doing.He does read and is competent compared to so many others who dont care.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 15 Aug 2013 17:33

We may not like AKA but much much better that the MMS and rubbish we have in the UPA1 or 2

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2013 17:37

Singha wrote:can a sub of such size be bodily lifted by a floating crane ?
even if the sub is sunk in 30feet water it seems impossible to reach in there in time.

such vessels do exist to execute tandem lifts but we dont seem to have a single one
http://hmc.heerema.com/content/fleet/
mainly they are used in offshore oil/gas industry. so 2000t is not a issue with these puppies.

dragging is a possibility... but at shore, we definitely need some ramps that gets hooked on to some geared pulley-chain system driven by some heavy pull mechanism.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 15 Aug 2013 17:51

how was the russian nuke sub lifted out of deep sea by the CIA?