Re: Indian Naval Discussion

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 14 Aug 2013 11:52

Till MOD wakes up and does something about falling numbers of Sub, i just hope they can place orders for more P8Is.
This is the best stop gap measure till we get any new subs.

IMO this does look more of a sabotage.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Aug 2013 11:57

The sub is gone , has sank to the bottom , really sad and pray for the crew

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 14 Aug 2013 12:00

very sad indeed. RIP to the personnel who breathed their last.

Singha wrote:Rus is already building some Kilo 636 for vietnam I think. we could just order a couple more off that line. I dont think anyone is keen on increasing scorpene order unless we get a feel for the first couple.

fact that Sindhurakshak arrived in Mumbai only a few months back after extensive refit, overhaul and upgrade, raises lot of questions regards russian safety standards. while it is not uncommon for these events (even if rare) to occur, that the russian subs suffer more on this account going by history only emphasises the point. IMO it will be difficult for IN to go for more russian subs.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Aug 2013 12:01

18 are missing , means feared dead

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Aug 2013 12:07

Sad news..i visited Sindhurakshak in Goa, 2004! Hope they can rescue those alive.

Aaryan · Post by **Aaryan** » 14 Aug 2013 12:10

I really hope that the news of death of sailors is not true.. At least not all 18. Hope few( Most) survived.. Really sad incident..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 12:11

the sub has settled on the bottom in shallow water of dockside. means there is no external fire. if divers can open the escape hatches from outside they could check....but chances are low I would imagine. most of the sub would already be flooded through hull breaches caused by the explosion.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Aug 2013 12:14

Very unfortunate incident. Precious lives being lost. May their souls rest in peace.

Too much of a coincidence for this to happen so soon after Arihant and Vikrant news last few days.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Aug 2013 12:16

There were 18 who were working on the sub , loading the club , the explosion set off a secondary massive explosion which sank the sub , i dont think the crew had enough time to escape. Wonder whether the crew made a mistake off loading or whether the clubs where at fault

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Aug 2013 12:18

Singha wrote:the sub has settled on the bottom in shallow water of dockside. means there is no external fire. if divers can open the escape hatches from outside they could check....but chances are low I would imagine. most of the sub would already be flooded through hull breaches caused by the explosion.

If the Times NOW story of the flames shooting out of the conning tower is true, then the prognosis is grim. The only chance was for all the hatches and bulkheads to have been secured. But with it being on the quayside, the chances of that are remote. It was not dived / in battle stations to be in that mode. The blast would have rippled through from end to end of the sub and a 500kg warhead like a Klub and Torpedoes exploding would have ripped into shreds and mangled the majority of the fore end of the sub. The only hope is if there were any people in the rear behind secured bulkheads.

What a tragedy.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 14 Aug 2013 12:20

Tragic news

I hope this provides a catalyst both for a SubSafe like IN program, as well as a renewed push to move away from these ageing imported boats to Arihant derivative SSNs and SSBNs to arm the IN.

member_24146 · Post by **member_24146** » 14 Aug 2013 12:27

Looks like tragic accident but I hope Sabotage angle is not ignored in inquiry.

Salute to you brave hearts.

every indian is proud of you guys.

Note: Image is from public domain.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 14 Aug 2013 12:27

I personally want to consider it as national tragedy and we should not do any kind of celebration on our independence day..... JMPO

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 12:34

Its tragic for IN to loose crew in the manner they did and my thoughts and heart are with the families.

Lets not speculate on the cause of this tragedy , I know in the world of Breaking News all news channel would like to speculate on what caused the tragedy. IN has initiated a Board of Enquiry on this accident and we would know all.

This Independence Day would be a sad one and we need to keep it low in respect for the sailors lost in this accident.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 14 Aug 2013 12:36

Whether it was an accident, or sabotage - this is what happens when we are led by a listless, spineless, clerical puppet. The only vision for our PM is to follow orders to make it easy for the "yuvraj" to succeed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 12:44

^^ Would people stop bringing tangent like Yuvrag and Spineless puppet etc etc , We dont need political discussion strong or spineless.

Alteast lets have respect for the dead Officers and Sailors and keep tangent , speculations out of this thread.

Any news on INS Sindhuratna , I hope they manage to pull the sub away to safety in time.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 14 Aug 2013 12:54

Deleted

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 13:01

Keep your head cool and its a request to keep tanget off atleast in due respect to the sailors we have lost .....I am no big shot mod ...just requesting everybody.

INS Sindhuratna too damaged the extent remains unknown
http://www.newsco.me/content/go/story?c ... ews=144775

Second submarine, INS Sindhuratna also damaged in explosion The explosion and fire aboard the INS Sindhurakshak has also damaged another submarine that was berthed next to the ill fated vessel at the Mumbai naval dockyard.

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 14 Aug 2013 13:05

A really sad day for all. My condolences to the families of the deceased. Praying that that we can save as many submariners as possible.

Some Tweets are reporting that Navy divers are unable to open the emergency hatches. This was a few hours ago, I really hope things have changed.

Dumb f$#@ Hindustan Times has started a poll on Twitter: Does the fire on submarine INS Sindhurakshak reflect poorly on the Indian Navy?

Another journalist has some more insights to share - What if this was a nuclear submarine. Hope the Arihant comes with enough fire safety measures.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Aug 2013 13:12

Video here

Fire, explosion followed by a larger explosion.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 13:20

Seems like Secondary Explosion or Sympathetic Detonation as they call it.

If Sindhurakshak was being prepared for a mission then each Klub carries 400 to 200 kg of explosive depending on Klub version and Torpedoes of Kilo are electric/thermal type which carry 80 - 200 kg depending on the torpedo type. Even the smallest of the torpedo on Kilo is good enough to bring down frigate size ship in single shot.

Very fatal for the submarine crew within the confined space of a submarine

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 Aug 2013 13:25

2 other submarines damaged along with INS Sindhurakshak: Sources

all 3 were fully loaded

habal · Post by **habal** » 14 Aug 2013 13:38

IN must investigate into 'nano-threats' and take preventive measures. Diesel subs with high dock time may be particularly vulnerable.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 13:40

the blast might have deformed the hull slightly and hence prevented the opening of hatches.

one similar incident of the past has been the soviet era barents sea fleet dockside explosion...in late 1980s. I am unable to find details online anymore but entire docks and piers and 100s of missiles blew up in that one.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2013 13:49

If as some reports are saying that there is still smoke emanating from the sub,then all warships and subs within the dockyard should be moved out for safety as if there are still any unexploded missiles and torpedoes ,they will be highly unstable after the explosions.

From a fire officer,the second sub was also on fire but doused.It could probably have been burning fuel,etc on the hull.There will also be debris around,The clearing up op will be laborious,esp. as one will not immediately know what is below water.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/mumbai-fire-of ... 21805.html

Mumbai fire officer helped prevent another naval disaster
IANS India Private Limited – 1 hour 30 minutes ago

Mumbai, Aug 14 (IANS) The alertness and presence of mind shown by a top Mumbai Fire Brigade officer probably helped avert a second major disaster in the naval dockyard where the INS Sindhurakshak submarine sank after being rocked by an explosion followed by a fire here Wednesday.

The blast was heard ashore by Deputy Chief Fire Officer P.S. Rahandale who was on leave and attending a private engagement near the Gateway of India promenade.

He immediately alerted his superiors as well as the Fire Brigade and other emergency services to rush to the scene of the tragedy and immediately render assistance.

"When I heard the huge explosion on the promenade, I realized that this was something major and I started for the disaster site. When I reached there, the scene was one of utter devastation," Rahandale told IANS at 3 a.m. Wednesday.

Tall flames were leaping from the newly refurbished and armed INS Sindhurakshak, making it difficult for the rescue teams to even venture close to the spot to render assistance and battle the conflagration, he said.

At that time, he noticed another submarine berthed barely five-six metres away from INS Sindhurakshak which was breathing fire in all directions.

Realising the danger from the leaping flames, Rahandale alerted his fire-figthers and those from the Indian Navy and Mumbai Port Trust to make attempts and save the neighbouring submarine.

"From the fire tenders, we built a wall of water-jets between INS Sindhurakshak and the other vessel nearby, thereby giving a safe window to sail it to a safe distance," Rahandale said.

Though the fire on INS Sindhurakshak was brought under control and prevented from spreading or damaging other naval fixed and floating assets in the vicinity, the vessel sank in the shallow waters around dawn Wednesday.

There are concerns about at least 18 sailors who were aboard the vessel.

A team of Indian Navy divers has been deployed since morning in an effort to rescue some of their colleagues feared trapped inside the sunk vessel.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi will take stock of the situation even as a Board of Inquiry has been ordered into the incident.

Shortly after midnight, a huge explosion accompanied by a fire rocked INS Sindhurakshak which was docked in the high security Naval dockyard early Wednesday.

Many sailors on board the submarine reportedly jumped off to safety.

The cause of the explosion and blaze, as well as the extent of damage to the submarine and naval properties, is still not known.

This catastrophe will definitely spur the GOI/MOD to accelerate the completion of stage2 and beyond of the Karwar naval base,as the risk of accident in a highly congested Bombay is just too great.

One report said that a loud "whoosh" had been heard before the explosion,which if correct,tends to support the theory that a missile being loaded ignited which then set off the weaponry in the forward section.This also what has been said allegedly by the In in first reports that the explosion took place while weaponry/missiles were being loaded.

siddharth · Post by **siddharth** » 14 Aug 2013 13:56

vina · Post by **vina** » 14 Aug 2013 13:57

one similar incident of the past has been the soviet era barents sea fleet dockside explosion...in late 1980s. I am unable to find details online anymore but entire docks and piers and 100s of missiles blew up in that one

Ok. Time India junked the Soviet era Oxygen / Hydrogen peroxide based torpedoes and missiles and went to far safer Otto Fuel based types. Get the Varunastra HWT torpedo into service ASAP!

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Aug 2013 14:02

Condolences to those ! How much damage was done to the other two subs ? It could be disastrous for the operational readiness of IN .. if 3 subs are damaged. Reminds me how the IN s loss of two antisub aircraft not long ago... Sabotage planned like an accident ?! and it is rather easy too to those who know how and when.As i understand the loading of missiles is a pretty sensitive affair under stringent precautions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 14:02

imagine magazine full of Shtil SAMs cooking off and arcing out all over the sky over south mumbai with 50kg warheads . not pretty .

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 14 Aug 2013 14:03

There was a prior fire/ explosion in Sindhurakshak a few years ago caused by leakage from a battery. 1 person was killed in that.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Aug 2013 14:09

kit wrote:Condolences to those ! How much damage was done to the other two subs ? It could be disastrous for the operational readiness of IN .. if 3 subs are damaged. Reminds me how the IN s loss of two antisub aircraft not long ago... Sabotage planned like an accident ?!

IIRC, Russia provided 2 Il-38s to compensate for the loss few years back. Wonder if something similar would be done now.

Anyways, all said and done, the people lost can never be recovered. Sad day indeed and RIP to brave IN souls.

ssaravanan · Post by **ssaravanan** » 14 Aug 2013 14:15

It is a tragic day for the Indian Navy. Hope the news about the death of the sailors is false. If not Rest In Peace Sirs. The reason for the fire and the explosion should be thoroughly investigated to find out the root cause so that in future such accidents do not occur again.

Ordering new Kilo submarines from Russia may not be an ideal solution in the short term. Even if a new one is ordered today it may take another three to four years for the submarine to be delivered. Instead our focus on the short term should be to strengthen the ASW tools and training by ordering more P8Is.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 14 Aug 2013 14:17

Here is an COI statement of HMS sidon which sank in similar circumstances in 1955.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Sidon_%28P259%29

A Court of Inquiry cleared anyone aboard Sidon for the loss of the boat. The direct cause of the accident was determined to have been malfunctioning of the "Fancy" torpedo. A torpedo being readied for the morning test shot had begun a "hot-run" - its engine had started while it was still inside the submarine and was over-speeding, creating very high pressures in its fuel system. The "Fancy" torpedo used high test peroxide (HTP) as an oxidizer. When an oxidizer line burst, HTP sprayed onto the copper fittings inside the torpedo, decomposing into oxygen and steam. The torpedo's warhead did not detonate, but its hull burst violently, rupturing the torpedo tube and causing the flooding that destroyed the boat. The torpedo programme was terminated and the torpedoes taken out of use by 1959.[3]

Seems hydrogen peroxide based torpedo propulsion is very outdated.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Aug 2013 14:20

INS Sindhurakshak was fine after refit: Russian firm

The Russian firm that refitted the submarine INS Sindhurakshak which exploded and sank in a Mumbai dock with 18 sailors on board said on Wednesday the craft had been fully operational when returned to India in January.

A spokesman for the Russian Zvyozdochka ship repair company told RIA Novosti that "certain concerns" were raised when the Russian-made INS Sindhurakshak was inspected by experts at the Severonisk port on the Barents Sea.But he said India raised no objections about the state of the diesel-powered vessel when it was received from Russia.

"We signed a contract for a light overhaul and modernisation in June 2010, and completed (the refit) in January 2013," the unidentified Zvyozdochka spokesman told RIA Novosti.

"During the repairs, we fitted a new Club rocket complex and a number of foreign systems on the ship, including Indian ones."

The spokesman said these included updates to the submarine's navigation and communication systems as well as an overhaul of its power generator.

The INS Sindhurakshak is still covered by a Russian warranty and eight Zvyozdochka employees were currently in the Mumbai port where the vessel exploded on Wednesday early morning.

"We still have no information about what really happened there," the Zvyozdochka spokesman said.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 14:26

Singha wrote:the blast might have deformed the hull slightly and hence prevented the opening of hatches.

one similar incident of the past has been the soviet era barents sea fleet dockside explosion...in late 1980s. I am unable to find details online anymore but entire docks and piers and 100s of missiles blew up in that one.

Do you mean the explosion of missile depot in May, 1984? That was a few kilometers from Severomorsk naval base and they were really lucky that the fire was extinguished before the nukes went off (also stockpiled at the same depot).

The blast on Kursk deformed the hatches as well, but that caused a problem for the DSRVs to dock, the divers were able to pry them open.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2013 14:37

thanks Snaik, given the year and place am able to find it now
some sources alleged americans had paid off some "dissidents" in the navy to trigger that one.

http://redbannernorthernfleet.blogspot. ... f-day.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/11/world ... pling.html

around a 1000 heavy missiles exploded over 5 days.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 14:40

vina wrote:
one similar incident of the past has been the soviet era barents sea fleet dockside explosion...in late 1980s. I am unable to find details online anymore but entire docks and piers and 100s of missiles blew up in that one
Ok. Time India junked the Soviet era Oxygen / Hydrogen peroxide based torpedoes and missiles and went to far safer Otto Fuel based types. Get the Varunastra HWT torpedo into service ASAP!

Club missile (if that's the cause, of course) has nothing to do with oxygen/hydrogen peroxide.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 14 Aug 2013 14:42

Very sad incident.. May the martyrs return to serve the mother asap. India has to hold on and build up for next decade. I wish her a safe passage in coming decade.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 14 Aug 2013 14:48

Singha wrote:thanks Snaik, given the year and place am able to find it now
some sources alleged americans had paid off some "dissidents" in the navy to trigger that one.

http://redbannernorthernfleet.blogspot. ... f-day.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/11/world ... pling.html

around a 1000 heavy missiles exploded over 5 days.

Well, the official version was "cigarette stub"

And just two casualties. Could have been much worse, keeping in mind that about 50% of the missiles, torps and mines of the Northern Fleet were destroyed.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 14 Aug 2013 14:49