Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Feb 2015 07:05

For me so far, its the folding blades of the LUH. Directly navy, coastguard applications if air force, army want foreign maal.

Now where is the photo gallery, kweschens of LUH representative, and the information board? Chop, chop, people. There are folks refreshing this thread here for them!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Feb 2015 07:33

if its something like super tucano I can think of following roles:
http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... o-A-29.jpg
1) anti helicopter patrol armed with AA11 missiles LOBL using the missile seeker
2) battlefield tactical radio jamming , ARM attacks under divisional commander and NGARM
3) night time strike using Helinas and a flir pod centerline
4) as a shooter supplement and supporting element to the platforms with better sensors like apaches and LCH..they can work in a swarm
5) recce platform (remember the german friesler storch? and the bartania Lysander? - commando comic vets surely will

)
6) artillery spotting / FAC role

it will however need the ability to operate from north sikkim and ladakh with all it implies about hot n high, cold soak startup, cabin heating, obogs etc.

the army can get its own "air force" on the sly via this route even if they lost out on the apaches

not the Warthog for sure but a start...journey to everest starts with single step

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Feb 2015 08:22

^^^ Why?

It is this jugaad approch that leads to 12 apache and 6 Mi 26, and 6 whatever those twin rotor things are.

This isnt an attack aircraft, dont shoe horn it beyond limited COIN against maoists in the plains. Domestic air coverage in India is zilch except for UAVs. And there will never be enough of those imported. This gives you a pilot base, and a thousand utility roles. Establishes GA properly. And it is a decent trainer for navy and coast guard and army and NDA and ....

Yet, all people can think of is 116 light armed squadron of the IA. Next there will be a fight on whether it should be called the eagle or the cheel or the sulfakta.

Cant this be just the first mass produced instructional/utility craft? The yak-52 of India?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Feb 2015 08:55

more scenario's,

With 6 hr endurance they could be made to 'herd' suspicious vessels with the the threat of disabling the boat's props using nano-torpedos which are about the size of a hellfire missile or Durandels. These nano-torps (google anti-torpedo torpedo) could be aerial launched. It took about 11hrs for the CG vessel to close in on one vessel and in the meantime the 2nd suspicious vessel got spooked, and then Dorniers are relatively high value when facing a manpad threat. Supply the same to the Viets.

In a war once the SEAD/DEAD phase is over, the manpad limited AD environment can be swarmed with these carrying AAMs so missile launches (leakers essentially) can be intercepted in their boost phase. Afg. has no real AD and missile launches from their territory, given the strategic depth talk, that vast airspace needs to be covered by a swarm as well needing STOL performance in remote areas.

when needing in swarm numbers on a 24/7 basis for a two week period atleast, making U(C)AVs out of these planes is a must.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Feb 2015 09:12

Shreeman wrote: Indranil,

The LCA for navy wants auto-pitch, auto-throttle. Clearly, automation is being brought in ADA/HAL designs. I did not accuse HTT40 of having it. That was not the intent.

Floats are easily integrated into anything that flies. I have seen every GA aircraft carry an accessory of this sort. The response was to the naval surveillance argument/single engine.

I was NOT referring to the presentation in particular. You are referring only to the presentation. Two different things.

I would like something capable of STOL, and floats. This fits most everything. There is a need. In the thousands. In GA, and in LE.

HTT32 was well supported, and never gained CAS/COIN teeth, I dont even want to go there.

Hope this resolves the disagreement.

First, a correction.

Actually, every Airvans does not come with a float as an accessory. Infact they have started the certification process on the Airvan8 only recently. You can see the struts for the floats are very different from those on the conventional landing gears.

Secondly, an opinion.

Let's not confuse what we want from this plane. We want to change an acrobatic military trainer to armed reconnaissance plane. We need more protection, more internal fuel, more payload and less aerobatic capability. So modify the cockpit, and flight critical parts protection. Remove the second seat or convert it into an observation station. Add more internal fuel capacity by adding extra fairings at the wing root/tip. There is no requirement for wet hardpoints if there is sufficient internal fuel carrying capability (aka the Su-30s). 6 hours of endurance is a lot. The crew would be fatigued in 6 hours. All the hardpoints should be free for weapons carriage. House the gun in the fuselage or wing roots and not under-slung pods (gives it more strength and accuracy). With 6 hours of endurance and rough airfield handling capability this is already a great capability.

There is no point of adding floats which decrease payload, decrease range and time at station, decrease maneuverability, increase area to shoot at. A sea plane is a different requirement. Let us not mix and match. If there is truly a requirement for seaplanes for observations, then we can always get the converted Airvans/228s.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Feb 2015 10:06

I will step out of the role debate. My vote is for high-volume applications. A single engine operating costs can be as low 10-100 dollars wet per hour.

Now, why is the mahindra November registered?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Feb 2015 15:26

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 298984.cms
HAL hands over BrahMos missile integrated Su-30 to IAF

BENGALURU: HAL today handed over the first supersonic cruise missile BrahMos integrated Su-30 fighters to the Indian Air Force, making the aircraft a "very lethal" weapon delivery platform.

"Su-30 has become a very lethal weapon delivery platform with the successful integration of Brahmos supersonic cruise missile," HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told reporters.

HAL has completed Brahmos integration with all the analysis being done by its internal design team, Raju said before the handing over at "Aero India 2015" air show, now on at the IAF air base at Yelahanka on the city outskirts.

Raju said HAL has provided a cost effective indigenous solution to BAPL ( BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited).

"This is a proud moment for HAL.The successful completion of the first Su-30 aircraft integrated with BrahMos missile shows the synergy between DRDO, HAL and IAF. We are hopeful of rolling out the second aircraft in a record time", he said at the event.

The Flight Clearance Certificate was handed over by Dr K Tamilmani,Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Director General (Aeronautics), to Air Marshal S B P Sinha, Deputy Chief of Air Staff. The Aircraft Acceptance Certificate was handed over by A M Raja Kannu, DG, (Aeronautical Quality Assurance) to Air Marshal Sukhchain Singh.

HAL said it took up the programme as "an indigenous challenge" at its Nasik division in 2010 and overcame several difficulties due to limited design data of Su-30 MKI. It received approval in January 2011 and order for integration was obtained from BAPL in January 2014.

BrahMos missile, an India-Russia joint venture, is a two-stage supersonic cruise missile with a 290-km range for destroying high value and strategic installation.

Speaking to reporters earlier, Raju also said HAL had handed over last month the first overhauled Su-30 MKI aircraft to IAF from its newly set up Nashik facility made with an investment of over Rs 2,000 crore.

With this facility, HAL has developed capacities and capabilities to support Su-30 fleet for next 30 to 40 years, Raju said. This is only one of its kind facility in the world and has significant export prospect since nearly 10 countries operate Su-30 fleet, he added.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Feb 2015 19:02

Our UAVs on display were so badly finished and crude design wise,that they looked as if they had come out of Jurassic Park! There were a host of UAV designs inside in the pavilions from various manufacturers.DRones are the flavour of the day.

Nevertheless,one gleaned some interesting info about our AEW aircraft on the EMB platform. The AESA radar has a range of 200km,"brochure",but the RCS detection mentioned to me far better than what was on the display. There was also a model of an Airbus widebody with a radome top.When asked whether this was an intended programme,there was a guarded answer. Perhaps the platform hasn't been decided as of now,but a bigger/better platform than the EMB is certainly in the thinking.

At the AMCA display there was a video clip/simulation of the design.Though the engines are not spaced apart,but there seems to be an internal bay forward of the engines in the fuselage,poss. through "S" trunking of the intakes. The grainy clip showed 2 AAMs and about 6 smaller munitions. No size indicated,but the weapons bay cannot run the full length of the fuselage and no indication of weaponry types possible mentioned.

A model of the IAC-1 also on display,but it seems to be an old ,dated one when compared with some pics floating around,showing only the NLCA aboard with small sized aircraft lifts,v.unlikely .

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Feb 2015 11:27

Indian Special Mission Global 5000 operational ( AFM )

http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/15/54/62/79/raw10.jpg

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 22 Feb 2015 15:59

How does a AWACS rotodome rotate, Google searched for it but found nothing.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 22 Feb 2015 16:21

ravip wrote:How does a AWACS rotodome rotate, Google searched for it but found nothing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNSaR0Ha-Pc

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 22 Feb 2015 19:30

Austin wrote:Indian Special Mission Global 5000 operational ( AFM )

http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/15/54/62/79/raw10.jpg

Paylod underneith the plane is UTC DB-110 EO Recon pod.

http://utcaerospacesystems.com/cap/Docu ... system.pdf

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Feb 2015 21:06

Impressive pdf that 72 mile slant range photo.
One can make out vehicles at that range.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Feb 2015 21:43

you guys sure? its an israeli suite per our prior discussions.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Feb 2015 22:22

Sid wrote:
Austin wrote:Indian Special Mission Global 5000 operational ( AFM )

http://i38.servimg.com/u/f38/15/54/62/79/raw10.jpg
Paylod underneith the plane is UTC DB-110 EO Recon pod.

http://utcaerospacesystems.com/cap/Docu ... system.pdf

Why do we need that on a business jet? WOuldn't we task that on sukhois/jags? It's gotta be something else.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Feb 2015 01:27

Payload is DB-110. It might have other COMINT and ELINT payloads, but that's up to our imagination.

Image comparison below.

wig · Post by **wig** » 24 Feb 2015 08:54

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 46014.html

if this news is correct to rectify the situation of dwindling fighter resources the IAF may be getting the Russian t-50 sooner than expected - Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia

New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet (being built as an FGFA) can be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF) while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The same formula of graded improvements was applied in the case of Sukhoi-30 MkI jets.
Top government sources told The Tribune that Russians have been insisting on a $ 11-billion R&D contract for the FGFA project.
India, on its part, says since the plane is already flying, such a contract can be inked along with simultaneous deliveries of the plane to the IAF. Russia is yet to decide on India’s request.
Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in 2016. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.
Indications of a breakthrough in the deadlock over FFGA deal had come at the just-concluded Aero-India. Both sides separately acknowledged they were close to finalising the T-50 deal for the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme being run by Russia.
IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha had last week said: “The future belongs to fifth-generation fighters. Pending issues with Russia will be resolved soon and we will have a compressed timeline for deliveries”.
From the Russian side, the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar had said: “The Russian and Indian parties have reached a consensus on the work share of each party”.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Feb 2015 10:03

Why the hell is this logic never applied to desi airplanes?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 24 Feb 2015 21:17

Stand OFF Glide Weapon

specs

pic

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 24 Feb 2015 21:30

^^ there are 2 different versions of the standoff glide weapon , can gurus give more gyan

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Feb 2015 21:37

Sid wrote:Payload is DB-110. It might have other COMINT and ELINT payloads, but that's up to our imagination.

Image comparison below.

Good stuff. Previous reports noted it had an ELINT/COMINT and SAR package as well and the CONDOR pod.
http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/Condor2.pdf
Looks like the EO part was supplanted by the DB-110.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 Feb 2015 21:58

chiru, Its the same. One from the front, one from the back.
Its just a demo by IAF BRD on what they can manufacture - the entire thing is made of FRP/composites. BRD have long history of working with composites, doing part replacement on MiGs for better performance.
Apart from that, its just (as ramanaji's favourite term) : "khayali pulao" .

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Feb 2015 00:10

No, they are not the same. The first one seems like a "glide" bomb
https://www.flickr.com/photos/suvichitr ... 021927825/

The second one has an engine, swept-forward tail plane and a different wing mount
https://www.flickr.com/photos/suvichitr ... 021927825/

I agree with you that at the moment it is very very far from being a weapon.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Feb 2015 03:19

Yup, two different demo units

Still don't know why they made it, apart from displaying their mfg capabilities.. but they look cool though!
If they were made into actual units.. can imagine a 100 of them being deployed from the wings of a fleet of MTAs.. swooping down towards their target on a moonlit night.. and the PAF base commander silently watches in amazement at what is inbound, even as his radars show nothing on the scope.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Feb 2015 15:28

chiru wrote:^^ there are 2 different versions of the standoff glide weapon , can gurus give more gyan

I was completely surprised to see this..one was a motorized version and the other was a glide bomb..looked very shabby from up close with poor finish. The wings were not foldable but they said that some IAF guys had designed it and eventually the wings will be foldable. Frankly, looked like it was a last minute decision to showcase this.

Was built of composites though, that was the only thing that stood out.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Feb 2015 11:10

This time truly,"the Wizrds of Oz"!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... gines.html
Australia creates 'world first' 3D-printed jet engines
Manufacturing breakthrough that engineers expect will lead to cheaper, lighter and more fuel-efficient jets

Australian researchers say they have created two jet engines using 3D printing in what is described a world-first that has attracted the interest of major manufacturers and engineering firms.

The machines - produced using the template of a gas turbine engine from French aircraft engine maker Safran, which supplies Airbus and Boeing - demonstrated the potential 3D printing had to produce high-quality products, researchers from Melbourne's Monash University said.

"The significance... is the recognition by major manufacturers and engineering companies like Safran and Airbus that the material you can print using 3D metal printing is of aircraft quality and I think that's hugely significant," the university's Ian Smith told AFP.

"It's a disruptive technology. We've seen a lot happening in the plastics and polymer space but this is exciting because it's now metals and light metals and things like titanium, nickel and aluminium."

3D printing was invented in the 1980s and employs lasers to "print" objects from metals or plastics according to a digital design.
Related Articles

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There has been a recent upsurge in interest tied to patents on the original technology expiring - opening the way for competition that will drive up quality and push down prices.

Wu Xinhua, from Monash University, said her team created the machines by pulling apart the old engine and scanning its components, with the complex project taking a year to complete.

One of the engines is on display at the Australian International Airshow in Melbourne with the second in Toulouse at the French aerospace company Microturbo.

"Xinhua and her Monash team have demonstrated their mastery of additive manufacturing in metal," said Jean-Francois Rideau, head of research and technology at Microturbo.

Smith said the technology could be used to build prototypes and customised components quickly and cheaply.

The 3D metals printers could also be used in the biomedical industry to create body parts or equipment.

"Where we see some of the big opportunities are in the medical space where you can make bespoke parts for the body - replacement joints and hips designed specifically for that individual," he said.

"A lot of surgeons want to make their own instruments that are customised for them or a particular surgical procedure."

Market researcher Gartner last year forecast that worldwide spending on 3D printing will rise from US$1.6 billion in 2015 to around US$13.4 billion in 2018.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Mar 2015 01:03

MoD clears 38 Swiss trainers for IAF, long-term naval project for 12 mine-hunting warships

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 01 Mar 2015 09:59

They are Windy and Tuffy of PGM family.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2015 10:50

With 9 DRDO projects running late,actually more as they did not add the IJT,etc.,the order for more Pilatus trainers is welcome,though the MOD should've gone the whole hog,probably didn't do so because of lack of funds.There is no point in having two types of basic trainers and judging from HAL's stupendous track record we can be very sure that our grandchildren may one day see its BTT arrive!

In one of the daily bulletins at AE,the man in charge of the LCA MK-2 programme gave us some hard news. LCA MK-32 may fly in "2017,second half",attempt to reduce weight by 500kg,modest increase in length of aircraft because it will allow for more space for avionics,etc. and make it easier to access and replace them.No need for ballast either. Going by HLA's track record,it will then take another 3-4 years for flight testing to be completed,the aircraft cleared for LSP by around 2022 at the earliest.With the HAL scale of production at 8/yr,we should get about 4+ sqds built by 2030.Add to that the 40 MK-1s on order and we should get a grand total of around 6-8 sqds. eventually .That would be approx. exactly as many HF-24s we built which one predicted 5 years ago! If this is going to be the case,there is no way that the LCA will be of any great significant value to the IAF. It will not make up more than 10-12%+ of the IAF's inventory.Will post more LCA details in that td. later on.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 01 Mar 2015 12:36

Philip,

you had posted a few days ago that you had read a bison vs LCA Mk 1 comparison in Vayu. I cannot go beyond the first page of that article. Would you be kind enough to post some major details. Thank you very much.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2015 12:43

Actually, I like what the govt. has done. They have taken the middle path on BTT. I will forecast that there will be a requirement of more than 100 HTT-40s (armed and unarmed).

But Philip sir, you are all over the place with the rest of your post. You are an oldie. How can you get it so wrong? And that too on such well discussed topics.

1. HAL can be blamed for an umpteen number of things, but it cannot be blamed for testing LCAs, because it doesn't!
2. HAL's rate of production of 8 per annum is not HAL's problem. If they have to build 50 aircraft in 7-8 years, at what rate should they build? This is a class unitary math problem!!!! The rate is 8 because it is generally the minimum rate at which a production line can be kept open, otherwise they would have gone even slower.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Mar 2015 13:35

Armed HTT-40? To be used against which adversary? Total red herring.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2015 16:24

Pretty much on the roadmap sir. Please see here.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Mar 2015 17:51

^^^^
Sounds like a comedy show

9. HAL is also going to the Army and saying IAF has the attack helicopters, you get the HTT-40 for ground support. It is much more effective (range and time at station), low on maintenance, and exctremely cheap. They can put everything on it from bombs, PGMs, rockets, anti-tank missiles to A2A missiles (showed a video of taking out aerial targets by some other trainer).

I am absolutely certain that the Indian Army does not have a squad of suicide pilots that will go up against Pak Army / PLA air defences in an HTT-40.

Weapons training is done on IJT/AJT, not on the basic trainer.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 01 Mar 2015 18:38

forget about weapons on HTT-40. First let it fly.
Target was 2015 followed by production starting from 2017. Let's see.

The state-owned airframer had said that development of the HTT-40 was expected to be complete next year. Deliveries were expected to commence from 2017, with all 106 trainers being delivered by 2024, according to HAL estimates.

HAL is getting the option to produce 68 + BTA not because of something remarkable from HAL side , but only because the govt. want's make in India to succeed.
Rather than making an AMCA or Tejas Mk.2 quick delivery and success a self respect issue, HAL feels deprived if HTT-40 is not allowed to succeed.
If HTT-40 production line is not churning out aircraft's from Jan,2018 then unfortunately more Pilatus will be ordered for sure and may be at a higher cost.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Mar 2015 18:45

^^^^^
As far as I know, 113 PC-7 Mk II are more than the number of HPT-32 the IAF had. Let's hope and wish that the HTT-40 succeeds; to rely on it do so, given HAL's past record, would be madness.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Mar 2015 18:56

The big elephant in the room which HAL simply does not want to talk about is IJT - there seems to be no clarity on the subject. It would be ultimate travesty if IAF ends up importing this machine. The HAL gent at Aero India spoke with much gusto about everything under the sun but the IJT. They've made a mess of a straight forward project...

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 01 Mar 2015 19:01

^^^^
^^^^^^
By more Pilatus, I meant if the number of 181 is required by IAF and as usual if HAL fails to meet the timelines even for a BTA .

The fun part is HAL HTT-40 as per the above link has interest from Navy, Army , Exports still HAL is criticizing the IAF. Come on make it , fly it and prove it outside the comfort zone of captive buyers. BTW in which year was the last ALH exported [not criticizing the Helo , but the approach]

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 01 Mar 2015 20:04

rohitvats wrote:The big elephant in the room which HAL simply does not want to talk about is IJT - there seems to be no clarity on the subject. It would be ultimate travesty if IAF ends up importing this machine. The HAL gent at Aero India spoke with much gusto about everything under the sun but the IJT. They've made a mess of a straight forward project...

Why would HAL talk about IJT? They already got the development funds sanctioned and the production orders. Gravy train is at full speed. What's there to talk about? The fact that it doesn't work is not their problem, it's IAF's problem.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 01 Mar 2015 23:16

The March edition of the Journal of the Air Force Association (USAF) - Air-Force Magazine has a multi-page write up on the Indian Air-Force titled " India's Air Force Evolves".

Download - http://docdroid.net/t5o6