Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Sep 2014 17:47

I wonder what is the real urgent need for a manportable F&F SAM , Nag on Wheeled platform has just cleared trials after a long struggle.

Its not that we are facing a fleet of Abrams or Leo 2 from our neighbour , the current generation Milan-2T/Kornet and other older system Fagot etc is something IA can manage with for few year and we still have Nag on Tracked Platform and Choppers

Purchase of Javelian/Spike or other system means Man Portable Nag will die a silent death ....Hopefully the new MOD can take a practical decision and cancel it and invest the money in local system even if it comes by 2020 it would be worth.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Sep 2014 18:02

I agree here, there is absolutely no pressing need for a Javelin and proper time and money can be dedicated to developing a MP version of the NAG

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Sep 2014 20:37

^^^ Unfortunately that is not the way it needs to be seen. IA is an infantry division heavy force. We do not have sufficient combined arms units (to leverage limited NAMICAs, ATGM equipped IFVs, tanks and Attack choppers) in the deserts, plains and other tank territories; especially for formations like Holding Corps tasked to hold and defend territory. So local Armor thrusts by enemy tanks will be a huge threat for defending Inf Divs. Hence, Inf Battalions need to have well equipped ATGM platoons that can fire, forget and move to new location for next target engagement. Due to resource crunch, ATGM platoons will also be prized assets, hence the need for F&F like Javelin to avoid their attrition in battle.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Sep 2014 20:49

Singha wrote:er with 9000 javelins and associated units, one can write the obituary of Nag right away.

That decision is entirely ours to make, isn't it? If we are serious about developing Nag so we are independent, we should be ready to pay rhe price. A case can be made that getting Javelin tech will help us to make a better Nag. Does our neighborhood allow us the luxury to compromise the comparative quality of preparedness in the meantime? It's no different than getting Rafales while we learn to roll our own.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 Sep 2014 21:15

There is a lot of stuff that is not in the best of our interest here:
(1) Letting some areas exposed to paki armor attacks
(2) shortage of man portable missiles (soft launch without shoot and scoot capability)
(3) Nag not yet man portable
(4) Paki attack armor itself provided to attack India by fourfathers

If I am not mistaken, pakis attack vulnerable areas with imported (free) armor; then post war demand back vital areas that Indian defence forces fought hard to win - Haji peer pass a prime example; and then continue to throw rabid terrorist dogs across the border.

So how does easy shoot and scoot ops by infantry with javeline be any different than Nag - if we have enough Nag missiles to crush attacking pakis - including helina version. I think we should plan much more and cut off any gains - by crushing off their attacks. Limited helicopters with patented technology- how will that be any better than mass attack by desi missiles.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Sep 2014 22:09

er with 9000 javelins and associated units, one can write the obituary of Nag right away.

I was under the impression that there were two "phases" to this Javelin story: the current Javelin itself (co-production) + the co-dev/prod of the "Next gen ATM". No?

IF that is true, then why the fear of losing Nag?

However, I feel what would benefit India is not the complete co-design + co-development + co-production of a system, but build a framework - a modular system - where two or more nations collaborate on building something in common and then go their own ways providing the rest of the details.

BTW, the latest arg that the US is making is that co-production will get rid of any fear of sanctions.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2014 22:19

Next gen is a nice myth. Amrikas next gen atgm is not a atgm
..its showers of sdb and sfw unleashed from afar.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 03 Sep 2014 22:49

KiranM wrote:^^^ Unfortunately that is not the way it needs to be seen. IA is an infantry division heavy force. We do not have sufficient combined arms units (to leverage limited NAMICAs, ATGM equipped IFVs, tanks and Attack choppers) in the deserts, plains and other tank territories; especially for formations like Holding Corps tasked to hold and defend territory. So local Armor thrusts by enemy tanks will be a huge threat for defending Inf Divs. Hence, Inf Battalions need to have well equipped ATGM platoons that can fire, forget and move to new location for next target engagement. Due to resource crunch, ATGM platoons will also be prized assets, hence the need for F&F like Javelin to avoid their attrition in battle.

I don't get the logic, given that the Javelin will be 5-10 more expensive than the missile(s) it is replacing. Going for a phenomenally more expensive missile because of a fund crunch makes no sense.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Sep 2014 22:53

Singha wrote:Next gen is a nice myth. Amrikas next gen atgm is not a atgm
..its showers of sdb and sfw unleashed from afar.

You're right...

"In 2010 the US government announced the sale to India of 512 CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapons.[2] The expected platform is the SEPECAT Jaguar.[5]"

With this, you don't need Javelins or next gen ATGMs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97_Sensor_Fuzed_Weapon

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Sep 2014 23:13

Move the talk on ATGM to the right thread. This is Indian Military Aviation thread. Any more derailment will attract warnings.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Sep 2014 23:25

India’s Air Force, Air Defense show interest in Russian anti-aircraft missile systems

ASHULUK, September 03. /ITAR-TASS/. India’s Air Force and Air Defense showed interest in Russia’s S-400, S-300PV, Buk-M1 and Pantsir-S1 anti-aircraft missile systems during the Avia Indra-2014 exercises, chief of Russia’s air defense missile troops, Major-General Sergei Babakov said on Wednesday.

“They showed much interest in our systems. They may need weaponry to upgrade,” Babakov said.

Russia and India are planning to conduct large-scale air and air defense exercises every year. “Russia’s Air Force command and India agreed that the manoeuvres should be conducted annually. They bring only positive results,” he said.

India’s Air Force, Vice Marshal Raghunath Nambiar said Indian servicemen had got much information during the exercises.

“We’re glad to be here. My pilots and Air Defense specialist received support and got information from Russia,” he added.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2014 23:37

Deleted.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 04 Sep 2014 09:43

Deputy Chief of Air Staff Flies Tejas

Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (trainer version) was flown in Bengaluru today by Deputy Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal SBP Sinha. Having had first hand experience and feel of the aircraft Deputy Chief of Air Staff expressed that the aircraft handles well both on the ground and in the air. He was on a two day visit to Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) during which, he took a review of various aspects of Tejas programme.

The first flight by a senior officer of the rank of Air Marshal from Air HQ was a joyous occasion for all the stake holders of the programme such as ADA, HAL, National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), DGAQA and the IAF whose focused and synergized efforts contributed to the success of the project in large measures.

Expressing his happiness, Shri PS Subramanyam Programme Director (Combat Aircraft) and Director ADA said, "This flight of Tejas by a senior IAF commander indicates the high degree of confidence in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft."

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Sep 2014 10:17

Indo-Russian Air Force Exercise (Avia Indra-2014) ( Video )

http://youtu.be/6A0nHJKTlkU

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 04 Sep 2014 10:55

Design flaw may have led to Dhruv crash

A design flaw may have led to the July 25 crash of an India-made air force helicopter that left its seven-man crew dead, initial findings of a probe have revealed.

The advanced light helicopter, also called Dhruv, went down near Sitapur in Uttar Pradesh barely an hour after it had taken off from Bareilly, in one of the worst crashes involving the chopper built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

“Preliminary findings point to structural problems in the ill-fated chopper. These flaws seriously compromised its airworthiness and led to complete loss of control,” an IAF source familiar with the investigation said. It had logged only two hours of flying after being serviced at Bareilly.

A helicopter’s airframe is its primary structural element that holds all other components together. Structural failure is mainly due to a design flaw or metal
fatigue. Stress on a particular section of the airframe could lead to metal giving way.

“There are several moving parts in a chopper. Their design dictates reliability. If there’s a structural failure, the poor bloke simply goes down with the chopper,” said former IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Major, a veteran helicopter pilot.

The Dhruv has faced tail rotor problems in the past — the entire fleet was grounded in 2006 — but those issues were ironed out.

The source said extensive checks were being carried out on the IAF’s Dhruv fleet of 40 choppers and the ones found airworthy were now flying. The IAF, army, navy and coast guard together operate more than 100 Dhruv helicopters. HAL will be producing another 60, each worth `35 crore.

An HAL source said 12 specialist teams had carried out detailed inspections at helicopter bases across the country but no design or manufacturing flaws were detected in the fleet, which clocked one lakh flying hours last October.

member_22605 · Post by **member_22605** » 04 Sep 2014 12:03

As far as i know the COE has not submitted its findings and there is no design flaw whatsoever, the title of the article is very misleading and citing unnamed sources and insinuating a successful design is highly irresponsible to say the least.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 04 Sep 2014 12:15

Irresponsible or deliberate? Import lobby is constantly at work.....

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Sep 2014 16:17

^^^^ Yes, please wait for the final Court of Inquiry finding.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 04 Sep 2014 16:44

All HAL and HSL baiters just make some time from your keyboard war and visit any of them...in fact i was one among the baiters until got a rude shock about the reality.

To cut the story short....my cousin was working in HAL,he was in the quality checking dept for 10yrs he left the HAL in 2005 and flew to US after doing SAP because he was a mech engg...once had a chat with him about the inefficiency and all rants in the online, he said he was paid just 10,000/month and used to work for 10 hours, he said he was working in HAL because he didn't get job else where and for the sake of experience and guess what he is paid today 4lac/month. People look at the contrast who is gonna waste there whole life for such a pity salary, many experienced hands are lost this way.Coming to the main point he said they worked with lot of passion and he used to complete the given task with in the timeline, and not like what we assume.

It's the Indian conjuse syndrome at the play to reduce manufacturing and labour cost we never pay the PSU employess their due but expect gold standard products and efficiency from them.

With all due respect to the members, it is my humble request that you don't jump to conclusion, there is always the other side to the story. Just introspect yourself how many of you didn't curse HSL for KILO repair crying hoarse that HSL destroyed a formidable warship, without even trying to know the other side. It was your ignorance not HSL that is guilty for your angst.

The PSU employees are as patriotic as any member here.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Sep 2014 17:24

ravip wrote:All HAL and HSL baiters just make some time from your keyboard war and visit any of them...in fact i was one among the baiters until got a rude shock about the reality.

To cut the story short....my cousin was working in HAL,he was in the quality checking dept for 10yrs he left the HAL in 2005 and flew to US after doing SAP because he was a mech engg...once had a chat with him about the inefficiency and all rants in the online, he said he was paid just 10,000/month and used to work for 10 hours, he said he was working in HAL because he didn't get job else where and for the sake of experience and guess what he is paid today 4lac/month. People look at the contrast who is gonna waste there whole life for such a pity salary, many experienced hands are lost this way.Coming to the main point he said they worked with lot of passion and he used to complete the given task with in the timeline, and not like what we assume.

It's the Indian conjuse syndrome at the play to reduce manufacturing and labour cost we never pay the PSU employess their due but expect gold standard products and efficiency from them.

With all due respect to the members, it is my humble request that you don't jump to conclusion, there is always the other side to the story. Just introspect yourself how many of you didn't curse HSL for KILO repair crying hoarse that HSL destroyed a formidable warship, without even trying to know the other side. It was your ignorance not HSL that is guilty for your angst.

The PSU employees are as patriotic as any member here.

The pay scales were similar in all Services and Govt jobs in 2005 under 05th pay commission. 06th pay commission became effective (back dated) from 01st Oct 2006. Govt pays what it can. The jump was significant in the 6th pay commission. What govt jobs offer are job security over an entire working life. Trade off being lower pay. Major debates on this but really which is the right way to go?

One could cite similar figures for Services / Bureaucrats etc in 2005. Going there and working at field levels will turn anyone's head and thought. What finally matters is how the different groups still manage.

And please patriotism is not under question. Different POV's result from (IMO) priorities being different and then the tendency to blame the weakest.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Sep 2014 19:08

ravip wrote: To cut the story short....my cousin was working in HAL,he was in the quality checking dept for 10yrs he left the HAL in 2005 and flew to US after doing SAP because he was a mech engg...once had a chat with him about the inefficiency and all rants in the online, he said he was paid just 10,000/month and used to work for 10 hours, he said he was working in HAL because he didn't get job else where

Let me just throw in another perspective here

If you look at US immigration policies they make special concessions for trained people from India. In fact from this year they are allowing spouses to work. Most emigrants from India to US are highly skilled workers like your cousin or their relatives. India trains them but cannot accommodate them. The US needs them and takes them. Funnily enough the US also needs illiterate and unskilled people - but for that they have Mexicans. I do not tire of pointing out that only 4% or so Indians in India have a graduate degree and we still cannot accommodate all of them - while 80% of Indians in the US do.

India simply does not have the industrial base to accommodate the 4 lakh odd engineers we train every year. So engineers are actually an export item for India. The US on the other hand allows in something like 80 or 90,000 skilled Indians per year. That gives us an idea of how many jobs they have and the size of their industrial base compared with ours. Of course I am certain the US makes money out of this because they do not have to spend on education and college expenditure when engineers are imported, and on average Indian engineers - esp on temp work permits get paid less. It is precisely because we calculate in Rupees that US salaries look so attractive. 4 lakh a month is US $70,000 a year.

India needs to rapidly expand its industrial base by several orders of magnitude. Of course salaries will never be high as the US, but those who go to the US will go. They cannot be stopped. Those who get work only in India will have to work here and make it good here, by hook or by crook.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 04 Sep 2014 23:15

deejay wrote: And please patriotism is not under question. Different POV's result from (IMO) priorities being different and then the tendency to blame the weakest.

I mentioned abt patriotism bcoz...this is wat I asked him 'why can't you ppl get it done and deliver the product'...his reply was like this 'what do you think we do there for 10hrs...there is stringent quality checking procedures involved almost 75% of products are rejected and by the time they attain some production frequency new design changes are made and this cycle continues until design is freezed.'

Then once I asked him, wen will you complete it...his answer was vague...but said his dept don't deal with deadlines...those are left to upper echelons of HAL....but we do only wat we are supposed to.

Then I asked wat parts do you certify he said that is sum thing not to be discussed. I asked him to take me to his office he said public are not allowed as der is too much security...

He used to always show me pictures of sea of buses leaving HAL campus in the evening...and used to tell ppl in these buses are not mad but they are as patritotic as you are!!!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Sep 2014 01:34

RaviP similar anecdotes from what i have experienced. Not a fan of HALs higher mgmt in days past though.
Whats the HSL info?

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 05 Sep 2014 08:21

Karan M wrote:RaviP similar anecdotes from what i have experienced. Not a fan of HALs higher mgmt in days past though.
Whats the HSL info?

I guess he means this report: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2014/09/d ... ul-to.html

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Sep 2014 10:14

AviaIndra Pic ( via TR1 )

http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs3/14 ... %D0%B0.jpg
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs3/14 ... %D0%B0.jpg
http://www.mycity-military.com/imgs3/52 ... 452932.jpg

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 05 Sep 2014 10:59

Montreal key to bagging Bombardier deal: Tech Mahindra

Per se, its not strictly an Indian Military Aviation issue, but once "Made/Make in India" theme gathers real stream, these talents will be very useful. Though the deal talks about hiring and deploying 1200+ people in Montreal, I bet Indics will also place a find in those teams.

We have had a long relationship with Bombardier and we are excited because this deal is purely focused on engineering services and we are involved with Bombardier and also with the aerospace industry in general, we provide new product development and that comprises of design, validation of design, we are involved in manufacturing engineering, which we believe has huge potential that includes tool design, manufacturing methods and our industry trends clearly show that aircraft sales is going to dramatically increase.

So we believe that - we call it customer support that will be after market engineering space, services space will be very vibrant. We play an important role in that. We also support our customer in sustainment of their existing product lines and we are leading player in interior design of aircrafts specifically business jets. So I think there is a lot of things that we do and this contract with Bombardier is kind of reflection of the good work we have done in the past and the potential for the future.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Sep 2014 12:22

@ravip, I stand by with the fact that the Patriotism is not under question for anyone in the chain.

As people who enjoy the benefit of BRF's educated critical appraisals we should understand that most of angry rants against any Indian entity is a reflection of the ranters frustration. Even I have been guilty of the same. While working in the Services and wearing my Patriotism on my sleeve (even today, I think), I used to get upset at even a hint of unfavourable opinion. Today, I think, that attitude killed any possible debate or counter view to mine.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Sep 2014 05:01

Last edited by indranilroy on 03 Sep 2014 12:41, edited 1 time in total.
How does discussion on an ATGM relate to Indian Military Aviation?

Sensor fused CBUs delivered by an aircraft are an alternative to ATGMs and in consonance with Singha's observation.

wig · Post by **wig** » 07 Sep 2014 15:55

it appears that an unidentified aircraft created a scare

An unidentified aircraft today caused a security scare in Mumbai airspace after it was spotted by an Etihad Airways flight and reported to the air traffic control (ATC) here, official sources said.

The incident was also reported to the Chennai ATC to establish the identity of the plane, the sources said.

However, the sources did not divulge the make of the aircraft or whether it was a civilian or a military plane, as reported by the aircraft of the Etihad Airways which was flying from its home base of Abu Dhabi to Jakarta.

Investigations have been launched by the air traffic control, which is under the Airports Authority of India, and other security agencies, the sources said.

The incident caused panic among the aviation authorities as they were reminded of the 1995 Purulia arms drop case.

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/unidentif ... ht-mumbai/

However, sources said the unidentified plane could have belonged to the US Air Force, and it was not on any civil or military radar. The US uses the Diego Garcia islands in the south Indian Ocean as its air force base for keeping an eye on India's troubled western neighborhood. Reconnaissance missions and military exercises are mounted from these islands, they said.

"Military and government planes on sensitive or classified missions like reconnaissance do not file their flight plans with ATCs of the regions they will be flying over. Such planes fly with 'due regard' to civil air traffic using visual flight rules, which basically mean they just see and fly," said sources. But breaches of the 'minimum distance for vertical separation' in areas swarming with such aircraft can be a hazard for commercial traffic.

Since the warning came from planes flying at 36,500 feet, chances are the unidentified aircraft was on a reconnaissance flight as fighter jets don't fly that high

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 897554.cms

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 09 Sep 2014 11:59

Can anyone please let me know why mig/cheetak aircrafts are now outdated. What I want to know is, if their speed, t/w ratios and altitude ceiling were good in past it should be good now also. Only thing i think has changed is avionics and spares supply. So can't we just replace the avionics and build our spares overselves, keeping the rest same as that will be easier to do and get the aircrafts up and running lot quicker than developing totally new.
Please move the question to relevant thread it is not suitable here.

Thanks,

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 09 Sep 2014 14:53

isubodh wrote:Can anyone please let me know why mig/cheetak aircrafts are now outdated. What I want to know is, if their speed, t/w ratios and altitude ceiling were good in past it should be good now also. Only thing i think has changed is avionics and spares supply. So can't we just replace the avionics and build our spares overselves, keeping the rest same as that will be easier to do and get the aircrafts up and running lot quicker than developing totally new.
Please move the question to relevant thread it is not suitable here.

Thanks,

Unfortunately Isubodh it is not just the airframes that need replacement. The avionics are not just plug and play lego type components that can just be changed with a new better type. For example, your old Maruti 800, with a new engine added and some new gizmos does not become a Wagon R. With newer avionics, the power requirements increase which requires a new engine to say the least and the whole package undergoes a change. If only changing engines was so easy as we can see from the HAL IJT experience.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2014 19:48

Not a single Dhruv visible in news reports of Kashmir rescue ops

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 09 Sep 2014 19:58

shiv wrote:Not a single Dhruv visible in news reports of Kashmir rescue ops

https://twitter.com/adgpi/status/509254 ... 36/photo/1

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Sep 2014 20:08

^^^
Mogambo khush hua

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Sep 2014 01:45

shiv wrote:Not a single Dhruv visible in news reports of Kashmir rescue ops

Some were visible in news reports coming in recently. Actually, the Dhruv has been pressed by IA into service and from what I could gather, is working in areas close to LOC for both IA's own requirement and civilian aid. No camera person had reached till recently to cover ops in these areas.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 10 Sep 2014 04:59

Dhruv in action
J&K floods: 4 BSF jawans rescued from near the border, says Army commando

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 10 Sep 2014 17:36

Any media reports of how people feel about being rescued by the Dhruv?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 10 Sep 2014 17:51

Rien wrote:Any media reports of how people feel about being rescued by the Dhruv?

Yes, there were reports of stone pelting.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 11 Sep 2014 13:27

shiv wrote:^^^
Mogambo khush hua

Fact: More dhruvs in work than Mi-17...not able to trace the report.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2014 13:31

one elderly Mi26 is also being used.