Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Dec 2014 03:20

India to lease second nuclear submarine from Russia

NEW DELHI: India is on course to acquire a second nuclear-powered submarine on lease from Russia to bolster its depleted underwater combat arm as well as train its sailors in the complex art of operating such vessels.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar indicated this possibility on Tuesday on being asked whether India was planning to acquire another Akula-II class nuclear submarine from Russia after President Vladimir Putin's visit here last week.

India had inducted the first Akula-II submarine, christened INS Chakra, on a 10-year lease from Russia in April 2012, under a secret around $1 billion deal inked way back in January 2004.

India and Russia have been holding talks on leasing another mothballed Akula-II submarine named "Irbis'', the full construction of which also could not be completed due to financial problems after the USSR broke up in the early-1990s, as earlier reported by TOI.

"It's an open secret. We are discussing the possibility of extending the current lease or of taking another submarine on lease. This will help us in training," said Parrikar, after paying homage at Amar Jawan Jyoti on Vijay Diwas.

This comes a day after India's first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant began its sea-trials off Visakhapatnam. It will take "10-12 months" for the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant to be ready for induction, said Parrikar.

The difference between INS Arihant and these 8,000-tonne Akula submarines is that the latter are not armed with nuclear-tipped or long-range missiles due to international treaties. INS Arihant, during its long-drawn sea trials, will also have to test-fire its nuclear-tipped K-15 ballistic missiles before it can become fully-operational.

While not meant for "nuclear deterrent patrols", INS Chakra can be "a potent hunter-killer'' of enemy submarines and warships as well as undertake swift intelligence-gathering operations, apart from being equipped with land-attack conventional cruise missiles. In this, the leased submarine has added some much-needed muscle to India's depleting fleet of 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of them which are currently operational.

INS Chakra also serves as a training platform for INS Arihant and its two follow-on sister SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with ballistic missiles) being built at the shipbuilding centre at Vizag.

The next SSBN, INS Aridhaman, is also now ready for "launch" into water, while the third called S-4 is at an advanced fabrication stage in the building blocks. The Navy is also pursuing the proposed project to build six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines without ballistic missiles) at Vizag, as earlier reported by TOI.

Nuclear submarines can operate at high speeds for long distances, and do not have to surface or "snorkel" every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries like diesel-electric submarines.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Dec 2014 05:10

it all depends on arihant sea trials and missile trials now.

that and the A5 cansister launch(was supposed to happen in Dec).

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 17 Dec 2014 05:17

Philip wrote:These subs were almost invulnerable .We saw from the salvaged Kursk that the aft part of the sub was intact despite the massive explosions that ripped through the forward part of the sub.

The Kursk was sunk by a practice torpedo

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 17 Dec 2014 05:24

GeorgeWelch wrote:The Kursk was sunk by a(n explosion of a) practice torpedo (in the torpedo room, caused by corrosion to and a rupture of the torpedo's fuel tank)

corrected...

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Dec 2014 05:32

We have one SSBN on sea trials, a second ready to float out, and a third in advanced hull fabrication. In effect, we're averaging a new SSBN out in open water every 3-4 years. On the other hand, we have absolutely nothing on the SSK and SSN front yet. Not a single Scorpene is in the water yet, and P75I is just getting started. While SSKs and SSNs are more complex (the Yasen was costlier per unit than the Borei) the difference in rate of output is startling. At least the ATV program had political backing supporting it all this while. They would have been much better off building a variant as an SS(G)N . In fact, I hope they do that for P75I .

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Dec 2014 05:58

Saurav Jha's article on the previous page says this:

Of the remaining three, MDL is known to have made a case before the government for continuing their submarine building line, so that the capabilities it has built up as a result of Project 75 ( i.e the Scorpene project) 'do not go waste'. Since all six Scorpene hulls have been fabricated, the hull fabrication unit at MDL is currently lying unused even as it is being oiled in anticipation of new orders.

I don't understand the bolded part. If the hull fab unit is idle, can't they be put to use to keep churning out more hulls? I may be mistaken about this, but the Scorpene project involved full ToT, so we could theoretically keep building our subs right?

IN's plan is to have 24 subs by 2025 or so: 6 from Scorpene, 6 from P-75I (which is still in the early stages) and 3-5 nuke subs over the next 10 years will still total up to 17 tops. And we would have to retire some of the older HDWs in the meantime, so we will still be far short of the target.

AFAIK, the only issue with Scorpene is the lack of AIP, but there are reports that DRDO is looking to install homegrown AIP on the last 2 Scorpenes, which means future Scorpenes if built, can have the AIP from the get-go. So what's preventing MoD from building more?

Ideally, MDL should be ordered to build another 6 (maybe more?) while the P-75I and the nuke sub programs stabilise.

His article says this as well, I hope this ends up being true:

However the idea behind Project 75I was always to get a second submarine building facility in India for strategic reasons. If that still be the case, it is unlikely that MDL will be selected for the Project 75I line. Of course there is a chance that it will get an order to build 3 more Scorpenes sometime in the near future. In fact that may be what MDL needs to be i peace with a Project 75I decision that does not involve it. Although this is mere conjecture.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Dec 2014 06:53

VinodTK wrote:India to lease second nuclear submarine from Russia
NEW DELHI: India is on course to acquire a second nuclear-powered submarine on lease from Russia to bolster its depleted underwater combat arm as well as train its sailors in the complex art of operating such vessels.

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar indicated this possibility on Tuesday on being asked whether India was planning to acquire another Akula-II class nuclear submarine from Russia after President Vladimir Putin's visit here last week.

India had inducted the first Akula-II submarine, christened INS Chakra, on a 10-year lease from Russia in April 2012, under a secret around $1 billion deal inked way back in January 2004.

India and Russia have been holding talks on leasing another mothballed Akula-II submarine named "Irbis'', the full construction of which also could not be completed due to financial problems after the USSR broke up in the early-1990s, as earlier reported by TOI.

"It's an open secret. We are discussing the possibility of extending the current lease or of taking another submarine on lease. This will help us in training," said Parrikar, after paying homage at Amar Jawan Jyoti on Vijay Diwas.

This comes a day after India's first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant began its sea-trials off Visakhapatnam. It will take "10-12 months" for the 6,000-tonne INS Arihant to be ready for induction, said Parrikar.

The difference between INS Arihant and these 8,000-tonne Akula submarines is that the latter are not armed with nuclear-tipped or long-range missiles due to international treaties. INS Arihant, during its long-drawn sea trials, will also have to test-fire its nuclear-tipped K-15 ballistic missiles before it can become fully-operational.

While not meant for "nuclear deterrent patrols", INS Chakra can be "a potent hunter-killer'' of enemy submarines and warships as well as undertake swift intelligence-gathering operations, apart from being equipped with land-attack conventional cruise missiles. In this, the leased submarine has added some much-needed muscle to India's depleting fleet of 13 ageing diesel-electric submarines, only half of them which are currently operational.

INS Chakra also serves as a training platform for INS Arihant and its two follow-on sister SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with ballistic missiles) being built at the shipbuilding centre at Vizag.

The next SSBN, INS Aridhaman, is also now ready for "launch" into water, while the third called S-4 is at an advanced fabrication stage in the building blocks. The Navy is also pursuing the proposed project to build six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines without ballistic missiles) at Vizag, as earlier reported by TOI.

Nuclear submarines can operate at high speeds for long distances, and do not have to surface or "snorkel" every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries like diesel-electric submarines.

India should go for leasing two more Akulas (if available). That would be a total of around 3 to 4 SSNs. With the Russian economy in shambles due to the falling oil prices and collapse of the Rouble, the time is right to acquire them at good prices.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Dec 2014 09:02

Russian economy is in shambles? A tough phase for them perhaps, but shambles is a very strong word to use for their economy.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Dec 2014 09:13

^^^

Yes. I should have used "recession" instead

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 17 Dec 2014 09:17

British navy apprehends 10 more Indian fishermen
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 538928.cms

The british be asked to leave BIOT. Colonialism ended long back. Still being in India's backyard is unacceptable. Time for them to handover and leave.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Dec 2014 09:39

India to Lease a Second Nuclear Submarine From Russia

New Delhi: The Indian Navy will soon have another nuclear submarine. The government has decided to lease a second nuclear submarine from Russia, top Defence Ministry officials have told NDTV.

Currently, India operates an 8,140-tonne Akula Class submarine - renamed the INS Chakra - that was leased in 2011 from Russia for a period of 10 years, at a cost of about USD 970 million. (INS Chakra: Top 10 Must-Know Facts)

The lease conditions allow India to fire conventional weapons only from the platform. The second leased submarine will also be the same class and is expected to come with the same conditions.

India is looking at the hull of the Iribis - a Russian Akula class submarine - that was never completed after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s.

Yesterday, the indigenously-built nuclear powered INS Arihant started its sea trials, and is expected to join the fleet in another two years. India is in the process of building three more nuclear powered submarines. The keel of the second Arihant class submarine has already been laid. (INS Arihant, First Made-in-India Nuclear Submarine, Begins Sea Trials)

The decision to lease a second submarine has been taken on two counts: One with three more nuclear submarines coming up, the Indian Navy needs to train manpower. Moreover, with the Indian submarine fleet depleted, the leased submarine will also pitch in to bridge the capability gap. India has about 13 conventional submarines and one nuclear, out of which only half are available for deployment at any given time.

To protect its maritime interests, India needs a minimum of 24 submarines. However, delays in implementing the 30 year submarine plan, drawn up in 1988 which proposed to procure six submarines from the West and another six from Russia and then amalgamate the technology and come up with indigenous design, has resulted in India not having a credible sea denial capability.

Plans to buy additional Scorpene-class submarines from France were also turned down by the current government. Instead, the Government wants submarines to be made in India. The Navy has been asked to identify an Indian ship yard that can build submarines after acquiring technology from a foreign partner.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 17 Dec 2014 10:56

Russian economy is in shambles? A tough phase for them perhaps, but shambles is a very strong word to use for their economy.

OT

They are an energy exporting economy. Oil is now Sub60. Their Central bank raised rates by 6.5% to 17%. They have now kicked out Daimler and are nationalizing all MNC assets. Their currency has nearly halved since October s and is now worth the same as the Ukranian Currency. The Russian economy is doing everything right now to track the 1998 crash. Russian central bankers are calling this their worst nightmare. Then add to this the new set of Sanctions from America.

Last night i heard rumours that Putin may think of mobilising Troops Facing NATO. He is seeing the assault on his currency as an Act of War. Our own Stock market has shed 500+ points in the past couple of days. The impact on the PIGS as a fallout of Russia (Portugal, Italy, greece, spain) is going to start compounding. soon).

If Putin does decide to do something stupid (militarily) then the world could go back to a dark place really soon.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 17 Dec 2014 11:28

^ India been friends with a dictator like Putin is kind of a conundrum to me.

Only thing connecting today's Russia with India is Arms Arms Arms - a soviet legacy which we are been forced to maintain - otherwise Russia arms Pakistan whenever we choose a Euro/US/Israel import. Otherwise, our trade, cultural exchanges or any other exchange metric with Russia is really weak.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Dec 2014 11:28

rkhanna: Russia, or any other primary commodity exporter, is doing the right thing by devaluing when the price of the commodity falls. Why ? Because oil is priced in dollars, so by matching the oil price decline with a devaluation, they balance their budget. While it may lead to inflation due to imports becoming costly, it also gives them a ready excuse to nationalize western businesses. Their external debt as been stable, and even declined slightly in recent months. Further discussion is available in the India-Russia thread.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 17 Dec 2014 11:58

nik wrote:^ India been friends with a dictator like Putin is kind of a conundrum to me.

Only thing connecting today's Russia with India is Arms Arms Arms - a soviet legacy which we are been forced to maintain - otherwise Russia arms Pakistan whenever we choose a Euro/US/Israel import. Otherwise, our trade, cultural exchanges or any other exchange metric with Russia is really weak.

Actions of Russia under Dictator Putin:
1.Supplying arms at credit prices to a terrorist sponsor state against India. - No
2.Defending international standing inspite of terror sponsorhip in UN resolutions. - No
3.Funding NGOs/EJs to subvert Indian democratic norms, development. - No
4.Keeping bastions of fundamentalist Islam like SA secure, which is a direct threat to India. - No

Actions of USA under Democrat(ic) Obama:
1.Supplying arms at credit prices to a terrorist sponsor state against India. - Yes
2.Defending international standing inspite of terror sponsorhip in UN resolutions. - Yes
3.Funding NGOs/EJs to subvert Indian democratic norms, development. - Yes
4.Keeping bastions of fundamentalist Islam like SA secure, which is a direct threat to India. - Yes

Last OT post.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 17 Dec 2014 13:43

Its almost as if US wants Russia to start some military conflict with NATO in Eastern Europe.

Russia has to resist taking that bait.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2014 15:39

The lease of a second Akula is/must be the top priority for the IN,as the ATV/SSBN programme reportedly comes under the PMO and the Strat. forces command. The IN needs a large fleet of SSNs/SSGNs to counter the PLAN both in the IOR and Indo-China Sea.Attack subs will also be needed to protect our carrier task forces from enemy subs. The RuN has several Akulas in service and is building a large number of Yasens.Perhaps a few of the older Akulas could also be leased later on after the second new-build one is delivered,as they begin to be replaced by new Yasens.

The huge Q where will the IN's 6 SSNs be built in India? Can we set up a parallel line at all? If MDL's hull fabrication unit is idle,then it could start building hulls for N-subs as L&T is doing.On the other hand,it would be better for L&T who have mastered N-sub hulls to start fabrication on the SSNs as well as the future SSBNs.No time like the present. Apartf rom L&T and MDL, we need one more player in the sub business, manufacturing smaller research subs,midget/mini subs,UUVs,and deep diving bathyscapes. For an ancient maritime nation like India,the possibilities are immense in the sub-building field both for mil. and research .

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Dec 2014 13:13

It looks like a done deal,the second Akula,judging from the various press reports,etc. Details deliberately kept to a minimum for obvious reasons. What would be interesting is whether the sale of conventional AIP subs was also discussed for 75I or to beef up IN numbers. We'll have to wait for more info.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 18 Dec 2014 19:52

Philip wrote:It looks like a done deal,the second Akula,judging from the various press reports,etc. Details deliberately kept to a minimum for obvious reasons. What would be interesting is whether the sale of conventional AIP subs was also discussed for 75I or to beef up IN numbers. We'll have to wait for more info.

I would not say it is done deal, based on the information posted on another forum. Irbis requires comprehensive refit with cost of 1.5b$ and may take couple of years. As compare to the Arihant where we spent 2.5b$ along with infrastructure, know how, material and we keep the boat after 10 years.

It make sense only to wait for couple of years and spent so much money if something bigger is covered along with sub.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 19 Dec 2014 02:35

^^^ needs seem to dictate. Second cbg + training needs == far greater than current capacity.

ssks wont do even in IOR any more. even AIP is years away. there has been a technological infusion in PLAN that is a genberational jump. IOR is not a friendly place anymore courtesy china, and arabian region courtesy the 3.5. If they can get it, its worth the 2+2 boat solution in two years.

2 years is a very long time though. who knows how things will look by then.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Dec 2014 10:49

neelam mathews @neelammathews · Dec 18

Indian Navy now has 46 coastal radars https://lnkd.in/eNjbYhP #IndianNavy @raytheon @thales

THE Indian Navy is strengthening the country’s coastal security by installing 46 coastal radar stations and 51 automatic identification centres.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 19 Dec 2014 15:23

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KLcYbv4EI5c/V ... racuda.jpg

Opv for Mauritius. Interestinh design

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Dec 2014 11:32

Coming back on the Barracuda. Per Broadsword:

...

On Saturday, defence shipbuilder, Garden Reach Shipyard & Engineers (GRSE) will hand over to Mauritius a 1,300-tonne offshore patrol vessel (OPV) named “Barracuda”.

....

Even so, the Mauritius coast guard is said to be pleased with the performance of the Barracuda, which has completed a month of sea trials. The GRSE chief says the vessel delivered a top speed of 22.5 knots (42 kilometres per hour), against the customer’s requirement of 20 knots (37 kilometres per hour).

The Barracuda has been designed for the usual OPV tasks --- anti-piracy; anti-smuggling; anti-poaching and search and rescue --- as well as additional tasks specified by Mauritius. The additional capabilities include: pollution response; external fire fighting; and the movement by sea of troops.

Mauritius has asked for a good mix of capabilities on the OPV.

- Really like the concept of a LCU instead of a rigid inflatable. I think aside from Viraat no other IN ship carries one (aside from the amphibs ofcourse).

- Smaller than our older Sukanya class vessels.

- What is the "shark fin" on the stern deck?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Dec 2014 12:25

The Mauritius OPV is one up on US LCS by having containerized mission module that can be carried instead of the second LCU supported by a heavy duty hoist

In addition, RIB can be carried behind the helicopter deck, that has an additional hoist.

The shark fin is a screen to be used along with the stacked plastic chairs for photo ops

Added later - just noticed Gemini RIBs forward of the container & LCU.

Now to nail another of Prasun Sengupta's stupid boasting -
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2011 ... itius.html

The Indian Ministry of Defence’s (MoD) Kolkata-based Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE) has been awarded a contract by the MoD to build a single 75-metre long, 1,150-tonne littoral patrol vessel (LPV) which will be gifted by India to Mauritius/ The LPV, whose design is derived from the Indian Navy’s (IN) Project 25A Kora-class guided-missile corvette, will not be equipped with any guided-missiles, be it for air defence or for anti-ship strike.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Dec 2014 16:30

Mauritius can now land more troops from the ocean than Pak navy

Principal Particulars

Length Overall (m) 74.1 (Approx)
Breadth (m) 11.4
Depth (m) 7.90
Draught (m) 3.50
Displacement (tonne) 1350 (Approx)(Full Load)
Speed (knot) Max 20
Range (tonne) 5000@12 Knots of Economical Speed

Propulsion machinery

Main Engine MTU Diesel Engines 2 x 4300 KW

Power Generation

Diesel Generator Sets 4 X 250 KW, 1 X 80 KW

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Dec 2014 11:44

Today's news says that the High Court in Kerala ordered the Navy not to repeat the stunt where an officer who complained about corruption was dragged to a mental hospital.

Any inside info ? At the very least I would expect the streets in Kochi Naval base to be littered with rolling heads?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Dec 2014 12:57

If the report is accurate,that it is based upon the Kora class missile corvette design/hull,then it is smart thinking,what I suggested in many prev. posts,using proven hulls for a variety of designs/requirements. The sale of 2 FFGs to Vietnam based upon the P-28 Kamorta design is another milestone.These warships could be modified in design to also carry BMos missiles. Exciting possibilities.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/11738/ ... .VJZ-AQDgs

Indian Shipyard To Sell Warships To Vietnam, Eyes $315 Million Philippines Navy Contract
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Friday, December 19, 2014

Indian Shipyard To Sell Warships To Vietnam, Eyes $315 Million Philippines Navy Contract

An Indian shipyard, Garden Reach Ship Builders and Engineers (GRSE) will supply warships to Vietnam and is also eyeing an order worth Rs 2000 crore ($315 million) to export two 3500 tons Frigates to the Philippines Navy.

Vietnam order will be the second export of warships for India. For the Philippines order, GRSE is competing with six foreign ship yards - Navantia, Spain, STX, France and Hyundai, Daewoo, and STX from Korea.

PS:Ck out this report on Vietnam's mil. modernisation programme which includes significant Indian involvement .Any sale of eqpt. to Vietnam asreported above is additional news.
Vietnam’s Russian Restocking: Subs, Ships, Sukhois, and More
Dec 11, 2014
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/vie ... #more-5396

"The sale of at least four patrol vessels comes as part of the $100 million credit line for military extended to Vietnam by India," Rear Admiral AK Verma (retd) Chairman and Managing Director of GRSE said.
These patrol vessels will be about 35 meters in length, 10 meters broad and will have specialized Aluminum Hull. They will be used to patrol the waters close to the shore. Vietnam needs at least seven more such ships and GRSE is expected to get the order for the rest of the ships as well.

Meanwhile, it is already selling a patrol ship - Coast Guard Ship Barracuda - to Mauritius at a cost of Rs. 350 crores ($55 million).

The Barracuda is capable of carrying out a variety of roles such as anti-piracy operations, search and rescue, surveillance missions to prevent smuggling and drug trafficking at sea and transportation of small detachment of troops.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Dec 2014 20:17

^^ No it isn't based on the Kora class. Its hullform is derived from the Sandhayak class.

BTW this is what survey ships in IN have evolved to http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7241/7303 ... 7df1_b.jpg

I'm told its a dream ship to operate with excellent seakeeping, shallow & deepwater performance.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 21 Dec 2014 23:57

Can anyone suggest the size of that LCU and container ? Container can't be more than 20ft can it ?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 22 Dec 2014 00:29

A different perspective of INS Kolkata I came across when reading about the Barracuda ship's export to Mauritius:

Source: Firstpost

Such nice clean lines! It shows the amount of attention paid to reduce RCS and increase stealth.

Any idea when the follow on ships Kochi and Chennai will be commissioned, now that LRSAM is also close to reality?

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 22 Dec 2014 00:42

From the BR homepage, looks like the IN is getting more Dhruvs as well.

200 Choppers to Augment Navy Prowess - New Ind Exp

The Ministry of Defence is augmenting the role and reach of the Indian Navy by acquiring 100 multi role helicopters and 100 naval utility helicopters. An unspecified number of Advanced Light Helicopters (ALH) have also been ordered from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Bengaluru, according to the Deputy Chief of Naval Staff, Vice Admiral R K Pattanaik, AVSM, YSM.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 22 Dec 2014 05:49

Navy seeks US UAVs for ocean surveillance

The Indian Navy has earlier shown interest in acquiring six to eight of the maritime variants of the US high altitude, long endurance (HALE) Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) for extended ocean surveillance. The drones have been upgraded as the MQ-4C Triton maritime surveillance platform for the U.S. Navy, providing real-time intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance over vast ocean and coastal regions.

The Global Hawk has been deployed by the U.S. in Japan, and the U.S. this week approved the sale of four Global Hawks to South Korea. Australia and Japan too have expressed interest in these drones, though Australia later backed out because of the high price.

If the deal goes through, it will be a huge force multiplier for the Indian military in carrying out round-the-clock surveillance of terrorist movements across the border or tracking suspicious vessels in the open seas. Apart from the UAVs, both sides are also working to conclude final negotiations of the $2.5 billion helicopter deal for 22 Apache attack helicopters and 15 Chinook heavy lift helicopters, sources said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2014 09:04

so the expected is happening - good.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 22 Dec 2014 16:53

Sea Harrier Engine:

Naval Aircraft Yard Kochi rolls out 50th Rolls Royce Pegasus engine post overhaul

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Dec 2014 18:25

The "600%" escalation in the cost of IAC-1,the Vikrant -2 is no laughing matter.It also underscores the complexity of designing and building a carrier.The carrier will now cost 19,000 crores instead of the 3,000 cr. envisaged. Whose to say it won't cross 20,000 cr. when finished.We made a huge soing and dance about the Gorky's modernization,that of converting a cruiser-carrier into a genuine flat-top ,grossly underestimating the cost of refurbishment,replacing all wiring etc. However,in the case of a brand new carrier a 600% escalation is astonishing.The other escalating costs of domestic warship construction is also a matter of deep concern as with such huge escalation,budgets go haywire. While we espouse the need to "build in India" to remain self-sufficient,how much of inefficiency can we afford? It also brings into Q what the actual cost of the planned export of warships to Vietnam,etc. will actually cost,esp. the huge escalation in the P-28.

It also brings into sharp focus the cost of the future larger 65K t carriers which may be nuclear powered.Equipping them with EMALS/conventional catapults will cost another cool $B+ why the RN discarded the same for its new QE class ,preferring STOVL F-35Bs.

The article by Vishnu is worth posting in full from the BR news td.

As China Upgrades Navy, India Misses Deadlines and Busts Budgets

All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: December 23, 2014 20:47 IST
As China Upgrades Navy, India Misses Deadlines and Busts Budgets
INS Vikrant leaves the dock of the Cochin Shipyard after the launch ceremony in Kochi last year. (Agence France-Presse)

New Delhi: India's new aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant (named after India's first carrier), has bust its budget by 600 per cent. It will now cost a whopping nearly Rs. 19,000 crore instead of the original estimate of about Rs. 3,000 crore.

The warship, India's first home-built aircraft carrier, is presently being fitted out in Kochi and will be the Navy's flagship once it enters service in a few years.

According to the Standing Committee's report, three major indigenous warship programmes are collectively a whopping Rs. 29,000 crore over budget.

The three destroyers of the Project 15 class, the first of which, INS Kolkata, has just been commissioned, are about Rs. 8,000 crore over-budget. Similarly, corvettes of the Project 28 class, which are being constructed at Garden Reach in Kolkata, will cost about Rs. 8,000 crore instead of Rs. 3,000 crore.

There are several reasons why these cost and time over-runs are taking place. According to the parliamentary committee's report, construction costs for the Kolkata Class destroyers went up because Mazgaon Docks, Mumbai, where the ships were meant to be built, was already constructing other ships. With a delay in the construction of the ships, the cost of materials went up and there was also a delay in the supply of warship-grade steel from Russia along with higher labour costs. Further, the identification and assessment of the costs of weapons and sensors was also delayed and the revised estimated was well over-budget.

Similarly, in the case of the Project 28 corvettes, there was a delay in producing indigenous warship-grade steel, the development of which became a priority because of the massive costs associated with importing this grade of steel from traditional exporters such as Russia. The new, indigenous replacement, developed by the Steel Authority of India was complex to handle and required new techniques in welding. With a further delay in conducting trials of various systems from competing firms, the overall project costs escalated because of an increase in development costs and the decision to use new, state-of-the-art systems.

Construction of the new aircraft carrier Vikrant also suffered because of the non-availability of warship -grade steel. Also, new technologies in constructing aircraft carriers had to be mastered. According to the Standing Committee Report, there was "inadequate domain knowledge" in carrier construction along with the emergence of new technological advances and new generation equipment which needed to be factored in. Most importantly, the report identifies that the government's sanction for the complex project in 2002 came "at a time when the form & fit (of) the warship was still emerging."

The Standing Committee Report points to glaring lapses in the pace of indigenous warship construction particularly at a time when the Chinese Navy is growing at a very fast pace by inducting an entirely new generation of destroyers, corvettes and frigates. To match this, the Indian Navy needs to desperately induct new warships at a faster pace. In 2012, the government's Defence Acquisition Committee had approved 198 ships and submarines for the Indian Navy. The present force level is 127 ships and 15 submarines.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Dec 2014 18:39

^Inflation applies to India as well as Russia. It is not the sole preserve of Russians, who quote inflation while raising prices, like a thug demanding protection money.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Dec 2014 18:59

Philip wrote:The "600%" escalation in the cost of IAC-1,the Vikrant -2 is no laughing matter.It also underscores the complexity of designing and building a carrier.The carrier will now cost 19,000 crores instead of the 3,000 cr. envisaged. Whose to say it won't cross 20,000 cr. when finished.

1. Its a brand new carrier with a far longer service life.
2. Its a modern design with none of the compromises that accompanied the Vikramaditya.
3. At Rs 19,000 crore or $3 billion, its still cheaper than the Gorshkov after factoring in inflation. It'll be cheaper even at Rs 20,000 crore.

We made a huge soing and dance about the Gorky's modernization,that of converting a cruiser-carrier into a genuine flat-top ,grossly underestimating the cost of refurbishment,replacing all wiring etc.

The MiG-29K was bought as a quid pro quo for the 'free' transfer of the Gorshkov. 'We' didn't underestimate the ship's cost, the Russians did. And far from keeping us in the loop, they held off until we were financially committed before slapping us with a demand for $3.2 bn (which we were 'able to negotiate' down to $2.35 bn) while RuN officials made threatening public statements about wanting the ship for themselves.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 24 Dec 2014 21:07

chackojoseph wrote:Sea Harrier Engine:

Naval Aircraft Yard Kochi rolls out 50th Rolls Royce Pegasus engine post overhaul

I saw a Sea Harrier without it's engine and thrust vectoring devices. It was absolutely shocking to see the amount of space devoted for making STVOL happen - almost everything behind the pilot was devoted for just this. It's easy 3x the amount of space for F-16 or Mig-21 engine cavity.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 24 Dec 2014 21:11

Any 50000 ton carrier or ship better be nuclear powered - otherwise the fuel bill will at the minimum be 300 million $ every year.

Nuclear power unit is costlier but it does not expose us to fluctuating oil prices at least. Plus most of it will be an upsizing of Arihant tech except imported Uranium fuel rods while Oil is 100% imported ...

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 24 Dec 2014 21:32

@Nik

Do your math before commenting.

If the fuel bill is $300 million per year, the carrier will have to burn 119 million liters of fuel oil per year. (Fuel oil is today around $300 per barrel. So you can buy 1 million barrels for $300 million. One barrel equals 119 litres)