Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2014 08:08

Some years ago a veteran naval offr. told me that the work as NOIC Bombay he had handled alone with the rank of cmde.was being looked after by 3+ officers and there had been no great increase in the fleet numbers.The increase in numbers of offrs. has actually seen a downturn in fleet condition.I can't understand the chief's statement in the media (before he even visited Vizag)that there was nothing wrong with the vessel.If so why did it sink?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 10 Nov 2014 09:39

Just a thought

can the NOPV rigged to be used as mine sweeper and torpedo recovery vessel? or a copy of it will fit the role. NOPV as well as AOPV looks really big

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2014 09:56

Good idea Symon.In fact the Danish STANFLEX corvettes have multiple features/roles and can be reconfigured very quickly for a variety of duties.The IN should standardize upon hull designs for smaller craft,smaller sized corvettes so that different specs can be incorporated for differeing tasks.The Russians did that with their Tarantula missile boats,same hull for Pauks.With increasing modularity,MCM vessels can also recover torpedoes and the number of mine warfare vessels could thereby be increased,as they could even do coastal patrol duties when required.The IN's design bureau should look for designs that increase commonality of hulls,propulsion,systems,sensors and weaponry.It could make a big difference to supply and inventory of spares ,assist maintenance manpower,etc.

Some more news on the Chinese sub visits to Cbo.
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/141109/column ... 26642.html

What’s the subtext to the Chinese submarine’s Colombo call?

The recent docking of a Chinese submarine at the Colombo port caused much consternation in Sri Lanka. The event also triggered reactions from India, Sri Lanka’s closest neighbour and a regional power. Speculation was rife as to the type of sub, the purpose and dates of its stopover, its destination and its mission. A submarine stopping over in Colombo port is not a commonplace occurrence and hence the public concern is not surprising. Chinese submarine presence in the Indian Ocean is a relatively recent phenomenon.

Not least of the concerns has been the fact that the sub’s arrival, not once but twice within a period of several weeks between Sept and Oct, was kept secret until the media raised questions. If the submarine visit was a non-controversial event, timely information about it from relevant authorities could have prevented needless alarm. In a newspaper interview on Wednesday Sri Lanka’s Navy Commander Jayantha Perera gave details:

“The Chinese submarine Changchen 02 accompanied by another vessel Changxingdao reached Colombo on Sept. 7 for refuelling and crew refreshment. The vessels left on Sept. 13. They were on their way to the Gulf of Aden and waters off Somalia. The same vessels arrived at the Colombo port on Oct. 31. They were to leave today (Nov 5).”

‘Xinhua’ news agency quoted a Chinese Defence Ministry official saying “the Chinese submarine docks during its escort missions in the Gulf of Aden and waters off Somalia” – where anti piracy operations are known to take place.

India’s concerns
The navy chief further said it was not a nuclear sub as reported, but a ‘conventional’ one — meaning that it is powered by diesel and not by means of a nuclear reactor. A ‘nuclear sub’ can remain submerged for several months. It does not require refuelling as its energy supply can last up to 30 years. The only resource that limits the time underwater is the food supply for the crew and maintenance of the vessel, according to Wikipedia. Indian media continued to refer to the vessel that visited Colombo as a nuclear sub, even after assurances to the contrary from Sri Lanka.

India’s concerns over what it called ‘China’s increasing military presence’ were expressed during separate visits last month of Sri Lanka’s Defence Secretary Gotabaya Rajapaksa and Navy Commander Perera to Delhi. Rajapaksa met both India’s National Security Advisor Ajit Dhoval and Defence Minister Arun Jaitley. The navy chief was quoted in Indian media saying, “We will never compromise on (India’s) national security. India’s security is our security.”
The second docking of Chengzheng 2 on its return journey from the Gulf of Aden took place after these meetings, to Delhi’s annoyance. According to the ‘Times of India:’

“Sri Lanka allowed the docking despite NSA Ajit Doval’s warning to Lankan defence secretary Gotabaya Rajapaksa that any presence of a Chinese submarine in Sri Lanka would be unacceptable to India. The government is now left with no option but to look upon Lanka’s defiance as “inimical” to India’s interests.”

A different complexion
An entirely different complexion to the Sino-Lanka relationship, than that which is suggested in the Indian (media) reactions, was given during a seminar held at the Lakshman Kadirgamar Institute on Friday on the subject of the “21st Century Maritime Silk Road.’ The Silk Road initiative was actively canvassed by Chinese President Xi Jinping during his Asian tour in September. It seeks to draw on the historical, cultural and civilisational connectivities associated with the ancient trade route that linked China to the Mediterranean and Arab world.

Sri Lanka’s former Ambassador to China and former Secretary General of SAARC, Nihal Rodrigo in his talk made a fleeting reference to the ‘Chinese vessels in Colombo.’ He said that after Gotabaya Rajapaksa had indicated they posed no threat “it is accepted now that it is to combat certain criminal activities.” Elaborating further on the sidelines of the seminar Rodrigo told the ‘Sunday Times’ that a submarine being in the Indian Ocean was not surprising. “It may be considered routine in a normal situation.” The Defence Secretary was able to explain that this was not some ‘vicious thing’ and we were not ‘plotting with the Chinese’ he said. “Basically the Indians are not sort of screaming about it.”

The whole question of what exactly the dangers in the Indian Ocean are is not clear, according to the former ambassador to Sri Lanka’s Permanent Missions to the UN in New York, Geneva and Vienna. But it is known for certain that people smuggling, drug smuggling and gun running are going on. People smuggling was a huge issue for Australia as well, and Sri Lanka worked with China to curb it, he said. As further evidence of growing acceptance of the importance of Asian connectivity, he cited the Asia Infrastructure Development Bank soon to be set up in China – a kind of alternative to the ADB – whose chief will be an Indian.

Western suspicions
Western perceptions of China’s expanding naval capabilities remain fraught with suspicion. According to the ‘Wall Street Journal’ the first known voyage of a Chinese submarine to the Indian Ocean was in December 2013, when a nuclear powered attack submarine passed through the Malacca Strait, resurfaced near Sri Lanka and then in the Persian Gulf, before returning in February.

“The message was clear: China had fulfilled its four-decade quest to join the elite club of countries with nuclear subs that can ply the high seas.” The article also refers to the deployment of a diesel powered sub in September which stopped off in Sri Lanka. This year China is set to launch a sub carrying nuclear missiles for the first time, WSJ cites the US Office of Naval Intelligence as saying. It adds:

“Beijing isn’t likely to try matching the U.S. sub force, having studied the way the Cold War arms race drained the Soviet Union’s finances. “We’re not that stupid,” says retired Maj. Gen. Xu Guangyu, a former vice president of the People’s Liberation Army Defense Institute. “But we need enough nuclear submarines to be a credible force-to have some bargaining chips.”

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2014 11:06

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/141108/n ... -life-vest

Vizag Naval mishap: Missing officer gave away life vest to a scientist
DC | S.N.V. Sudhir | November 09, 2014,

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 10 Nov 2014 17:00

^
If true, then it is criminal negligence. All aboard should be equipped with vests!

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 10 Nov 2014 17:44

PRESS INFORMATION BUREAU (DEFENCE WING)
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA
*********
SUCCESSFUL FLIGHT TESTING OF LR SAM MISSILE
New Delhi: Kartika 19, 1936
Monday, November 10, 2014

The Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LRSAM) is successfully flight tested against a flying target in a range in Israel, today. Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), Israel has carried out the test in the presence of DRDO scientists and officials of the Indian Armed Forces. The LRSAM system is jointly developed by DRDO and IAI Israel.

All the systems including the radar, communication launch systems and the missile system have performed as expected and hit the target directly and damaged. The system is developed for both Israel Defence Forces and Indian Armed Forces.

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister Dr. Avinash Chander has witnessed the test along with President of IAI Mr. Joseph Weiss and other top officials of Israel Defence Forces. He termed the event as a milestone in the cooperation between two countries in developing advanced weapon systems.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Nov 2014 19:51

Philip wrote:http://www.deccanchronicle.com/141108/n ... -life-vest

Vizag Naval mishap: Missing officer gave away life vest to a scientist
DC | S.N.V. Sudhir | November 09, 2014,

No body would have missed life jackets for the civilians. All civilians have to sign an indemnity bond before they sail on any IN vessel, absolving the IN of all responsibility in the case of any mishaps. This bond and issue of a life jacket are standard procedures.

It may just be that things got a little hectic on deck before the ship sank and the gentleman missed putting on his life jacket.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Nov 2014 03:36

More from the view point of Indian interest:

NATO has no money, capability to buy out Russia-bound Mistral warships – source

FYI:

The idea of buying the Mistral vessels is “absurd from a military point of view” because the ships are “custom-built in accordance with Russian standards, which makes their use by NATO highly problematic and will require additional, expensive refitting,”

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Nov 2014 11:29

NATO has no money.Period.Russia is paying for and will get the ships.France will use sleight of hand methods to deliver the ship.The Russians manning the ship on her trials may just sail away one day with it, escorted by sister ships! France will incur huge penalties for "welshing", which it simply can't afford.

We should use the IÀC hull for a modified amphib. design to suit our needs.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Nov 2014 12:06

http://www.janes.com/article/45511/indi ... mrh-tender

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has chosen Sikorsky's S-70B Seahawk over the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 helicopter to fulfill the Indian Navy's (IN's) long-pending Multi-Role Helicopter (MRH) programme

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 11 Nov 2014 16:39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHjCd4JIwM

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Nov 2014 17:09

SNaik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHjCd4JIwM

Interesting how this slo-mo video shows the fins unfold inches out of the silo.

Will · Post by **Will** » 11 Nov 2014 18:34

kit wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/45511/indi ... mrh-tender

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has chosen Sikorsky's S-70B Seahawk over the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 helicopter to fulfill the Indian Navy's (IN's) long-pending Multi-Role Helicopter (MRH) programme

Looks like the MOD has shot itself in the foot again. Now Sikorsky will hold a gun to their heads.They shld have opened both the financial bids to check who was cheaper.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Nov 2014 19:33

SNaik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHjCd4JIwM

Thanks for link interesting thing to note is it is Hot launch system that is at least the size of Sylver which is far safer system to utilize than cold launch especially when firing large # of missiles to defeat saturation attacks. Also opens door for other missiles like Barak-1 which can be dual or quad packed into them.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Nov 2014 02:40

Will wrote:
kit wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/45511/indi ... mrh-tender

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has chosen Sikorsky's S-70B Seahawk over the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 helicopter to fulfill the Indian Navy's (IN's) long-pending Multi-Role Helicopter (MRH) programme

Looks like the MOD has shot itself in the foot again. Now Sikorsky will hold a gun to their heads.They shld have opened both the financial bids to check who was cheaper.

The sealed financial bid would still have the same numbers as before. If NH90 doesn't meet the service or political requirements, why buy it even if it is 20, 30 or 40% cheaper. Why should IN be saddled with unwanted help just because it may be cheaper? That would be criminal!

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 10:12

INS kolkata have IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar , but i could not locate it on the ship , help please ..

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 12 Nov 2014 11:57

Will Manohar Parrikar scrap the long-pending deal for hi-tech South Korean warships?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 12 Nov 2014 12:22

barak 8 launch videos from IAI -> 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nys7UtLNV90
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4DbLtJKTRk

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 12 Nov 2014 18:02

Shaun wrote:INS kolkata have IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar , but i could not locate it on the ship , help please ..

Yeah I too Checked all my collections ..But I didn't Find

anybody have answers

John · Post by **John** » 12 Nov 2014 18:51

Shaun wrote:INS kolkata have IAI EL/M-2238 L-band STAR surveillance radar , but i could not locate it on the ship , help please ..

It doesn't have 2238 wiki is incorrect.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Nov 2014 19:28

its not only wiki some other sites too, anyway MF STAR is enough , thank you for confirming it

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Nov 2014 03:06

Nikhil T wrote:Will Manohar Parrikar scrap the long-pending deal for hi-tech South Korean warships?

Very interesting, given that he's from Goa and GSL was supposed to be building those MCMVs.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 13 Nov 2014 04:11

JTull wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:Will Manohar Parrikar scrap the long-pending deal for hi-tech South Korean warships?
Very interesting, given that he's from Goa and GSL was supposed to be building those MCMVs.

It is not "Goa" that is the key.. It is "Make in India" that will drive decision more then "Goa".

Cancelling the deal, and building the MCMV's with tech from SouthKorea will be win-win.
- Middlemen angle in the deal neutralized
- Building in India will make it easy to increase order in future.. Without RFQ & negotiations again !!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Nov 2014 09:12

I happened to run across the Wiki page for the Sa'ar 5 class corvette.

1 Phalanx, 8 Harpoon, 64 Barak I, 6 torpedo tubes, MF-STAR AESA, hull-mounted sonar, towed sonar and a hangar for a helicopter. Admittedly, it doesn't have a gun or anti-sub rocket system, and is equipped with only a light helicopter, but otherwise it compares well with the far larger Kamorta class. Perhaps even with the Talwar class. All while displacing a mere 1200 tons.

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Nov 2014 10:10

Wiki says at present after modernization the Sa'ar 5 has CODOG propulsion.,

Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar
Argon ST AN/SLQ-25 Nixie decoy
Elbit chaff rocket launchers
Rafael RF corner reflector
Elisra NS-9003A/9005 RWR

16 Barak 8 surface-to-air missiles
8 RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles
Phalanx CIWS
6 Mark 32 torpedo tubes (Mark 46 torpedoes)

( the 64 baraks were replaced with 16)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 13 Nov 2014 14:08

JTull wrote:
SNaik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHjCd4JIwM
Interesting how this slo-mo video shows the fins unfold inches out of the silo.

Guys, dont you think, the amount of smoke and flame coming out of the silo is very high... Is it like this because of Slo-Mo video or LR-SAM uses some special fuel that has very high burn rate.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Nov 2014 16:01

Due to slow mo mostly imo. See aster15/30 launches also...very fast they go out. Sm2 is slower off the mark.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 13 Nov 2014 19:38

can anybody tell me how many nos of destroyer, frigate, Subs and other ships were required for IN in case of two front wars.

BrijeshB · Post by **BrijeshB** » 13 Nov 2014 21:04

Gurus, pls shed some light on how many Naval Dhruvs, we have been inducted till now..??

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Nov 2014 09:16

Indian MoD opts for S-70B SeaHawk for IN's MRH tender

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has chosen Sikorsky's S-70B Seahawk over the NH Industries (NHI) NH90 helicopter to fulfill the Indian Navy's (IN's) long-pending Multi-Role Helicopter (MRH) programme.

Officials said the NH90 had been excluded from the bidding process because of its commercial links with Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica, which the MoD 'partially banned' from new tenders in July.

...

Official sources told IHS Jane's that only Sikorsky's MRH commercial bid, submitted in 2009-10 along with NHI's, will now be opened by the MoD later this month for a requirement pending since 2007-08. Thereafter, price negotiations for 16 platforms will be opened.

The S-70B is a 10-ton, twin-engine, shipborne platform with advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare capability. Under the terms of the tender, it will be customised for amphibious assault operations and replace the navy's ageing fleet of Westland Sea King Mk42B/C helicopters.

IN officers said MRH numbers were expected to increase to around 100 platforms for deployment aboard newer warships as they were commissioned.

..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Nov 2014 09:28

16 choppers only?
Surely the requirement is for around 50 or so right?
IN has
3 delhi class
3 kolkata class
3 bramhaputra class
3 Godavari class
3 shivalik class,
______________
15 ships
each embarks two 10 tonne choppers: 30 choppers.

Then about 6 for Viraat / Vikramaditya
10 for Vikrant
A few for fleet tenders, Jalashwa, Oilers.

Around 50 or so...

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Nov 2014 10:43

Gagan wrote:16 choppers only?
Surely the requirement is for around 50 or so right?
IN has
3 delhi class
3 kolkata class
3 bramhaputra class
3 Godavari class
3 shivalik class,
______________
15 ships
each embarks two 10 tonne choppers: 30 choppers.

Then about 6 for Viraat / Vikramaditya
10 for Vikrant
A few for fleet tenders, Jalashwa, Oilers.

Around 50 or so...

IB4TL

this seems to be a customized variant ..repeat orders coming up i think for different versions

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Nov 2014 19:16

India, Korean Naval Ships to Conduct Joint Military Exercises - New Indian Express

CHENNAI: Indian and Korean navies have planned to conduct joint exercises to stress friendship between the nations and military co-ordination, a senior Korean naval official today said.

"We have planned to conduct joint exercises with two ships of the Indian Navy. Though we are planning to have the exercises on our way out of Chennai, other details on what exercises and when exactly are being chalked out," Rear Admiral Jungsoo Chun, Commander of the Navy Cruise Training Task Group, told reporters here.

Two naval ships of the Republic of Korean Navy -- ROKS Choi Young and ROKS Cheoji and Indian Navy's destroyer INS Rajput and patrol vessel INS Sumitra would take part in the exercises planned next week, he said.

Interacting with journalists on board ROKS Choi Young, he said Korean Navy did not face any difficulty while sailing in the South China Sea from any country.

China and Vietnam have an acrimonious relationship due to their standoff over the South China Sea, a major source of hydrocarbons. Recently, Vietnam had renewed India's lease of two oil blocks in the South China Sea for another year.

Earlier, school children, Korean community living in Chennai and Indian naval officials welcomed ROKS Choi Young and ROKS Cheoji on their port of call here.

Korean Consul General Kim Kyungsoo from the Consulate General of the Republic of Korea in Chennai along with Indian Navy officials and the city elite welcomed the ships and received Rear Admiral Jungsoo Chun.

"India is our seventh port of call and this is also the first time that any Korean naval ship is calling on the port of Chennai," Rear Admiral Chun said.

The ships on their four-day stay here has many plans including official calls, public ship tour and visit to Indian military bases. "We will also have friendly matches with the Indian Navy," he said.

The Task Group is to navigate a total distance of over 20,240 nautical miles in 12 countries, including India, Myanmar and Russia.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2014 06:35

When I said this no one listened. Now it is on War is Boring!!!!

Whatever You Do, Don’t Buy Your Aircraft Carrier From Russia

India learned the hard way with INS ‘Vikramaditya'

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Nov 2014 08:45

Anything that is approved by David Axe should almost always be taken with a very big spoonful of salt.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 16 Nov 2014 10:02

Gagan wrote:16 choppers only?
Surely the requirement is for around 50 or so right?
IN has
3 delhi class
3 kolkata class
3 bramhaputra class
3 Godavari class
3 shivalik class,
______________
15 ships
each embarks two 10 tonne choppers: 30 choppers.

Then about 6 for Viraat / Vikramaditya
10 for Vikrant
A few for fleet tenders, Jalashwa, Oilers.

Around 50 or so...

It's around 400 of NMRH and NLUH

From Saurav Jha

http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... hases.html

I think S 70 for NMRH and Some other JV with Indian Partners for NLUH

parikh · Post by **parikh** » 16 Nov 2014 12:18

We should negotiate re fuelling / basing rights for IN ships or develop a small port in one of the islands in Fiji during Namo's visit. But onlee for pissful purposes ,anti piracy missions etc etc. Helps in keeping the natives in check from conducting coups against the indics and can serve a future base for our boomers. Open ocean from Fiji to coast of china. Rudraksha Mala strategy in play.
No wonder Chinese are rushing to hold their own summit after Namo leaves.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... d-diaspora

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Nov 2014 12:42

DRDO-built propulsion systems could be installed In Scorpene submarines

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Nov 2014 05:38

India to scrap project for Korean mine hunter vessels Goa Shipyard to build them with foreign help

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Nov 2014 13:58

Viv S wrote:I happened to run across the Wiki page for the Sa'ar 5 class corvette. 1 Phalanx, 8 Harpoon, 64 Barak I, 6 torpedo tubes, MF-STAR AESA, hull-mounted sonar, towed sonar and a hangar for a helicopter. Admittedly, it doesn't have a gun or anti-sub rocket system, and is equipped with only a light helicopter, but otherwise it compares well with the far larger Kamorta class. Perhaps even with the Talwar class. All while displacing a mere 1200 tons.

Check its speed & range. That is where the compromises are. It does not have to transit long distances.

Shrinivasan wrote:Guys, dont you think, the amount of smoke and flame coming out of the silo is very high... Is it like this because of Slo-Mo video or LR-SAM uses some special fuel that has very high burn rate.

Neither. Its hot launched, meaning missile rocket motor fires in the silo, hence the smoke & flame, unlike gas generator cold launch of Russian missiles. There is also an adjacent vent for the hot exhaust.