***Given the fact that volume of discussion is likely to be low, the thread has made 'sticky' so that it stays at the top of the list for quick access and reference***
GUIDELINE
• Project BRF is an attempt to undertake focused discussion(s) on a particular subject matter with the aim of throwing up latest information in the field and the subject matter.
• The subjects chosen under Project BRF are a sub-set of various threads on BRF but the discussion on the subject happens when a development related to it comes to fore and in due course of time the material gets subsumed under the overall discussion in the thread.
• Further, the discussion tends to focus on more ‘glamorous’ topics while lot of advances have been made in various other aspects of the field.
• The discussions also tend to happen on more macro level due to lack of knowledge and we miss out the finer details.
• It is hoped that ‘Project BRF’ will be a platform for focused and detailed discussion on the subject matter.
• The posters are requested to add to the subject matter through research beyond what has been already mentioned here. Plus, there are various aspects of any topic. For example – in this case I’ve covered the development history and current scenario with respect to APFSDS rounds in India. Other aspects of this topic are the technical appraisal of indigenous rounds and benchmark them against foreign rounds. We also need to understand the global trends in this domain like advances in manufacture of high density high LD ratio penetrator.
• It is hoped that the information added in this thread can be converted into an article and hosted on the main page of the forum.
PS: The credit for conjuring up 'Project BRF' name goes to Saik.
Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
A. The Beginning: 105mm APFSDS
1. The Indian quest for APFSDS (Armor-Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) began in 1976 when DRDO initiated work on development of 105mm APFSDS ammunition for Vijayanta Tanks in Indian inventory. It is interesting to note that this development of 105mm APFSDS ammunition itself was a spin-off of the work which started on Arjun MBT program in 1974.
2. The design of this ammunition was finalized and accepted in mid-1982 and it was accepted for use by Indian Army without conducting any trials citing urgent operational matters. Trials were subsequently conducted in late-1982 and no issue was reported at this stage.
3. As a parallel exercise the development of 120mm APFSDS for Arjun MBT was also in advanced stages in 1983.
4. Development work on 105mm ammunition was completed by 1983 and it was decided to establish a new factory to manufacture this ammunition. This new factory would was sanctioned in 1984 and would subsequently become the Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAPP) under the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Trichy.
5. In the interim period before HAPP came into being, it was decided that 2 x DRDO laboratories involved in the development of 105mm APFSDS round would work with OFB to produce the new round. These laboratories are most probably ARDE, Pune and HEMRL, Pune. The targeted production number was 6,000 AFPSDS rounds.
6. However, this first attempt to manufacture the APFSDS was not successful as the manufactured end-product started failing – apart from various other defects in manufacturing process, the failure was also attributed to lack of CNC machines with OFB.
7. The biggest drawback was inability to develop right quality penetrators for the ammunition. While the failure rate was brought down from an average of 10% to 1%, there was gross under-utilization of facilities and as against the target of 6,000 rounds per annum, only about ~800 rounds per annum were produced.
8. This phase of first attempt at production of 105mm APSDS before HAPP came into being lasted from 1983 to 1989.
9. However, production of 105mm APFSDS at HAPP Trichy also faced issues and the rejection rate was very high.
B. Development Cycle – Phase 2:120mm & 125mm APFSDS
1. Heavy Allow Penetrator Project (HAPP) Factory, Trichy was conceived in 1984 for production of high quality kinetic energy rounds for the tanks in service of the Indian Army. While initial requirement was for manufacturing 105mm APFSDS, the factory was also expected to undertake production of APFSDS round for Arjun MBT under development and T-72 tanks from Russia which had made appearance in the Indian Armored Corps inventory.
2. However, the army was in the process of phasing out Vijayanta tanks from service by the time HAPP came online in 1990 and the amount of 105mm APFSDS produced was much less than the installed capacity. As per 1995 CAG Audit Report of HAPP, the average per annum production was not even 10,000 rounds. And this was expected to go down as more Vijayanta tanks were phased out.
3. It is important to note here that when HAPP was established, it had production capacity of 65,000 105mm APFSDS rounds. This capacity was subsequently utilized for production of other caliber APFSDS rounds with 125mm APFSDS round being the prime candidate.
4. 125mm APFSDS
DRDO Name: 125mm Mk1
Indian Army Designation: AMK-340
4.1. In the mid-80s, Indian Army had projected the requirement for indigenous 125mm APFSDS for T-72 and same was under development by DRDO when HAPP came into existence.
4.2. The initial development of 125 mm FSAPDS ammunition was with steel core material and was sanctioned in 1984. The expected date of completion was 1987 which was extended to 1993. This steel core 125mm APFSDS ammunition was trialed by DRDO in 1993.
4.3. Parallel to development of 125mm APFSDS round with steel core, the development of indigenous 125 mm FSAPDS ammunition with soft core material was also taken up by DRDO in 1984 and this ammunition was also developed by 1993. The first series of users’ trial were done in the same year and the results were considered satisfactory.
4.4. The APFSDS round with Soft Core is what finally made into production and this round is referred to as AMK-340 in IA as well as DRDO Mk-1.
4.5. However, as there was a delay in development of indigenous 125mm APFSDS rounds (planned 1987 but users’ trial in 1993), Indian Army signed three contracts to import 125mm APFSDS for T-72 tanks. I have not been able to figure out as which rounds were imported during this period.
4.6. The production of this round was initiated in August 1997 with initial production of 31,000 per annum which was scaled to 40,000 rounds per annum by 1998.
5. 120mm APFSDS:
DRDO: T-1
Army Designation – None known
5.1. The initial attempt to produce 120mm APFSDS round was made by adapting the penetrator from 105mm APFSDS. However, the same was not successful and various combination and permutation of sabots, penetrator and other elements was tried.
5.2. The product development took place between 1983 and 1993 and round was put for user trials in 1993.
5.3. Again, I’ve not come across mention of as to when this round was put into production but it seems the period is likely to be 1996-97.
1. The Indian quest for APFSDS (Armor-Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) began in 1976 when DRDO initiated work on development of 105mm APFSDS ammunition for Vijayanta Tanks in Indian inventory. It is interesting to note that this development of 105mm APFSDS ammunition itself was a spin-off of the work which started on Arjun MBT program in 1974.
2. The design of this ammunition was finalized and accepted in mid-1982 and it was accepted for use by Indian Army without conducting any trials citing urgent operational matters. Trials were subsequently conducted in late-1982 and no issue was reported at this stage.
3. As a parallel exercise the development of 120mm APFSDS for Arjun MBT was also in advanced stages in 1983.
4. Development work on 105mm ammunition was completed by 1983 and it was decided to establish a new factory to manufacture this ammunition. This new factory would was sanctioned in 1984 and would subsequently become the Heavy Alloy Penetrator Project (HAPP) under the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Trichy.
5. In the interim period before HAPP came into being, it was decided that 2 x DRDO laboratories involved in the development of 105mm APFSDS round would work with OFB to produce the new round. These laboratories are most probably ARDE, Pune and HEMRL, Pune. The targeted production number was 6,000 AFPSDS rounds.
6. However, this first attempt to manufacture the APFSDS was not successful as the manufactured end-product started failing – apart from various other defects in manufacturing process, the failure was also attributed to lack of CNC machines with OFB.
7. The biggest drawback was inability to develop right quality penetrators for the ammunition. While the failure rate was brought down from an average of 10% to 1%, there was gross under-utilization of facilities and as against the target of 6,000 rounds per annum, only about ~800 rounds per annum were produced.
8. This phase of first attempt at production of 105mm APSDS before HAPP came into being lasted from 1983 to 1989.
9. However, production of 105mm APFSDS at HAPP Trichy also faced issues and the rejection rate was very high.
B. Development Cycle – Phase 2:120mm & 125mm APFSDS
1. Heavy Allow Penetrator Project (HAPP) Factory, Trichy was conceived in 1984 for production of high quality kinetic energy rounds for the tanks in service of the Indian Army. While initial requirement was for manufacturing 105mm APFSDS, the factory was also expected to undertake production of APFSDS round for Arjun MBT under development and T-72 tanks from Russia which had made appearance in the Indian Armored Corps inventory.
2. However, the army was in the process of phasing out Vijayanta tanks from service by the time HAPP came online in 1990 and the amount of 105mm APFSDS produced was much less than the installed capacity. As per 1995 CAG Audit Report of HAPP, the average per annum production was not even 10,000 rounds. And this was expected to go down as more Vijayanta tanks were phased out.
3. It is important to note here that when HAPP was established, it had production capacity of 65,000 105mm APFSDS rounds. This capacity was subsequently utilized for production of other caliber APFSDS rounds with 125mm APFSDS round being the prime candidate.
4. 125mm APFSDS
DRDO Name: 125mm Mk1
Indian Army Designation: AMK-340
4.1. In the mid-80s, Indian Army had projected the requirement for indigenous 125mm APFSDS for T-72 and same was under development by DRDO when HAPP came into existence.
4.2. The initial development of 125 mm FSAPDS ammunition was with steel core material and was sanctioned in 1984. The expected date of completion was 1987 which was extended to 1993. This steel core 125mm APFSDS ammunition was trialed by DRDO in 1993.
4.3. Parallel to development of 125mm APFSDS round with steel core, the development of indigenous 125 mm FSAPDS ammunition with soft core material was also taken up by DRDO in 1984 and this ammunition was also developed by 1993. The first series of users’ trial were done in the same year and the results were considered satisfactory.
4.4. The APFSDS round with Soft Core is what finally made into production and this round is referred to as AMK-340 in IA as well as DRDO Mk-1.
4.5. However, as there was a delay in development of indigenous 125mm APFSDS rounds (planned 1987 but users’ trial in 1993), Indian Army signed three contracts to import 125mm APFSDS for T-72 tanks. I have not been able to figure out as which rounds were imported during this period.
4.6. The production of this round was initiated in August 1997 with initial production of 31,000 per annum which was scaled to 40,000 rounds per annum by 1998.
5. 120mm APFSDS:
DRDO: T-1
Army Designation – None known
5.1. The initial attempt to produce 120mm APFSDS round was made by adapting the penetrator from 105mm APFSDS. However, the same was not successful and various combination and permutation of sabots, penetrator and other elements was tried.
5.2. The product development took place between 1983 and 1993 and round was put for user trials in 1993.
5.3. Again, I’ve not come across mention of as to when this round was put into production but it seems the period is likely to be 1996-97.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
C. Production & Disaster - 1997-2005
1. The 125mm APFSDS for T-72M1 tanks was most probably put into production in 1997-98 with production capacity of 40,000 per annum. However, there is circumstantial evidence that this production capacity was enhanced to 65,000 APFSDS rounds per annum – the entire production capacity of HAPP, Trichy.
2. However, soon after production was established, disaster of epic proportion struck at OFB. To quote CAG Report of 2003:
4. As per statement of George Fernandez in PIB Release of December 2003 88,000 Hybrid 125mm APFSDS rounds were found to be un-serviceable. However, the indigenous DRDO 125mm Mk-1 round continued to be in production and 130,000 rounds @ 65,000 round per annum were produced between mid-2001 and December 2003.
5. The same PIB release also gives an indication of the holding inventory of APFSDS rounds in the IA – To quote the same press release:
After accounting for the receipt from OFB & ex-Israel, the deficiency for this ammunition, on March 31, 2003 was 3,47,193 rounds.
Israeli import stood at 20,000 rounds while OFB had produced 130,000 rounds. So, the total holding of APFSDS by Indian Army in 2003 stood at ~500,000 rounds.
1. The 125mm APFSDS for T-72M1 tanks was most probably put into production in 1997-98 with production capacity of 40,000 per annum. However, there is circumstantial evidence that this production capacity was enhanced to 65,000 APFSDS rounds per annum – the entire production capacity of HAPP, Trichy.
2. However, soon after production was established, disaster of epic proportion struck at OFB. To quote CAG Report of 2003:
3. The defective rounds were primarily Hybrid Round which was manufactured by OFB by mating foreign penetrator (Russian) with domestic casing using the DRDO design for APFSDS ammunition. This was not the same round developed by DRDO i.e. 120mm T-1 round.In October 2000, an accident occurred to a tank using this ammunition at Babina following its failure, in which the driver of the tank was killed and the tank commander and gunner survived after being critically injured. Following trials conducted on the ammunition, it was found to be of poor quality and unsatisfactory in performance on account of (i) poor quality of the projectile and charger; (ii) the projectile getting detached from its casing on many occasions; (iii) the tendency of the outer casing to leave a burning residue in the gun tube/charger posing a fire hazard. Besides, the performance of the ammunition was also found to be inconsistent and unsatisfactory during zeroing check and in respect of its accuracy, penetration and stowage. A ban was therefore imposed on issue of the ammunition to the units in the five Commands and the Factory was also instructed to suspend its production.
Subsequent investigation by the Directorate General of Quality Assurance revealed that certain lots of the ammunition were of a hybrid version and the remaining lots were of an indigenous version. In January 2002, the Army Headquarters decided all ammunition of the hybrid version would be declared unserviceable and back loaded to the Ordnance Factory Board, while the rejected lots of its indigenous version would be replaced free of cost.
Based on this decision, the Master General of Ordnance branch of the Army Headquarters informed the Army Commands in June 2002 that the ammunition would be rectified/replaced by the Ordnance Factory Board in a phased manner. The latter was also requested to carry out the rectification on fast track basis.
Pending back-loading of the ammunition to the Ordnance Factory in a phased manner, the five Army Commands were holding 1,34,986 shells valued at Rs 607.43 crore under segregated conditions. In respect of 1,23,794 of these shells valued at Rs 557.06 crore, 40 per cent of the shelf life of 10 years had expired while the shelf life of another 11,192 shells valued at Rs 50.36 crore had already been halved.
4. As per statement of George Fernandez in PIB Release of December 2003 88,000 Hybrid 125mm APFSDS rounds were found to be un-serviceable. However, the indigenous DRDO 125mm Mk-1 round continued to be in production and 130,000 rounds @ 65,000 round per annum were produced between mid-2001 and December 2003.
5. The same PIB release also gives an indication of the holding inventory of APFSDS rounds in the IA – To quote the same press release:
After accounting for the receipt from OFB & ex-Israel, the deficiency for this ammunition, on March 31, 2003 was 3,47,193 rounds.
Israeli import stood at 20,000 rounds while OFB had produced 130,000 rounds. So, the total holding of APFSDS by Indian Army in 2003 stood at ~500,000 rounds.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
D. Enter The Yahudis – 1999 and 2003-2010
Israeli Designation – CL 3254M
Indian Army Designation – AMK 340A
1. It is generally believed that Israeli got the foot in the door as far 125mm APFSDS ammunition is concerned during the Kargil War in 1999. This is only one part of the story.
2. As per the CAG Report which reviewed the emergency purchases authorized during Kargil War the Indian Army had trialed the ammunition from Israeli Military Industries (IMI) in August 1996 and initiated process for acquisition in 1997.
3. IA issued RFP for 125mm APFSDS ammunition in 1997 but this initial process for acquisition did not fructify due to various reasons mentioned below:
3.1. Production of AMK-30 round had started in 1997 and the production was to be stabilized at 40,000 rounds from 1998.
3.2. DRDO made representation that performance Mk-1 matched stated performance level of Israeli round and they were working on Mk-2 version of indigenous 125mm APFSDS round. This round would have been superior to Israeli round.
3.3. There was option clause with RVZ Russia for purchase of 26,500 rounds for the tank.
3.4. IA got responses from three manufacturers for the ammunition. One bid was rejected on technical grounds while Russian bid was rejected due to procedural lapses. This left on the Israelis in the fray. By 1998, IA had recommended ToT for Israeli ammunition technology.
3.5. After initial issues with above single vendor situation, the negotiation was started with IMI in 1999 (for offer received in 1997) but the same broke down because IMI did not want to undertake TOT.
3.6. No purchase happened in 1999-2000 due to lack of funds.
4. Using the emergency purchase clause due to 1999 Kargil War, MOD placed orders with IMI for 26,000 125mm APFSDS rounds. The round were delivered in tranches but after the Kargil War was over. This was the first phase of entry of Israeli 125mm APFSDS rounds in the IA service.
5. The fiasco of Hybrid 125mm ammunition by OFB and segregation of close to 140,000 such defective rounds in 2001-2002 coincided with Operation Parakram phase from December 2001 to Q3 2002. This created lacunae in the holding of such ammunition and IA placed a case for import for 20,000 more IMI CL 3254M rounds. Contract for this import was signed in 2003.
6. Combined with 26,000 imports in 1999, the import in 2003 took the total number of rounds imported from IMI to 46,000 rounds.
7. IA had already pitched for TOT for IMI round in 1998 and OFB entered into MOU with IMI in October 2003.
8. As part of this agreement, OFB entered into co-production agreement with IMI to produce the CL 3254M 125mm APFSDS for T-72 tanks.
9. To understand how India gets shafted in such TOT agreements and issues faced with production of Israeli round by OFB, I’m producing the excerpt from CAG Report No 15 of 2010‐2011 (Point 3.3 - Co-production arrangements for FSAPDS12 with IMI):
10.1. HAPP stopped the production of indigenous 125mm Mk-1 APFSDS ammunition. This happened in 2005.
10.2. Due to issues with QC of the finished product, the production of APFSDS ammunition could never stabilize in OFB. As the CAG article states, bulk production was given clearance only in 2009.
10.3. While in Phase II of the contract, OFB was to undertake 44% of the work involved by value, India still continued to import the penetrator blanks from IMI.
E. Current Phase (2010 to present)– Tragedy and Opportunity
(a) Russian 125mm APFSDS Designation – BM-42 ‘Mango’
Indian Army Designation – AMK 339
(b) DRDO 125mm APFSDS Designation – Mk-II
Indian Army Designation – None Known
1. In 2010, IMI was blacklisted by MOD for dubious dealing with OFB Chairman and this put a spanner in the works as far as the production of AMK-340A round was concerned.
2. It has already been mentioned that the production of this round at OFB had not stabilized and after the QC fiasco, bulk production was given clearance only in 2009. When this information is coupled with the fact that production of AMK-340 round had been stopped in 2005, one has a situation where no substantial production of 125mm APFSDS rounds had taken place in 2005-2010 period.
3. Consequently, army was in a tight spot as far as holding of 125mm APFSDS ammunition is concerned. And then we did what we do the best – panic purchase.
4. In 2010, IA issued RFP for purchase of 125mm ammunition on urgent basis – it sought ammunition meeting the performance of AMK-339/BM-42 and AMK-340A/ CL 3254M. Initial requirement was projected for 75,000 – 100,000 rounds to be supplied over 12-18 months.
5. India signed contract with Russia in 2012 for import of 66,000 125mm BM-42 Mango rounds and 25,000 3UBK-Invar missiles. Of these 10,000 missiles were to be imported from Russia while 15,000 missiles were to be bought from BDL Limited.
6. It is said that Russians charged 3x-4x the price for the 125mm ammunition purchased under this contract.
7. DRDO 125mm Mk-2
7.1. When the DRDO Mk-1 125mm round went into production in 1997, it was already working on Mk-2 version of the round. This it was doing without any GSQR for such a product. With TOT for 125mm round leading to suspension of production of DRDO Mk-1/AMK-340, IA was not interested in DRDO Mk-2 round.
7.2. However, DRDO persisted with the development and when ground was literally pulled from below the feet of Army due to IMI blacklisting; this became the only recourse available.
7.3. The CAG Report No.24 of 2011-12 (Defense Services) explains the development of DRDO Mk-2 round:
7.5. One measure of technological progress made by DRDO in development of 125mm APFSDS is the comparison of L:D Ratio of DRDO MK-1 and MK-2 round – this parameter was 14:1 for earlier round while the L:D Ratio of Mk-2 is 20:1.
8. DRDO 120mm Mk-T-2
8.1. DRDO has also developed the Mk-2 version of its earlier 120mm round for Arjun tank.
(Source: The information in this write-up has been sourced from CAG Reports, Parliamentary Standing Committee Reports, DRDO Technology Focus, OFB and earlier discussions on BRF)
Israeli Designation – CL 3254M
Indian Army Designation – AMK 340A
1. It is generally believed that Israeli got the foot in the door as far 125mm APFSDS ammunition is concerned during the Kargil War in 1999. This is only one part of the story.
2. As per the CAG Report which reviewed the emergency purchases authorized during Kargil War the Indian Army had trialed the ammunition from Israeli Military Industries (IMI) in August 1996 and initiated process for acquisition in 1997.
3. IA issued RFP for 125mm APFSDS ammunition in 1997 but this initial process for acquisition did not fructify due to various reasons mentioned below:
3.1. Production of AMK-30 round had started in 1997 and the production was to be stabilized at 40,000 rounds from 1998.
3.2. DRDO made representation that performance Mk-1 matched stated performance level of Israeli round and they were working on Mk-2 version of indigenous 125mm APFSDS round. This round would have been superior to Israeli round.
3.3. There was option clause with RVZ Russia for purchase of 26,500 rounds for the tank.
3.4. IA got responses from three manufacturers for the ammunition. One bid was rejected on technical grounds while Russian bid was rejected due to procedural lapses. This left on the Israelis in the fray. By 1998, IA had recommended ToT for Israeli ammunition technology.
3.5. After initial issues with above single vendor situation, the negotiation was started with IMI in 1999 (for offer received in 1997) but the same broke down because IMI did not want to undertake TOT.
3.6. No purchase happened in 1999-2000 due to lack of funds.
4. Using the emergency purchase clause due to 1999 Kargil War, MOD placed orders with IMI for 26,000 125mm APFSDS rounds. The round were delivered in tranches but after the Kargil War was over. This was the first phase of entry of Israeli 125mm APFSDS rounds in the IA service.
5. The fiasco of Hybrid 125mm ammunition by OFB and segregation of close to 140,000 such defective rounds in 2001-2002 coincided with Operation Parakram phase from December 2001 to Q3 2002. This created lacunae in the holding of such ammunition and IA placed a case for import for 20,000 more IMI CL 3254M rounds. Contract for this import was signed in 2003.
6. Combined with 26,000 imports in 1999, the import in 2003 took the total number of rounds imported from IMI to 46,000 rounds.
7. IA had already pitched for TOT for IMI round in 1998 and OFB entered into MOU with IMI in October 2003.
8. As part of this agreement, OFB entered into co-production agreement with IMI to produce the CL 3254M 125mm APFSDS for T-72 tanks.
9. To understand how India gets shafted in such TOT agreements and issues faced with production of Israeli round by OFB, I’m producing the excerpt from CAG Report No 15 of 2010‐2011 (Point 3.3 - Co-production arrangements for FSAPDS12 with IMI):
10. There were three big fall-outs of this TOT deal with IMI for 125mm APFSDS ammunition –In the phase I, the work share of OFB was to provide Primer and Igniter (US$ 17), Stub Case (US$ 41), Assembly of complete round, Test (US$ 56), Packaging, Transportation and Proof Cost (US$ 40). Compared to this, IMI was required to supply complete penetrator assembly (US$ 508) and Combustible Cartridge Case and Propellant (US$ 227).
In Phase II, IMI was required to supply blank penetrator (US$ 278). Machining & complete penetrator assembly (US$ 215) was required to be done by the OFB. Thus in effect, in phase I, OFB was essentially required to assemble the final product.
A contract agreement was signed between OFB and IMI Israel in September 2004 for supply of 15,000 units MK-I FSAPDS 125mm anti-tank ammunition in two phases. The first batch assembled in India was subjected to proof test in May 2005. Controller of Quality Assurance (Ammunition) did not accord Bulk Production Clearance as it failed in the proof test. Meanwhile, in the Target Fixation meeting for 2005-06 held in January 2005, it was decided that OFB would supply further 30,000 of the ammunition during 2005-06 (cumulative 45,000). Though the consignment of 15,000 units was awaiting Bulk Production Clearance from inspectorate authority, OFB imported further 30,000 units in September 2005 valuing Rs 99.34 crore (US$22 million) at the Phase-I rate. 45,000 units valuing Rs 141 crore were still lying idle as of May 2010.
Without stabilizing the co-production of FSAPDS from the first consignment of imported components, OFB’s procurement of 30,000 additional units worth Rs 99.34 crore and MOD’s sanction thereof was a case of wrong judgment.
Though it was repeatedly mentioned by OFB and MOD at the time of processing of case that the agreement was meant for ‘co-production and co-development’ of 125mm FSAPDS, the details of work-share worked out by OFB indicated that it was neither a co-development nor co-production in the initial phases. The share of IMI to OFB was 83 per cent to 17 per cent. Further, the 17 per cent contribution of OFB was insignificant.
Between 2001 and 2003, Army had directly procured 46000 rounds of 125 mm FSAPDS from IMI Israel without any problem relating to quality. DGQA was the Inspection authority also for imported ammunition. The ammunition was acceptable both DGQA and Army. However, when the ammunition against the agreement dated September 2004 was received by OFB, both DGQA and Army could not clear the ammunition. Ministry remained the silent spectator during the whole process and failed to resolve the issue which resulted in 45000 units of FSAPDS worth Rs 141 crore lying idle. The ammunition procured by OFB and Army were proven products and were supplied by the same supplier. Ministry replied that bulk production clearance was accorded in June 2009 and in view of the selective permission for business dealings with IMI, the preparatory action was being taken.
10.1. HAPP stopped the production of indigenous 125mm Mk-1 APFSDS ammunition. This happened in 2005.
10.2. Due to issues with QC of the finished product, the production of APFSDS ammunition could never stabilize in OFB. As the CAG article states, bulk production was given clearance only in 2009.
10.3. While in Phase II of the contract, OFB was to undertake 44% of the work involved by value, India still continued to import the penetrator blanks from IMI.
E. Current Phase (2010 to present)– Tragedy and Opportunity
(a) Russian 125mm APFSDS Designation – BM-42 ‘Mango’
Indian Army Designation – AMK 339
(b) DRDO 125mm APFSDS Designation – Mk-II
Indian Army Designation – None Known
1. In 2010, IMI was blacklisted by MOD for dubious dealing with OFB Chairman and this put a spanner in the works as far as the production of AMK-340A round was concerned.
2. It has already been mentioned that the production of this round at OFB had not stabilized and after the QC fiasco, bulk production was given clearance only in 2009. When this information is coupled with the fact that production of AMK-340 round had been stopped in 2005, one has a situation where no substantial production of 125mm APFSDS rounds had taken place in 2005-2010 period.
3. Consequently, army was in a tight spot as far as holding of 125mm APFSDS ammunition is concerned. And then we did what we do the best – panic purchase.
4. In 2010, IA issued RFP for purchase of 125mm ammunition on urgent basis – it sought ammunition meeting the performance of AMK-339/BM-42 and AMK-340A/ CL 3254M. Initial requirement was projected for 75,000 – 100,000 rounds to be supplied over 12-18 months.
5. India signed contract with Russia in 2012 for import of 66,000 125mm BM-42 Mango rounds and 25,000 3UBK-Invar missiles. Of these 10,000 missiles were to be imported from Russia while 15,000 missiles were to be bought from BDL Limited.
6. It is said that Russians charged 3x-4x the price for the 125mm ammunition purchased under this contract.
7. DRDO 125mm Mk-2
7.1. When the DRDO Mk-1 125mm round went into production in 1997, it was already working on Mk-2 version of the round. This it was doing without any GSQR for such a product. With TOT for 125mm round leading to suspension of production of DRDO Mk-1/AMK-340, IA was not interested in DRDO Mk-2 round.
7.2. However, DRDO persisted with the development and when ground was literally pulled from below the feet of Army due to IMI blacklisting; this became the only recourse available.
7.3. The CAG Report No.24 of 2011-12 (Defense Services) explains the development of DRDO Mk-2 round:
7.4. This ammunition is expected to go into production in 2015.Ministry of Defence, Department of Defence Research and Development (DDRD) in May 1996 sanctioned the above project at a cost of INR 2.30 crore to be completed by May 1998. It was sanctioned by DRDO without GSQR from Army HQ. The project after four revisions of probable date of completion (PDC) and three cost revisions, was closed in December 2004 after an expenditure INR 7.27 crore. The ammunition developed by the Laboratory did not meet the Users’ requirement as Users expressed an apprehension as to whether the trials conducted for MK-II ammunition in the absence of GSQR for this ammunition would qualify as user trials.
To resolve the issue, the ammunition was subjected to Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in August 2007 which again proved to be unsatisfactory. Ministry of Defence in its reply in February 2011 stated that trials with 30 rounds of improved ammunition, have been successfully completed in May 2010 and Army HQ has given go ahead for accelerated user trials with 500 rounds of the improved ammunition. Ministry’s reply should be viewed in the background of the fact that even after a lapse of 15 years the ammunition is yet to be inducted. Such ammunition is still being imported by Army.
7.5. One measure of technological progress made by DRDO in development of 125mm APFSDS is the comparison of L:D Ratio of DRDO MK-1 and MK-2 round – this parameter was 14:1 for earlier round while the L:D Ratio of Mk-2 is 20:1.
8. DRDO 120mm Mk-T-2
8.1. DRDO has also developed the Mk-2 version of its earlier 120mm round for Arjun tank.
(Source: The information in this write-up has been sourced from CAG Reports, Parliamentary Standing Committee Reports, DRDO Technology Focus, OFB and earlier discussions on BRF)
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
(1) DRDO APFSDS Rounds.
- Left round in top right corner is 125mm Mk-2 while the one in right is Mk-1 (soft core). In between is the charge for the round(s).
- The one in bottom left corner is DRDO 120mm Mk-1 round for Arjun tank.
(source: defenceforumindia.com)
(2) Close-up of DRDO 125mm Mk-2 round.
(source: militaryphotos.net)
(3) IMI 125mm round (CL 3254M) manufactured by OFB.
(4) One left - Russian 3VBM-17 round with 3BM-42 Projectile. On right - supposed to be advanced version with unconfirmed name of 3BM-42M (source - fofanov)
- Left round in top right corner is 125mm Mk-2 while the one in right is Mk-1 (soft core). In between is the charge for the round(s).
- The one in bottom left corner is DRDO 120mm Mk-1 round for Arjun tank.
(source: defenceforumindia.com)
(2) Close-up of DRDO 125mm Mk-2 round.
(source: militaryphotos.net)
(3) IMI 125mm round (CL 3254M) manufactured by OFB.
(4) One left - Russian 3VBM-17 round with 3BM-42 Projectile. On right - supposed to be advanced version with unconfirmed name of 3BM-42M (source - fofanov)
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
aha, fantastic effort. 
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Great Effort Rohit , Quite a comprehensive write up on Indian APFSDS effort.
BTW what is the TOT that OFB expects and wants from IMI on APFSDS , No one will ever give TOT for APFSDS that involves the metallurgy , design and data set involved in making these rounds ..these are absolute trade secret that no one will every part with.
What best OFB can expect is Lic Mauf and machining of these rounds from imported blanks and equipment from OEM. That OFB can make these and in due process learn to make similar better or subpar round is purely their effort as long as it does not infringes on the IP.
To understand why no one will part with such technology can be seen by the fact that DRDO took around 15 years to develop the Mk2 round , other nations would have taken similar time to develop rounds of these caliber plus/minus some time.
BTW what is the TOT that OFB expects and wants from IMI on APFSDS , No one will ever give TOT for APFSDS that involves the metallurgy , design and data set involved in making these rounds ..these are absolute trade secret that no one will every part with.
What best OFB can expect is Lic Mauf and machining of these rounds from imported blanks and equipment from OEM. That OFB can make these and in due process learn to make similar better or subpar round is purely their effort as long as it does not infringes on the IP.
To understand why no one will part with such technology can be seen by the fact that DRDO took around 15 years to develop the Mk2 round , other nations would have taken similar time to develop rounds of these caliber plus/minus some time.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
>> 4.5. However, as there was a delay in development of indigenous 125mm APFSDS rounds (planned 1987 but users’ trial in 1993), Indian Army signed three contracts to import 125mm APFSDS for T-72 tanks. I have not been able to figure out as which rounds were imported during this period.
I am not sure but wouldn't these be the BM-42 mango ? IIRC the mango was one of the rounds arjun's kanchan was tested against back in the 80's.
I am not sure but wouldn't these be the BM-42 mango ? IIRC the mango was one of the rounds arjun's kanchan was tested against back in the 80's.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Great thread, great work rohit. Will add more details later this weekend.
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Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Two observations:
1. This thread, academic though it is, remains fundamentally incomplete without the RHA penetration values of the different ammunition.
Credible data will be highly classified, and manner of data on the internet is highly suspect.
2. 125mm/120mm is not the only class of APFSDS the Army is seeking.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 280410.pdf
1. This thread, academic though it is, remains fundamentally incomplete without the RHA penetration values of the different ammunition.
Credible data will be highly classified, and manner of data on the internet is highly suspect.
2. 125mm/120mm is not the only class of APFSDS the Army is seeking.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 280410.pdf
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Austin - thanks.Austin wrote:Great Effort Rohit , Quite a comprehensive write up on Indian APFSDS effort. <SNIP>
Given the fact that you're one of few people who understand the APFSDS scenario as well the technical side of it, request you to contribute to it.
We need to explore the global trends in 2-piece 125mm APFSDS as well as 120mm caliber round.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
This is the DRDO Mk-1 which was put into production in 1997-98 and discontinued in 2005.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Rajit O - you're points are well taken.RajitO wrote:Two observations:
1. This thread, academic though it is, remains fundamentally incomplete without the RHA penetration values of the different ammunition.
Credible data will be highly classified, and manner of data on the internet is highly suspect.
2. 125mm/120mm is not the only class of APFSDS the Army is seeking.
http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 280410.pdf
The idea is to contribute to the thread and widen the body of knowledge - as you're done by giving reference to 30mm APFSDS. I had not even touched this topic. Please feel free to add to the topic.
Further - coming to the RHA penetration values and other technical parameters, it is expected that other more technically conversant posters will add these points. And internet is all we have - even if the values are not 100% correct, they act as good reference point to understand the drift of the subject.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
OFB Ammunition:
1) 120mm APFSDS round for Arjun:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/23.htm
2) DRDO Mk-1 round which was discontinued in 2005:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/26.htm
3) Israeli 125mm round CL 3254M manufactured by OFB:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/37.htm
1) 120mm APFSDS round for Arjun:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/23.htm
2) DRDO Mk-1 round which was discontinued in 2005:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/26.htm
3) Israeli 125mm round CL 3254M manufactured by OFB:
http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /lc/37.htm
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Do we really want to get RHAe penetration, even if open source? These rounds are after all going to be the mainstay of the Indian Army for quite a time to come.. even the RFIs don't mention those. Of course, sources on the net do have estimates for the foreign rounds.. but just a bit wary is all.. because its really not that hard for a foreign agency to put a 10-15% sparing factor on osint estimates, and use that to uparmor their vehicles. Defeating the very purpose of acquisition. Like radar ranges, this could be something we could perhaps leave aside..voluntarily.
Now some quick points - the soft core penetrator mentioned by DRDO (the first 125mm FSAPDS it made) is basically referring to it being a tungsten penetrator. They use the term soft core interchangeably, perhaps to refer to the alloy properties, relative to some earlier one they might have employed . The same way Kanchan was often referred to as lightweight Kanchan composite armor (with reference to it being lighter when compared to a pure steel armor offering the same protection).
Arjun FSAPDS (as mentioned in OFB link above) was developed way back in the 90's - first ones as mentioned in trials circa 1993, with production starting (LSP for extensive gun trials) around 2000. By 2008, there were reports that Arjuns had fired around 7000 rounds in trials (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/arjun ... vt/376719/) a pretty mind boggling figure if they were all main gun rounds (majority would be FSAPDS).
However, the point is that this round is now pretty long in the tooth, and is slated to be replaced in conjunction with MK2 induction. A new round is being developed with a new penetrator. ("Enhanced ammunition penetrator" http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/u ... rk-ii.html)
Basically, thanks to keeping the 125mm MK2 round running, DRDO will now have the technology to leverage for the Arjun MK2 as well - without having to look abroad.
Now some quick points - the soft core penetrator mentioned by DRDO (the first 125mm FSAPDS it made) is basically referring to it being a tungsten penetrator. They use the term soft core interchangeably, perhaps to refer to the alloy properties, relative to some earlier one they might have employed . The same way Kanchan was often referred to as lightweight Kanchan composite armor (with reference to it being lighter when compared to a pure steel armor offering the same protection).
Arjun FSAPDS (as mentioned in OFB link above) was developed way back in the 90's - first ones as mentioned in trials circa 1993, with production starting (LSP for extensive gun trials) around 2000. By 2008, there were reports that Arjuns had fired around 7000 rounds in trials (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/arjun ... vt/376719/) a pretty mind boggling figure if they were all main gun rounds (majority would be FSAPDS).
However, the point is that this round is now pretty long in the tooth, and is slated to be replaced in conjunction with MK2 induction. A new round is being developed with a new penetrator. ("Enhanced ammunition penetrator" http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/11/u ... rk-ii.html)
Basically, thanks to keeping the 125mm MK2 round running, DRDO will now have the technology to leverage for the Arjun MK2 as well - without having to look abroad.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Further confirmation of upgraded Arjun ammo.
125mm MK-II Technical trials done, user trials ongoing.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... signer.htm
The major upgrades in Arjun Mark II include the panoramic sight with night vision to attack targets at night, missile-firing capability against long-range targets, an anti-aircraft gun to shoot down helicopters, higher penetration ammunition, sensors to detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and a plough to weed out mines. It will take a few more months before all the user trials are completed.
FSAPDS ammunition is the most lethal kinetic energy ammunition, capable of destroying all known tank armour up to direct shooting range. The 125 mm FSAPDS (soft core) ammunition has been successfully designed and developed for enhancing the fire power of existing T-72 tank. For T series tanks FSAPDS. DRDO has developed a soft core FSAPDS Mk I for For T72 Russian tanks. Technical trials for Mark II have been done and user trials are on. Production should begin by 2015. After 2015 we will be able to reduce import dependency. For Arjun FSAPDS is totally developed by ARDE.
125mm MK-II Technical trials done, user trials ongoing.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... signer.htm
The major upgrades in Arjun Mark II include the panoramic sight with night vision to attack targets at night, missile-firing capability against long-range targets, an anti-aircraft gun to shoot down helicopters, higher penetration ammunition, sensors to detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and a plough to weed out mines. It will take a few more months before all the user trials are completed.
FSAPDS ammunition is the most lethal kinetic energy ammunition, capable of destroying all known tank armour up to direct shooting range. The 125 mm FSAPDS (soft core) ammunition has been successfully designed and developed for enhancing the fire power of existing T-72 tank. For T series tanks FSAPDS. DRDO has developed a soft core FSAPDS Mk I for For T72 Russian tanks. Technical trials for Mark II have been done and user trials are on. Production should begin by 2015. After 2015 we will be able to reduce import dependency. For Arjun FSAPDS is totally developed by ARDE.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
karan, can I prod you into doing a 'project brf' on the arjun ? there's quite a bit in the Mk2 that's not clear.
google searches throw up >50% deff n dumb fora links.
a completely unacceptable situation.
google searches throw up >50% deff n dumb fora links.
a completely unacceptable situation.Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
A fair article by Rohitvats, well balanced for pointing out problems with ARMY tendency to import and OFB mess even when they are just labelling the imports.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Rohit I will try to put of info as I come across
Russian 125mm APFSDS Designation – BM-42 ‘Mango’ ( Indian Army Designation – AMK 339 )
Russian 125mm APFSDS Designation – BM-42 ‘Mango’ ( Indian Army Designation – AMK 339 )
Viktor Murakhovsky on the tests of 3BM42 APFSDS "Mango"
" 125-mm 3VBM17 round with 3BM42 APFSDS projectile «Mango» was put into service in 1986. The advanced power projectile is designed to modern updated armored vehicles with combined armor protection. It has complicated structure, which includes solid ballistic and armor-piercing cap, armor-piercing damper and two penetrators made of high-duty tungsten alloy.
The penetrators are fixed in the hull by a steel body made of low-melting- temperature alloy. When it penetrates, the steel body melts and the penetrators move to the penetrating pipe without consuming energy to leave the hull.The sabot is madeof V-96C1 alloy with advanced characteristics.
When the projectile was tested the projectile engaged a multilayered armor, which simulates the armor of than cutting-edge tanks: seven- layer armor at an angle of 30 and 60 degrees; three-layer armor at an angle of 65 degrees; steel homogenous armor plate. The tests proved that the 3BM42 APFSDS projectile penetrated the armor which is the same as used in the main battle tanks M1, M1A1 «Abrams» etc. "
It continue specifying that the round had a guaranteed piercing performance, at a distance of 2000 m and 0/60 degrees of 450/230 mm and an average piercing performance at a Distance of 2000 m always at 0 degrees of 500 mm.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
From RFI at CII website , Has good details on AMK 339 & AMK 340A
http://www.ciidefence.com/pdf/RFI/RFI-P ... DS-AMN.pdf
http://www.ciidefence.com/pdf/RFI/RFI-P ... DS-AMN.pdf
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
SM group makes combustible cartridge cases for both 120mm FSAPDS(ARJUN) and 125mm FSAPDS (T-72 & T-90)
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/125mm.htm
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/120mm.htm
it is also engaged in cartridges for 155mm bimodular charges.
their site : http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/index.htm
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/125mm.htm
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/120mm.htm
it is also engaged in cartridges for 155mm bimodular charges.
their site : http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/index.htm
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
India also imported at least 3000 DU rounds from Israel
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Problem is once i start, i would want to do a referenced detailed compendium. The only thing is next few months are gonna be really tied up, so perhaps early next year? On the plus side, we have a lot of the info about the project now.Rahul M wrote:karan, can I prod you into doing a 'project brf' on the arjun ? there's quite a bit in the Mk2 that's not clear.
google searches throw up >50% deff n dumb fora links.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
There is another Indian company active in similar kind of activity.Maspack Ltd.pragnya wrote:SM group makes combustible cartridge cases for both 120mm FSAPDS(ARJUN) and 125mm FSAPDS (T-72 & T-90)
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/125mm.htm
http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/120mm.htm
it is also engaged in cartridges for 155mm bimodular charges.
their site : http://www.smgroupindia.com/ccc/index.htm
http://www.maspackindia.net/
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
A unique aspect of Indian 125mm APFSDS design is that we've not followed the Russian design philosophy in this regard.
The Russian APFSDS (including 3BM-42 Mango) has a single point of contact with gun barrel (ring shaped sabot) while western and Israeli APFSDS rounds have contact at two points. They have a spindle shaped sabot - and we've followed the same design philosophy.
The Russian APFSDS (including 3BM-42 Mango) has a single point of contact with gun barrel (ring shaped sabot) while western and Israeli APFSDS rounds have contact at two points. They have a spindle shaped sabot - and we've followed the same design philosophy.
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Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
There is a Belgian company MECAR that makes a 30mm APFSDS for the BMP-2's 30mm cannon. Brochure below
http://www.mecar.be/data/115685648930mmM929.pdf
Given all the complexities of designing such a munition for higher calibers, I can't imagine a lighter weight, burst-fired munition will be technologically simpler.
The issue on RHA is not that is technical in nature or confidential (by definition, this forum deals with publicly available material). Just as you want to know whether a SAM can engage a threat at 200 feet, or at 80,000 feet or both (neither giving a 100% Pk), analyzing different munitions would be less theoretical if one knows what levels of armor it can defeat.
http://www.mecar.be/data/115685648930mmM929.pdf
Given all the complexities of designing such a munition for higher calibers, I can't imagine a lighter weight, burst-fired munition will be technologically simpler.
The issue on RHA is not that is technical in nature or confidential (by definition, this forum deals with publicly available material). Just as you want to know whether a SAM can engage a threat at 200 feet, or at 80,000 feet or both (neither giving a 100% Pk), analyzing different munitions would be less theoretical if one knows what levels of armor it can defeat.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Well done Rohit!
I think another apt Project BRF topic would be ORBAT of the Indian Armed Forces
I think another apt Project BRF topic would be ORBAT of the Indian Armed Forces
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
I would rather concentrate on the paki one.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Any idea what is the pros and cons of each approach ?rohitvats wrote:A unique aspect of Indian 125mm APFSDS design is that we've not followed the Russian design philosophy in this regard.
The Russian APFSDS (including 3BM-42 Mango) has a single point of contact with gun barrel (ring shaped sabot) while western and Israeli APFSDS rounds have contact at two points. They have a spindle shaped sabot - and we've followed the same design philosophy.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Thanks.srai wrote:Well done Rohit!
I think another apt Project BRF topic would be ORBAT of the Indian Armed Forces
Coming to ORBAT compendium - first it is a very tedious job and second, the real meat comes into picture only when one goes into micro level analysis.
In case of Indian Army/Armed Forces - I suggest we do more of 'Know your Army' kind of topic where we add information at appropriate level to make sense to serious readers.
For PA - we can do a micro-level analysis. As it is, apart from some basic information floating around, we've no done detailed analysis of PA on the lines of Indian Services. Apart from the ORBAT thing, we can undertake topics like status and modernization of PA Armored Corps, APFSDS Ammunition, artillery and other assets.
Transition underway in PAF is another topic where various sub-topics can be undertaken.
We can create a data base and reference documents for such things.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Karan M wrote:Problem is once i start, i would want to do a referenced detailed compendium. The only thing is next few months are gonna be really tied up, so perhaps early next year? On the plus side, we have a lot of the info about the project now.Rahul M wrote:karan, can I prod you into doing a 'project brf' on the arjun ? there's quite a bit in the Mk2 that's not clear.
google searches throw up >50% deff n dumb fora links.
Perfect is the enemy of the best. Do an article, post it and slow keep on improving it on the thread itself.Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
My understanding is that spindle design improves accuracy & stability over long range and has better penetration at higher slant angles. The con is slower speed, higher weight etc. Also Indian designs seem to be evolutionary improvements of Sabot round fired from Vijyanta L7 gun, so may be carrying the same heritage.Austin wrote:Any idea what is the pros and cons of each approach ?rohitvats wrote:A unique aspect of Indian 125mm APFSDS design is that we've not followed the Russian design philosophy in this regard.
The Russian APFSDS (including 3BM-42 Mango) has a single point of contact with gun barrel (ring shaped sabot) while western and Israeli APFSDS rounds have contact at two points. They have a spindle shaped sabot - and we've followed the same design philosophy.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
If I understand things correctly from Rohitvats article then OFB messed up screw driver assembly of ammunition worth Rs. 1000 crore both from Russia and Israel. Makes me wonder why we cannot give these deals to Private sector, at-least they will not fxxk up simple assembly as their @ss will be on line for Penalities. Also for a requirement worth around Rs 5000 crore the DRDO budget - spend seems to be measly Rs 7 crore.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
^^ Why do we assume that if OFB screws up screw driver technology some Pvt players would just jump in to do a better job , the terms and conditions , profit and long term sustainable work provided might just be killer for any pvt player if they are not profitable or for most private player venturing into this forte will not be part of their business plans unless GOI is willing to subsides them in long run like they do for PSUs
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Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Sabot is descarded soon after the round leaves the MBT barrel that is what DS stands for in APFSDS.
Anyways this is what Fofanov has to say on Ru and Western designs
"The principal difference of most Soviet APFSDS rounds from the Western ones was that the former used bore-riding fins and the sabot had only one area of contact with the barrel, while the latter overwhelmingly use spool shaped sabots that touch the barrel in two areas and therefore can afford to have subcaliber fins. At first glance there are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. In Soviet model, the sabot can be made much lighter and therefore the loss of gunpowder energy on acceleration of parasitic mass is smaller. On the other hand, large bore-riding fins produce a high ballistic drag causing severe decceleration of the projectile in flight and affecting stability. The developments of the last decades have shown that the Western approach seems to be more sound. Newest 125mm rounds have moved away from bore-riding fins, and there are many foreign variants of 125mm APFSDS rounds utilizing spool-shaped sabots.
"
Following is an image of Ru BM15 round.
The Sabot shears off in multiple petals as soon as it leaves the barrel it is only there to trap gases and propel the penetrator until it leaves the muzzle, Fofanov says that Ru rounds have larger fins i.e. they ride the bore. I am not sure if the fins are actually big enough to ride the bore from the pic it is hard to tell .
American M829 round has a long spindle shaped sabot and has two contact points, makes sense as the fins are sub-caliber and they have longer penetrator so would need stabilization in the muzzle.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829-3.jpg
Anyways this is what Fofanov has to say on Ru and Western designs
"The principal difference of most Soviet APFSDS rounds from the Western ones was that the former used bore-riding fins and the sabot had only one area of contact with the barrel, while the latter overwhelmingly use spool shaped sabots that touch the barrel in two areas and therefore can afford to have subcaliber fins. At first glance there are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. In Soviet model, the sabot can be made much lighter and therefore the loss of gunpowder energy on acceleration of parasitic mass is smaller. On the other hand, large bore-riding fins produce a high ballistic drag causing severe decceleration of the projectile in flight and affecting stability. The developments of the last decades have shown that the Western approach seems to be more sound. Newest 125mm rounds have moved away from bore-riding fins, and there are many foreign variants of 125mm APFSDS rounds utilizing spool-shaped sabots.
"
Following is an image of Ru BM15 round.
The Sabot shears off in multiple petals as soon as it leaves the barrel it is only there to trap gases and propel the penetrator until it leaves the muzzle, Fofanov says that Ru rounds have larger fins i.e. they ride the bore. I am not sure if the fins are actually big enough to ride the bore from the pic it is hard to tell .
American M829 round has a long spindle shaped sabot and has two contact points, makes sense as the fins are sub-caliber and they have longer penetrator so would need stabilization in the muzzle.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829-3.jpg
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
OFB can screw up anything without consequences of any sort. Pvt Sector has to suffer financially.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
There is a reasonable introduction to Apfsds on Wikipedia. I had no idea what the acronyms meant so spent an hour reading Wikipedia links.
Rohit, would that be background enough to start reading n understanding this thread?
On another note, is there some place - like a military equivalent of Wikipedia - which gives basic definitions and overview of military topics?
In particular what is Orbat? I know what the acronym expands to but what does it mean? What are all the issues and why would one want to carry out this exercise?
Sorry for basic questions but pointers will do.
Thanks
Rohit, would that be background enough to start reading n understanding this thread?
On another note, is there some place - like a military equivalent of Wikipedia - which gives basic definitions and overview of military topics?
In particular what is Orbat? I know what the acronym expands to but what does it mean? What are all the issues and why would one want to carry out this exercise?
Sorry for basic questions but pointers will do.
Thanks
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Negi, wiki says the fins actually ride the bore in Russian design, ring sabot thus centering the projectile in the barrel.
Re: Project BRF - Indian APFSDS Ammunition Scenario
Great job rohit!rohitvats wrote: PS: The credit for conjuring up 'Project BRF' name goes to Saik.
But I must claim credit for the "Projects" idea.
Initial idea.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1525759
More detail.I think there needs to be a forum in here called "BR Projects". This can be for people who want to do something tangible rather than just gupshup. Projects can be discussion over fixing wikipedia entries, translating Urdu Paki newspapers (we had this around 2006) etc etc.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1526585
Saikullah's post was after this
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1526608
I should have patented this.
In any case, koti shaabashes to you for following up with a concrete project and putting in the time.