Mangalyaan: ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

[member_23901]

Quite unlike the other forum posts, this section has turned into a more chit-chat section rather than the technology discussion point.
Haters can hate. Leftists and Britons can go sell their own homes to feed the poor.
I rather like my tax money used for the space program rather then Govt's pet programs like NREGA where most of the money is going in to the pockets of we know who.

Sincerely request the members to kindly stick to technical discussions.

[disha]

Gurus, could someone please elaborate on the course correction happened between 3rd stage and 4th stage phase. That's was some bloody awesome trick pulled by PSLV.

After seeing the huge deviation, I almost gave up watching the launch. Also during that period the graph plot went offline because of non-availability of data from Nalanda.

So, how that course correction happened? Is it the embedded software that self corrected the course? Or, once data came online ISRO sent commands to correct the course? How this happened?

Thanks for your gyan.

That trick is called "closed loop guidance system" and "ring laser gyroscopes" (RLGs) and "mathematics".

Basically closed loop guidance keeps on checking at every interval how much deviation is there from the path and then course corrects. Also for course correction, it is better to over perform and deviate rather than under perform and deviate (if you under perform you may not even have remaining fuel to correct!).

In case of MOM injection trajectory, there was this long coast phase, so the 3rd stage lofts the upper stages high (basically gives it the calculated kick in terms of engine burn off time) and burns out completely. At the end of coast phase (calculated by the algorithms fed into the computer), and just prior to ignition of PS4, the computer uses the position from RLGs and calculates how much burn is required to go to the next "waypoint/final waypoint" and either starts or delays the ignition time.

All the while until the sat is injected in orbit, the computer is calculating - that is obtaining position and determining the delta course corrections. And that is why PSLV is stacked as solid/liq/solid/liq - a solid stage once started cannot be shut-off - while liquid stage has restart capabilities. That is the beauty of closed loop guidance system. It allows for precise injection and speaks to maturity of your engineering (stages), your command and guidance (algorithms) and importantly your navigational aids (gyros/star sensors etc).

Historic tidbits:

1. Prior to "closed loop guidance" there was "open loop guidance", which was basically shoot & hope and then check and hope you have enough fuel to reach your destination.

2. "Closed loop guidance" was described as a set of equations by a Russian mathematician in 1950s.

3. Indians first tested the closed loop guidance in ASLV. In 1987 ( I think)

4. In 1998, a hedge fund imploded in US - check out the LTCM crises - they used the equations derived from closed loop guidance in their financial risk hedging. The equations worked fine, they did not account for "black swan" events like Russian financial crises.

[manoba]

Yeah, it has to be the on board computer, since the data came online, only after a minute or so self correction already happened.
Thanks juvva.

[disha]

that can only be answered by nasa, ruskies or ESA.... i need to know why indians sent the mars mission..i pay my taxes here...

Manjgu, please go and read my posts. Particularly on methane gas.

[rajanb]

Thanks Disha and Marten. Very informative.

Got my fingers crossed about any news on whether Phase II has started?

[rahulm]

The Hindu - India’s voyage to Mars

Questions about the worthwhileness of the space programme are nothing new. Studies have, however, shown that the country has more than recouped the money it invested in space.

The exact earth orbit is 246.9 kms x 23,556.69 kms

‘Meaningful scientific experiments’ to be conducted on the Red Planet

Expected life of 6 months after which the probe will not be allowed to crash on Mars but would have enough fuel left to steer Magalyaan away. That's a shame. It would be nice to crash the craft into Mars so that we leave our first civilisational foot prints on the first Mars mission. Don't just up and leave.

We have left such an imprint in the form of the MIP on the moon.

‘Every rupee spent benefits people’

Loved the poker face, matter of fact and unemotional demeanour of M.S. Pannirselvam the Range Operations Director as he announced significant milestones. Mr. Ice himself.

It was also great to see and hear Dr. Yash Pal who was clearly very excited. His speech was a bit everywhere but his enthusiasm and optimism were infectious.

[manoba]

Thanks disha. Sad, in BR, we don't have Facebook like "Like" button or starring system. Indeed, very informative.

Marten, thanks for the link. Good to know Dr. Mayank Vahia is working with Iravatham Mahadevan. I closely follow the work of Iravatham Mahadevan and Asko Parpola on Indus Script. One of their interpretation of one of many "Fish symbols" is red + fish (meaning star) = Mars.

[Lalmohan]

with western media reporting, we sdre's also have a perception bias (as in - 'they are out to get us so every thing they say must be bad'). almost everything i have seen starts with a +ve spin on the achievement of ISRO and the pride that indians feel, whilst there are references to -ves, they are far more muted than they used to be. there has been a definite shift in reporting to a more +ve spin for ALL matters indian. things are starting to move in the right direction. but india being an open, pluralistic society very keen to examine its own navel - there will be a lot of -ve opinions and definitely these will get represented in the foreign media. we should not shy away from the fact that we have bad roads and no toilets, but develop the collective will power to have good roads and many many toilets! as well as launch missions to mars and beyond

[PratikDas]

But there is a time and place for everything, Lalmohan ji. When Obama's healthcare policy is questioned, American journalists don't devote 1/3rd of the article to gun violence in the US and vice versa. For that matter, neither do foreign journalists mix completely unrelated stories about the US into one hit job, except for Al Jazeera perhaps. Heck, even a RT hit job sticks to the topic.

When it comes to reporting about India though, the BBC makes Al Jazeera look good.

[Lalmohan]

(not wishing to have a debate on media here) - they start with their reference point - which is poverty and dirt, everything else is a shock to them
indians are inured to the poverty and dirt - we have stopped seeing it around us

anyway

i am proud of mangalayaan and what it means for the future, and i am glad that we are as a nation getting praise for it

[Neela]

But there is a time and place for everything, Lalmohan ji. When Obama's healthcare policy is questioned, American journalists don't devote 1/3rd of the article to gun violence in the US and vice versa. For that matter, neither do foreign journalists mix completely unrelated stories about the US into one hit job, except for Al Jazeera perhaps. Heck, even a RT hit job sticks to the topic.

When it comes to reporting about India though, the BBC makes Al Jazeera look good.

Started writing something but then realized the above is exactly what I wanted to convey too.

with western media reporting, we sdre's also have a perception bias (as in - 'they are out to get us so every thing they say must be bad'). almost everything i have seen starts with a +ve spin on the achievement of ISRO and the pride that indians feel, whilst there are references to -ves, they are far more muted than they used to be. there has been a definite shift in reporting to a more +ve spin for ALL matters indian.

I dont know about this too. In the last years , India being a rape central is the only social image that has been reinforced. Both the Americans and Brits pretend as though rapes never happen in their respective countries despite damning stats but go on with articles having titles "Another women raped in India". YOu should try going on to forums and see how quickly rapes are brought up every time a topic on India is discussed.

[Neela]

indians are inured to the poverty and dirt - we have stopped seeing it around us

Maybe.
Does that make Americans inured to murder & violence.
Brits now are inured to pedophilia since someone who managed to molest , rape,fondle women & _helpless patients_ went on for 30 years with immunity and then died.
Why aren"t these said in the same vein.

[Lalmohan]

i am not here to justify the media's practices, i am saying that i found the reporting on mangalayaan to be generally +ve

[Pratyush]

^^^

Don't know about pride in the Mangalyaan launch. Though I can say that it was yet another boring performance by ISRO. No drama, no emotion, no song and dance. Successful orbital insertion in first attempt. It will be another boring event, when it leaves the earth orbit. It will be boring when it enters mars orbit.

Bloody boring if you ask me. That too from a nation that is not able to provide toilets to millions of its citizens.

Before I conclude, I am reminded of Vikaram Sarabhai, saying, the question is not whether we can afford to do this. The question is whether we can afford not to do this.

Those who question Mangalyaan & ISRO's actions need to be reminded of it.

[Bade]

Mars baton shifts to ISTRAC

ISTRAC will now be the nerve centre of the mission and communicate with the spacecraft, correct its course and command it throughout the life of the spacecraft.

First signals from the spacecraft showed it to be in good health, M.Annadurai, Programme Director of the Mars Orbiter Mission, told The Hindu in Bangalore.

“We started getting spacecraft telemetry from T+500 (T meaning the launch event) and took over after the satellite was separated” from the rocket, he said.

The satellite was going round Earth once in 6 hours 50 minutes in an elliptical orbit of 247 km x 23,564 km.

Between November 7 and December 1, ISTRAC would progressively stretch one end of the ellipse (at the apogee or farthest point from Earth) in six moves, called orbit raising manoeuvres.

Mr. Annadurai said scientists on the tracking mission were bracing themselves for the first and crucial post-launch manoeuvre at 1:15 a.m. on November 7. Prior to that, they had a rehearsal of the manoeuvre between midnight and 5 a.m. on Wednesday.

By December 1, the spacecraft must be put on the path to Mars.

Meanwhile ISTRAC must expand the spacecraft’s apogee to over a lakh km.

ISTRAC’s two large antennas, of 18-metre and 32-m diameter, located at the Indian Deep Space Network at Byalalu, will then come into picture.

[akashganga]

I have been reading many many comments about mangalyaan in this forum and also in comments on both indian and foreign websites. The criticism of the program by the westerners is mainly because they cannot stomach the fact brown/dark skinned indians are now competing and even outsmarting them in high tech and space. Another reason for westerners to criticise is how can non-christian indians are getting so advanced and doing sophisticated work. The criticism of mangalyaan by indians/nri are mostly due to brainwashed brown sahibs mentality who think indians should do only simple things like making shoes or clothes and serve their western masters.

As for me I am still celebrating the launch and will celebrate every major milestone until managlyaan revolves around mars and starts sending data. Cheers.

[anupmisra]

I am amazed at the naysayers' logic and attempt to belittle everything. May not be directly relevant but here's why NASA continues to explore: Reminding the World Why We Continue to Explore. I am glad NASA and ISRO are looking to collaborate in space exploration. Here are some useful thoughts for those who question honest human endeavors like the proverbial Pavlov's dog:

MAVEN, launching later this month, will add to our growing body of knowledge about Mars in preparation for a human mission there in the 2030s

These incredible achievements would have been unthinkable just a few years ago, but with our steady and strategic investments in science, technology and human exploration we continue to build a space program that leads the world in scientific discovery and technology

Since acquisition of knowledge should not be limited to just those in the top 5 list of HDI, it is to everyone's prerogative to explore within the realm of their abilities. India can and has the means and desire to explore the universe. So it must do so now. Because it can. It must do so, so that it does not have play leapfrog when a "better" moment presents itself.

Perhaps the best response to those who question the rationale behind India's attempts to reach for the Moon, Mars and beyond is "because its there!"

[shyamoo]

@manjgu
Assuming that 10 crore Indians pay taxes, the cost of this mission being 450 crores, it would amount to roughly 45 rs per person. I'll give you that amount if you are interested. Just to stop you cribbing about the money spent/wasted. Deal?
Please look at it as money spent on, say, a bad movie and move on.

[SwamyG]

MOM most tracked craft: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 326491.cms

[Lilo]

-edited out-

[shyamoo]

@manjgu
Assuming that 10 crore Indians pay taxes, the cost of this mission being 450 crores, it would amount to roughly 45 rs per person. I'll give you that amount if you are interested. Just to stop you cribbing about the money spent/wasted. Deal?

Vshyam ji,
Coming from Indian context - what you said (abt 45 rs) is a big insult - just because some one is outta line to the common wisdom doesn't mean it should be an open season on him/her.
Please to do the needful and edit.

Lilo saar, I'll admit, it was meant as an insult. Sometimes, there is only so much one can take. There are very few things going right in India that we can take pleasure in. Why rain on someone's parade?

I'll edit my post.

[NRao]

People who want to resolve India's poverty related issues should be able to find plenty of funds in the underground economy that India has (had for decades). A casual estimate places 3/4 (or 75%) of the economy as "underground", so for every Rs that we see on the accounts, there are 3 that is not accounted for. Poverty does need attention, but not at the expense of the space program. There are viable alternatives.

[abhijitm]

@negi..good. pl tell us what will they study that has not been studied before. what is the mission objectives/goals...

Invalid question, invalid argument. Pray tell me why did you learn to speak and write when billions of other people have done exactly the same thing? What job are you doing which no one has done before? Why do you want to teach your children to walk, talk, write, sing?? Millions of other children are doing the same no? Well the answer is to be independent and be educated, to validate your learning by doing something you have learn and discover and invent something new along the journey. Aaah but that logic is not suitable for people like you. You want our scientists to show new tech invention right now even before the journey begins otherwise you blatantly call them bluff!! And BTW who told you the intention of this scientific experiment is to validate new tech that has never been tested before? Or is that your childish expectation that every scientific experiment must invovle a new ground breaking tech? Otherwise that experiment has no value? If that is true then why to have a space program at all? what have we done in last 50 years that has not tried and tested by at least one country? The argument can reach the helm of stupidity.

And now what that Amitabha Ghosh guy is saying that there is nothing new to be learn from Mars with MOM type of mission because somebody else has learned evrything possible? Fk we humans have evolved on earth and yet we have so much to learn and discover the Earth. And how many missions have been sent to mars 20 - 30? and he thinks he has learn everything? What kind of arrogance is that?

We want our scientists to learn more just like I want my kids to learn, even that means they do exactly the same thing done by many others. I dont give a damn of what new tech and etc. Invention is a byproduct of learning and discovery. It will come gradually and eventually.

[Bade]

In a more recent article in the HIndu I think, Mr Ghosh has changed his stance. I am not sure what made his say those things, assuming he is still with NASA when NASA itself wants to collaborate with ISRO on such missions.

Nothing beats this one, if you want to save wasteful expenditure.

The former ISRO chief, U.R. Rao, said that when his friends in the U.S. asked him whether India should spend Rs. 500 crore on the Mars mission, he told them that when Rs. 10,000 crore was spent on Diwali crackers by people, this money was worth spending on the project.

[ashvin]

Why is it that whenever India does something substantial in science and engineering everyone comes out of the woodwork to bash it with the broomstick of poverty? This is true for the deracinated Indians, too, who have come to believe that science and technology is the sole propriety of the West or China (never here the same people whining about China). This constant refrain of having to be raked over the coals over substantial and essential steps in the evolution of technology by India needs to stop. Its India's birthright to expand the frontiers of knowledge and in the process if we do re-invent the wheel then so be it!

[ramana]

Magalyaan is using a minimum energy transfer orbit called the Hohman Transfer Orbit

Could you please explain this a little more? Very interesting in understanding how they timed the launch to derive benefit from this transfer orbit.

PS: Vina, thanks. Ejumacate us please, when you have the time.

marten,
Please do read the wiki link posted above for it explains the Hohman transfer Orbit quite well.
In layman terms its like jumping from one rotating disc to another to get to the destination orbit instead of going into that orbit ab initio.
It takes adavantage of the planetary motion to get to far away orbits.
PS: I was going to post the link to Hohman transfer orbit but thought lurkers would get ticked off and mutter nonsense.

Thanks rahulm, And how is Ozzie land? Answer in nukkad.

[nvishal]

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=39370

Realtime tracking of MoM which is currently doing an egg shaped elliptical orbit of the earth for the whole month on november. It'll gain enough momentum by month end and is automatically programmed to shoot itself outside of the earths orbit on 1st dec


Currently it is over dominician republic and hardly moving on the surface. Instead it is moving away from the earth(elliptical orbit), currently at an altitude of 23586km and counting.

[SaiK]

The Indian Space Research Organization’s Mars Orbiter Mission (“Mangalyaan”) is a technology demonstration. The 2,980-pound (1,350 kilograms) probe will take a 300-day cruise to Mars and then circle the planet, testing equipment and practicing space maneuvers. Scientific objectives are secondary.

After launch, the probe is placed in a highly elliptical orbit around Earth. Further rocket firings modify the probe’s path into a departure trajectory.

The cruise to Mars lasts 300 days. Arriving at Mars, the probe fires its rocket again to slow down and be captured into orbit.

India’s Mars probe is expected to spend six to ten months in orbit, studying the Red Planet’s environment, snapping photos of its surface and searching for methane in the atmosphere, which might be an indicator of life.

can someone throw some light on the instruments and monitoring techniques to detect arrival at mars orbit?

the pic above is bit loose, in the sense it can give wrong thoughts about how close MOM gets to Sun. the 3D space diagram needed.

[SaiK]

[SaiK]

good job nvishal.. can you get that pic little bit zoomed out with the trace path details (with orbits, footprint checked) etc?

[nvishal]

[Karan M]

Deleted - no point in further OT

[Bade]

According to a report on The Telegraph, it slowing down the orbiter while it approaches Mars will be something that the Isro will be doing for the first time in their history of space experiments and the space agency’s engineers have admitted that it will be difficult to fire an engine to reduce its speed after 300 days of leaving it as it is. A senior Isro engineer told The Telegraph: “We’ve tried to guard against performance degradation after this break of 300 days,” a senior Isro engineer said. But the engine’s successful firing will be crucial to placing the orbiter into its intended elliptical orbit with 365km and 80,000km as the closest and most distant points. A Arunan, project director of the Mars mission, also predicted that the Orbiter might face a fuel crunch if it faces any orbital deviations in its journey. “The orbiter carries about 850kg of propellant, and each ORM will use up some of this fuel. Any orbital deviations could cause more fuel to be used up for corrections and shorten the spacecraft’s lifespan in Mars orbit. “If the trans-Martian insertion (on November 30-December 1) is delayed, then there will be a crunch on the onboard fuel,” said A. Arunan, project director of the Mars mission.”

Read more at: http://www.firstpost.com/tech/isros-mar ... ef_article

[Vayutuvan]

Expected life of 6 months after which the probe will not be allowed to crash on Mars but would have enough fuel left to steer Magalyaan away. That's a shame. It would be nice to crash the craft into Mars so that we leave our first civilisational foot prints on the first Mars mission. Don't just up and leave.

rahulm ji, they should have planned on crashing it on Mars. Barring that another option (provided enough fuel exists for this maneuver) is to use Martian gravity for a slingshot - again going into a progressively elongating elliptical orbit - to go beyond and continue on as long as the craft has power supply through solar panels and take images and send them back to India.

Does anybody know if that is possible or planned? If it not crashed, what happens to MOM after the Martian mission is accomplished? Does it have any cameras (visible, IR and other spectrum) on board?

[PratikDas]

It has the Mars Colour Camera as SaiK ji shared in the previous page.

[Bade]

Yes it has a color camera onboard, very likely similar to the one used for the moon mission.

But fuel limitations will be the constraint to whatever needs to be done for change of mission plans.

[SaiK]

Yup.. nuke fuel is the way to go for the future.

[sohamn]

Expected life of 6 months after which the probe will not be allowed to crash on Mars but would have enough fuel left to steer Magalyaan away. That's a shame. It would be nice to crash the craft into Mars so that we leave our first civilisational foot prints on the first Mars mission. Don't just up and leave.

rahulm ji, they should have planned on crashing it on Mars. Barring that another option (provided enough fuel exists for this maneuver) is to use Martian gravity for a slingshot - again going into a progressively elongating elliptical orbit - to go beyond and continue on as long as the craft has power supply through solar panels and take images and send them back to India.

Does anybody know if that is possible or planned? If it not crashed, what happens to MOM after the Martian mission is accomplished? Does it have any cameras (visible, IR and other spectrum) on board?

I think they will steer the spacecraft for an interstellar mission to rendezvous with Proxima Centuari.

[Vayutuvan]

sohamn ji, I wish. At least they should have planned crashing on Jupiter - would have added to the mission budget which was shoe-string to start with.

[disha]

It would have crashed into the asteroid belt even before reaching Jupiter!

Anyway, we can talk about what can be planned or not - however the mission parameters, weight, fuel etc is a four-five dimensional matrix that has to be worked out and several factors are equated, we can surmise only some.

Fact is, we have a mangalyaan on the way and the first orbit raising maneuver has been completed. Thanks to news from Emily L. http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-la ... pdate.html