Mangalyaan: ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

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Bade
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Bade »

That is for follow on missions with augmented GSLVs :-) with bigger payloads, to do more and more meaningful science. Within a decade payload weight might decrease with advances made in materials.

I am not looking forward to the rhona-dhona all over again when ASTROSAT gets launched sometime next year or so.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Suraj »

The reason for not crashing it on Mars is that there's a requirement agreed upon between spacefaring nations, that payloads reaching other celestial bodies be sterilized to avoid forward contamination. Unless ISRO had previously planned upon it and sterilized the Mangalyaan/MOM, it cannot decide after the fact that 'oh fine, lets go crash it on Mars'. The Japanese Nozomi probe had the same issue - when they lost control over it, they were obligated to fire its thrusters one last time to steer it away from Mars.

Yet another problem is backward contamination caused by matter from other celestial bodies being brought back to earth. So far only one Martian mission has attempted to do so - the Russian Phobos/Grunt mission that also carried the Chinese Yinghuo Mars orbiter. Unfortunately that mission never left the Earth's orbit, and ended up in the bottom of the Pacific Ocean in 2011.

There's a 'Mars curse' associated with Mars missions - everyone failed on their first try. The ESA was partially successful, but they used Russian rockets, and the Beagle lander never made contact. We should be prepared for the significant likelihood of failure, but if we do succeed, it would be the first time anyone successfully conducted a full Mars mission by themselves at first try.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Bade »

The risk from a H&D perspective is pretty low for this mission. If you do well, it is a grand success. If you fail in your first attempt, well others have too. No one can point fingers at you as there is supposedly a curse. It is all for fun only and not to be taken seriously, or else you are doomed not to attempt it as the first attempt has a high chance of failure from stats already known. So if you are serious on further Mars exploration, and believe in the curse theory, then your first mission better be the least expensive one but with some tangential returns. ;-)
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Vayutuvan »

disha wrote:It would have crashed into the asteroid belt even before reaching Jupiter!
What is the probability (especially if one plans the timing properly). Orbits of several reasonable sized asteroids are known and NASA JPL models for predicting near term planetary positions take these into account.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Suraj »

Indeed, Bade. Totally chankian earthshaster SDRE mission onlee :)
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by sanjaykumar »

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Robert Browning
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by disha »

Suraj wrote:The reason for not crashing it on Mars is that there's a requirement agreed upon between spacefaring nations, that payloads reaching other celestial bodies be sterilized to avoid forward contamination. Unless ISRO had previously planned upon it and sterilized the Mangalyaan/MOM, it cannot decide after the fact that 'oh fine, lets go crash it on Mars'. The Japanese Nozomi probe had the same issue - when they lost control over it, they were obligated to fire its thrusters one last time to steer it away from Mars.

Yet another problem is backward contamination caused by matter from other celestial bodies being brought back to earth. So far only one Martian mission has attempted to do so - the Russian Phobos/Grunt mission that also carried the Chinese Yinghuo Mars orbiter. Unfortunately that mission never left the Earth's orbit, and ended up in the bottom of the Pacific Ocean in 2011.

There's a 'Mars curse' associated with Mars missions - everyone failed on their first try. The ESA was partially successful, but they used Russian rockets, and the Beagle lander never made contact. We should be prepared for the significant likelihood of failure, but if we do succeed, it would be the first time anyone successfully conducted a full Mars mission by themselves at first try.
Certainity of failure, small chance of success - what are we waiting for? - paraphrasing Gimli.

Sir, have you ever wondered about the implications of successful on the first try itself?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

not that any living cell contamination can survive anyways.. but the fact of crashing even sterilized and sanitized components can contaminate any environment just by the fact it is from Earth. So, dunno how those agreements are drafted.

Have a space cop or two is necessary, considering chinese invasion... and this is the another reason, i highlighted the necessity to enable long term space missions to go out and stay there.. for this we need nuke fuel and establish each satellite as a platform node for information routing.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by disha »

SaiK wrote:not that any living cell contamination can survive anyways.. but the fact of crashing even sterilized and sanitized components can contaminate any environment just by the fact it is from Earth. So, dunno how those agreements are drafted.
LOL and sir you can never be so wrong! :-)

Check out Tardigrades please.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by sanjaykumar »

Panspermia is a serious model of the explanation of life on Earth, care needs to be taken in putting mankind's garbage in space. Deinococcus radiodurans would make a heroic space farer.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Mort Walker »

disha wrote:
Suraj wrote:The reason for not crashing it on Mars is that there's a requirement agreed upon between spacefaring nations, that payloads reaching other celestial bodies be sterilized to avoid forward contamination. Unless ISRO had previously planned upon it and sterilized the Mangalyaan/MOM, it cannot decide after the fact that 'oh fine, lets go crash it on Mars'. The Japanese Nozomi probe had the same issue - when they lost control over it, they were obligated to fire its thrusters one last time to steer it away from Mars.

Yet another problem is backward contamination caused by matter from other celestial bodies being brought back to earth. So far only one Martian mission has attempted to do so - the Russian Phobos/Grunt mission that also carried the Chinese Yinghuo Mars orbiter. Unfortunately that mission never left the Earth's orbit, and ended up in the bottom of the Pacific Ocean in 2011.

There's a 'Mars curse' associated with Mars missions - everyone failed on their first try. The ESA was partially successful, but they used Russian rockets, and the Beagle lander never made contact. We should be prepared for the significant likelihood of failure, but if we do succeed, it would be the first time anyone successfully conducted a full Mars mission by themselves at first try.
Certainity of failure, small chance of success - what are we waiting for? - paraphrasing Gimli.

Sir, have you ever wondered about the implications of successful on the first try itself?
You bring up a good point and one I was thinking of earlier. If the MoM is a success it will be a true feather in the cap. I know between now and the end of the month when MoM leaves earth orbit, I'll be checking up on it every day. Come September of 2014, I'll also be checking.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Bade »

Scientifically speaking a success on the very first attempt has little significance. It can be called just an outlier event to the probability curve for all Mars missions. Now here come the punch. You do it many more times with success then it becomes significant, in that it really means that we are doing something right systematically and it is no statistical fluke. :-) Now how many more naysayers will that put at unease...in money better spent club. Well we would have proved then that there is no Martian curse either. ;-) We will know over the next year.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Mort Walker »

I think everyone here will be happy with a statistical outlier of success on the first try. :)
Well we would have proved then that there is no Martian curse either. ;-) We will know over the next year.
Well. Mangalyaan's launch was on Mangalvaar (Tuesday) on its way to Mangal.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by disha »

On the first chance of success, there is the statistical part and then there is the psychological part. Let us say despite all the chances of failure, the mission has succeded - sample this then:

1. Statistician: It is a fluke, just like all cryptographic strong random number generators generate pseudo-random numbers (eye-roll, go to sleep).

2. MMS: I believe in peace, silence and vaccum in space. I do not think that lagrange points should be used for space weapons that lurk there and come alive in time of need. Our money is spent on feeeding the boor. #TheekHai.

At that stage, all the world netas will go and seek cover. Figure out why?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^I don't believe in a fluke in the case of success, whereas I do believe it would be the blessing from Lord Venkateswara when a model of the PSLV-C25 was taken to Tirumala for blessing.
At that stage, all the world netas will go and seek cover. Figure out why?
Yup. Rather I expect the budhimans to come to the negotiating table.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by ramana »

Mort, ISRO head did go to Tirumala before the Mangalyaan launch per Hindu.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

disha, if they so prevalent then should be already there in mars. i can't prove it, nor you can disprove me right now. :) btw, i am going by the fact it is a global (universally not identified yet) organism and can live in absolute zero. so, it should be the first thing perhaps our mars probe (future) should find.

now, to counter your question... how do they currently prove tardigrades have been killed/sanitized?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Mort Walker »

I was wondering....

Could it be possible to launch 2-3 PSLVs each with 1500 Kg payload of fuel that is in orbit, then have an interplanetary probe, launched by another PSLV, dock with each of the fuel payloads and then get a big push out to Mars or the moons of Jupiter?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by disha »

SaiK wrote:disha, if they so prevalent then should be already there in mars. i can't prove it, nor you can disprove me right now. :) btw, i am going by the fact it is a global (universally not identified yet) organism and can live in absolute zero. so, it should be the first thing perhaps our mars probe (future) should find.

now, to counter your question... how do they currently prove tardigrades have been killed/sanitized?
saik, we can go around in circles on rhetoric itself.

Can you prove that tardigrades on Earth are *not* from Mars?

The point is that only a responsible space power will carry their responsibilities - otherwise they are irresponsible!
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Bade »

Tirumala visit is done for all launches, including failed ones...like the passing the peanuts ritual in nasa ritually for all successful and failed ones. Radhakrishnan said it correctly, that there is a thin line between success and failure in this business.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by NRao »

Tirumala visit is done for all launches, including failed ones.
I think, in a very recent article, he said the earlier heads paid a visit prior to a flight. In his case he visits after a flight - as a thankgiving.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Anantha »

As per our ancient sages; Havans are done before learning new concepts. The Rishis used to start with Havans and new Math/science concepts were codified in mantras/other texts. Classic example is Bhagavatham Chapter 5 canto 3 where allegorical statements match modern astronomical observations.
A visit to a temple itself is only a starting point and is a self promise to excel in the selected field. At least I believe in this concept and has worked excellently for me.
Last edited by Anantha on 07 Nov 2013 06:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

disha, it is very debatable indeed. unless we have the objectives laid out, any law, agreement may not be holistic enough. like they say, how chinese interpret laws and agrees on meaning, i agreed to not do this or that, but did not agree to another thing. very very careful with chinese.. they will always do it if they can find something that can be done.

===========
back to bijnej:
found what i wanted to ask question about:
Image

what is \delta V retro? and what sensors it carries to detect the right orbit?

btw, it is not just jumping from Earth orbit to Marsian orbit.. it does jump into Sun's orbit before jumping to mars orbit.

Image
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Bade »

NRao, That is him alone probably doing a second visit, but ISRO has a tradition of taking a replica of the rocket and satellite to Tirumala before launch. It is not just about what the Chairman of ISRO believes or does, but what rest of the organization want. I am sure even if one day the Chairman elect is an atheist, the practice will continue. No harm done keeping some traditions alive, as it is just human to keep doing them. We are hopeful always, or else the odds are so stacked up against us for any unknown ventures, that we would not seek them out.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Anand K »

I've RTFFed, I think :oops: , but couldn't find if the M.O.M. is going to "validate" the existing Methane models based on previous orbiters and Earth based observations..... I mean, Mars footprint wise and all. IIRC Curiosity's landing zone was selected to provide best opportunity to study this fact, but it failed to find conclusive evidence. Like others posted here, NASA MAVEN's going there for validating the NASA models, among other things.
I wish to know where Madhavan Nair-ji's angst comes from. :(

PS: BTW, BHEL used to make space rated solar panels for ISRO. I just Googled out that EMCORE won the contract for our coming GSLV payloads. Our indigenous efforts so far were lacking?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

Image

Image
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

http://qz.com/143717/indias-cut-rate-mi ... g-poverty/

perhaps this article will find many friends here
questioning a poor country’s decision to launch a space program also implicitly ignores the fact that rich countries have poor people too. In 1962, President John F Kennedy declared to Americans that “we choose to go to the moon.” That year, 38.6 million Americans, or 21% of the nation (Excel file), lived below the poverty line. Last year, it was still 15%.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Rahul M »

SaiK wrote:Image

Image
I guess both were modified because I don't see anything that looks like a radar dish.

my search for a pic of the current avatar of these ships came up a cropper.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Anantha »

sohamn wrote:
manjgu wrote:@sohamn .. u have no idea abt ESA...of which UK is a contributing member. and no idea abt british contribution to science and technology. Pl read up and then come to the forum !!
I doubt you pay any taxes to the Indian Coffers and I doubt you know anything about Indian space and exploration. I was seeing a TV program where the media interviewed a student about MoM, while she didn't even know that ISRO launched a spacecraft to Mars she was blowing steam about poverty and malnutrition . You, this student and some others are a small subset of indian population who with all their ignorance pretend to be highly intellectual.

You and your pseudo-talibani intellectual bunch doesn't even know how less this mission costs ( 0.00007 % of GDP ) and how much India spends for its other programs.

What ISRO did was invest in the dreams of the Indian Youth to think big, ISRO invested in the validation of a technology that can be utilized for deep space exploration and mining. When NASA send probes to outer space it invested in dreams and there was a boy who dream't big. His name is Elon Musk, today he has opened a Company known as SpaceX which has developed its own launch vehicles and space-crafts. If we have to create Richard Branson's and Elon Musk's then we have to invest in the future, we have to invest in the dreams. We have to make us believe we can also reach for the stars.
Also starting just 40 years ago with Aryabhatta satellite we have come a long way and have caught up considerably with US/Russia. Who knows in another 40 years we may be the leader in space technology, with the current youth aquiring a CAN DO attitude due to this launch.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Kanson »

Suraj wrote:There's a 'Mars curse' associated with Mars missions - everyone failed on their first try. The ESA was partially successful, but they used Russian rockets, and the Beagle lander never made contact. We should be prepared for the significant likelihood of failure, but if we do succeed, it would be the first time anyone successfully conducted a full Mars mission by themselves at first try.
As destined we launched ours on Tuesday, the day as per our tradition associated with Mars.

Though Chinese Orbiter YingHuo was launched on Tuesady, being from atheists may not carried the grace of Lord Mars to grace the Mars orbit.

:D
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

The SCI ships modification should appear like this:

Image
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Kanson »

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't believe in a fluke in the case of success, whereas I do believe it would be the blessing from Lord Venkateswara when a model of the PSLV-C25 was taken to Tirumala for blessing.
Of course, if the mission was concerned about Earth and Moon. For Mars is it not the blessing should be sort from Lord Subramanya? :D
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by juvva »

Suraj wrote:The reason for not crashing it on Mars is that there's a requirement agreed upon between spacefaring nations, that payloads reaching other celestial bodies be sterilized to avoid forward contamination......

Is this only for celestial bodies with an atmosphere?
Would it be ok to crash into phobos or another martian sa
ttelite?

I don't recall any sterilization for MIP on CY-1.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Neela »

The MArs intercept seems to happen when it is quite far from the earth. Is this done to allow the craft to deploy, gather data, store them locally and transmit to stations here when Mars orbit comes much close to Earth?
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by member_23901 »

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-05/i ... ch/5071814

Image

Good representation of the mission path
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by SaiK »

touch base on seeking blessings, no lord or godship can help, if we have not paid attention to details, and lessons learned from one org like nasa can be a study point for others as well.
http://mars.nasa.gov/programmissions/missions/log/

BTW, has anyone watched the video of mars rover risk management reports? it is not easy to even sit thru a fault finding analysis. http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bits ... 6-0230.pdf. plus the challenger tiles failures.. all these are big time study materials - its a big 250 page document-i am sure ISRO had done that million times, and it is only aam people like us, think our people inside the lab just create something, and then head to temple to pray.

it is always the case, that duh! did we think about the alternative path in the fault tree analysis? now the system is already in 300k miles away from earth@.. that we dont want to listen even if it is $1 or $x value.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by rahulm »

Mythbusting India's Mars Mission
It's thus surprising to see such a high tide of denouncements and misjudgements for this mission circulating in the media and online forums. Weeks ago, we saw naive criticisms of China's upcoming Moon rover by a Chinese scientist in the Hong Kong press. Now India is in the line of fire with even more dubious comments.
Some of this seems to stem from surprise. India has operated one of the world's most advanced space programs for decades, but it has largely escaped the limelight. This has partially been due to some bad communications strategies, but it's also because the program has been more focused on utilitarian goals than headline-grabbing feats in space.
This vast nation would be much worse off without the benefits of its space program.
The high-profile Mars mission has served as a wake-up call to many people who don't pay much attention to spaceflight. They should understand that this Mars mission is simply another step in a large, long and diverse space program. India has been in space with force for decades. If this mission serves as a wake-up call for the world, so be it.
There are criticisms that money spent on the mission could or should be spent elsewhere. Such dubious claims have been made for every nation that has ventured into space. Generally, these theories have been proven to be somewhat bunk. Stopping space missions does not stop poverty.
India's Mars program promises to return useful engineering and scientific data for a price that puts other space agencies to shame!
The science looks good, too. There have been some criticisms of the decision to include a methane detector on the mission.
The Indian mission will nicely complement the ground data from NASA's rover. Two independent results from different missions in different places will forge a stronger case.
....there are four other scientific payloads on the mission, including a colour camera. All of them are worthwhile. The heavy focus on the Martian atmosphere by this mission also offers more bang for the buck.
Good science. National pride. Technical advances. Inspiration for the world. India's first step towards Mars is worth the price.
Author is an Aussie. Article is a keeper.

Ramana, I am well. Appreciate you asking. Will reply in Nukkad soon.
Last edited by rahulm on 07 Nov 2013 11:34, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by member_23901 »

Coming close on the heels of this week's Indian mission will be NASA's own Mars orbiter launch scheduled for later this month. Called MAVEN (Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution mission), the NASA mission will collaborate with the Indian spacecraft.


NASA has also agreed to provide communications and tracking of India's Mars spacecraft through its Deep Space Network.

"Mangalayan and MAVEN can make similar observations at different locations at the same time, helping to separate out time-varying from spatially-varying phenomena," said MAVEN team leader Bruce Jakosky of the University of Colorado in Boulder.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... net-space/
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by svinayak »

Image
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Re: Mangalyaan : ISRO's Mars Orbiter Mission

Post by Lalmohan »

good old amul!
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