Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

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shiv
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Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

A fire on the sub Sindhuratna has killed 2 sailors. The Navy Chief has set a new standard of accountability by resigning.

His resignation has been accepted.

News link follows
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 45663.html
INS Sindhuratna tragedy: Two feared lost, seven injured
Two naval officers are 'unaccounted for' after a fire onboard an Indian naval Kilo class submarine. The fire and smoke broke out in the third compartment of the INS Sindhuratna, a submarine undergoing trials off Mumbai this morning.

The fire in the forward battery compartment triggered off the release of the submarine's 'Lokh' station that discharges Freon gas. Five crewmen who were heli-lifted to safety after inhaling the poisonous gas. Freon is used in submarine fire-fighting systems because it rapidly displaces oxygen in confined spaces and kills fire. It can, however, also prove lethal to crewmen who are not wearing emergency breathing apparatus. The trials were being supervised by the western fleet's Commodore Submarines or Comcos (west).

Meanwhile, reports said seven sailors were also injured in the incident.

The Sindhuratna is one of the navy's fleet of nine Kilo class submarines. A tenth submarine, the INS Sindhurakshak exploded and sank in the naval dockyard on August 14, 2013 killing 18 crewmen on board. The Sindhuratna was moored nearby and suffered minor fire damage.

Wednesday's incident was similar to one on November 8, 2008 when the accidental discharge of Freon gas on an Akula class nuclear-powered attack submarine killed 20 Russian personnel and injured 41 others. The submarine, the Nerpa, was leased to India in 2012 as the INS Chakra.


Indian Navy statement on the tragedy

Indian Naval Submarine Sindhuratna was at sea off Mumbai for routine training and workup (inspection).

While at sea in the early hours of today, smoke was reported in the sailors' accommodation, in compartment number three, by the submarine. Smoke was brought under control by the submarine's crew. In the process of controlling the smoke / fire, seven crew members inhaled smoke and felt uneasy. The Headquarters, Western Naval Command (HQ WNC) rushed a Seaking Helicopter with medical team.

The seven crew members were transferred to Naval Hospital Asvini. All specialist Medical Officers attended and reported that the crew are safe. Naval ships were despatched by HQ WNC and are in the area to provide assistance to the submarine. Two personnel have not yet been located and all efforts are in progress to locate them. All other crew of the submarine are on board and safe. Submarine is also safe and this does not have any weapons on board.

The submarine will return to harbour shortly. An inquiry has been ordered to establish the cause of the incident.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 45663.html
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Rahul M »

16 months of service left. at least the services still maintain the culture of accepting moral responsibility.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/n ... 729695.ece
Navy Chief Admiral D K Joshi on Wednesday resigned taking “moral responsibility” over the spate of mishaps involving naval warships in the last seven months.

Admiral Joshi, who had about 15 months more left in service, submitted his resignation hours after submarine INS Sindhuratna had a mishap in which seven sailors were taken seriously ill and two officers were missing.

The Defence Ministry immediately accepted his resignation and ordered that Vice-Chief of Naval Staff Vice Admiral R.K. Dhowan should take over as the Acting Chief till regular Chief is appointed.

“Taking moral responsibility for the accidents and incidents which have taken place during the past few months, the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi on Wednesday resigned from the post of Navy Chief,” Defence Ministry said.

“The Government has accepted the resignation of Admiral Joshi with immediate effect,” it said.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by KJo »

I disagree on this whole "I resign" concept.

He should resign only if he did something to cause the fire. If the fire just happened by chance or something out of anyone's control like an accident, then he should NOT resign. He should man up and take steps that it won't happen again. Why do soosai like this?

When NaMo becomes PM, there will be some bad things that happen. Should he resign? NO! I want him to take steps to improve the situation. That's a true leader.

Resigning on "moral grounds" is just very H&Dish.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chackojoseph »

This was coming. The chalta hai has crept into this service as per some senior retired naval officers. There was some criticism over his handling of Skipper of ship which had an accident. He is an upright, no nonsense officer. He should take a breath before he acts, say some.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by SwamyG »

More like an act of desperation than a sign of moral responsibility.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Rahul M »

by that token he should accept credit only when he himself does something !! and by that token MMS has no responsibility for the non-performance of his govt !

it does not work that way. if there is indeed a spate of avoidable mishaps the man at top has to take responsibility !

>> More like an act of desperation than a sign of moral responsibility.

how so ?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chackojoseph »

He was asked to resign, says Delhi chatter.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by manjgu »

i speak as a lay person... i dont think that its first time a ship has hit a fishing boat ! nor is this the first time that there is a fire on board a ship/sub ...nor is it the first time that a ship has run aground ....or docked poorly etc. etc. but the degree of media scrutiny has been unprecedented.

I think the local commanders are more culpable abt these incident. I can understand if DK Joshi has resigned after a naval engagement with a enemy ( in which IN came out second best) or after a war ( which resulted in india losing ).

DK Joshi is a solid professional soldier and its sad all this has happened ! i think loss of sindhurakshak under his watch really sealed his fate...any incident has been blown out of proportion. I know its silly and sounds like a grand conspiracy but has there been a calculated move to besmirch Joshi 's tenure as the chief ??? is it a coincidence that all these incidents/accidents got reported when he came into the saddle?

anyway, if has choosen to resign then its a honorable thing to do. I dont know after this resignation what are his local commanders going to do??
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Singha »

The fire in the forward battery compartment triggered off the release of the submarine's 'Lokh' station that discharges Freon gas. Five crewmen who were heli-lifted to safety after inhaling the poisonous gas. Freon is used in submarine fire-fighting systems because it rapidly displaces oxygen in confined spaces and kills fire. It can, however, also prove lethal to crewmen who are not wearing emergency breathing apparatus. The trials were being supervised by the western fleet's Commodore Submarines or Comcos (west).

this is the same system that killed some 20 people onboard INS chakra on pre-delivery trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Russi ... a_accident

this new Lokh automatic system debuted onboard the Chakra(Nerpa)....it is likely similar kind of human or system failure caused this tragedy.
or maybe it worked as designed automatically and the real problem was the fire....but then incase of a real fire how much time do people have to get breathing apparatus on themselves before Lokh system discharges?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by satya »

What was the other option for him ? Write a letter to PM only to be made public & be hounded for doing so . He is an honorable fellow . What about the western fleet commanding officer , where's his honor if there is at all ?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

satya wrote:What was the other option for him ? Write a letter to PM only to be made public & be hounded for doing so . He is an honorable fellow . What about the western fleet commanding officer , where's his honor if there is at all ?
+1

He could have blamed army, like blaming the other political party. He said "I am chief. I need to be held responsible and accountable"
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Singha »

western subs seem to use mostly Halon gas and water mist systems. (see from page11). and when manned the system is made manual start only. it is made automatic only when sub is left unmanned.

http://lup.lub.lu.se/luur/download?func ... Id=2518500
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chackojoseph »

Another source says that he insisted on the resignation and did not leave a scope for anything else.

One of the times when sources go haywire on what actually happened.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by member_23694 »

what will one do if NO Money will be given for modernization :evil:
just wish that services are given the respect that they deserve and provided the necessary funds to take care of
their resources and modernization
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

Let's see how the succession battle plays out.

There are some politically connected heavyweights in the "pipeline".

The whole thing smells. There is a strong whiff of the VK Singh episode.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Singha »

more than that some of the systems installed during the kilo upg like the automatic mode of the LOKH are in question now. remember nearly all our surviving 9 Kilos have it....same system is on INS Chakra and perhaps Arihant as well.

ideally the first of around 10 Scorpenes should have been entering service now if wishes were horses and we had got the first 2 constructed at DCN itself.

mostly all the gora submarine arms are pretenders...the only one with decades of hard fought and safe sub exp on long haul deployments is the USN. maybe we need to swallow our pride and ask for some help on a safety audit?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Lalmohan »

i seem to remember a programme or an article that talked about such fire suppression systems on western subs - and that it would be the sailor's serious misfortunte to be caught in the fire zone when the system comes on. that said, the real problem is the battery fire. its happened before on kilos and it may well be the main culprit in the S-rakshak case

under operational conditions i can imagine that auto fire suppression even with loss of life might be the best thing for the boat overall, but in training times it may not be the best way. perhaps one of our real naval gurus can elaborate on safety engineering aspects
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:more than that some of the systems installed during the kilo upg like the automatic mode of the LOKH are in question now. remember nearly all our surviving 9 Kilos have it....same system is on INS Chakra and perhaps Arihant as well.

ideally the first of around 10 Scorpenes should have been entering service now if wishes were horses and we had got the first 2 constructed at DCN itself.

mostly all the gora submarine arms are pretenders...the only one with decades of hard fought and safe sub exp on long haul deployments is the USN. maybe we need to swallow our pride and ask for some help on a safety audit?
How does one ensure that our friends, the pakis and the cheeni do not partake of the feast of inputs. The CIA and DIA will certainly have overt and covert representation in the composition of any team emanating from stateside. It would be unwise to assume otherwise. Procedures and SOPs in this instance are like the Crown jewels. If the audit is not open it would be meaningless and if open, the findings surfacing in the wrong hands will kill you for sure.

The US is not our friend. They have been seeking to replace US body bags by Indian body bags since forever. If India can take casualties in UN peace keeping service without public outcry, why not the same in US service onlee??. Certainly, the pay of such soldier coolies would be very much better.

We should tread cautiously. The ruski Navy maybe would do a better job.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Victor »

Two serious sub accidents in a space of months has similar effect as 20 aircraft accidents in IAF due to numbers over same timeframe. It would not be such a huge issue if we had 50 subs like we should. Such incidents are routine in active navies, USN having over 20 such in the last decade with nobody resigning.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Brando »

manjgu wrote: I think the local commanders are more culpable abt these incident. I can understand if DK Joshi has resigned after a naval engagement with a enemy ( in which IN came out second best) or after a war ( which resulted in india losing ).
The responsibility ultimately lies with the man at the top - ALWAYS without exception. The fact that Admiral Joshi recognized this and accepted responsibility is to be expected and to be demanded of in a morally responsible society. The fact that it is something we consider so novel or even unnecessary is what is "tragic", not his resignation. This is a concept of responsibility we have never experienced in India because for generations we have been saddled with venal politicians and bureaucrats who never accept any responsibility for anything that goes on.

The commanders/captains should be brought before Admirals Mast to explain themselves. The fact that the Admiral resigned will I think be taken as a sign and a thorough investigation will follow.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Vayutuvan »

Singha wrote:... safe sub exp on long haul deployments is the USN. maybe we need to swallow our pride and ask for some help on a safety audit?
If at all that comes to pass, India should wait till the current US admin is history. President Obama and Secy Kerry leave a very bad taste in my mouth. President Obama has got too many local compulsions the main one being job creation without increasing the tax burden. He would be willing to sacrifice any and every external relation in pursuit of that objective.

Also, some of these safety systems quarantine a part of the facility and people who are left in that part are essentially sacrificed in the interest of the well being of the majority on board, if I understand it right. Terrible for those people who lost their lives and their families but could the outcome of the event been worse? (like Sindhurakshak).
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 26 Feb 2014 20:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Brando »

chetak wrote:We should tread cautiously. The ruski Navy maybe would do a better job.
Or they could try to cover their backsides if they found a technical fault and blame everything on SDRE submariners who don't know anything.

If we want an "outside" review, we have plenty of retired submariners who could easily be drafted by the MoD or the PMO to conduct a thorough investigation into the submarine arm and to provide safety guidelines.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Singha »

Victor wrote:Two serious sub accidents in a space of months has similar effect as 20 aircraft accidents in IAF due to numbers over same timeframe. It would not be such a huge issue if we had 50 subs like we should. Such incidents are routine in active navies, USN having over 20 such in the last decade with nobody resigning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su ... since_2000

other than a small research sub, I can find no evidence of a fire or explosion aboard any western sub at all in the last 12 years. washed overboard, collisions and groundings yes, fires and explosions no. which points to good overall eqpt and procedures among all the major western submarine navies. no reports at all of german and japani navies maybe they are tfta notch above in safety. it cannot be claimed they are hangar queens - usa, uk, france have n-subs and surely have longer patrols than us.

all the catastrophes are either russian or indian incl a russian decomm sub that sank under tow, killing 9!
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:
Victor wrote:Two serious sub accidents in a space of months has similar effect as 20 aircraft accidents in IAF due to numbers over same timeframe. It would not be such a huge issue if we had 50 subs like we should. Such incidents are routine in active navies, USN having over 20 such in the last decade with nobody resigning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su ... since_2000

other than a small research sub, I can find no evidence of a fire or explosion aboard any western sub at all in the last 12 years. washed overboard, collisions and groundings yes, fires and explosions no. which points to good overall eqpt and procedures among all the major western submarine navies. no reports at all of german and japani navies maybe they are tfta notch above in safety. it cannot be claimed they are hangar queens - usa, uk, france have n-subs and surely have longer patrols than us.

all the catastrophes are either russian or indian incl a russian decomm sub that sank under tow, killing 9!
Perhaps you need to look for fire on navy ships?
http://articles.latimes.com/keyword/shi ... s-navy-u-s
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

Brando wrote:
manjgu wrote: I think the local commanders are more culpable abt these incident. I can understand if DK Joshi has resigned after a naval engagement with a enemy ( in which IN came out second best) or after a war ( which resulted in india losing ).
The responsibility ultimately lies with the man at the top - ALWAYS without exception. The fact that Admiral Joshi recognized this and accepted responsibility is to be expected and to be demanded of in a morally responsible society. The fact that it is something we consider so novel or even unnecessary is what is "tragic", not his resignation. This is a concept of responsibility we have never experienced in India because for generations we have been saddled with venal politicians and bureaucrats who never accept any responsibility for anything that goes on.

The commanders/captains should be brought before Admirals Mast to explain themselves. The fact that the Admiral resigned will I think be taken as a sign and a thorough investigation will follow.
The steady string of disasters point more to systemic defects and not individual acts of culpability. The disasters are of recent vintage but seem like a long time coming.

The seeds of the root cause were sown much before. No professional Navy can survive if such disasters can all be traced back to individual acts of omission and commission. Such acts are isolated in nature. Individual failures can be traced back to bad training, poor command selection, bad morale, high individual frustrations, lack of situational awareness, etc. This is certainly not the general case.

Yet we have multiple collisions, multiple groundings, multiple fires. Lessons are usually learned rapidly, SOPs are modified and tested, vigilance is increased and yet somehow the disasters continue.

Frustration certainly played a very big part in Joshi's departure. This symbolic hara kiri must maybe be followed by a good old soviet style purge to cleanse the system.

Just my two paise.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by harbans »

.but then incase of a real fire how much time do people have to get breathing apparatus on themselves before Lokh system discharges?
Firstly Freon is not a poisonous gas and the system is a Halon one. When it is released the compartment must be sealed. People collapse when they cannot exit a compartment where freon or CO2 is released because of lack of oxygen. For people trapped there would be ample EEBDs (Emergency escape breathing devices). Subs have them all over, devices that can be donned easily and give a supply of O2 for a few crucial minutes to exit. Typically pre discharge initiates shrill Audio visual signals that should wake a dead man up.
Last edited by harbans on 26 Feb 2014 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

Brando wrote:
chetak wrote:We should tread cautiously. The ruski Navy maybe would do a better job.
Or they could try to cover their backsides if they found a technical fault and blame everything on SDRE submariners who don't know anything.

If we want an "outside" review, we have plenty of retired submariners who could easily be drafted by the MoD or the PMO to conduct a thorough investigation into the submarine arm and to provide safety guidelines.
If any technical faults were to be found, it would be very difficult, even impossible to suppress. Kilos are internationally used. There is a large export business involved in their refits and upgrades.

The russians would be very worried if their markets were to be dented and equally as would a lot of the spooked Kilo class operators. A quick and safe resolution is what everyone is looking for.

The retired guys would have already been drafted, albeit unofficially.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Austin »

Defence Minister AK Antony should resign first during his tenure armed forces morale had hit low and critical purchase delayed or frozen in the guise of fighting corruption , from a government thats most corrupt since independence.

Navy Chief was just made a scape goat
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

matrimc wrote:
Singha wrote:... safe sub exp on long haul deployments is the USN. maybe we need to swallow our pride and ask for some help on a safety audit?
If at all that comes to pass, India should wait till the current US admin is history. President Obama and Secy Kerry leave a very bad taste in my mouth. President Obama has got too many local compulsions the main one being job creation without increasing the tax burden. He would be willing to sacrifice any and every external relation in pursuit of that objective.

Also, some of these safety systems quarantine a part of the facility and people who are left in that part are essentially sacrificed in the interest of the well being of the majority on board, if I understand it right. Terrible for those people who lost their lives and their families but could the outcome of the event been worse? (like Sindhurakshak).
Such is life in the Navy, any Navy. It goes with the territory. People, specially youngsters still sign up to serve. In India, this fact does not seem to count. These patriotic people are seen as "paid to die" even while others are "paid to cavort" in their lal bathhi cars with SPG protection.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Karan M »

the writing was on the wall when srakshak blew up and defmin made an uncharacteristic reference to navy should preserve vital assets, they are expensive etc. basically antony had data at hand and wanted either solutions or a person to blame (take your pick). the string of accidents thereafter hasnt done us any good either.

austin, after 26/11 how many civilian or political resignations did we see?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Austin »

^^ None after 26/11 , those politician who resigned were accommodated at center or later at state , AFAIK no babus or police resigned too.

Seems like DK Joshi had 16 Months more to go ..... why dont Def Secretary and Def Minister resign too.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Karan M »

^^ None after 26/11 , those politician who resigned were accommodated at center or later at state , AFAIK no babus or police resigned too.

---exactly. the UPA has set new benchmarks for corruption, lack of accountability and misgovernance. why will they ever resign?
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:Defence Minister AK Antony should resign first during his tenure armed forces morale had hit low and critical purchase delayed or frozen in the guise of fighting corruption , from a government thats most corrupt since independence.

Navy Chief was just made a scape goat
Andhonee has served the family well. He has highhandedly curtailed defence expenditure so as to feed the mad cap schemes dreamed up by the anti national NAC. He has fulfilled his mandate. Now it is up to a grateful country to come through and vote rahul baba into power.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by chetak »

harbans wrote:
.but then incase of a real fire how much time do people have to get breathing apparatus on themselves before Lokh system discharges?
Firstly Freon is not a poisonous gas and the system is a Halon one. When it is released the compartment must be sealed. People collapse when they cannot exit a compartment where freon or CO2 is released because of lack of oxygen. For people trapped there would be ample EEBDs (Emergency escape breathing devices). Subs have them all over, devices that can be donned easily and give a supply of O2 for a few crucial minutes to exit. Typically pre discharge initiates shrill Audio visual signals that should wake a dead man up.
In emergencies, some compartments on a sub get sealed off automatically sir. If the Navy has said that the two officers are presumed dead, it means that they have not yet opened the compartment or established communication with the two officers.

Sometimes, responsible personnel are duty bound to rush into the accident zone even while some others may be asked to evacuate the same zone. Karma
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by Rahul M »

Austin wrote:^^ None after 26/11 , those politician who resigned were accommodated at center or later at state , AFAIK no babus or police resigned too.
not sacked or resigned but the intel heads of the region were given punishment postings.
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by shiv »

chetak wrote: The steady string of disasters point more to systemic defects and not individual acts of culpability. The disasters are of recent vintage but seem like a long time coming.
India certainly has had its share of naval bumbling. Some serious re-examination of safety procedures needs to be done. This is a phase of massive expansion of the navy
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by KJo »

Rahul M wrote:by that token he should accept credit only when he himself does something !! and by that token MMS has no responsibility for the non-performance of his govt !

it does not work that way. if there is indeed a spate of avoidable mishaps the man at top has to take responsibility !

>> More like an act of desperation than a sign of moral responsibility.

how so ?
What I am saying is that resignation is not the answer. It looks like an attempt to be a martyr. That crook VP Singh played this same card over and over again "I walk around my PM office with a resignation letter in my pocket".
The authorities (whoever it is) appointed him to the role. It is a leadership role where the person fixes things that have gone wrong. This kind of resigning on moral grounds is just an attempt to claim high moral ground. It looks like he is in deeper trouble over something we don't know.

So as the boss, he is responsible. But he took the cowards way out by running away. He should have come up with a plan instead.

It is another matter if he feels that he is incapable to fix the problem. In that case, he is right to resign.
harbans
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Re: Navy Chief Resigns over Sindhuratna fire

Post by harbans »

In emergencies, some compartments on a sub get sealed off automatically sir.
Just curious but in Sindhuraksha/Sindhughosh or even Chakra or Vikrant which compartments are sealed automatically in case of emergency? Fire doors with magnetic microswitches can get activated and close up but nothing that someone trapped inside compartments cannot open and exit.
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