Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 18 Oct 2014 22:44

Noob question-

Post ignition, once the missile lifts-off from the vertical scaffold/frame, what tech ensures that it does not hit against the scaffold from inside until its entire 24-feet length is ejected. Is there some kind of controlled contact maintained like a groove or something (say like a rifled bullet) to prevent unwanted hit against the sides?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Oct 2014 22:54

Whats amazing is there are now three missile developers in India- ASL, DRDL and now ADE. Once sensor abd eng development is finished even in Mk1, the pvt sector can become fully involved in designing their own platforms too since subsystems will be available.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Oct 2014 23:29

YashG wrote:
Austin wrote:From Mars Mission to navigation satellites to N-capable missiles: India scores big scientifically
Thanks for sharing but guys unless you're a great fan of nationalistic jingoism, you should take Rajeev Sharma's articles with more than a pinch of salt. He may be right but I will like to listen the same words from someone more critically acclaimed.

Rajeev Sharma has simply stated these facts--India is the first country to succeed in orbiting Mars on the try, it has just launched a nav-comm sat and a long range cruise missile. All of these came back to back. Does someone need to be critically acclaimed to state that the sun rises in the east?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Oct 2014 23:54

Is there information on what engine was used on the Nirbhay?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2014 23:59

So this new Nirbhay at 1500 kg is different than the original version at 1000 kg.
The solid booster is just s cylinder with a nozzle at other end. Besides the hot exhaust would corrode most of the cylinder.
One can calculate the possible areas where it would fall. When does it separate;height;velocity. Can assume drag and lift and figure out where it falls.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 Oct 2014 02:07

putnanja wrote:Is there information on what engine was used on the Nirbhay?

Nobody will. We don't build one in house and we can't use on from abroad. All we know is that we bought 200 TRDD 50MT engines in 2007 from Russia which provide the same power as required by Nirbhay. But Laghu Shakti will soon replace them.

ramana wrote:So this new Nirbhay at 1500 kg is different than the original version at 1000 kg.

This is the original version. Rest all were speculations.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Oct 2014 02:41

The 1500 kg is with war head. I believe without warhead it is still 1000 kg?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:09

The aim for Nirbhay

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 76295.aspx

The subsonic missile flew at speeds of 0.7 Mach to 0.8 Mach, roughly the same as commercial airliners, before striking its target. Congratulating defence scientists, Prime Minister Narendra Modi said the successful launch would provide “great impetus to our capabilities.”

The DRDO plans to conduct at least five more tests over the next three years before declaring Nirbhay ready for induction in the armed forces.

Chander said, “The Nirbhay can easily pick precise targets like a building in a cluster of buildings. The missile can be guided by multiple navigation modes to eliminate the risk of jamming.”

Low-flying cruise missiles such as the Nirbhay can easily slip past enemy air-defence systems due to small radar cross section. The Nirbhay will be configured to be launched from multiple platforms such as land, air and sea.

Chander said, “Nirbhay would fill a vital gap between supersonic cruise missiles and long-range ballistic missiles in the Indian arsenal.”

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:10

http://www.punemirror.in/pune/others/Ni ... 861973.cms

Speaking to Mirror, a senior official from DRDO, said, "The scientists from High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), Research and Development (R&D) in Dighi and Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE) — all laboratories of DRDO — have contributed to the project

Elated with Friday's success, retired Indian Army officers from the city welcomed the success and termed it as an 'answer' to Pakistan's Babur. Speaking to Mirror, Lieutenant General (Retd) D B Shekatkar, a commander with a vast experience in combating insurgency in Jammu and Kashmir and the North East, said, "Nirbhay, with its long-range capability, can easily target objects till Lahore in Pakistan. Such a missile can play a very crucial role in war. It is a strong answer to Pakistan. Besides, with this success, we have proved that we can develop such missiles
indigenously, too."

Echoing the same, Lt Gen (retd) BT Pandit said, "This missile will fill the vacuum in India's arsenal. As of today, we have the 290-km range supersonic 'BrahMos' cruise missile which is jointly developed by India and Russia. However, Nirbhay is a giant step forward in India's technological capabilities for design development and production of state-of-the-art weapons and equipment for the country's armed forces."

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:12

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2014/20141018/main5.htm

Das said Nirbhay covered a distance of over 1,000 km during its 73.12 minute flight during today’s test.

The DRDO is developing an air-launched version of the 1,500-km-range missile, which would be capable of being fired from the air force’s frontline Su-30MKI combat aircraft, sources said.

Long-range arsenal

‘Nirbhay’, being built indigenously by the DRDO, has a capacity to hit targets at a distance of 1,500 km

It has good loitering capability, high degree of accuracy in terms of impact and unique stealth features

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:17

The cruise missile, powered by a solid rocket motor booster developed by the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL) took off majestically from a mobile launcher specifically designed for ‘Nirbhay’ by the Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (VRDE), both being DRDO laboratories.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 483479.ece

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:20

AFP
http://www.dawn.com/news/1138743/india- ... se-missile

India, which shares borders with Pakistan and China, both of which are nuclear-armed, is developing the missile system to strengthen its air-defence capabilities.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:21

http://www.firstpost.com/fwire/modi-lau ... 61963.html

New Delhi, Oct 17 (IANS) Prime Minister Narendra Modi Friday congratulated Indian scientists on the successful test-firing of the Nirbhay missile.

"Congratulations to our scientists on the successful test-fire of the Nirbhay missile. This is a great impetus to our defence capabilities," the prime minister said in a tweet.

Nuclear-capable Nirbhay cruise missile was successfully test-fired from a test range in Odisha Friday.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:25

http://www.janes.com/article/44688/indi ... se-missile

The Nirbhay shares a similar physical profile with the US Tomahawk and Russian Kh-55 cruise missiles, featuring a slim cylindrical fuselage and a set of folding, pop-out wings for flight control. IHS Jane's notes that the missile is approximately 6 m long with a diameter of 520 mm and a wingspan of 3.2 m.

It is believed to have a payload of 450 kg, which would suggest a high explosive, submunitions or small nuclear warhead, possibly in the 12 kT range.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:26

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 455_1.html

Wing Commander (retired) Praful Bakshi on Friday said the 'Nirbhay' cruise missile, which was test fired successfully at the Integrated Missile Test Range in Balasore today, will vastly improve the efficiency and the firepower of all three armed forces.

"This missile can carry nuclear warheads and is a very effective weapon system in itself. It adds to the efficiency and the firepower of all the three services," Bakshi told ANI.

Bakshi said that the new cruise missile 'Nirbhay' has the capability to strike deep within the enemy territory with great accuracy.

"India is quite advanced in missile technology, especially in the ballistic missile technology. This cruise missile is a long range cruise missile which can move at a height of even 10-15 feet from the surface which makes it undetectable by the radar. It can strike accurately deep within the enemy territory," Bakshi added.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:29

http://www.brahmand.com/news/Fury-and-G ... /1/15.html

Supply chain excellence

BrahMos is an excellent example of collaborative excellence in a supply chain. It has led to the establishment of a robust Missile Industrial Complex (MIC) in both India and Russia. The MIC is a conglomeration of public and private sector defence firms in both the countries that have been actively involved in developing, producing and supplying various critical systems and sub-systems for the weapon. As already mentioned, there are over 200 companies (205 to be precise) as part of this supply chain at present from India.

"Since the demand for BrahMos is quite high, with present orders for it worth over thousands of crores, it is our topmost priority to meet the delivery timelines and ensure users' satisfaction. And in order to meet our deadlines, we need to systematically manage our supply chain. One focus area here is full capacity building, to ensure production of the entire BrahMos system in both the countries. Being JV partners, our goal is to ensure that both countries should be able to produce 100 percent of the missile in India as well as Russia." This means, all the associated partners should produce and supply the necessary components ensuring interchangeablity by following common standards, which will ensure meeting the user requirements. "This will not only double up our scale of production, but would also enable us to meet any immediate or future large-scale requirements."

Readying for the skies

At present, the BrahMos Missile can be launched from land and water. Work is in progress to make it deployable by the Air Force as well. "We are hopeful that the first flight trial of BRAHMOS-A from the Su-30MKI will take place by early next year. BrahMos Aerospace is closely coordinating with HAL, the Indian Air Force and our Russian partners to ensure that the maiden trial of the BrahMos airlaunched version takes place at the earliest as deliveries are to be commenced from 2016," Mishra says. BrahMos Aerospace is also planning to develop a 'mini' version of the missile and the organisation is currently doing a feasibility study for the new revolutionary weapon. The primary features of the new missile would be that it will be lighter, smaller, more agile, highly lethal and more precise over its predecessor. It will have a top speed of Mach 3.5. The weapon will carry a similar payload and will have the same range like its predecessor. "However, BrahMos-Mini will be around six metres in size. Our main purpose of developing BrahMos-Mini is to ensure that it is deployed on a larger number of military platforms. In particular, torpedo tubes of submarines and fighter aircraft like SU-30 MKI, MiG-29 and FGFA. We have just initiated work on the new project and it will take around three years to design, develop and validate this miniature variant of BrahMos." As of now, BrahMos Aerospace has set the date for the year 2017-2018 by which time the new missile would be inducted into our armed forces.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 05:31

Interesting times..Nirbhay confirmed to be 1000km + (1500km), has seeker, can loiter. Brahmos-mini on the way..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Oct 2014 05:32

ramana, why acoustic noise a concern for launching? unless it is expected (ops) to be launched from civilian areas.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Oct 2014 05:39

One aspect of Nirbhay that is left unstated is it gives India the same precision strike capability that the US uses to attack terrorists all over the world with out breaking any redlines etc.

Agni type are clearly escalatory..
Sauce for the goose and all that....

There fore expect rhona dhona from usual suspects who had no problems with Pak missiles!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Oct 2014 05:40

SaiK,
Acoustic noise is an esoteric load not easy to mitigate.

GSLV last flight was suspected to have been subjected to that.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Oct 2014 06:17

saw a nasa channel program about a langley research on noise predictions. there was also a nasa/lm for ng aircrafts with reduce noise signature that does not create objectionable sounds to be people living around airports. they also showed the open rotor (counter rotating specially designed blades for reducing noise). don't recollect everything though.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 19 Oct 2014 07:35

SaiK wrote:ramana, why acoustic noise a concern for launching? unless it is expected (ops) to be launched from civilian areas.

For a vehicles with solid motors it is not a big concern as the liquid engine ones. For the liquid one, the fuel which is liquid will start vibrating according to the noise and will create trouble for the electronics and its frequencies. So if the noise is measured & predicted with troughs, another noise is created to cancel the noise

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 19 Oct 2014 07:43

Electro optical tracking system, fitted with cameras to track Nirbhay at ITR.

High gain telemetry to capture health of a long range missile.Used first time during #Nirbhay launch.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 19 Oct 2014 07:50

Nuclear-capable Nirbhay missile successfully test fired

...
In Friday’s test, the Nirbhay demonstrated its entire bag of tricks. Launched from a canister, it blasted off vertically like a conventional rocket, then quickly levelled off into horizontal flight, or “cruise mode”. The solid rocket motor was quickly jettisoned and its second-stage, turbofan engine started up, propelling the missile forward.

Over the next 70 minutes, the missile navigated its way to 15 pre-designated “way points”, using a sophisticated inertial navigation system, which can take assistance from the GPS satellite network. Halfway through the test, the Nirbhay did a pre-programmed U-turn and headed back to Chandipur. After travelling 1,050 kilometres, the test was terminated and the missile splashed into the Bay of Bengal.
...
...
“The missile maintained an accuracy better than 10 meters throughout its path and covered a distance of more than 1,000 km. The successful indigenous development of Nirbhay cruise missile will fill a vital gap in the war fighting capabilities of our armed forces”, said DRDO chief, Dr Avinash Chander.
...
...
The missile tested today carried a warhead of 350 kilogrammes; that is the weight of a sophisticated nuclear weapon with a modern design.

The Nirbhay tested today was 7.5 metres long, which allows it to be configured for launch from land, sea, underwater and air.
...
..
India and Russia legally collaborated in developing the Brahmos supersonic cruise missile because its range was pegged at 295 kilometres, just below the MTCR limit. In building the Nirbhay, however, India has had to go it alone.

The key design challenge, which was to develop an air-breathing turbine engine that can propel the Nirbhay, was met by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore.

Pakistan, which has earlier tested and deployed the Babur (Hatf VII) cruise missile, is believed to have been supplied the engine by China, in violation of the MTCR.
...

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 19 Oct 2014 08:06

Chaiwala says the Brahmos engine is being manufactured in India

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Oct 2014 08:28

Agni 5 and Agni 6(MIRV).

K-5 SLBM

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Oct 2014 10:17

Thakur thanks.

ArunS drew similar sketches years ago and was pooh poohed.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 19 Oct 2014 10:36

That 5000 Km range now becomes suddenly "suspect" . Its the we "Yindoos are dumb onleee - Can make IRBM's onleee seee "

I remember lots of news media cribbing about its 5000 Kms range.
In some ways why not just say 5500 + and end all speculations.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 Oct 2014 10:48

Well I wonder why 17m long A6 is 5k km but 12 m K5 is 6k+ km.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 19 Oct 2014 11:05

Hearty congratulations to DRDO to make this test successful. Huge burden seems to have eased with the test launch of this missile, IAF particulerly may have huge sigh of relief in terms of its concern for its long range bombing capability of Pak Airfield somewhere around NWFP, as IAF may no longer need to do risky mission to take out Airfield with Bombers. Although precision guided bombing is still based on Fighter jet, but given our hostile situation on our border, we may no longer required to feel concerned about Pak's long range Babur Cruise missile.

As usual, there are challanges we have been facing in every other missile development program in terms of opertionalizing developed missile, we really need worked upon closing the gap between development to inductions so as to fight the conflict on our terms as declared by our present government. At least for time being, we need to put basic version of this missile into service as fast as possible to deter Pakistan, as now their major Army GHQ's, Airfields, Gwadar port, and terror hideouts are now well withing the range of Nirbhay. We may take, let's say next two year to put Nirbhay's basic version in service, given Pakistan's absent Anti-Air defence capability. We may take time to develop Nirbhay's Propulsion technology, Advanced navigation and evasion of advanced Chinese SAM's.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 19 Oct 2014 11:50

ramana wrote:Thakur thanks.

ArunS drew similar sketches years ago and was pooh poohed.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 Oct 2014 12:14

Bihanga wrote:Hearty congratulations to DRDO to make this test successful. Huge burden seems to have eased with the test launch of this missile, IAF particulerly may have huge sigh of relief in terms of its concern for its long range bombing capability of Pak Airfield somewhere around NWFP, as IAF may no longer need to do risky mission to take out Airfield with Bombers......

Seriously, what are you smoking when you write such things? I mean why do you write with such deep set fear in your minds. Your internal trepidation being passed on to the IAF? Which fear inducing hallucinogic is it? If the IAF is that freaking concerned and scared may just disband it no? I mean if a military force is scared of taking on the enemy then why spend on it?

Celebrate each success without any urge to put down some one else. The IAF have your backs covered.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 14:23

Deejay ji, I dont think he meant it as a slam on the IAF ; se language being merely used to lend some emphasis. Merely as a remark that its safer to send missiles than aircraft deep into enemy territory. Same reason why they and every AF is investing in long range PGMs and missiles. I for one will be much happier when IAF get Brahmos, Nirbhay in substantial numbers so they can combat S3XX class systems or undertake very deep strike missions without risking men (most important) and aircraft. We only have 700 odd aircraft and perhaps twice that number of aircrew. Every attempt must be made to give them more long range munitions.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 19 Oct 2014 14:46

deejay wrote:
Bihanga wrote:Hearty congratulations to DRDO to make this test successful. Huge burd seems to have eased with the test launch of this missile, IAF particulerly may have huge sigh of relief in terms of its concern for its long range bombing capability of Pak Airfield somewhere around NWFP, as IAF may no longer need to do risky mission to take out Airfield with Bombers......
Seriously, what are you smoking when you write such things? I mean why do you write with such deep set fear in your minds. Your internal trepidation being passed on to the IAF? Which fear inducing hallucinogic is it? If the IAF is that freaking concerned and scared may just disband it no? I mean if a military force is scared of taking on the enemy then why spend on it?

Celebrate each success without any urge to put down some one else. The IAF have your backs covered.

Smoking?

Which world are you living any way!

I used words concern and risky , which doesn't imply fear of IAF or myself unless you people fail to use pinch of sense to cover rest of my post about the use of bomber in precision bombing. Yes, Nirbhay CM can be substitued for long range bombing of airfields and army bunkers, as there is no need to FEAR aerial or air defence interception. PAF as force has got good interception capability by investing in BVR capable F-16 with awacs cover which can be overcome now with our own CM, a salvo of which can do much better job of pulverizing Pak fighting capability without FEAR of losing bombers. Stealth bomber capability of USAF doesn't imply they are fear to use conventional fighter jet, but use of caution operating in hostile airspace.

Current border assult between the two nation is an acute example of this, as we never forseen use of long range mortar by Pak which we effectively answered with our own mortar fire without sending actual jawan across the border to settle the score, again which doesn't imply we are fearful of the sending the one.

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Oct 2014 14:52

Hi Res Images of Oct. 2014 Nirbhay launch.

1.9MB:

Nirbhay 01

1.7MB:

Nirbhay 02

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 15:38

Oh those are great.
Now I only hope IA/IAF get this and Prahar in enormous numbers.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 Oct 2014 15:40

@ Bihanga: Huge burden vs. Huge Advantage? IAF particularly may have huge sigh of relief vs. IAF particularly may have a lip smacking alternative. Semantics, but reflects how one sees a situation. BTW: Your response to my post was perfect.

@Karan M: You are right. He meant it that way. Our collective consciousness makes our political will. Now, I am not advocating hard nosed nonsensical aggression but an effort to - whats the word - 'deracinate' ourselves from this 'defensive' view point will help us in looking at problems in the way we should (IMVHO). Also, I get taken aback when such softness is displayed on BRF. I am quite used to hear it in my local environment and I still try to get folks see ourselves in a new light on military matters at least.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 Oct 2014 15:43

SaiK wrote:^nash's link:

A submerged air intake, which is just a hole in the belly of the missile and deployment of folded wing into the flight configuration are two critical technological challenged we overcame in this project

I think those intakes are referred to as 'recessed' or 'flush'.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 15:46

Are Deejay sir I am a firm believer in the school of give 10x back. Glad to have you educating the peacenik crowd about the requirements. I think it's even better when we have an overwhelming advantage. Nothing better will demo our contempt for TSP when in response to their sabre rattling, our response, based on missile capability, would be that it would take merely a push of the button to reduce them to smithereens and we wouldn't even bother our aircrew for such a mundane task. They only take on good opponents.

In that vein I propose IAF procure additional missile squadrons of Brahmos, Prahaar and Nirbhay. Squadron cap is only on aircraft, no.

Before IAF visits Sargodha, announcement of visit should be from these little friends.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 15:54

BTW Nirbhay with seeker, possible on the fly retargeting (if not now then possible tomorrow), another ARM seeker being developed, loiter capability... The mind boggles with possibilities inherent when all these subsystems are available. Now only to get turbofans up and running. In a pinch though even lakshyas would do. Perhaps time to repurpose all the older MiGs for one last mission rather than scrapping them.