Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 19 Oct 2014 16:17

>> Perhaps time to repurpose all the older MiGs for one last mission rather than scrapping them.

my dream project.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 19 Oct 2014 17:48

Karan M wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/44688/indi ... se-missile

The Nirbhay shares a similar physical profile with the US Tomahawk and Russian Kh-55 cruise missiles, featuring a slim cylindrical fuselage and a set of folding, pop-out wings for flight control. IHS Jane's notes that the missile is approximately 6 m long with a diameter of 520 mm and a wingspan of 3.2 m.

It is believed to have a payload of 450 kg, which would suggest a high explosive, submunitions or small nuclear warhead, possibly in the 12 kT range.

Not just the ranges of missiles even the mass to yield never changes. 450 kg for 12 kt

.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Oct 2014 17:48

Now we just have to produce 1000's of them and gift wrap them like this

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Oct 2014 18:57

As per Ananth Krishnan, Nirbhay's army variant will be ready by 2017, naval variant by 2018 and air launched variant by 2020.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 20:54

Thakurrrrrrrr, jingo khush hua!!!!!
If the IA variant is first.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 19 Oct 2014 20:57

2017 seems a long time. May be they can start to manufacture the missile in small numbers in the present configuration. from 2017, we could mass manufacture.
The current one, can be mark-1 and the mark-II can start coming from 2017.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Oct 2014 20:59

Uddu, they want to make a truly modern system with seeker ityadi. In the meantime IA, IAF, In will get Brahmos.

member_28797 · Post by **member_28797** » 19 Oct 2014 22:10

Why does it take 3 years to just modify a proven system according to requirements? Just a poonch

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 19 Oct 2014 23:48

abhik wrote:Now we just have to produce 1000's of them and gift wrap them like this

This was my Jingo wet dream. Like the disguised merchant raiders of WW1, 3 to 4 Panamaxclass Container ships cruising unobtrusively in international waters off the Eastern Seaboard in the S. China Sea on patrol. 1 Brahmos in each vertical row of containers. A deck configuration of half of these boxes in a 13 by 10 matrix.

Moment war is declared, ships slink in 50 kms, off go the hatches and you have 130x 4 Brahmos hurtling towards Hainan. Dailan, Shanghai and key Naval ports.

Advantages:
1) At less than USD 100 mn per vessel,other than the armament cost, and cost of operation, the vessel is extremely cheap. Say with modifications it will come to USD 250 mn+ Armament Cost~USD 390 mn=Total<< USD 700 mn
2) Likely to be unmolested in high seas if we can fly under flag of convenience

Disadvantages:
1) Crew life (naval undercover) will be risky, almost forfeit once they are discovered
2) Necessity of foreign collaboration needed, for example other friendly country, who will berth them, move around a few containers, ask no questions and let them travel back to India.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 Oct 2014 03:10

narendranaik wrote:Why does it take 3 years to just modify a proven system according to requirements? Just a poonch

Due to high system complexity, successful system integration will take that long. In fact 3 years is short, considering how many components should be independently tested and also tested after system integration.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Oct 2014 04:50

LokeshC wrote:
narendranaik wrote:Why does it take 3 years to just modify a proven system according to requirements? Just a poonch
Due to high system complexity, successful system integration will take that long. In fact 3 years is short, considering how many components should be independently tested and also tested after system integration.

Plus, the users expect testing in all Indian conditions: summer in desert, winter in mountains, etc. That alone adds 2 or more years especially if there are some technical glitches in one of those tests. After fixing, they would have to wait for the next annual cycle to arrive.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Oct 2014 05:52

the users expect testing in all Indian conditions: summer in desert, winter in mountains, etc. That alone adds 2 or more years especially if there are some technical glitches in one of those tests

Time India built climate controlled test buildings. (with that black money it should be a breeze.) It is ridiculous to wait for the seasons to arrive to test these things.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 20 Oct 2014 07:52

Bihanga wrote:..with the test launch of this missile, IAF particulerly may have huge sigh of relief in terms of its concern for its long range bombing capability of Pak Airfield somewhere around NWFP, as IAF may no longer need to do risky mission to take out Airfield with Bombers. Although precision guided bombing is still based on Fighter jet,

Don't know what you are trying to say but two points come to mind: 1) Nirbhay is overkill for paki airfields in NWFP or anywhere else there. It is for more important targets. Every square inch of the sh!thole is within easy reach of and zeroed in by Brahmos for 1st strike. 2) IAF will need to manually finish the job after 1st strike and by all accounts, every pilot prays that he gets a chance before he retires. Where does "sigh of relief" come in?

but given our hostile situation on our border, we may no longer required to feel concerned about Pak's long range Babur Cruise missile.

Again, this sounds *strange* but let it go. What does Nirbhay have to do with Babur? The Phalcons with look-down linked to Su30s are expected to look after them. But the larger question is: if a Babur makes it thru, what do the pakis expect in retaliation? We know that they are stupid, but exactly how stupid?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2014 08:10

Nirbhay is not an answer to Babur. It can never be. You cannot neutralize one cruise missile threat with another. I am not sure why the media and others are drawing comparisons and talking as if some kind of equivalence exists between Babur and Nirbhay

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Oct 2014 08:29

nirbhay is said to cost 10 crore in rupees. ie only $1.6 million. thats also cost of blockIV Thawk per wiki! so we are in ballpark from word go.
the brahmos apart from a much lower range is said to cost $10 mil each which makes it unaffordable for huge production...it can be used for heavily defended hard targets like radars, airbases, underground bunkers....and nirbhay for most other targets and targets beyond the range of brahmos as a 2nd option.

we will have to carefully control the usage of brahmos in a war situation given its high cost.

likewise Sudarshan needs to be a VFM option from word go.

partha · Post by **partha** » 20 Oct 2014 08:36

shiv wrote:Nirbhay is not an answer to Babur. It can never be. You cannot neutralize one cruise missile threat with another. I am not sure why the media and others are drawing comparisons and talking as if some kind of equivalence exists between Babur and Nirbhay

One NDTV report by Pallav Bagla also 'informed' the readers that Nirbhay is an answer to American Tomahawk missile as if Tomahawk was a question to India.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 20 Oct 2014 11:52

Tomahawk missiles cost 1~1.5 million dollars a pop and newer versions expected to cost half as much http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm. Nirbhay should cost same to half price of Tomahawks ....

Brahmos cannot cost 10 million which is 1/2 to 1/3rd price of Tejas plane. If this is anywhere correct then another case of been milked by our long standing Rusi friends.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Oct 2014 12:14

Cost of Bramos and Nirbhay seems to be quite exagarated. Nirbhay price may be making of a one missile in a lab conditions and it may not be the same as the one made in a production line. We have to wait and see. Couple of thousands of these babys will make pakis sweat very hard. All around good news.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 20 Oct 2014 13:20

Quiet right. The real cost can be calculated accurately only after x number are committed for a production run.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 20 Oct 2014 13:38

Singha wrote:nirbhay is said to cost 10 crore in rupees. ie only $1.6 million. thats also cost of blockIV Thawk per wiki! so we are in ballpark from word go.
the brahmos apart from a much lower range is said to cost $10 mil each which makes it unaffordable for huge production...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 006146.cms

The Navy, in turn, has ordered 49 BrahMos firing units at a cost of Rs 711 crore for now. All the tests of the BrahMos naval version, both anti-ship and land-attack ones, have been successful till now.

That's Rs.14.50 crore.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Oct 2014 13:45

Is firing unit == a missile.

Or a firing unit is Missile + launch tube+ fire control system.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Oct 2014 14:31

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Now we just have to produce 1000's of them and gift wrap them like this

This has more details:

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2014 14:45

hecky wrote:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 006146.cms

Any particular reason for posting this article, dated as follows here:

Rajat Pandit, TNN | Jan 21, 2009, 12.00AM IST

member_28714 · Post by **member_28714** » 20 Oct 2014 15:02

shiv wrote:
hecky wrote:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 006146.cms
Any particular reason for posting this article, dated as follows here:
Rajat Pandit, TNN | Jan 21, 2009, 12.00AM IST

He was trying to give an indication of bramhos costs.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Oct 2014 15:07

On the cost, here is something to chew upon.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/rs-8- ... les-281589
Rs. 8,000 crore cleared for BrahMos, Invar missiles

Sources told NDTV that the CCS cleared the Rs. 6,000 crore plan to acquire the air-launched version of the BrahMos missile for India's main stay fighter plane Su-30 MKi.

...
The Indian Air Force is expected to get about 200 of these missiles. Su-30 MKi will have to be modified to enable them to carry the air version of the BrahMos.

For the Air launched version it works out to about 30 crore per missile.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 15:32

Barring a gyroscopic stabilized platform what will be the difference between a ship launched and a road launched Nirbhay ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Oct 2014 15:57

L&T already makes the UVML for Brahmos so making a similar one for Nirbhay should not be an issue.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Oct 2014 16:22

Thakur_B wrote:
Agni 5 and Agni 6(MIRV).

Agni-6 Throw up weight of 3T is very impressive for total weight of 56 T , Shows high use of composite material for casing of stage.

Compare that SU SS-24 and US Peacekeeper had throw up weight of 4 T for gross weight of ICBM at 105 T for SS-24 and 98 T for Peacekeeper

For 1 Ton less throw up weight they shaved of nearly 40-50 T of Gross Weight

The range for Agni-6 would easily be ~ 10,000 km , twice that what they are trying to advertise .... This thing is in category of Peacekeeper , SS-24 , SS-19 Heavy ICBM

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Oct 2014 16:24

3 Tonne weight should be good enough for MIRV's and wonder whats the weight with 1 tonne warhead?

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 20 Oct 2014 16:32

Range with a one tonne warhead

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Oct 2014 18:34

2x200kg maal can be housed in a 450kg payload space.

my vision and our lab boys mission: independently self-guided maals!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Oct 2014 19:24

negi wrote:L&T already makes the UVML for Brahmos so making a similar one for Nirbhay should not be an issue.

The universal launcher can launch Klub and Brahmos and iirc Nirbhay is supposed to use the same launcher.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Oct 2014 19:25

Range with 1 T warhead with 50,000 Gross weight for Agni-5 would be in range of 10000-12000 Km ..Similar to Topol-M , which has similar throw up weight and range.

prataparudra · Post by **prataparudra** » 20 Oct 2014 20:08

Watched the video of Dr. Saraswat presentation. A few thoughts of my own. With research experience in US universities, I can say that some of the technologies that DRDO is aiming to achieve, would require a lot of investment in research tools, personnel etc, that Its hard for me to believe that they would be realized in any time soon.

Each of the bullet points in his presentation, be it Structures, materials, engines, guidance&navigation would require a lot of people with advanced degree and interest in these fields and years and years of research, and still they have to be lucky.

It almost feels like DRDO short lists all the cutting edge tech,science (typically borrowed from overseas) and then throws people and money at it , and see if they can figure it out. The advantage of this approach is that you are really not working on any project that has no real end use, unlike west (US) where lot of research is done without immediate clear goals.
The disadvantages are many, first you are always playing catchup. Secondly, you only have few teams or people working at it, versus, west where multiple universities work on similar projects. Hence significant delay in figuring out stuff, if at all the Indian teams get lucky.

I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 20 Oct 2014 20:25

pankajs wrote:On the cost, here is something to chew upon.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/rs-8- ... les-281589
Rs. 8,000 crore cleared for BrahMos, Invar missiles
Sources told NDTV that the CCS cleared the Rs. 6,000 crore plan to acquire the air-launched version of the BrahMos missile for India's main stay fighter plane Su-30 MKi.

...
The Indian Air Force is expected to get about 200 of these missiles. Su-30 MKi will have to be modified to enable them to carry the air version of the BrahMos.
For the Air launched version it works out to about 30 crore per missile.

We don't really know what all is included in that price. Ground crew training, maintenance infrastructure, modification of Su-30MKI, etc., etc.,

This is similar to the recent news of DAC clearing procurement of 118 Arjun Mk II tanks for Rs 6,600 crore. The cost of one Arjun MKII is Rs. 34 crore and the rest is for the associated infrastructure.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 Oct 2014 20:28

prataparudra wrote:......
I sincerely hope , the government looks into attracting more Phds with higher stipends, NRI professors with exact pay package as in us and investment in research tools and BIG BIG investements for design iterations and prototype testing. Without this, a big portion of what Dr. Saraswat presented will remain a dream.

It will remain a dream. If NRI profs are paid US wages in India, or even if they are non-Indians, there will be a huge uproar. This has been tried before and it did not work and it will not work. Heck, it did not even work at the private primary/secondary school level.

The way to do this might be to have privately funded research institutes constituted as independent research arms of companies. IOW, not universities. The Indian system is fatally flawed from a R&D perspective.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 20 Oct 2014 20:38

shiv wrote:Nirbhay is not an answer to Babur. It can never be. You cannot neutralize one cruise missile threat with another. I am not sure why the media and others are drawing comparisons and talking as if some kind of equivalence exists between Babur and Nirbhay

Nirbhay is not an answer to Babur but Akash is

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 20 Oct 2014 20:59

Who gave bakistani cruise missile? They do not make even sounding rockets.....even Dipavli pathkas.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Oct 2014 21:10

Pukes gave the remnants of the tomahawks to the Chinese and got the missile in return for their help.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 20 Oct 2014 21:22

rsingh wrote:Who gave bakistani cruise missile? They do not make even sounding rockets.....even Dipavli pathkas.

Story from PSen (read at your own risk): http://trishulgroup.blogspot.in/2008/12 ... ailed.html