Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[Austin]

^^^

Probably a more cost-effective solution would be gun-based air defense like Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar (C-RAM).






Probably would be able to take out air-launched PGMs as well.

Since OFB makes the AK-630M in India why cant they just modify it and integrate with a Flycatcher or an AESA radar with EO and build our own Desi "C Ya -RAM" , infact they have done something similar on Naval ships and integrated with Israel radar for CIWS

[Singha]

i was ranting about this a while back. another fail for our mil planners. there needs to be a cheaper last tier defence behind the expensive spyder. we cannot be lobbing expensive python5 and derby rounds at cheap Nasr , paveway and A100 mlrs projectiles surely?
and whats the plan when they quad rack 4 x 250lb sdb style weapons and each a.c starts lobbing 12 of them, some with wing kits? fire 12 python5s?

[uddu]

The Iron dome is capable of taking out 90 percent of targets. Its said to be expensive. If we can make something on our own which works and is cheaper will be nice option to field atleast along border to protect the civilian population on the western border and to protect the troops along the eastern border.

[kit]

India certainly needs both manned and unmanned point defence systems as well as EMP weapons as last resort against massed attacks by both guided and unguided weapons . A shore based phalanx like weapon and a CIWS plus automated defence for facilities are sorely needed. Even turkey is fielding laser based CIWS for its warships.

[brar_w]

Lockheed's MHTK has a price per round target of $16,000 per round or there about and is specifically designed for such a purpose. If one were to guess, one would assume that it would be an interim step towards a full Directed Energy Capability that would come out of the GBAD effort of the Marines. For longer ranged rockets one would want a slightly longer range than a 30KW SSL, so something that fits into a small vehicle yet can produce 50-100 KW of power will be more desirable..30KW weapons are already possible (The USS Ponce has one) but the ones twice the size will probably take 10-12 years to become operational. The goal is also to have a 150KW system operational before 2030 but that will be on a larger vehicle.

http://www.janes.com/article/53095/lock ... s-for-mhtk

[srai]

^^^

Probably a more cost-effective solution would be gun-based air defense like Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar (C-RAM).

...

...

Probably would be able to take out air-launched PGMs as well.

Since OFB makes the AK-630M in India why cant they just modify it and integrate with a Flycatcher or an AESA radar with EO and build our own Desi "C Ya -RAM" , infact they have done something similar on Naval ships and integrated with Israel radar for CIWS

i was ranting about this a while back. another fail for our mil planners. there needs to be a cheaper last tier defence behind the expensive spyder. we cannot be lobbing expensive python5 and derby rounds at cheap Nasr , paveway and A100 mlrs projectiles surely?
and whats the plan when they quad rack 4 x 250lb sdb style weapons and each a.c starts lobbing 12 of them, some with wing kits? fire 12 python5s?

Yes, local solution exists and could be developed into a land-based C-RAM type system. But the IA/IAF eyes are set on Rheinmetall Skyshield!

[SaiK]

http://sps-aviation.com/experts-speak/? ... on-arrives

can an augmented extended helina project be done with brimstone-2 specs?

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> Yes, local solution exists and could be developed into a land-based C-RAM type system. But the IA/IAF eyes are set on Rheinmetall Skyshield!<SNIP>

For what purpose is the Sky-shield being sought by the IA? And I don't think IAF is asking for it.

[dinesha]

User Trial of Nuke Capable Agni-IV Missile by Aug-end
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 980280.ece

Defence sources said preparation was on in full swing at the Wheeler Island test facility for the scheduled test which is likely to be conducted by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Indian Army on August 30 or 31. This will be second user trial of the weapon system. Earlier, the missile was successfully test-fired from the same test range on December 2 last year.

[Vipul]

Hope it is soon deployed in canister based configuration.
Any chaiwala tidbits if a Indian Navy ship is sailing in Indian Ocean towards Madagascar for recording/noting the splashdown of a Agni V?

[srai]

<SNIP> Yes, local solution exists and could be developed into a land-based C-RAM type system. But the IA/IAF eyes are set on Rheinmetall Skyshield!<SNIP>

For what purpose is the Sky-shield being sought by the IA? And I don't think IAF is asking for it.

Doesn't the IA assign some of its AD guns for the protection of airbases?

The IA has a RFI out there for 30mm AD guns for a while now. AFAIR, I think they had selected Rheinmetall but has stalled due to corruption allegations.

Modernisation of Army Air Defence

...
Not many gun systems are currently available but a possible choice was Skyshield of Rheinmetall AD but unfortunately the company has been blacklisted by India thus there is no hope even in the distant future for a successor system. Even if a gun is shortlisted, it may take at least five years for the delivery to start. Notionally if 10 regiments have to be provided with the new guns then at the rate of one regiment per year, it will take 10 years to equip all the 10 regiments provided there is no spillover. Thus if new guns are inducted by 2030 the current guns, which are already obsolete, will have to provide AD till then which is impractical.
...

[member_24684]

<SNIP> Yes, local solution exists and could be developed into a land-based C-RAM type system. But the IA/IAF eyes are set on Rheinmetall Skyshield!<SNIP>

For what purpose is the Sky-shield being sought by the IA? And I don't think IAF is asking for it.

The Indian Army is planning to procure towed Air Defense (AD) Guns and ammunition along with Maintenance Transfer of Technology (MToT). The project involves manufacture of 1,102 AD guns over the next 15 years to replace the 1950s vintage L-70 acquired from Swedish firm Bofors and the Zu-23mm acquired from USSR's Podolsky Electromechanical plant.

In the first stage, the manufacturer will have to supply the army with 428 guns over the next five years. Several lakh rounds of ammunition would need to be manufactured in India.

From Thakur Blog

Earlier some ET reports mentioned German NBS Mantis is a strong competitor

[Singha]

the americans have already proven the phalanx system on a truck works as in the pic above.
the AK630 fires a heavier shell 30mm vs 20mm on phalanx and has equal(6) barrels.
we license make and service it for a long time now, its std kit on every navy ship barring the talwars.
the system to network them with barak radar+EO surely exists on our ships.

but no we cannot use that. we need stealth turrets and single barrel 35mm guns.

[Thakur_B]

ARDE has floated a tender for fabrication of 25 Nos NGARM.

On the electromagnetic gun front, the list of components they are floating tender for further indicates that they are possibly working on a rail gun and coil gun hybrid.

OTOH, DRDL is tendering for some wings that do not seem like they belong on Nirbhay.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12343

ARDE has also floated tender for 200 Nos of aluminium warheads casings for Astra with tantalum cuboids.

[Indranil]

OTOH, DRDL is tendering for some wings that do not seem like they belong on Nirbhay.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12343

I saw this tender and could not figure out which missile it is aimed for. Obviously, it is for a canisterized missile. I thought it is for Helina, but I have my doubts.

[Karan M]

>>ARDE has also floated tender for 200 Nos of aluminium warheads casings for Astra with tantalum cuboids.

Excellent.Only some 10-20 missiles would be used for trials. So this is really a first production batch even before all trials are ostensibly complete.

[ramana]

After copper, tantalum is the most malleable metal. its used in high efficiency shaped charges.

So what cuboids are these? I would have expected tungsten pellets /cubesfor max penetration and damage potential.

[Thakur_B]

OTOH, DRDL is tendering for some wings that do not seem like they belong on Nirbhay.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=12343

I saw this tender and could not figure out which missile it is aimed for. Obviously, it is for a canisterized missile. I thought it is for Helina, but I have my doubts.

I suppose it is for NGARM like the X-58 for Pak Fa. Remember this mystery missile undergoing RCS testing a couple of years back at NAL ?

[Thakur_B]

After copper, tantalum is the most malleable metal. its used in high efficiency shaped charges.

So what cuboids are these? I would have expected tungsten pellets /cubesfor max penetration and damage potential.

Tantalum while being ductile, is also extremely hard. From another tender, it appears the cuboids are about 6.5 mm in size. The overall functioning might be similar to what is described in this patent.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120167796

[Karan M]

Missile RCS testing would especially make sense for an ARM beyond the utility of understanding how they contribute to aircraft RCS.

[Singha]

but how expensive is it? will the metals be imported?
we should substitute if possible with local and cheap metals to drive costs down and build volume.

for instance while titanium might be better than HY100 steel for subs, lighter, harder, more resistant to chlorine and salt corrosion.... even the russians built a couple of subs and gave up due to cost..despite having local titanium mines.

[Indranil]

I saw this tender and could not figure out which missile it is aimed for. Obviously, it is for a canisterized missile. I thought it is for Helina, but I have my doubts.

I suppose it is for NGARM like the X-58 for Pak Fa. Remember this mystery missile undergoing RCS testing a couple of years back at NAL ?

I don't know what missile it is, but the tender says that it comes out of a canister. Also looking at the diagrams more closely, I realized that the diameter of the missile is 230 mm and the wingspan is about 650mm. I think it is a desi SRSAM/MRSAM in the making. Question is whether the ramjet missile development at DRDL and this tied to each other.

[sankum]

LRSAM trials begin; induction in sight, says Admiral Dhowan

[Singha]

the Vikky will go into 4 month refit next year...pipapav is bidding for that contract.

^^ The Indian Navy is aiming to commission the new destroyer INS Kochi with an operational LRSAM by the end of September. Missile Launchers and the MF-Star radars have already been installed on INS Kolkata and its follow-on ship Kochi.

[rohitvats]

Doesn't the IA assign some of its AD guns for the protection of airbases?

The IA has a RFI out there for 30mm AD guns for a while now. AFAIR, I think they had selected Rheinmetall but has stalled due to corruption allegations. <SNIP>

So, when you know that Skyshield has been sought for re-equipment of AD Regiments presently equipped with L-70 guns, whats with chest-beating about IA not opting for 'local' solution? And that too based on AK630? Ever wondered what is the primary objective of these AD Regiments? And if AK630 will serve that purpose?

BTW - the Germans seem to have an advanced version of this Skyshield system which handles threats from CRAM as well as stand-off ammunition.

[Austin]

Russian-Indian Hypersonic Cruise Missile Could Revolutionize Arms Industry

ZHUKOVSKY (Sputnik) — A prototype BrahMos-II hypersonic cruise missile, currently under joint development by Russia and India, may be created in six to seven years, head of Russian-Indian BrahMos Aerospace enterprise Sudhir Mishra said Tuesday.

"Research work on this project is underway in India at the Indian Institute of Science and in Russia at the Moscow Aviation Institute. This new missile is envisaged as a revolutionary new weapon," Mishra told RIA Novosti. "The exact configuration of the system has yet to be defined, the creation of a prototype hypersonic BrahMos missile can take six-seven years."

[RKumar]

^ If remember around 2 years back ... it was mentioned it will take 5 years to develop.

Now after 2 years ... it might take 6-7 years. So we have already lost 4 years

[Austin]

^ If remember around 2 years back ... it was mentioned it will take 5 years to develop.

Now after 2 years ... it might take 6-7 years. So we have already lost 4 years

The hypersonic path has been mentioned by Dr Sudhir posted in previous page , one is to use existing Ramjet to get Mach 5+ and other is to use Scram to get to Mach 7+ , The Scram part will certainly take more time , I would say 8-10 years may be some where in 2025

[srai]

Looks like all together the IAF will induct 65 Akash firing units (i.e. batteries): 30 Akash Mk.1 firing units (or 15 squadrons [2+6+7]) and 35 Akash Mk.2 firing units (or 17.5 squadrons [remaining out of planned 4 + 12 + 49 units]). Total will be 32.5 Akash SAM squadrons!

At 125 missiles per squadron, the total for 32.5 squadrons come out to be 4060 Akash missiles.

Each squadron with two firing units and auxiliary costs around Rs. 600 crore (or about USD 110 million). So the total value for 32.5 Akash squadrons will be approximately 19500 crore (or about USD 3.5 billion). Pretty good value for money.


MI2Watch: Akash to be BEL’s star at show; more IAF orders likely

Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M

Bengaluru, Feb 16: Home-grown Akash Missile System (AMS) is all set to storm this year's Aero India with Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) projecting it as the lead product in India's indigenous march, since Independence.

BEL is showcasing AMS as the perfect case study to refer to while sharing the advantages of a Make in India concept in aerospace and defence. AMS is the first indigenously-built missile defence system in India.

Military sources confirm to OneIndia that the Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to place additional procurement orders on BEL (49 firing units) in a phased manner. The IAF might immediately procure seven squadrons of AMS (consisting of 14 firing units.) The configuration of the seven new squadrons is likely to be similar to those being deployed currently.


Already commissioned in IAF arsenal

During an exclusive interview to OneIndia, Nataraj Krishnappa, General Manager (Missile Systems), BEL, said that the first order for AMS (worth about Rs 1200 crore, two squadrons) was placed by IAF in 2008. These squadrons have already been supplied, installed and commissioned.

"A repeat order from the IAF for six more squadrons of AMS (worth around Rs 3500 crore) came in December 2010 and four squadrons of the same have been already manufactured. All six squadrons will be completed ahead of schedule in 2015," says Nataraj, heading one of the most-talented teams in BEL.

The Indian Army has already placed an order on Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), Hyderabad, for two regiments of Akash Weapon System. It was during the UPA regime the decision to split Akash orders were taken with BEL getting IAF orders and BDL, the Army versions. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) had then felt that splitting the orders would encourage competition among DPSUs.

However, BEL is supplying all the radars, control centres, satellite data-links to BDL for integration on Army variants of Akash systems. Further, BEL has developed the software for the entire system apart from having the contract from BDL to complete integration of all the elements and commissioning of the system.

To a specific query on the home-grown content on AMS, Nataraj said that barring few electronic components, every bit has the ‘Made in India' tag. "The design and manufacture is done exclusively within India, barring certain components which are not available here. As you know the electronic components manufacture in India is in its infancy and world over design and production is in the hands of few developed countries. Almost 85 percent of the total cost of inputs is sourced within India," he said.

BEL has received orders worth about Rs 4500 crore from IAF and their share in the Army version is over Rs 3000 crore, out of total work order of about 14000 crore. BEL has projected the estimated business potential from AMS over Rs 15000 crore, in future.


Make in India concept's best example

For the IAF version, BEL is the lead vendor and integrator. The surveillance radar, tracking radar, flight control centre, support systems and the integrated software for AMS are manufactured by BEL. Akash missiles are supplied by BDL, while the launchers for missiles are being supplied by Tata Power / L&T and the squadron control centre is manufactured by ECIL. Integration of all equipment and software at the squadron level, installation and commissioning of AMS is being done by BEL. The weapon system software developed jointly by LRDE and BEL plays a crucial role in achieving the target destruction.

AMS protects vulnerable points and vulnerable areas with a slant range of 25-30 km at altitudes up to 20 km. It can destroy high-speed targets like fighter aircraft and UAVs. Except the final action of pressing the ‘destroy' button, most of the major functions are done by the computer running on the weapon system software, being jointly developed by BEL and DRDO.


Challenges and lessons for BEL

BEL says that the AMS prototype was built on BMP Tanks and the development took several years. The first order for production came from IAF and the configuration of prototype was unsuitable for the user. Within just three years, BEL had to re-engineer the AMS on to truck/trailer-mounted version. Many systems that became obsolete were changed, before delivering the final product to the IAF. BEL adopted a concurrent engineering and production model with close co-operation of all the DRDO labs and other industry partners. "This was a daunting task but all the objectives were achieved and the first squadron was completed within time," he adds. There are about 100 major vendors (including other units of BEL) spread all over India, who scripted this Make in India success story. "We have huge number of stakeholders to be managed, including DRDO labs, various inspection agencies (MSQAA), Industry partners and the IAF. Communication management and conflict management are two sets of skills we learned from Akash project. It was definitely a new experience for BEL," he says.


Many trials on different modes

BEL says that the system was put in desert conditions and extreme cold conditions (Pokhran flight trials) during the prototype stage. PTAs (Pilotless Target Aircraft) pulling dummy targets were used most of the times for firing trials at Balasore. At times fighter jets (including Sukhois) dropped parachutes fitted with targets, and on few occasions, the PTAs were fired at directly. "Low flying targets at near distances were successfully destroyed by AMS. High altitude far boundary, multiple targets, mid altitude and mid-range with approaching and receding targets, etc were the other missions which were successfully conducted. The user inputs keep us working on newer ideas as well," he says. After extensive trials, the IAF seems to be a happy customer. The IAF has tested the AMS capability in several simulated war scenarios and the results are said to be satisfactory. BEL says it can add any new features being demanded by the user within a short time.


DRDO's role and some names to remember

Team BEL gives the credit of AMS to former DRDO Chief Controller Dr Prahlada and Project Director (PD) Akash, late Dr R R Panyam from DRDL. "The project is currently steered by G Chandramouli, Scientist ‘H'& OS, the current PD Akash and his team. The other senior scientists who have played pivotal roles with significant contribution in making the project successful are G N Rao, Scientist ‘G', DRDL, M Vijayakumar, Scientist ‘G', Dr R V Narayana, Scientist ‘H', both from LRDE, V V Parlikar, Scientist ‘G' from R&DE (E)," says Nataraj. BEL says the AMS teams are scattered all over India, with a project management team of around 10 officers located at BEL Bengaluru. "We had functional teams of 75 members, including D&E, materials management, assembly, software and testing working exclusively for the project here," he says.


Role of private industry

Tata Power is one of the major partners in the programme, who are supplying the launchers, with work share arrangement between them and L&T. Astra Microwave, Hyderabad, Mak Controls, Coimbatore, Tata Motors and Icomm, Hyderabad, are few other major vendors. There are scores of other smaller private industries contributing to the programme. MSME vendors have a significant share in the AMS project. "It's is a huge plus for us. It augurs well for all future projects we undertake," says Nataraj.


Different Akash versions

The Air Force version is built around trailers hauled by prime movers and the Army version uses BEML-Tatra vehicles for higher mobility in all terrains. "This necessitated re-engineering. However, basically the concepts are the same. Certain modifications in electronics have been made as desirable improvements," he says. Akash The first regiment of Army is nearing completion and the second one would be completed ahead of schedule by mid 2016. At the show, BEL is exhibiting the Army version of AMS.


About AMS

Akash Missile System was developed as part of the IGMDP (Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme); initiated by DRDO under Dr A P J Abdul Kalam's command. Various labs under DRDO and few Industry partners like BEL, BDL and Ordnance Factories were roped in for the programme. DRDO labs including DRDL, LRDE, RCI, and R&DE (E) have worked in tandem with the Industry partners. Akash The successful trials of prototype AMS was done in 2007. Agni and Prithvi are other successful star performers from the IGMDP block.

Short summary (IAF): 32.5 Akash SAM squadrons for USD 3.5 billion

[Austin]

BrahMos pushing hypersonic ramjet technology as scramjet stopgap

[Cain Marko]

Pretty large akash order by iaf, how comes they are not after imported maal?

[Austin]

Pretty large akash order by iaf, how comes they are not after imported maal?

CM I like your post but this was a very stupid comment to make.

Lets say if IAF importes xyz system then some one would say On Jeez IAF , Ah Imported Air Force............

[rohitvats]

Pretty large akash order by iaf, how comes they are not after imported maal?

I know! What utter blasphemy...Import Air Force putting down billion of dollars on a domestic product

There goes an opportunity for uber-patriots to cuss the IAF for lack of vision, mission, emission, global warming and what have you...Thank god the Rafale thread is there. And I remember, IAF has yet not ordered more than 40. I can always rant against that.

OK. Time for my scheduled protest against senior leadership of IAF, or lack thereof...and while I'm at it, let me also see if I can get few of them good-for-nothing fighter jocks court-martialled for not meeting my exalted standards of logical thinking.

[Karan M]

The order is large only by the standards that for the IAF its a first in that they actually purchased the Akash system in a decent quantity. The IAF has 30 Pechora Sq. So far only 8 Akash squadrons were added, and the 2nd order for 6 sq was added after SP Tyagi had literally stopped the Akash program in its tracks with a 2 squadron order.
While 9 squadrons of MRSAM are on notional order, reports noted the MRSAM program was progressed after Tyagi held the Akash order up.

So far, a second batch of Akash is not yet ordered and Akash Mk2 orders have been hinted at and not confirmed. The above comment by BEL that a total market of x amount exists needs to be taken with some salt. They have made similar claims for many other programs but all is dependent on our services actually ordering something in large quantities to begin with, as versus penny piecemeal orders.

[Karan M]

Also we have reports of 200 Astra's on order based on tenders and what not. Instructive to note that IAF ordered over 1,100 R77s w/similar performance which turned out to be duds. If Astra Mk1s are not ordered in similar quantity whereas some Derby variant is then standardized on, things will remain the way they are.

[srai]

We can't remove the "imported" tag as yet The total Akash deal is only talk. No firm orders/intent yet beyond the 2 plus 6 sqdn. A step in the right direction but a more concerted policy towards indigenization (walk the talk so to speak) needs to occur before we can label them "Indigenous" Air Force!

[Indranil]

^^^
Srai, you are respected poster, one of the few left whose posts I read with pleasure. But please desist from calling our defense forces names. Criticism and calling names are not the same thing. Valid criticism is welcomed, name-calling not! And this applies to everybody else. It will be very easy for me to warn you if you guys continue with name calling.

Our forces or RnD folks are not above criticism. Criticize with as hard hitting facts (not opinions) as possible. The stronger the points, the better. For example, look at the CAG report on Arjun/LCA. Since they are facts, not opinions, nobody can refute them: DRDO/ADA/DoD/Armed forces/HAL. Nobody!

[member_23370]

Agni 4 missile should be tested in a few days. All the best to SFC. Hoping for A-5 and K-4 test before the end of this year.

[srai]

Apologies Indranil. No offense intended. Easy to get carried away

[srai]

For cost comparison, Indo-French JV SRSAM (aka Maitri) was a $6 billion project. Not clear on how many systems would have been included in that though (IA/IAF/IN) other than the cost of R&D. We can estimate the totals by looking at the planned Akash orders (65 firing units) since that is fulfilling the SRSAM requirements now. So more or less, the cost of foreign, in this case a JV of some sort, would be at least double (probably more) compared to an indigenous solution. Akash Mk.2, with seeker, will cost more than Mk.1 though. We will need to revisit in a few years time when costs become clearer.

France hopeful of $6 bn Maitri missile project

Paris/New Delhi, Dec 28, 2014:

With the India-France $6 billion surface-to-air missile systems project in doldrums, France is hoping that new government’s push for “Make in India” will lead to inking of the long delayed deal.

France remains hopeful of signing the deal even though Indian armed forces are sceptical about the missile since indigenously developed Akash is in play.

Titled Maitri, the project for joint development and production between India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and France’s MBDA, was initiated in 2007 and a MoU to co-develop the surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) was signed during French President Francois Hollande’s visit to India in February last year.

Since then, the situation has changed as Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.

Asked about reservations by the Air Force, a top MBDA official in Paris told PTI, “we have written back answering the issues raised by the IAF. We are hopeful that this deal would be inked soon.”

The official at MBDA also said that the “Make in India” project is apt for the deal.

He added that while the range of SRSAM will be of 40 km, Akash’s range is only 25 km.

Sources at Indian Air Force said that they have nothing against the Maitri project per se but would prefer to use the available Akash missile rather than wait for the India-French ones to come.

“The Maitri project can go on but we want the missiles and Akash is serving that purpose,” sources said.

Refusing to comment about the Maitri project, sources in DRDO said that the Akash missile is already in play and is based on a similar platform like the Maitri.

However, the French are pushing for Maitri.

“SRSAM is part of our strategic dialogue with India and is raised whenever top officials and leaders from both sides meet. We believe that a lot of information has been handed over after the new government has taken over in Delhi,” an MBDA official said.