Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

[somnath]

^^^Dhiren has been a good friend in the years gone by , so wise men think alike!

But his solution, of paying DB pensions till 60, keep contributing to an NPS pool, and then move to DC after 60 - well, this too will wreck the budget. There are 2 elements to de-risking of pension payments:

1. Transfer the acturial risk (the longevity of the payout) to people that can quantify the risk, ie, insurance companies rather than governments.
2. Cap the open-ended nature of liabilities inherent in the DB structure.

Cut it whichever way, moving to a DC model of sorts is the only way out, that is fiscally sustainable.

It would take enormous political courage for the govt to admit that they made a mistake (by committing to open ended OROP), it isnt sustainable, and suggest a radical way forward. Maybe grant OROP for personnel already in service, while drawing a drop-dead date from which all new recruits come in to a DC plan.

The govt needs to enlist the services of credible ex-servicemen to articulate the issues and way forward.

Somehow, I dont think any govt, Modi included has the courage. But would be happy to be proven wrong.

[chaanakya]

After killing a jawan, these Meerut guys use tricolor as mat for drinks in roadside party

That article headline is incorrect. The article clearly states that the lynching of the army man, and the incident with the flag being used as a drinking mat were separate incidents.

A mob beat up an army jawan named Ved Mitra to death as he protested against them when he saw the youths indulging in eve-teasing a woman. Now, another incident that took place in Meerut will make you bury your head in the sand.

Yes , you are right. But those criminals , who beat up an Armyman to death, were having Hindu names. Some of them arrested and others absconding.
In defaming tricolour , the people involved were also having similar backgrounds.

That is why I said they were criminals. Their acts shame us just as those who have different names.

[Sid]

This is Meerut we are talking about, its worst of the worst place when it comes to crime rate and law & order.

Its not surprise that criminals are still absconding.

[K Mehta]

I think OROP might be the nudge needed to start making the army leaner and also hopefully mechanization.

[Philip]

The latest F mag issue has good features on the IA's assault rifle search,incl. a piece by the former DGMO ,an infantry warfare specialist. The problem with INSAS seems to be jamming,esp. in a crisis,experience against the Maoists,etc. IA very unhappy with it.3 firang firms/wares tested,the Israeli Galil the best of the lot. Decision awaited,the DRDO has come out with "Excalibur",an improved version of INSAS,but the IA doesn't want it. Will try and post details if poss. later on.

[gashish]

Balanced article from a bureaucrat on difficulties implementing OROP

The bitter truth about OROP
http://hillpost.in/2015/08/the-bitter-t ... op/104013/

This exception is the “causus belli” or the root of the problem. Many years ago the IAS contrived a sleight of hand (at which we are past masters) to ensure that the highest echelons of the elite civil services, at least, get the benefit of OROP ! This is how it was managed: the highest pay scale in government (currently) is Rs. 80000/ fixed. (only the Chiefs of the three defence forces and the Cabinet Secretary are in the fixed scale of Rs. 90000/). It was decreed that all who retire in this scale (known loftily as the Apex Scale) would get OROP – that is, their pensions would always be linked to whatever revised Apex Scale the subsequent Pay Commissions decided. Since every single IAS (or IFS) officer retires in the Apex Scale this forever ensured OROP for themselves. To reduce any opposition to the stratagem, some Apex Scale posts were also made available to other All India services.

The top brass in the armed forces were also party to this decision, for they also got a share of the pie. Take the Army. The Apex Scale has also been provided to the VCOAS, Army Commanders, Lt. General (NFSG) and one third of the total strength of Lt. Generals in the force. The same applies to their counterparts in the other two forces. This may perhaps explain why we have not heard the top echelons of the forces coming out in public support of the demand for universal OROP.

The acceptance of the OROP demand is also not practically or legally possible, because it cannot be limited to the armed forces only, and any extension to other services and departments will bankrupt the government for all times. The stirrings have already started – the Central Para Military Forces, the Railway unions, some Associations of central government Ministries – have already given ominous hints that if OROP is allowed to the armed forces it cannot be denied to them. So we’re no longer talking of just 22 lakh ex-servicemen and 6 lakh widows – we’re talking of tens of millions of central and state government employees. We’re no longer looking at a financial implication of Rs. 8000 crores but ten or twenty times that. Its a no brainer.

And yet there are some aspects of the demand of the armed forces that are legitimate, that are peculiar to them, and which any sensitive government has to consider sympathetically. The primary one for me is their early retirement (especially for the jawans and ORs) and subsequent unemployment with relatively low pension rates. The solution to this vexed imbroglio has to come out of the box and not from any manual of the finance department. Although it is certainly presumptuous of me I would make so bold as to suggest the following steps as an alternative to OROP:

* Eradicate the root and genesis of the problem — abolish the OROP benefit provided only to the holders of the Apex Scale and cover them under the same formula of pension as applicable to others. This may occasion some resistance from about twenty thousand or so of our plastic frame and a few defence brass but it would remove the heart burning of many millions of others and restore equity.
* Provide higher pay scales to members of the armed forces to compensate them for their shorter service tenures and lack of promotion avenues. In order to do this the bureaucracy should once and for all give up the specious notion of maintaining “equations”- there are no equations between apples and oranges.
* Increase the gratuity available to ORs and jawans.
* Provide 50% reservation for jawans and other ORs in all central para-military and state police forces at appropriate levels. Not only would this single measure provide gainful employment to them for another 25 years, it would also considerably enhance the image and effectiveness of these forces because of the sterling qualities of discipline and integrity which these ORs would bring with them. I calculate that there would be about 30,000 (300000) retirees from the army every year – the annual vacancies in the para-military and police forces would be many times this number, so adjusting the former should pose no problem. Ex-servicemen Directorates already exist at the Centre and in the states and they can maintain the data of retirees and forward the names against requisitions.

OROP is a mirage which will never materialise. If the lot of our ex-servicemen is to be improved and their obvious career disadvantages compensated, suggestions like the above have to be considered. Mr. Modi should learn a thing or two from the armed forces – instead of a head-on confrontation with them he should execute a flanking manoeuvre.

Government would have to come out with some out-of-the-box solution to this problem; if anybody govt is "equipped" to do it, it is probably the current govt.

[somnath]

I think OROP might be the nudge needed to start making the army leaner and also hopefully mechanization.

It wont. OROP is a 30 years old conversation. If the Army was really serious about both OROP and force rationalisation, something would have come out already.

This will have to be a political call.

I must say that (ex) service chiefs have not shown leadership in this particular instance. Maybe because there is an inherent conflict of interest (in the sense that all Chiefs are already covered under OROP of a type!). One doesnt rise to become a chief only because one was a brave subaltern, or a dashing battalion commander. Chiefs have to have a multi faceted appreciation of issues. A recent Chairman, Joint Chiefs told a US Senate committee hearing that his greatest concern are the twin deficits (this was in George W's time)!

The ex-servicemen have conflated two different issues - the problem of early retirement to that of OROP. The latter isnt a principle of pension benefits in any organisation in the world. The problem of early retirement needs to be made good by may be a higher amount of pension (say 60% of last drawn as compared to 50%), rather than OROP. Or a higher gratuity. Or indeed, better still, a higher contribution from govt in a Defined Contribution pension plan.

[sudeepj]

Since 2004, Central govt. officers including IAS have a defined contribution pension plan, not a defined benefits plan. The kind of emotional blackmailing being used to demand a payout is unhealthy. There is no price that can be put on the kind of service provided by soldiers, sailors and airmen. Insisting that XYZ is the only way that an ungrateful nation can thank the services is an atrocious demand. Demanding payment (and condemning all who think it may be unwise as 'ingrates', corrupt etc. and therefore deserving of some punishment) is what separates a praetorian army from the one that the nation knows. Hoping wiser heads will prevail.

[anjan]

Since 2004, Central govt. officers including IAS have a defined contribution pension plan, not a defined benefits plan. The kind of emotional blackmailing being used to demand a payout is unhealthy. There is no price that can be put on the kind of service provided by soldiers, sailors and airmen. Insisting that XYZ is the only way that an ungrateful nation can thank the services is an atrocious demand. Demanding payment (and condemning all who think it may be unwise as 'ingrates', corrupt etc. and therefore deserving of some punishment) is what separates a praetorian army from the one that the nation knows. Hoping wiser heads will prevail.

So what's your answer? People should keep risking life and limb and stay happy? Not ask for compensation? I'm curious if you'd work under those conditions? People respect the armed forces in any country because they put their lives on the line, put up with crappy conditions, to defend other people's lives. By your scheme of things only people who do muffat ka kaam deserve respect. The forces are asking for parity with the civil services. Things like NFU which mean that in a service like the MES, you have the civilian Maj eq making as much as a Major Gen. That is what grates and that's what makes us ingrates.

[Rahul M]

>> you have the civilian Maj eq making as much as a Major Gen

legally ? I dont see how. with MSP a forces officer would easily earn more than his civvie equivalent in rank, much less a subordinate.

[sudeepj]

Since 2004, Central govt. officers including IAS have a defined contribution pension plan, not a defined benefits plan. The kind of emotional blackmailing being used to demand a payout is unhealthy. There is no price that can be put on the kind of service provided by soldiers, sailors and airmen. Insisting that XYZ is the only way that an ungrateful nation can thank the services is an atrocious demand. Demanding payment (and condemning all who think it may be unwise as 'ingrates', corrupt etc. and therefore deserving of some punishment) is what separates a praetorian army from the one that the nation knows. Hoping wiser heads will prevail.

So what's your answer? People should keep risking life and limb and stay happy? Not ask for compensation? I'm curious if you'd work under those conditions? People respect the armed forces in any country because they put their lives on the line, put up with crappy conditions, to defend other people's lives. By your scheme of things only people who do muffat ka kaam deserve respect. The forces are asking for parity with the civil services. Things like NFU which mean that in a service like the MES, you have the civilian Maj eq making as much as a Major Gen. That is what grates and that's what makes us ingrates.

Its one thing to ask for parity based on logic and argumentation. As soon as you descend into arguments such as "muffat ka kaam", and that all civilian officers are "conspiring" to deny OROP, you display a praetorian guard attitude.

The forces are asking for parity with the civil services.

How many colonels are there in our Army? Which rank should that be equal to in pay-grade in civil services? How many of those civil servants are employed by the govt.? If a govt. that is as ideologically inclined towards lionization of fauj as this NDA govt. is finding it difficult to implement OROP, then perhaps there are some valid arguments against the benefit as imagined by the beneficiaries. But no, in the minds of at least some of the people demanding it, everyone who does not think its a terribly smart decision 'must be XYZ' because fauji sacrifice. Dont put a price tag on that sacrifice.. As soon as you demand it, you set a price on something that is priceless. Last post from me on this topic.

[somnath]

^^^I think the situation has been muddied further by conflating OROP with digressions like "parity with IAS", precedence etc.

So what's your answer? People should keep risking life and limb and stay happy? Not ask for compensation? I'm curious if you'd work under those conditions? People respect the armed forces in any country because they put their lives on the line, put up with crappy conditions, to defend other people's lives. By your scheme of things only people who do muffat ka kaam deserve respect. The forces are asking for parity with the civil services. Things like NFU which mean that in a service like the MES, you have the civilian Maj eq making as much as a Major Gen. That is what grates and that's what makes us ingrates.

Anjan, the way forward would be to monetise the entire benefits package (housing, vehicles, et al) - and create benchmarks. As jawans retire early, give a higher severance pay (which becomes a source of annuity income for him).

There are modern ways of tackling the issue, unfortunately OROP picks up the worst of every single world and is being sought to be implemented.

BTW, rank for rank, the take-home cash for most military officers is higher than their civvie counterparts.

[anjan]

>> you have the civilian Maj eq making as much as a Major Gen

legally ? I dont see how. with MSP a forces officer would easily earn more than his civvie equivalent in rank, much less a subordinate.

NFU means that any given grp A/IAS/IPS officer receives the pay of the highest grade officer of his batch (delayed by 2 years at most). What this means is that even officers who don't get promoted still get paid at that level. That's how the disparity crops up. Your average JS(Maj Gen eq.) is made at 18 years of service. So at 20 years of service everyone draws the pay of a JS. An average Maj Gen has 32 years of service. So by the time our hypothetical Maj Gen. made Col. his civilian counterpart was already drawing a Maj Gen.'s pay. I think MSP is something like Rs. 6000 across most officer ranks and 2000 for PBOR. Which works to maybe a fourth or a fifth of the actual pay disparity between a Lt. Col. and a Maj Gen.

Just to be clear his civilian counterpart would have drawn something just shy of 30000 pm more than him at the start of his 20th year of service. I'm not accounting for how different their pays have already looked to reach this point of divergence. Our officer being one of the roughly 200 out of 45000 strong officer corps destined to make Maj. Gen. will at this point atleast start to narrow that difference. However even he shall still not achieve it for the next 12 years at least. The other 44800 poor ******** are just SOL because they'll never reach the pay levels that all IAS/IPS/grade A will make with a certainty by 20 years of service.

Edit: That's actually a bad calculation. There's something like 67 Lt. Gen. and 1 Gen who get paid above a Maj Gen. A better statement is that of the ~5300 officer Col and above, only 268 are actually at/above parity(at current time because remember they still drew lesser pay in the preceding years) with civil service counterparts with the same length of service.

Edit Again: Actually the pay disparity would start even earlier and affect a much larger number closer to my first number. Effectively the first time the brightest bulb makes it past the first rank + 2 years is when it'll start.

[anjan]

Its one thing to ask for parity based on logic and argumentation. As soon as you descend into arguments such as "muffat ka kaam", and that all civilian officers are "conspiring" to deny OROP, you display a praetorian guard attitude.

First of all I'm not even sure that's a correct usage for praetorian. The Praetorian guards controlled the levers of powers by deposing and installing emperors who served their own interests. I don't see anyone planning a coup, do you? As it is the ones protesting peacefully are getting their medals ripped off and being manhandled. Your analogy is wildly off base.

You say "Demanding payment is what separates a praetorian army from the one that the nation knows". That's almost the definition of asking for "muffat ka kaam". Arrey bhai Kaam karo par payment mat maango.

How many colonels are there in our Army? Which rank should that be equal to in pay-grade in civil services? How many of those civil servants are employed by the govt.? If a govt. that is as ideologically inclined towards lionization of fauj as this NDA govt. is finding it difficult to implement OROP, then perhaps there are some valid arguments against the benefit as imagined by the beneficiaries. But no, in the minds of at least some of the people demanding it, everyone who does not think its a terribly smart decision 'must be XYZ' because fauji sacrifice. Dont put a price tag on that sacrifice.. As soon as you demand it, you set a price on something that is priceless. Last post from me on this topic.

There is I think an authorized strength of 4200 offrs of Col. rank. Why don't you tell me what the authorised strength of eq. (DS ?) offrs is in the IAS/IPS and Grade A services combined. All of whom draw a Maj Gen.'s pay.

The only "must be XYZ" is a must be too lazy to read the hundreds of thousands of articles over the last 3 decades explaining exactly what I'm explaining with far greater clarity. The must be too bored to see why 2 parliamentary committees and the SC held that the armed forces should be/are entitled to OROP. A SC decision incidentally of which the Union Govt. is in contempt.

I'm throughly stumped that you think "No price tag on sacrifice" is a reasonable answer to not paying people money. I suppose you also skip on flowers for your wife and toys for your kids because there is "no price on love" and don't ask for pay raises because "who can put a price on job satisfaction". Either you're in HR or the IAS.

[shaun]

1st part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t5M10gBVCc

[shaun]

Admin please delete the 2nd link , it is part of the 1st part itself.

[Austin]

Inauguration of Jaisalmer War Museum and Laungewala War Memorial

Check the picture in the pdf http://pibphoto.nic.in/documents/rlink/ ... 582401.pdf

‘Jaisalmer War Museum’ has been established in the Military Station of Jaisalmer to commemorate the sacrifice of war heroes. The museum was inaugurated by Lieutenant General Ashok Singh, General Officer Commanding in Chief, Southern Command, today. A large number of service officers and civil dignitaries graced this historic occasion. The War Museum is located 10 km short of Jaisalmer on the Jaisalmer - Jodhpur Highway. The inauguration of the museum in the Golden Jubilee Commemoration Year of 1965 Indo Pak War is also a tribute to all soldiers who made the supreme sacrifice in the defence of the motherland.

The museum has two large Information Display Halls, an Audio Visual Room and a souvenir shop. There are a large number of captured war trophies and own vintage equipment on display to include tanks, guns and military vehicles. The Indian Air Force has presented a Hunter aircraft for the museum, which was used during the Battle for Laungewala in 1971 Indo Pak War. The entry to the war museum is free for all visitors.

In addition, to commemorate Battle of Laungewala which was fought on 04-05 Dec 1971, a War Memorial has been constructed and inaugurated at the very site where the Pakistani offensive was blunted, with over 179 Pakistani soldiers killed / wounded and 37 Pakistani tanks destroyed.

The murals of the soldiers, whose supreme sacrifice led to victory in the Laungewala battle and the 106 mm Recoilless Gun (main anti tank weapon) employed to destroy a number of Pakistani tanks occupy a place of pride in the memorial. The memorial also has a state of art audio visual theatre for screening the movies on the Battle of Laungewala. Located just two hours away from Jaisalmer, the memorial is open seven days a week and the entry is free for visitors.

[JTull]

1st part
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t5M10gBVCc

What an extraordinary video! And the piano rendition of National Anthem at the end was special. I'll always remember where I come from, where my heart belongs.

[Manish_P]

@Shaun

Lovely video with several breath taking visuals

For me though, it's the small moments which stood out.. the moment at 10:19 where the artillery soldier kicks the ejected casing out of the way making it look so casual (and so SDRE)... the fluidity of motion at 10:34 as the soldier pulls the lanyard on the howitzer

BTW nice of them to not remove the moment at 00:57

[Singha]

best one I have seen yet.

[Kakkaji]

Efforts on to resolve OROP issue, but more time needed: Manohar Parrikar

NEW DELHI: With veterans continuing their protest for OROP, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has said that all efforts are on to resolve the situation but more time may be required. "Now the small gaps are being filled. Give it some time for completion. In principle, the Prime Minister on August 15 has given an approval," the minister told reporters, adding that the PMO is now directly involved in finding a resolution.

[Paul]

First time I saw an upgraded 155mm in action

[arshyam]

Can someone list out the desi weapons systems shown in the video? I didn't see the Arjun (I think the tanks were T-xx(?) only, for example), and were the rocket launchers Pinaka? A web search for Pinaka pics shows they look different from the video, hence my doubt.

[uddu]

INSAS and Dhruv are the two indigenous weapons in that Video. Rocket launcher is the BM-21 Grad which is getting replaced by the Pinaka.

[chetak]

Its one thing to ask for parity based on logic and argumentation. As soon as you descend into arguments such as "muffat ka kaam", and that all civilian officers are "conspiring" to deny OROP, you display a praetorian guard attitude.

First of all I'm not even sure that's a correct usage for praetorian. The Praetorian guards controlled the levers of powers by deposing and installing emperors who served their own interests. I don't see anyone planning a coup, do you? As it is the ones protesting peacefully are getting their medals ripped off and being manhandled. Your analogy is wildly off base.

You say "Demanding payment is what separates a praetorian army from the one that the nation knows". That's almost the definition of asking for "muffat ka kaam". Arrey bhai Kaam karo par payment mat maango.

How many colonels are there in our Army? Which rank should that be equal to in pay-grade in civil services? How many of those civil servants are employed by the govt.? If a govt. that is as ideologically inclined towards lionization of fauj as this NDA govt. is finding it difficult to implement OROP, then perhaps there are some valid arguments against the benefit as imagined by the beneficiaries. But no, in the minds of at least some of the people demanding it, everyone who does not think its a terribly smart decision 'must be XYZ' because fauji sacrifice. Dont put a price tag on that sacrifice.. As soon as you demand it, you set a price on something that is priceless. Last post from me on this topic.

There is I think an authorized strength of 4200 offrs of Col. rank. Why don't you tell me what the authorised strength of eq. (DS ?) offrs is in the IAS/IPS and Grade A services combined. All of whom draw a Maj Gen.'s pay.

The only "must be XYZ" is a must be too lazy to read the hundreds of thousands of articles over the last 3 decades explaining exactly what I'm explaining with far greater clarity. The must be too bored to see why 2 parliamentary committees and the SC held that the armed forces should be/are entitled to OROP. A SC decision incidentally of which the Union Govt. is in contempt.

I'm throughly stumped that you think "No price tag on sacrifice" is a reasonable answer to not paying people money. I suppose you also skip on flowers for your wife and toys for your kids because there is "no price on love" and don't ask for pay raises because "who can put a price on job satisfaction". Either you're in HR or the IAS.

Received by email

Some of the pension figures that have not been revealed widely so far

Some of the data is just coming out. Some of it is yet to be verified and the process is on

UNION BUDGET : PENSIONs

Total Pension Allocation FY 2015-16 - Rs 88000 Cr

Breakdown

Armed Forces 54500 Cr

Armed Forces 33000 Cr
Def Civ .........22500 Cr

All India Services 88000 - 54500 = 33500 Cr (Note – I feel that pension amount of Railways may not be part of this figure – Chander Kamboj )


Categorizing

Those who "Superannuate" - AIS & Def Civ 100%
Armed Force superannuation (Gens n Lt Gens) 0.0014% (93/63200)


Pension Demands

Armed Forces 33000 Cr i.e. 37.5%
AIS + Def Civ 33500 + 22500 = 56000 Cr i.e. 62.5%


Per Capita Pension

Armed Forces 33000 Cr / 25.0 lac = 1,32,000:00 / year
Def Civ 22500 Cr / 4.0 lac = 5.63,000:00 / year
AIS 33500 Cr / ????
AIS + Def Civ 56000 Cr / Strength = Estimated to be over 4-5,00,000 / year (Strength needs to be ascertained)


Ratios of Serving : Pensioners

Armed Forces 1 : 1.7
AIS n Def Civ 0.53 : 1
No one in his right frame of mind should ever question this

SIMPLE
If the Govt has accepted that the Armed Forces have got be "Fighting Fit" and not historical monuments then so be it, else LUMP it
The Govt needs to answer WHY has 50% of retirees NOT been inducted into PMS, IPS, State Police etc
I call this a "Self Created Dilemma"


Notes

The data taken for Def Civ is based upon someones' RTI to PCDA and needs to be ascertained
The strength AIS also needs to be ascertained

[somnath]

SIMPLE
If the Govt has accepted that the Armed Forces have got be "Fighting Fit" and not historical monuments then so be it, else LUMP it
The Govt needs to answer WHY has 50% of retirees NOT been inducted into PMS, IPS, State Police etc
I call this a "Self Created Dilemma"

This has no good end game in sight, simply because politicians have painted themselves into a corner and no one, not even a "strong" PM, has the courage to call the spade a spade.

Whichever way one looks at it, OROP, implemented in the way that is being demanded will wreck the defence budget. The incremental outlay (and this is pre Pay Commission) is expected to be 10-12k crores. Just as a benchmark only, the Rafale deal is stuck because it is supposed to cost 90k crores over 8 years!

Fundamentally, what is being sought to be done is a retrospective change in the terms of an employment contract. At a cost that everyone realises is huge, but no one wants to bell the cat.

This was a chance to ring in comprehensive manpower reforms in the services, but no one's interested.

One, rationalise the size of the forces. This has to go with a comprehensive national security assessment, but make a serious start.
Two, cap the OROP liability to a certain date of joining service. All incremental recruits should be in a defined contribution pension plan, NPS.
Three, reduce the service tenure of soldiers, maybe to 7 or 8 years. Enhance the gratuity/handshake payment so that the guy has enough to build a second life with the experience, and is young enough to do so.
Four, and most importantly, lay out the truth openly. Admit that mistakes were made in rash promises, and how they will be detrimental to natioanl interests in the long run.

[ashish raval]

OROP is not only issue of Armed forces. The moment government accepts OROP in current form all the other parts military forces will be on strike demanding it and very soon every other government departments will ask for similar treatment. Armed forces are fed, maintained and their children's are taken care of well by government based on the risk taken by them as part of job. I don't think OROP like structure exists in any armed forces around the world. Besides the salaries of armed forces is decent now a days and equivalent based on standards around and the world. Joining armed forces is a passion and not seen as a career hence normal risk reward does not apply like sports in India. Government will be in huge debt if other government departments challenges OROP in SC and the court favours employees.

I think instead of heart; forces should be thinking rationally and government should come up with OROP alternative in terms of higher gratuity etc.

[somnath]

Joining armed forces is a passion and not seen as a career hence normal risk reward does not apply like sports in India.

I dont quite agree. Armed forces are a career, as much as anything else. We need to make it attractive to attract the right kind of talent. Question is whether OROP is the way to do it.

[Manish_P]

Perhaps a Defence Cess as part of the Income Tax might help to some extent ?

Education Cess @ 3% of the Total IT + Surcharge amount is expected to net close to 24k thousand crores for 2015-16

A Defence Cess @ 2% netting close to 15-16K crores a year might help in some way

The patriotic Indian citizens (and corporates) for sure would not mind much. There was only a little initial resistance to the education cess.

I, for one, would certainly think of it as a fair and direct contribution on my part for the benefit of our brave soldiers (retired or active).

[ashish raval]

Joining armed forces is a passion and not seen as a career hence normal risk reward does not apply like sports in India.

I dont quite agree. Armed forces are a career, as much as anything else. We need to make it attractive to attract the right kind of talent. Question is whether OROP is the way to do it.

I don't see the reason why a nation should attract the best and brightest to fill up the boots on the ground rather than putting their brains on the projects which can take out thousands of enemy boots with one missile or space based weapons or lasers. All you need is right brains at the top who has access to state of the art and military college and stragetic think tanks and C4ISR which keeps military ahead of everyone else. Firepower does everything else. Hence I don't see armed forces as mere mortal career but something of passion, pride, good benefits to off springs and at the same time service to nation and its people all combined in one place.

[srin]

From TOI: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 703205.cms

The veterans' demand was like this - say, one colonel retired in 2005 and another on August 27, 2015. The moment the latter received his pension - which would naturally be higher than the colonel who had retired 10 years back - the older colonel and all other retired colonels should get the pension received by the last-retired colonel. And if another colonel retired a few months later, pensions of all colonels would have to be readjusted yet again.

I don't understand how the Govt would agree to this. Even if they did, would a future pay commission suggest an big increase in pay to serving personnel, given the huge pension liability ? No - and hence the maximalist position will only affect serving personnel.

Secondly, what if someone takes up another position in private sector after retiring at say 35 ? Would they be eligible for the pension and at what scale ?
By going for the maximum, I'm afraid that the ex-servicemen are painting themselves into a corner they can't easily get out of.

I also think that serving personnel should come first. They should be paid very well for the time they serve. And have NPS with increased Govt contribution. And very high health, accident and life insurance while they serve. And lifelong health insurance for any injury they suffer during service.

[somnath]

Perhaps a Defence Cess as part of the Income Tax might help to some extent ?

Education Cess @ 3% of the Total IT + Surcharge amount is expected to net close to 24k thousand crores for 2015-16

IT revenues expected in FY 2015-16 is 3.24 lac crores, 3% surcharge will yield ~9k crores.

You can give a new tax whatever name - surcharge, increased slab-rates, service tax. But if the govt gets into naming a tax specifically to fund servicemen pension, it will inevitably result in a hugely problematic questions. The education cess passes muster as it is creation of a "public good". What is the logic of funding personal incomes of a special interest group through a targeted tax? You are likely to cause fissures in public-military relations with this.

But in general, of course taxes can be hiked to fund increased OROP pensions. But is that the best way forward? Will we hike taxes again after the new Pay Commission (as OROP obligations would go up exponentially post that)?

I don't understand how the Govt would agree to this. Even if they did, would a future pay commission suggest an big increase in pay to serving personnel, given the huge pension liability ? No - and hence the maximalist position will only affect serving personnel.

Which is why the ex servicemen are now asking for a rolling increase every month of all pension levels.Besides being unaffordable, is it even logistically possible?

Lastly, this whole business looks increasingly theoretical - which union wage negotiation (and that is exactly what this looks like) in the world ended up with a one sided final agreement?

[ashish raval]

Plus how would you fund paramilitary, reserves, police, civil services claiming similar benefits. I held they would take government to court and it would certainly a mess. I think they should need to have out of box solutions as I don't see why someone retired in 1990 should get same pensions as 2005. Economics does not work like that.

[Manish_P]

@Somnath

You can give a new tax whatever name - surcharge, increased slab-rates, service tax. But if the govt gets into naming a tax specifically to fund servicemen pension, it will inevitably result in a hugely problematic questions. The education cess passes muster as it is creation of a "public good". What is the logic of funding personal incomes of a special interest group through a targeted tax?

No. I had not specifically asked for it to be named for the pension... but Defence as a whole... which even if it may not classify as a 'Public good' is at the very least a 'Public welfare'

But you are technically right in so far as a cess is usually towards meeting a specified expenditure...

In this case it could be towards the pensions till the time that other arrangements can be made

PS: You have specified your location as Mumbai. Perhaps you might know about the surcharge of around 15 ps charged on every BEST bus ticket charged from the year 1971 till date

[chetak]

Agitating Veterans Debunk OROP Revision Media Propaganda by Babudom

Monday, August 31, 2015
Agitating Veterans Debunk OROP Revision Media Propaganda by Babudom
Rebuttal by Media Adviser, UFESM to Times of India and Times Now
Courtesy: - Cdr Ravindra Waman Pathak I.N. (Retd)
Member Governing Body and Pension Cell
Indian Ex Servicemen Movement
Apropos Times of India “Times view” published in your edition of 29th August.

As media adviser of UFESM, I wish to rebut your views and put the record straight of what is the essence of OROP and not as postulated by you. In this connection your attention is invited to the one point of contention between the government and ESM organisations. This relates to a wrongly quoted and much misunderstood terminology of a 3% increase in pension for all pensioners year on year in perpetuity.
In essence, it is not a 3% increase but is a periodic review of pension to bring them at par with past pensioners. This has been narrowed down to the figure of 3% keeping in view the 30% increase in salaries of serving government servants between two pay commissions. When related to pensions it is reduced to 1.5% being 50% of any pay slab. This is further amplified that such an increase would be applicable to a pensioner till he/she reaches the top scale of their authorized pension. There after it ceases to be granted till such time as a new pay commission kicks in and salaries are increased.

The current out flow of OROP due to the inordinate delay in its implementation over the last 9 years has resulted in an increase of estimated cost of approximately 6000 crores leading to a figure of 8,293 crores as a “onetime payment.” There after as worked out by the three service pay cells independently followed by a review and checking by CGDA and finally the MoD. The figure of out flow in the following year would be .85% of the defence pension budget and subsequently reducing @. .62, .32, .21 and 0. Therefore by the 6th year there would be no review required. Mathematically calculated the highest pro-rata percentage amounts to approximately Rs.1635 crores and reducing and therefore quite a low figure to what is being mentioned in the range of 20,000 crores by un informed or deliberately obfuscating individuals who do not have the best interest of the armed forces in their mind.
Another figure being bandied around is the defence pension bill of Rs. 54,500 crores. Unknown to most including servicemen and veterans, who should be made aware, Rs 32,000 crores out of this services 4 lakh defence civilians. The balance Rs 22,000 crores is all that is available for 26 lakh ESM and 6 lakh widows. To add insult to injury most of the defence civilians are in receipt of Non-Functional Financial Upgradation (NFU), essentially meaning that they have availed OROP since 2006. Incidentally for the uninitiated the out flow of NFU in the past 8 years is whopping Rs 17,000 crores for a motley crowd of at best 20,000 personnel.
We on our part have clearly spelt out the entire basis of our calculations but it seems that other than MoD, the finance ministry and the PMO do not seem to be able to bring out in the public domain any contentious issues that need to be ironed out. It is our perception that whatever is being done in the current scenario by various stake holders in the MoF & PMO is with a view to embarrass the Prime Minister, by not allowing him to honour his commitments made on board the INS Vikramaditya and re-confirmed in the sacred battle fields of Siachen. For us soldiers honouring a commitment irrespective of the costs involved financial or otherwise is much more important than the financial benefits of OROP.
Mr. Prime Minister, would you like to take a call?
Col Anil Kaul, VrC (retd)
Media advisor
UFESM

[manjgu]

while there may be some merits in OROP..but on the other hand a person retired in say 1990 would have usually discharged his responsibilities like education of children, marriage of daughters, making a home etc. a person retiring in 2015 may still have many responsibilities to discharge. on the other hand cost of living etc will surely increase between 1990 and 2015. Some sensible formula needs to be found. with free medical care taken care of... not many expenses for old people... my dad retired in 1987 and he can barely spend his pension... which is in excess of 9 L per annum. I think they should make pension of men more attractive.

[chetak]

Received by email

OROP- The Truth and the Disinformation Campaign By Jaitley






----- Forwarded Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, 1 September 2015 6:19 AM
Subject: OROP- The Truth and the Disinformation Campaign By Jaitley - MUST READ

Hi All,
I am sending a mail that I recd, without any modification , because it tells the truth in full - there is NO need for any addition/ modification.I suggest you click the " View Entire Message" button at the end to complete your read.
The Govt has launched its misinformation campaign through its usual lackies in the media to depict the Veterans as a bunch of greedy persons. They are NOT !. They are only asking for what is just, their long outstanding dues and what is feasible - financially, technically and administratively.Major points for clarification:-
- The Veterans are NOT asking for any 3% increment every year, as Jaitley proclaims from every platform.It is clear disinformation campaign to project the Veterans in a bad light .
- The annual outgo is about Rs 8300 crores, which is very much feasible when we are talking of justice denied for the last 42 years ( since 1972) .Just imagine the amount the Govt saved by NOT paying the veterans their dues for the last 42 years !. This figure has been confirmed by the administrative ministry - MOD- as well as independent checks by GCDA and the veterans. . The longer the delay in decision making by the Fin Ministry , the greater will be the arrears. But, the blame here lies surely at the door of Arun Jaitley only.
Because , the Defence Minister - no fool himself - and people from across all spectrums of governance and politics - except Jaitley and his band of babus - are convinced of the elements of truth and justice involved in the demand of the Veterans .
Kindly read the mail below in full to get a clear picture of veteran's demand and the perfidy by Jaitley and his cahoots !.
LET TRUTH AND JUSTICE PREVAIL .
Bala



Now that statistical/ financial jugglery is being resorted to all round, for misleading public about OROP; and horror of horrors, people whose JOB it is to cement National HR, are all carelessly busy attempting to destroy even the most ideal demonstrable model- The Armed Forces, rather than emulate them, let us clarify some points. Please go through the mail in trail for clarity. It would interest those who CAN understand facts and figures, so before you form an opinion, study the details, for it is there the devil lies. And Babudom is extremely well trained to confuse issues' that's what has been happening on OROP all these years.

With Warm Regards,





Date: 31 August 2015 at 19:20
Subject: [IESM_GovBody] The Unholy Trinity Exposed

This is an open letter written to what has emerged as a troika of axis powers inimical to the interests of the Armed Forces.

On the first point of the troika is the honourable finance minister, Mr. Arun Jaitley, who is ably supported in conveying various incorrect state of procedures and issues by the other two points of the troika - Mr. Rajat Sharma (from the electronic media) and the management of The Times of India (from the print media).

I qualify my statement as given above with reference to a statement given by the Finance Minister with regard to OROP two days ago followed by two/three articles in The Times of India, one as late as this morning and the repeated viewing by the India TV channel of as supposed rift between the officers on one hand and JCOs and Other Ranks on the other hand.

A few figures would be in order
a) Total No. of Ex-servicemen: 26 Lakhs pan India
b) Total No. of widows: 6 Lakhs pan India
Out of this, beneficiaries of OROP
i) JCOs/ ORs/ Widows: 86%
ii) Officers: 14%
iii) Total Payout:
Officers: 2200 Cr (Approx)
JCOs/ORs/Widows: 6200 Cr (Approx)

Having said that, I think we would put to rest issues raised both by TOI and India TV as to who is going to benefit more.

Now, let us point our finger at the fountainhead of all controversy, Mr. Arun Jaitley who has had the temerity of questioning the very definition of OROP as accepted by parliaments thrice over and pulled up by the Supreme Court of India. It would be interesting to note that the Defence Ministry which is the nodal point for all matters relating to the Defence Forces has completed all the calculations and permutations to the last detail and submitted to the Finance Ministry as far back as 17th March this year.

It is, therefore, quite surprising that five months down the line, the finance ministry has not shown the ability to give the All Clear to the PMO for implementation.

What is further shocking is the kind of excuses and issues being brought up from time to time to somehow derail any modicum of talk or understanding between stakeholders that could have resulted in a resolution by now.
I would hasten to add that this particular part of my letter has been prepared by one of the most learned senior officers of the Indian Air Force who is an authority on OROP.

It is reliably learnt that a certain meeting taken by the Defence Minister where representatives of Service HQ as well as members of the governing/executive committee of ESM organizations were present, the following was made clear and obvious and approved by the Defence Minister: -

1. There isn’t an annual increment of pension because increment is for every additional year of service rendered to the Nation either as Services personnel or as a civilian Govt employee.

Elucidation A: - Increments are paid for every subsequent year in service i.e pay of a serving personnel A with 25 years’ service will be 3% lesser than the pay of a serving personnel B with 26 years of service.

Elucidation B: - Pension is paid on the basis of the last pay drawn for the number of years of service rendered. In the above example, A will get a pension for 25 years of service and B will get a pension for 26 years of service. An increment will mean that A will get the pension of B, who has rendered 26 years of service and pension of B will have to be incremented and become pension for 27 years of service.

The Origin of the 3% annual increment in pensions

2. However from a summary of the minutes of the first meeting it is well worth noting that it appears that the seeds of the mischief of an increment were sown in the incorrect recording of minutes of this meeting compiled by O/o CGDA in the following manner: -

2.1 At Para 4 (c) of the minutes, O/o CGDA recorded the minutes as follows: -

As future enhancements have to be automatically passed on to the pensioners,Services proposal for incremental increase in pension on 1st July every year shall be considered.

2.2. The mischief that is now being projected in the media and misquotes by some leaders of ESM was corrected by Rear Admiral P Joshi, Chairman PARC Naval Pay Commission Cell when he deleted the above and inserted and initialed in the margin in his own handwriting before he signed the minutes of the JWG: -

As future enhancements have to be automatically passed on to the pensioners, Service proposal for annual revision of OROP tables should be considered.

3. There would be an annual review in OROP. This is to remove the following anomalies: -

3.1. If C retires in a certain rank with 20 years service on 30 June of that year will draw less than D who retires with 20 years of service on 31st July of the same year because D gets the benefit of 3% increment on 1st July.

3.2. Bunching effect of 4 years in 4th CPC, 3 years in 5th CPC and 2 years in 6th CPC

3.3. Implementation of AVSC Phase I w.e.f 16th December 2004. It has resulted in officers being promoted to say Select rank of Lt Col in the 18th but those after 16thDecember 2004 being promoted in the 14th year.

4. Perusal of the modified/enhanced parity tables indicate a pension of Rs 7065 for a Sepoy in the 20 to 27 years service bracket and become Rs 7175 if the Sepoy served 27.5 years or more. Similar cap will occur for all personnel within a time frame of 5 years. Therefore, alarm bells rung by vitiated persons are based on lack of information or mala-fide misunderstanding the issue of OROP

5. It has been calculated and re validated with data for the period of 5 years and the financial effect is estimated to be 0.85% or Rs 185 crore.

6. The first annual review was scheduled to take place on 1st Jul 2015 and the next annual review would take place on 1st January 2016, when the recommendations of the 7th CPC kick in. Thereafter all annual reviews would be effective from 1st January of that year.

7. It is understood that the 7th CPC is very clear about the differences between Civilian pension and Military pension. Due to the Civilian Govt employees serving till the age of 60 years, it has been termed mature pension. Because Services personnel retire at younger ages, Military pension has been termed “aborted” pension, deserving a different method of being dealt with.

8. It is also understood that the ESM present at the meeting (Lt Gen Balbir Singh, Maj Gen Satbir Singh, Brig Katara, Gp Capt Gandhi etc) had vouched for the DGL prepared for OROP and the arguments in favour of matters cited in above paragraphs.

9. I reproduce gist of the Resolution 1/I/S/2008 which approved the recommendations of the 6th CPC with certain modifications: -

9.1. Para 1, Note 1: The edge presently accorded to Indian Administrative Service and Indian Foreign Service at three grades STS, JAG and SG will continue in the form of two additional increments @ 3% each will be adjusted in the pay band(emphasis supplied).

Interpretation: The 3% increments are for IAS Indian Foreign Service for the 3 grades and it will be absorbed in the Pay Bands of the 6th CPC. There isn’t anything for Armed Forces like the Lt Gen (retd) believes.

9.2. Annex I (VII) – Annual increment states 3% across the board except for high performers who will get 4% increments in certain grades.

9.3. SAI (and SNI/SAFI) No. 1 and 2/S/2008 also do not (Repeat) do not contain anymention of two increments of 3%.

10. Therefore, the 3% annual increase quoted is nothing but a red herring. Is that why we have ESM on fast unto death believing that 3% increment has to be part of OROP?

Now some data

11. Up to the rank of Major (and equivalents) who are in service will have lower pay in Apr 2014 than say Apr 2007 effect of AVSC which was effective from 16 Dec 2004 .

12. Similarly, in higher ranks there is no guarantee that a Col with 28 years service in Apr 2014 will draw a lower pay and pension than a Col in the 28th year completed in Apr 2015 or Apr 2016, simply due to the fact of higher fixation to 2014 retiree in January 2006. In fact most cells in the DGL tables (re-produced below) will not change every year.

Major/Lt Cdr/Sqn Ldr

In service in Apr 2007

Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
5

6
7
8
01 Jan 06
7
23810





6600





6000
920
36410
18205

01 Jan 07
8
24730
940
37330
18665

01 Jan 08
9
25670
970
38270
19135

01 Jan 09
10
26640
1000
39240
19620
9930
01 Jan 10
11
27640
1030
40240
20120
10482
01 Jan 11
12
28670
1060
41270
20635
11034
01 Jan 12
13
29370
1090
42330
21165
11585
01 Jan 13
14
30820
1130
43420
21710
12317
01 Jan 14
15
31950
1160
44550
22275
12689
01 Jan 15
16
33110
1200
45710
22855
13240

In service Apr 2014

Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
5
-
6
7
8
01 Jan 06
7
21630





6600





6000
850
34230
17115

01 Jan 07
8
22480
880
35080
17540

01 Jan 08
9
23360
900
35960
17980

01 Jan 09
10
24260
930
36860
18430
9930
01 Jan 10
11
25190
960
37790
18895
10482
01 Jan 11
12
26150
990
38750
19375
11034
01 Jan 12
13
27140
1020
39740
19870
11585
01 Jan 13
14
28160
1050
40760
20380
12317
01 Jan 14
15
29210
1080
41810
20905
12689
01 Jan 15
16
30290
1110
42890
21445
13240

Lt Col/Cdr/Wg Cdr

Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
5
-
6
7
8
01 Jan 09
14
37400




8000




6000
1370
51400
25700
16716
01 Jan 10
15
38770
1410
52770
26385
17510
01 Jan 11
16
40180
1450
54180
27090
18306
01 Jan 12
17
41630
1490
55630
27815
19102
01 Jan 13
18
43120
1540
57120
28560
19898
01 Jan 14
19
44660
1580
58660
29330
20894
01 Jan 15
20
46240
1630
60240
30120
21490
01 Jan 16
21
47870
1680
61870
30395
22286
01 Jan 17
22
49550
1730
63550
31775
23082
01 Jan 18
23
51280
1780
65280
32640
23878



Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
6
-
6
7
8
01 Jan 11
14
37400




8000




6000
1370
51400
25700
16716
01 Jan 12
15
38770
1410
52770
26385
17510
01 Jan 13
16
40180
1450
54180
27090
18306
01 Jan 14
17
41630
1490
55630
27815
19102
01 Jan 15
18
43120
1540
57120
28560
19898
01 Jan 16
19
44660
1580
58660
29330
20894
01 Jan 17
20
46240
1630
60240
30120
21490
01 Jan 18
21
47870
1680
61870
30395
22286
01 Jan 19
22
49550
1730
63550
31775
23082
01 Jan 20
23
51280
1780
65280
32640
23878

Colonel/Captain/Group Captain

Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
5
-
6
7
8
01 Jan 09
18
43120





8700





6000
1560
57820
28910
21057
01 Jan 10
19
44680
1610
59380
29690
21900
01 Jan 11
20
46290
1650
60990
30495
22742
01 Jan 12
21
47940
1700
62640
31320
23584
01 Jan 13
22
49640
1750
64340
32170
24426
01 Jan 14
23
51390
1810
66090
33045
25269
01 Jan 15
24
53200
1860
67900
33950
26111
01 Jan 16
25
55060
1920
69760
34880
26953
01 Jan 17
26
56980
1970
71680
35840
27795
01 Jan 18
27
58950
2030
73650
36825
27795


Year
QS
Pay in Pay Band
GP
MSP
Increment in Jul
Total
3+4+5
Pension
Pension in 17 Jan 13 letter
1
2
3
4
5
-
6
7
8
01 Jan 11
18
43120





8700





6000
1560
57820
28910
21057
01 Jan 12
19
44680
1610
59380
29690
21900
01 Jan 13
20
46290
1650
60990
30495
22742
01 Jan 14
21
47940
1700
62640
31320
23584
01 Jan 15
22
49640
1750
64340
32170
24426
01 Jan 16
23
51390
1810
66090
33045
25269
01 Jan 17
24
53200
1860
67900
33950
26111
01 Jan 18
25
55060
1920
69760
34880
26953
01 Jan 19
26
56980
1970
71680
35840
27795
01 Jan 20
27
58950
2030
73650
36825
27795


13. Conclusion:

The above tables clearly show that in steady state, pension will not be revised every year.

Majors/Lt Colonels/Colonels promoted earlier will draw the same pay and pension as the one promoted after him.

Once pension is reset on 1.4.2014 thereafter no change will take place except on the implementation of the recommendations of the 7th CPC.

For ORs and JCOs (retd) readers – tables are being prepared and will be posted ASAP. Please understand that there are factors such as Group X, Y and the erstwhile Z as well as maximum benefit etc and many JCOs having reached the top of the table on 17 Jan 2013.

14. I hope clear the air and reduce the fog of mistrust and, consequent but inadvertent misinformation misunderstanding of the red herring of 3% (annual) increment in pensions.

Having belied the much touted assertions of past pay-outs, I now come to the second part which relates to the Officers-JCOs-ORs relationship.
The Indian Armed Forces have a rock-steady relationship among the various ranks, differences of opinions notwithstanding. A platoon is led by one officer and has 35 JOCOs/ORs. Similarly, a company has a ratio of 2:118 and a Regt/Battalion 25:1000. For the uninitiated, it is these entities who, working cohesively, achieve the results that this nation demands of them. The Chetwoodian motto is followed in letter and spirit even after retirement.
Therefore, OROP, as explained above is mainly correcting a portion of the perceived wrong done to all our men in the last 67 years. It may be noted by all readers that baring a motley crowd of 12 JCO/OR, sitting on a platform separately from that of the UFESM, does not constitute a rift in such a strong bond. As you may not have noticed, Mr. Rajat Sharma and the management of TOI, the OROP agitation is running across 60-70 cities pan India with a happy mix of Officers, JCOs and Other Ranks affiliated to UFESM.
I hope this clears the air and you will stop issuing Press Releases and statements that cause harm to those who have made it their business to prevent you from coming to any harm.

Your initial ignorance of the agitation was better than this half-baked information being put out.


Media Advisor
UFESM

[sum]

Was this posted?
Multi-Calibre Assault Rifle: Made in India vs Make in India

Amidst media reports of the Indian Army scraping the search for a multi-calibre assault rifle from foreign vendors, a team from the Indian Defence Review (IDR) visited the Armament Research Development Establishment (ARDE) at Pune recently. It was an exercise undertaken to understand the efforts made by Indian scientists in developing an indigenous assault rifle; a call unheard thus far. The Indian Army is conducting field trials on various assault rifles of foreign make at Northern Command. ..

On the other side, braving all criticism of an inefficient INSAS rifle to its credit, unbelievably though, the ARDE has simultaneously developed a Multi-Calibre Individual Weapon System (MCIWS) as a technology demonstrator. The Indian Army, however, did not support this project and went ahead hunting in foreign lands for a dream assault rifle, thus ignoring the indigenous effort outright.

“Between the time when we get a request and the time the product is ready after initial testing, the requirements change,” informs a helpless scientist. “If the Army and the DRDO work together, and we are updated about the change in requirements, the product can be simultaneously upgraded,” this senior scientist adds. Quoting an example he mentioned that India is now almost self-sufficient in radars because the Navy and the DRDO worked very closely on it.

Going by newspaper reports, the top-of-the-line assault rifles such as Beretta’s ARX-160 (Italy), Colt Combat Rifle (the US), CA 805 BREN (the Czech Republic) and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE1 model failed to make a mark owing to the unrealistic General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). However, these trials are still being conducted and no final outcome has emerged so far, a highly placed source at Army Headquarters informed IDR. The source negated earlier media reports that the army ..

Though the chances are high for abandoning this foreign dream, not for any other reasons hinting at a doctrinal shift but to save itself of the embarrassment caused due to the unrealistic expectations from its GSQRs, he added

Sad read and the comments for the article have some IA and ex-IA guys who say:

I agree we should pick up from Israel or the world market definitely not from ARDE. Even our MBT Arjun is a failure when you compare the price at which it was made. We could have equipped 2 Armd Divs extra at the same cost. DRDO except Missile Project should be disbanded. It is a waste of Defense funds which are used as party funds for the Govt in power.

[chetak]

Spoke in the 'One Rank One Pension' wheel

Spoke in the 'One Rank One Pension'

Lt-Gen Harwant Singh (Retd) | Updated: Jun 02, 2015 10:47 IST

It needs to be stated that central police organisations (CPOs) are wrongly designating themselves and by some others as paramilitary. There is absolutely nothing military about them. Masquerading as paramilitary, they ask for equivalent of one rank, one pension (OROP). They appear to have been prompted by others opposed to the grant of the OROP. This is yet another attempt to put one more spoke in the OROP wheel.

There are only two paramilitary groups in India — Assam Rifles and Rashtriya Rifles. So, the police, including the Border Security Force (BSF), Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and a plethora of others, need to disabuse themselves of this notion of being paramilitary.


ANOMALIES IN ALLOWANCES

Nearly 85% of military personnel retire at the age of 35-37 years whereas policemen retire at the age of 60. Another 23-24% of military personnel retire at varying ages between 45 and 56 years. When a soldier and a police constable reach the age of 60, the latter would have drawn approximately `45 lakh more than a soldier (pay in the case of a constable and pay plus pension in the case of a soldier). So, it’s pointless to compare onions with apples. Look at the anomalies in just a few allowances which an armyman gets and a policeman is given. The paratrooper allowance for a soldier is Rs 800 to Rs 1,200, whereas it is between Rs 7,200 and Rs 11,000 in case of Commando Battalion for Resolute Action (CoBRA BN), which is one of the CPOs.


AT THE RECEIVING END

A disabled armyman is sent out of service whereas a government servant is retained till the age of 60 years. A soldier posted in Kashmir (other than high altitude) and northeast gets no special allowance, whereas a policeman from the CPO gets double house rent allowance (HRA). When posted in peace stations such as Shillong, Aizwal, Sikkim and better part of Jammu and Kashmir, a soldier gets no extra allowance, whereas a policeman from the CPO gets 12.5% of the basic pay as a special duty allowance —25% of the basic pay as hardship allowance for IAS officers of the UT cadre and detachment allowance of Rs 300 per day for all central armed police forces personnel. None of these allowances are applicable to the defence services. Then there is what is called headquarter allowance of Rs 4,000 for the civil services officials which the officers of the defence forces don’t get. While the list of such difference is long, just one more example should drive home the point as to how civil services and the CPOs have feathered their nests. A defence services officer on instructional staff at the National Defence College gets Rs 1,800 per month whereas one from the CPO and civil services gets Rs 19,000 per month.


DISCRIMINATION

The higher command of the defence services need to explain to their officers and men as to how this vast difference in allowances have come about and why they have never raised such issues with the seriousness they demand. Why they were being denied non-functional upgradation and how the services came to accept this palpable discrimination?

Some retired chiefs of the CPOs have alleged that their personnel have suffered more casualties than armymen. This is evidently incorrect. Most CPO casualties have been at the hands of ill-trained and ill-equipped Maoists and other insurgent groups and all this speaks poorly of the leadership and training of these CPOs. These chiefs of the CPOs need tell us as to how many IPS officers have been killed in fighting Maoists. The BSF needs tell the nation how more than three crore Bangladeshis have crossed over to India?


EXCUSE TO DELAY OROP

This government is fast losing its credibility and appears to be seeking one or the other excuse to delay and perhaps dilute the OROP. Various figures are being floated, but no one tells how much nonfunctional upgradation has been granted since the sixth pay commission to the class-A central services officers (over four dozen of them). As also if any of these services suffer anywhere near the same range of disadvantages as the defence services officers.

Though the parliamentary committee has been very clear and precise in spelling out what exactly the OROP is, it is the bureaucracy which is trying to flummox the politicians by firstly throwing different figures and then frightening them that others too will ask for the same. On the other hand, they also prompt the others to demand the OROP. The political class should be alive to the compelling rationale for the grant of the OROP.


UNAWARE POLITICIANS

The political class seems to be unaware of the deep bonding between the veterans and those still in service, and the denial to the former, what is rightly their due, will equally impact the latter.

Finally, the Supreme Court was constrained to observe that the veterans were being forced to beg. Today, the military service fails to draw the right material in its officer cadre and it is possible to substantiate this argument with many instances of poor display of leadership within the military in the recent past.

Let this piece end with a quote from Lord Morgan’s book — Anatomy of Courage. “If we persuade intelligent youth to hold back from the army in peace, we ought not to complain, if we are poorly led in war.” India has a long history of its armies being poorly led and thus suffering unbroken chains of military defeats at the hands of invading armies.

[chaanakya]

Actually they are not even the Police Force as they have no power of policing under IPC and CrPC. Initially , when this objection was raised by Army , MHA designated them as Central Paramilitary Force or CPMF. This was again objected by the Army. And hence renamed as CAPF or Central Auxilliary Police force. CBI and NIA qualifies as CPOs or Central Police Organisations as they have powers to take up investigations register cases as available to state /district police.