The one thing we can agree on is CATOBAR..the future is likely to be AMCA + JSF, the interim might be lca plus fulcrum with an outside chance for rafale.
In that case only the LCA, the JSF and the Rafale-M qualify. The rest are al TBD.
The one thing we can agree on is CATOBAR..the future is likely to be AMCA + JSF, the interim might be lca plus fulcrum with an outside chance for rafale.
Ironic isn't it, that the Russian Navy is phasing out the big heavy Su-33 in favour of.. the MiG-29K. Perhaps they haven't heard how cheap new naval Flankers are.Philip wrote:As said on another td.,the best naval aircraft for the 65K t CV would be a naval variant of the Super Sukhoi,BMos-M equipped (3),with stealth additives,far more capable than the naval Rafale and would cost half the price too.
"no pressure" I assume.An F35Bish VTOL on AMCA variant
The gear box and fan design would be too complex and unreliable. Unkil would have gotten a slimmer, faster, probably supercruising F-35, if a twin engine VTOL variant was feasible.SaiK wrote: now, that would mean to befriend with P&W.. but with an interesting twist to the design here would be a twin engine VTOL that can also do the TVC. a 90* rear for the vertical take off would be the thing to go after, aided by a central dual turbine on either side [like a quadcopter, dual use that drive the auxiliary power too]
India To Discuss FGFA, Multi-Role Transport Aircraft With Russia Next Month
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Wednesday, October 21, 2015 @ 11:37 AM
Sukhoi T-50 Pak-FA aircraftac
Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar will be discussing the delayed fifth generation fighter aircraft development program along with multi-role transport aircraft on his visit to Moscow next month.
The minister will co-chair a meeting of Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Co-operation (IRIGCMTC) on November 2.
The FGFA combines stealth, super-cruise capability, super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.
It was in 2007 that the Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement for the FGFA was inked. It was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010.
India had asked Russia to permit test-pilots of Indian Air force to fly its fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) last month.
The option about making an outright purchase of yet undisclosed number of the FGFA is reportedly being thought of in lines with the way Narendra Modi decided to buy the Rafales. Modi is scheduled to visit Moscow in December next.
Retired Air Marshal and former vice chief of air staff, Pranob K Barbora told Defenseworld last month that “Despite our best attempts to have our pilots undertaking ‘proving flights’ of the MiG-21 BIS and Su-30 MKI, we could not have the Russians to agree to it.” This time the effort is again being made to do the same.
The research and development contract signed by the erstwhile UPA government has costed the country $ 400 million. And sources say, since then the price of the aircraft, being used by the Russian Air Force has shot up substantially.
Next stage of the contracting process, the signing of the joint development agreement, is being held back, while the Modi government is yet to decide the exact path it should take.
Russia Likely To Discuss 154 Sukhoi PAK FA Fighter Jets To India
Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, October 26, 2015
Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jet
Russia is expected to sign contract with India to deliver 154 Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets during the upcoming annual Indo-Russian summit.
The agreement, which will be under the joint FGFA initiative, will include work share and a commitment to the number of single-seat and double-seat aircraft, The Financial Express reported today.
"As currently the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in deep trouble due to its fast depleting force structure, India has to take wise decision with long-term as well as strategic foresight. There is no doubt that the PAK-FA (Sukhoi Design Proposal) will emerge as a major FGFA in the world,” An unnamed official was quoted as saying by the news daily.
“Hence, it would be better for India to take a reality check on the FGFA and recalibrate its position”, the official added.
The fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme is based on the Russian-made Sukhoi T-50 aircraft. It involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
Russia and India, in January, agreed on the FGFA jet fighter project. All technical details had been settled, except commercial part which is in discussion, Rosoboronexport reported.
That's fairly accurate although they would not have been able to afford a twin given the quantities required. A twin engine set up would add Billions to the O&S cost given the expeditionary nature and as such it was extremely hard to justify replacing a single engine fighter (F-16 is still the dominant replacement quantity driver and not the F-18) with a twin. You could still get a super-cruising design with a single engine requirement if you were able to make the desired tradeoffs in combat radius, weapons carriage capacity/flexibility, and stealth. With the current design it is clear that the trade space was tightly controlled by combat radius, the flexibility to carry the GBU-31, affordability (2 engines vs 1, advances sought in stealth, and Avionics reliability requirements) and stealth. Supercruise and high end speed was allowed to be traded for these metrics more liberally than was the case with the ATF for example. A twin would have still have been required to exist within the same trade-space that exists now with the main driver being the ability to replace all of the F-16 fleet with 5th generation capability.Thakur_B wrote:The gear box and fan design would be too complex and unreliable. Unkil would have gotten a slimmer, faster, probably supercruising F-35, if a twin engine VTOL variant was feasible.SaiK wrote: now, that would mean to befriend with P&W.. but with an interesting twist to the design here would be a twin engine VTOL that can also do the TVC. a 90* rear for the vertical take off would be the thing to go after, aided by a central dual turbine on either side [like a quadcopter, dual use that drive the auxiliary power too]
So the Russians weren't willing to sponsor the development on a naval 'Super' Sukhoi, preferring instead to piggyback on Indian MiG-29K orders. But for some reason, the same logic doesn't apply to India when to comes to sponsoring Russian R&D efforts.Philip wrote:The SU-33 prod. was stopped some time ago.Since the 29K is in production,ordering some for the RuN is cost-effective for immediate usage aboard the Kuznetsov.
The Flanker will also be inferior to other naval stealth aircraft, with or without 'stealth additives'.However,Russia too has plans for building larger carriers in the future.10 years down the line the 29K will be inferior to other naval aircraft,esp. those with some stealth capabilities.Either it restarts Flanker prod. with a new advanced variant,or as hinted in some reports,develop a naval FGFA.The last option is a MIG-35 naval variant with stealth "additives".
Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.Viv S wrote:Ironic isn't it, that the Russian Navy is phasing out the big heavy Su-33 in favour of.. the MiG-29K. Perhaps they haven't heard how cheap new naval Flankers are.Philip wrote:As said on another td.,the best naval aircraft for the 65K t CV would be a naval variant of the Super Sukhoi,BMos-M equipped (3),with stealth additives,far more capable than the naval Rafale and would cost half the price too.
One, the SH still remains a somewhat more capable aircraft than the MiG-29K mainly down to the avionics component (its been fielding an AESA since 2004) and reliability.Philip wrote:The MIG-29Ks are as "obsolescent" as an F-18SH! In air combat probably much better. In fact the IN should exercise them with IAF aircraft to determine the +s and -s of the type.
That tells us that a plastic model of the Su-30 can be equipped with internal bays. Also, seeing as they didn't bother developing one when they needed a Su-33 replacement, why exactly would the Russians develop another naval Flanker without any use for it? Let me guess.. because India's is underwriting the R&D cost in your scenario?The new Super-Sukhois,once shown in concept with an internal weapons bay,would have significant extra capabilities than an MKI. Who knows,the Russians may indeed develop another naval Flanker until a naval FGFA and a new CV materialise.
Which only goes to show how ludicrous the idea of planning for a naval Flanker with internal bays is.John wrote:Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.
The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.Viv S wrote:Which only goes to show how ludicrous the idea of planning for a naval Flanker with internal bays is.John wrote:Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.
IAF has been requesting access to the PAK-FA. How come you know it is a beast?but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether
Indeed it will be. On the other hand, a naval PAK FA is still a long way off - even the definitive second stage PAK FA won't be ready before 2022 (possibly later). Unless the RuN upgrades its carrier ambitions to a higher priority, which doesn't seem to be the case. More importantly, the aircraft is likely to be designed for catapult launch, which makes it perfectly suitable for the IAC-2 Vishal (which too is a long long way off) but will leave it wanting as a MiG-29K replacement.Thakur_B wrote:The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.
Well.. compared to the Su-33, it should be. Big aircraft with oodles of thrust, stealthy airframe and modern avionics. Although given that the airframe is optimized for the transonic and supersonic regime, at low airspeeds (congruous with STOBAR launch) it isn't necessarily superior to the Flanker (or Fulcrum) family.NRao wrote:but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether
Well if the IAF would make do with the information on Pak-Fa on the interwebz they'd be pretty stoked unfortunately they need a lot more info to actually make decisions.NRao wrote:Just curious .................
IAF has been requesting access to the PAK-FA. How come you know it is a beast?but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether
Corrected for accuracy.unfortunately they need a lot more info to actually make decisions.
No matter how big and powerful pak fa engine is airframe will take beating operating from STOBAR especially in the landing, trying to land the 30 ton "beast".Thakur_B wrote: The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.
Looks like Tibet to me.Nick_S wrote:IAF FGFA Artwork by 'crow11' @keypub - http://i.imgur.com/1jz1NsG.jpg
-------Parrikar clears decks for acquisition of fifth generation stealth fighters from Russia: have directed officers to commence negotiations.
Ahead of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s three-day Russia visit, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared two projects for the upgradation of engines and avionics of IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft from Russia for Rs 4,300 crore. Parrikar leaves on Friday.
Meanwhile, the DAC also cleared projects worth around Rs 12,000 crore.
The two countries are also likely to discuss the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal besides leasing of the second nuclear submarine to India. Parrikar will visit Moscow and St Petersburg and discuss defence cooperation between the two nations. He will also visit Admiralty Shipyard, one of the oldest and largest shipyards.
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, on the eve of his departure to Russia, says he hopes to "prepare some [contracts for signing during] Prime Minister Narendra Modi's annual summit visit to Russia in December.
.....................................................
The proposal for India and Russia to co-develop two major aircraft - the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA) - has been in trouble for some time. Parrikar spelt out the problems in both projects.
"As for the FGFA, negotiations will proceed further and we have halted ourselves to establish things clear in our minds. But with the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft, there are serious issues needing clarification, let me be frank. There are some serious observations which need to be clarified and reviewed properly," said the Indian defence minister.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 52700.htmlDespite India and Russia still having ‘serious’ differences over the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the two-sides are set to immediately re-commence the stalled negotiation process on the plane. Talks have been stalled for the past two years.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will take up the issue with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu at the annual meeting of the two ministers in Moscow, sources have indicated. Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers will be part of Parrikar’s delegation.
Parrikar has left for Russia and will be meeting the Russian minister on November 2.
Before that, he will visit St Petersburg on the north-west coast of Russia. He will be visiting the Admiralty shipyard that makes submarines and also runs a state-run research centre. Though the IAF had a demand of some 127 FGFAs, it has halved its demand to have just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each). It was first reported in The Tribune in its edition dated August 11.
There are two parts to the FGFA project. One is the research and development (R&D) contract for $11 billion for long-term development of the jet. It has been pending ratification since 2013. The second is the actual joint-production or manufacturing of the plane. The preliminary design stage of the FGFA programme was completed in June 2013 and India has so far spent Rs 1,483.15 crore on it.
As a result, the T-50 fighter jet has been built for the Russians under its PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme for the FGFA. The jet is already test-flying and is slated to be inducted into the Russian air force in 2016.
New Delhi wants a more powerful engine; a greater share in the joint-production and is looking to get some of the planes in an off-the-shelf deal and not wait longer as its fighter-jet fleet is dwindling.
New Delhi is likely to suggest to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet could be supplied to the IAF while the research to improve upon the aircraft could be carried on simultaneously.
At least 154 FGFAs are being negotiated. And that number like the Su-30 MKI program is likely to become 300 eventually.
Plus S-400s,leased SSNs, GLONASS-K mil grade for ICBM targeting & Russki DSRVs.
We jingos would rather have the Russians be exposed on their current deficiencies in the aircraft than deny India to locally upgrade the PAK-FAs.http://idrw.org/can-parrikar-crack-fgfa ... more-77406
India has been trying to Convince Russia to supply Pak-fa in its current standards and let India locally upgrade them to IAF’s requirements over the years in the country with Indian developed or sourced components, but Russia is not keen on such arrangements since it will save India on R&D cost and will deny Russia much needed funds to fix current deficiencies in the aircraft and make it viable aircraft in the Export market among its existing Sukhoi fleet customers .
The same wish list since 2010 ..yet nothing ..This year they added S 400Nick_S wrote:Saurav Jha @SJha1618 3h3 hours agoAt least 154 FGFAs are being negotiated. And that number like the Su-30 MKI program is likely to become 300 eventually.
Plus S-400s,leased SSNs, GLONASS-K mil grade for ICBM targeting & Russki DSRVs.
They sacrificed certain features (as compared to the US variants), one of them was the S-shaped ducts. It is part of their design, not a bug.SaiK wrote:The S-shaped inlet is still not verified. Nor the design to deflect/absorb EM radiations.
What could impact Indian decision:3 December 2015 Tatyana Rusakova, RIR
The new engine of the PAK FA will only be tested as late as 2018 because there are difficulties in conducting the bench testing. However, the country’s defence capability will not be affected by this delay, say analysts.
The second stage of testing the engine for the newest front-line fighter, the PAK FA, has been delayed by a year. The aircraft will now fly with the new engine only in 2018, and not in 2017 as originally planned.
The technical complexity of this project requires a long bench-testing period for the new engine, further delaying final completion date of the fifth generation fighter programme. Vladimir Prokhvatilov, expert at the Russian Academy of Military Sciences, said the engines “will be brought to a fully operational state no earlier than 2025”.
Today five prototypes of the PAK FA are flying using engines of the first stage; the AL-41F1. These are capable of developing a thrust of 86.3 kN, and 147 kN in the afterburner mode, but this does not meet the requirements of a fifth generation fighter, or the thrust-weight ratio, or fuel consumption requirements.
The second generation engines will, in terms of fuel efficiency and thrust-weight ratio, be much more effective than the predecessors, and will achieve full compliance with the technical criteria for fifth-generation engines. This will ensure that the T-50 can achieve supersonic cruising speeds without using afterburners.
Postponing testing for the second generation engine will affect the completion schedule of the entire PAK FA program, but analysts do not think this would pose any serious problems. “The Su-35s that are now entering active service in the military – are already almost fifth generation fighters, and these can be used for a long time,” RIR learned from Vladimir Shcherbakov, deputy chief editor of Vzlyot (Take-off) Magazine.
A shift “towards the future” of the PAK FA program will not affect the country’s defence capabilities, said Shcherbakov. “We must not forget that we have had a curtailment of spending – for now the state budget cannot handle the previously set amounts for national defence purchases. The Americans have also significantly reduced their purchases of Raptors (F-22s) – which are too expensive, and there is no strong opponent in existence,” said Shcherbakov.
Capacities focused on producing the PAK FA will not remain idle. The Defence Ministry will provide them other orders. These factories are already assembling 4+ generation aircraft. The signed state contract, concluded in August 2009 between the Russian Defence Ministry and the Sukhoi Company states that the Russian Air Force should receive 15 new Su-35S in 2015