PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Aug 2014 19:14

Does anyone know, if it is true that Carlo Kopp is about to retire?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 04 Aug 2014 21:53

A PAKFA designed for stealth and with modern technology is far more impressive than what Lockheed Martin has delivered to date

What are the specs of this notional version. How exactly is the performance altered with newer additions, and when will a representative prototype with those additions be in the air?. Provide some hard data if possible.

Or rather failed, even now 2020 is the earliest date that fighter could be operational.

F-22 would be operational for a decade this time next year when the F-35 with VMFA-121 declares operational status (July 2015).

Russia will see the PAK-FA in 2016

So no full mission suite flying with production engines, the stealth not even completely put on an airframe (as per AUSTIN) and no serial production started, yet the entire test program will finalize, operationalize and mass produce a working fully stealth 5th generation fighter in less than 2 years. What are the cumulative flying hours the T-50 fleet has put up to date? What fraction of those hours has been with a fleet of jets equipped with a full mission-system load? What is the operational criteria for the T-50 in 2016?. What sort of capability has to be proven and verified before this is achieved? What weapons have to be cleared by 2016? what mission-systems have to be fully tested by 2016?

That said the US comparison is by far the worst aircraft development program in history.

Seriously? How many Flight test programs and developmental efforts have you studied extensively? Rather then point some links do share some original thought based on your research into various programs. Bring that discussion over to the JSF - Turkey thread if possible since most of what you are doing here is comparing a notional PAKFA (version who's specs you do not know) to real representative, in service F-22's and Soon to be operational (11 months form now) F-35's with known specs.

No nation, including the US can afford the JSF.

Of course because you say so, along with your fairy tales that none of the customer nations know the true cost but you and your links "do" along with wheeler'ites and once these air chiefs (of the customer air forces) figure out the true cost of the jet they'll all duck for cover and bolt out. Good to see you carrying on these fantasies. Bring them over to the Turkey thread where I have rebutted them and we can discuss them further. Also, when you have time, do answer the question I asked in the other thread - What is the full ownership cost of the Su-30MKI. Include the procurement unit fly away cost, Life-time maintenance cost, airframe life and servicing cost, cost of spares, cost of fuel to fly it over the life of the airframe (do include an estimate of the fuel cost-inflation over the life of the airframe unless you want to store all the fuel needed to fly the aircraft over its lifetime in one go), cost of any overhauls and engine changes and the cost to order a SLEP to extend the MKI's to 8000 or more hours of operation etc. Basically the total cost to own one single Su-30MKI over the 20 or more years of operation..Also tell me the same on the overall cost for the same parameters on the PAKFA/FGFA. I assume here that you know these basic things about the PAKFA and the MKI since you have clearly worked these numbers out when you compared these programs to the Lockheed programs and declared the latter ones inferior/failures.

But for the US, with the F-117, B-2, F-22, and every other stealth program the US has run to date, an unmitigated failure.

Again, because you say so..I bet a couple of Wheeler links will drive home the point..

The F-22 couldn't have succeeded right from the start

Of course how could it. Its not made in Russia..

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 05 Aug 2014 11:06

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here's the current data

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi/HAL_FGFA

It is a derivative project from the PAK FA (T-50 is the prototype) being developed for the Indian Air Force. FGFA was the earlier designation for the Indian version, while the combined project is now called the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF).[4]

The completed PMF will include a total of 43 improvements over the T-50, including stealth, supercruise, advanced sensors, networking and combat avionics.The first aircraft is to begin testing in India in 2014, with introduction into service expected by 2022

2015 for the JSF to begin flying?

The Australian government also believed Lockheed Martin's dates, and an entire fleet of F-18 later, not even 1 JSF fighter is in Oz. There isn't even a 1% chance that 2015 will see a JSF fly. It didn't even fly in the UK airshow.

http://aviationweek.com/defense/austral ... -35-slides

The issue is the track record. Nothing in LM's track record to date inspires confidence in any part of their ability to meet cost, time or capability targets.

So no full mission suite flying with production engines, the stealth not even completely put on an airframe (as per AUSTIN) and no serial production started, yet the entire test program will finalize, operationalize and mass produce a working fully stealth 5th generation fighter in less than 2 years. What are the cumulative flying hours the T-50 fleet has put up to date? What fraction of those hours has been with a fleet of jets equipped with a full mission-system load? What is the operational criteria for the T-50 in 2016?. What sort of capability has to be proven and verified before this is achieved? What weapons have to be cleared by 2016? what mission-systems have to be fully tested by 2016?

Russian Wikipedia on PAKFA

http://goo.gl/gn0TMK

There are two prototypes on the ground and 7 planes flying. Don't know what happened to the plane that was on fire.
Missiles have been fired from the PAK-FA and bombs have been dropped. I would assume exactly as per the Tejas programme, that it has to be cleared to 8Gs etc. The Russians have built and flown many planes, it's to be expected that they can beat LM to the punch using their experience From what I can see, the Russians did concurrent engineering correctly while LM stuffed it up. Also, PAKFA is an ongoing program. It didn't start 2 years ago.

Seriously? How many Flight test programs and developmental efforts have you studied extensively?

F-22, B-2, F-117,B-1. Essentially every stealth program the US has run has ended in failure. Cost, timelines and capability. These are all the same issues faced by the JSF. History repeats. The exact same issue that killed all these programs is at issue today. The cost spirals out of control, ending in a plane that literally costs a billion per copy(B2). Orders are cut. Costs increase even more. Orders are cut even further. Endless loop later, program is cancelled at a token amount of planes. In the meantime, US keeps flying obsolete planes like the B-52. From WWII no less.
See F-22 program for another example. Starts at 750 planes, but orders keep getting cut and price per plane keeps rising.

Also, when you have time, do answer the question I asked in the other thread - What is the full ownership cost of the Su-30MKI. Include the procurement unit fly away cost, Life-time maintenance cost, airframe life and servicing cost, cost of spares, cost of fuel to fly it over the life of the airframe (do include an estimate of the fuel cost-inflation over the life of the airframe unless you want to store all the fuel needed to fly the aircraft over its lifetime in one go), cost of any overhauls and engine changes and the cost to order a SLEP to extend the MKI's to 8000 or more hours of operation etc. Basically the total cost to own one single Su-30MKI over the 20 or more years of operation..Also tell me the same on the overall cost for the same parameters on the PAKFA/FGFA. I assume here that you know these basic things about the PAKFA and the MKI since you have clearly worked these numbers out when you compared these programs to the Lockheed programs and declared the latter ones inferior/failures.

OK. I'll spend some time on it, and work up the best case estimate for Su-30 MKI costs. Not all costs have been disclosed, estimates will have to do for a lot of it. If relevant Russian plane costs like Mig-29 is available, those will be used instead.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 05 Aug 2014 12:00

Estimating PAK-FA and Su-30 MKI acquisition and operating costs + upgrades

PAK-FA Su-30 MKI
Acquisition cost 100 million 45 million
Upgrades N/A 5 million
Training costs Identical
Maintenance 1/2 because single engine craft and smaller than MKI

Elaborating on the procurement of the Sukhoi-30 MKI and ‘Tejas’ LCA, the Defence Minister stated that the total cost of procurement of the Su-30 MKI is over $ 12.38 billion. /272 = 45 million

Sources
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... i-aircraft
http://aviationweek.com/awin/india-conc ... are-russia
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... r-aircraft
http://aviationweek.com/awin-featured-s ... 45-billion

I would love to produce a Life Cycle Cost, but will settle for one that includes everything we have actual hard data on.
A lot of the life cycle costs should be exactly the same between these two planes, because pilots are being trained on the same Hawk-IJT trainer, both use aviation fuel, Indian missiles and bombs etc. So the PAK-FA operating cost should be the same as the Su-30 MKI. So please post with news links and calculations, so I can figure out what the real cost of the S-30 MKI is.

Life-cycle cost: The (total) life-cycle cost (LCC) takes the program acquisition cost and adds to it all of the projected lifetime logistic and operational costs: munitions and missiles, AVPOL (fuel, oil, and lubricants), spares (other than initial spares), replenishment, depot maintenance, system support and modifications, as well as the costs of hiring, training, supporting, and paying the personnel associated with the operating unit(s).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Aug 2014 12:06

Take Off Magazine Latest Issue has updates on T-50 Flight test program and Radar Program ( pg 33 , 34 ) ( pdf download )

http://en.take-off.ru/index.php/compone ... cle/45/431

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 05 Aug 2014 16:16

Thanks Austin. The bit about the AESA Radar on pg 37 was interesting, and confirmation that the radar part is going well. It seems at least 4 more prototypes are planned, and they have fitted all the existing prototypes with the AESA radar and have tested air to air and air to ground modes. So the current status of the PAK-FA is: No known problems to stop production in 2016.

Radar integrated, and weapons tested. The engine is still the AL-41F, but it can attain supercruise.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/two-ru ... 35b000f647

Between them, 053 and 054 carried R-73 short-range air-to-air missiles, R-77 medium-range air-to-air missiles and KH-31 anti-ship missiles.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 05 Aug 2014 18:04

I have replied to your post in the JSF-Turkey thread as most of the things I am claiming have been presented as evidence in that thread.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Aug 2014 04:54

Build your own T-50 model

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Aug 2014 00:02

http://rt.com/news/179256-russia-deploy-s500-missiles/

Russia to deploy fifth-gen fighters, S-500 missiles in 2016

In 2016, the Russian military will start deploying two advanced weapons, the fifth-generation fighter jet PAK FA and the long-range surface-to-air missile systems S-500, chief of the Russian Air Forces said.

Lieutenant General Viktor Bondarev gave an outline of his branch's modernization plans, including the build-up of Arctic infrastructure, in a radio interview with the Russian News Service station on Sunday.

The flight trials of PAK FA (T-50) will soon be over, and in 2016 the Air Force is planning to start commissioning the aircraft into service, the general said.

PAK FA is Russia's first fifth-generation fighter jet built by the Sukhoi Corporation. So far five prototypes have been completed and are undergoing various tests. The fighter is scheduled to eventually replace Sukhoi Su-27s.

“It took part in the [international pilot competition] Aviadarts twice and performed aerobatic flights in pair. I believe the aircraft has a brilliant future,” the general said.

T-50 fifth-generation multirole fighter (RIA Novosti / Alexander Vilf)

Another new addition to the ranks planned for 2016 is S-500, a state-of-the-art long-range air defense system developed by Almaz Antei, Bondarev said. The producer is finalizing new missiles for the system, which would have advanced homing electronics.

“The missiles will have a build-in intelligence system, which will analyze the aerial and radar environment and take decisions about its altitude, speed and direction of the flight,” the general said.

S-500 is an advanced version of S-400 with dedicated components designed to intercept ballistic missiles at a height of up to 200 km. The system is expected to be able to shut down up to 10 incoming ballistic missiles simultaneously. It also has an extended radar range compared to S-400.

Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 "Triumph" (RIA Novosti / Grigoriy Sisoev)

Gen. Bondarev confirmed the previously reported schedule for the development of PAK DA, a new Russian strategic bomber. So far little has been made public about the aircraft, which is to replace Tupolev Tu-95s and Tu-160s as the backbone of Russia's aerial nuclear capability. It's rumored to be a sub-sonic flying wing design and may have a new nuclear-capable cruise missile developed for armament.

The general confirmed that the Air Forces expect Tupolev to produce first prototypes of PAK DA by the end of the decade and launch series production in 2021-2022. In the meantime, modernization programs for Tu-95s and Tu-160s are enough to keep the Russian strategic bomber fleet in good shape and sufficient for the renewed long-range flight missions, he said.

Arguably the biggest modernization effort required from the Air Forces is focused on the Arctic infrastructure. Back in Soviet times the military maintained a massive network of airfields and radar stations in the north, but they were neglected in the years following the USSR’s collapse. With rich Arctic resources becoming more accessible and a potential for a conflict in the area growing, the Russian military are rebuilding the Arctic bases.

“We don't see any rivals in the Arctic now, but if a challenge comes, we must be prepared to defend this region. The presence in the Arctic will be increased,” General Bondarev said.

Russia this year reopened the Temp airfield on Kotelny Island north of eastern Siberia, the general announced. There are plans to enlarge the bases in Tiksi, Alykel, Vorkuta and Anadyr. In the future, full-strength divisions and regiments of the Russian Air Force will be deployed in the north.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 11 Aug 2014 10:06

we were also thinking about some version of these SAMS (S-300PMU i think)

But with these many SAM systems on the basket it has become very Heavy basket.(to bear for the Armed forces)

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Aug 2014 16:33

Philip wrote:http://rt.com/news/179256-russia-deploy-s500-missiles/

Russia to deploy fifth-gen fighters, S-500 missiles in 2016

Induct fifth gen fighter, rather than deploy. While notionally in service, the aircraft will be combat capable only by decade end. And the definitive variant with a 5th gen engine will come after 2020.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 11 Aug 2014 18:01

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:http://rt.com/news/179256-russia-deploy-s500-missiles/

Russia to deploy fifth-gen fighters, S-500 missiles in 2016
Induct fifth gen fighter, rather than deploy. While notionally in service, the aircraft will be combat capable only by decade end. And the definitive variant with a 5th gen engine will come after 2020.

Yes, but all of these issues also affect the F-35. Even today, the F-22 stiil isn't combat ready and has basic issues with oxygen generation. A new engine isn't needed, just preferable for maintenance reasons. The PAK-FA is likely to beat the F-35 into combat readiness. 20 million lines of source code. That's hardly looking very promising.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Aug 2014 18:26

Yes, but all of these issues also affect the F-35

The F-35B will have the USMC's required CAS ability by the middle of 2015 and would be forward deployed by early 2016 to Iwakuni Air base in Japan. It would be able to conduct the desired mission for the USMC post IOC if required.

Even today, the F-22 stiil isn't combat ready and has basic issues with oxygen generation

F-22 isn't ready for combat? Its regularly rotating to hot-spots just like the F-15's did and still do. The OBOGS issues are old news, the backup system has been installed and the fighter is rotating as per the squadron scheduled and is fully ready to perform the mission set its meant to perform (A2A, limited SEAD/DEAD). F-16's had limited operational capability following the engine problems that grounded the IDF fleet last year, that doesn't mean the F-16's are " still not combat ready". It would be really really nice that fighter aircraft or other technical military equipment, never in their lifetime of operation develop any technical trouble that requires investigation, grounds the fleet, or requires a change of part or parts to get it back to its full capability. That day hasn't come yet. Perhaps one day it will.

A new engine isn't needed, just preferable for maintenance reasons

So apart from maintenance improvements the Next generation engine for the PAKFA will offer no other benefit?

The PAK-FA is likely to beat the F-35 into combat readiness

Again, you have conducted an extremely brilliant technical analysis.

20 million lines of source code. That's hardly looking very promising

Yeah its sooooo inefficient, others can reach the same level of sensor fusion and integrated performance with like a couple of hundred thousand lines of code. What do the damn americans know about advanced software projects, its not like they have a software industry anywhere close to russia's high standards..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Aug 2014 09:35

The word is "commissioning".Whether it will be IOC or FOC hasn't been spelt out,we'll have to wait and see.But yes,2020 is a more probable date for the aircraft to be in sqd. service fully combat capable. The USN is inducting its JSFs in 2019,so even though both aircraft have differing roles,it is going to be interesting to see them in service along with the Chinese stealth birds,expected to fly the coop around the same time.The last AWST report from MAKs,posted many moons ago had enough details about what to expect from the PAK-FA/T-50/FGFA.

There are some interesting debating points in this site,Pak-FA vs the F-22.Worth a dekko.
http://www.russiadefence.net/t2661-how- ... al-warfare

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 12 Aug 2014 12:08

why people even bother to feed this troll called rien ,atleast people like above, gives us nice wet dreams !

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Aug 2014 13:01

Philip wrote:The word is "commissioning".Whether it will be IOC or FOC hasn't been spelt out,we'll have to wait and see.But yes,2020 is a more probable date for the aircraft to be in sqd. service fully combat capable.

The word used by RT was 'deploy', though 'commission' would probably have been more apt. The definitive production standard prototype is still a year away from flight, no way it can IOC in 2016 (even 2018 would be overoptimistic).

The USN is inducting its JSFs in 2019,so even though both aircraft have differing roles,it is going to be interesting to see them in service along with the Chinese stealth birds,expected to fly the coop around the same time.

The USN has already inducted them. It'll declare them operational in 2019.

There are some interesting debating points in this site,Pak-FA vs the F-22.Worth a dekko.
http://www.russiadefence.net/t2661-how- ... al-warfare

Most of it is terribly misinformed if not downright speculative. Eg- PAK FA carrying 8 R-77s internally, FCR function for L-band antennas, hugely inflated IRST ranges etc.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Aug 2014 18:07

Induction and Operational usage are very different things. As mentioned by VIV, all three US services have "inducted" the F-35. Induction takes place when the ITT obligations are met and Serial production jets go off to front line squadrons. Multiple squadrons with the US Air force, multiple squadrons with the USMC and the USN are using operationally delivered jets at the moment.These are full representative jets with full stealth, full avionics suite.

The USN is inducting its JSFs in 2019,so even though both aircraft have differing roles,it is going to be interesting to see them in service along with the Chinese stealth birds,expected to fly the coop around the same time.

The F-35C will be "operational" by late 2018 or early 2019 but it is hardly the only version of the jet. The STOVL variant and the CTOL variant will declare operational status next year and the year following that. The Marines will begin to rotate their squadron to Japan starting early 2016 and the USAF will also be sending the first squadron to Alaska later in 2016. By the time the USN IOC more than a couple of hundred F-35A and B versions would be operationalized and be service in operational squadrons, many of which in Europe and Asia.

The word used by RT was 'deploy', though 'commission' would probably have been more apt. The definitive production standard prototype is still a year away from flight, no way it can IOC in 2016 (even 2018 would be overoptimistic)

What we are seeing in the air are prototypes. According the Austin who is generally very well informed, the real stealth especially in the rear aspect of the jet hasn't even been incorporated yet. Not on a flying aircraft, nor on a static bird that we all know. There has to be significant testing done when you actually have an external configuration that is frozen. Change the nozzle materials and you have to do considerable airborne testing of the engine, nozzle assembly. Similarly the avionics suite has to be completely transferred/ported onto the airframe and the aircraft has to accomplish all the checks and objectives. Then comes the engines on which we have first heard that they will fly in frontline pakfa's and now more recently have heard that the current upgraded 31's are good enough and all customers will be getting them with delivered jets. There is also the little thing of moving over to a factory production as opposed to prototype construction which doesn't really happen like serial production. Russians have been saying for quite some time that they will be inducting the jet in 2015-2016.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Aug 2014 18:13

well I do not think the first version of the pakfa will have 2D stealth nozzle, not when it loses 15% thrust and probably needs the new 5th gen engine to provide the extra cushion in dry thrust mode. the russians anyway have not been fans of 2D nozzle so might never put in on Pakfa. and neither has the JSF.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Aug 2014 18:13

Brar warrior, Can you take the JSF talk to another thread please? This one is dedicated to the PAKFA/FGFA.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Aug 2014 18:16

Karan M wrote:Brar warrior, Can you take the JSF talk to another thread please? This one is dedicated to the PAKFA/FGFA.

Noted. It was Phillp who brought something up that warranted a clarification. Back on topic.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Aug 2014 18:55

Thanks. We come to this thread for something specific on FGFA or its tech - but mostly its debates.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Aug 2014 06:53

Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India

Without the $5.5 billion? Nice!!

Moscow: Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) has completed the front-end engineering design of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) for India's Air Force, UAC president Mikhail Pogosyan said Friday.

The UAC is preparing the contract on the aircraft's full-scale development for signing, he told Arms-Tass.

"We have completed the front end engineering design stage," he said. "The work on the preparation of the contract on the FGFA full-scale development is now in progress," he added.

The FGFA development and production is a major project of Russian-Indian military-technical cooperation.

The two sides signed the corresponding agreement in Moscow in October 2007. In December 2010, Russia's Rosoboronexport arms exporter, Sukhoi company and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract on the aircraft's front end engineering design development.

Since January 2012, a group of India's specialists has been working in Russia, and Russia's specialists in India. The two sides have established the required information exchange.

FGFA is developed on the basis of the Russian PAK FA fifth-generation fighter project. However, it will differ from the prototype to meet Indian Air Force's specific requirements.

This does not sound right, something seems to be wrong somewhere, but it is from the horse himself.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Aug 2014 06:34

NRao wrote:
This does not sound right, something seems to be wrong somewhere, but it is from the horse himself.

Russia is under containment. It will see threat in its borders in the Eurasian region.

It still see India and China under is its sphere and makes sure that they are strong to resist any geo political changes.

Arming of India by Russia is still considered as critical to the defense of Russia.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Aug 2014 08:42

^Could that be the reason that bjp not worrying too much about thermo fizzle of '98? That like Arihant and Agni project we've had full russkie ToT on thermonukes too?

As against my hopes that NaMo would also test quickly like Vajpayee after taking over!

On the other hand chinees get helped from yanqis too, from w-87 warhead designs to DSI strakes tech they make it somehow super-easy for chinees to steal.
----------------------------------------------------

Question to Austin saar, has there been any report from what time IAF pilots will be allowed to start participating in test flights?

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 18 Aug 2014 12:32

NRao wrote:Russia prepares 5th-generation fighter for India

Without the $5.5 billion? Nice!!
This does not sound right, something seems to be wrong somewhere, but it is from the horse himself.

HAL and Sukhoi signed $295 million dollar preliminary design contract in 2010. Now the preliminary design phase is over we may soon get the news about the $11 Billion final development contract.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2014 21:05

Interview with Phazotron NIIR chief designer Yury Guskov

AESA radars growing smaller

The Russian corporation Phazotron NIIR is known for its advanced aircraft radars. On the eve of Farnborough International 2014, chief designer Yury Guskov told Russia & CIS Observer about the new technology his company is embracing.

— Phazotron NIIR has started developing aircraft radars with active electronically scanned array (AESA) based on 3D technology. What is the current status of this program?

— This work progresses successfully. We are building the first prototype. The transmitter-receiver (T/R) modules are supplied by Tomsk-based Research Institute of Semiconductor Devices, while we are responsible for the radar itself, its control and cooling systems. This year we expect to manufacture and begin testing three prototypes: checking all their systems, the scanning and beam-building functions, and the operation of all the T/R modules.

The new radar comprises three units: the new 3D phased arrays, the processing unit and the computing system.

— What capabilities will this new AESA radar have?

— The new units integrate the generation, reception and processing of radar signals to detect aerial targets in the forward and aft hemisphere, their maneuvers and coordinates and, if needed, to support their engagement with air-to-air weaponry.

The air-to-surface mode is becoming increasingly more popular in aviation. Previously, everyone was quite happy with a mapping resolution of 5x5 to 3x3 meters. Now the resolution has to be at least 1x1 meters. Our new radar will offer a resolution of 0.5x0.5 meters. This is very close to microwave imaging, meaning that the radar image is very close to our visual perception. All objects are very clear.

If one or two T/R modules out of the thousand go unserviceable this will not affect the directional pattern of the AESA antenna as a whole. However, many customers ask us to keep the quick repair function they loved so much [about the Zhuk-AE antenna – editor]. We will have to make an extra effort for this but the modules will continue to be easily replaceable in the field. The only difference is that each module will now take 30 minutes to replace instead of 15 minutes as it was with the previous generation of our AESA radars.

— What platforms is the new radar intended for?

— Switching over to 3D is of course the way to go. We are developing such radar for the long-range Altair UAV, which is being developed by Kazan-based Simonov Design Bureau [formerly Sokol Design Bureau – editor] for the Russian Armed Forces under the Altius program. The radar is based on the same technology; it will have side antennas and one forward-looking antenna.

The Altius program has completed the research phase; the development phase will begin in 2015. We should have bench-tested our radar by then, after which we will install it on Simonov’s prototype for flight testing.
The same aircraft will carry our other radar, which is currently under development. This will be a decimeter-band radar (70 cm or 100 cm wavelength). It will be able to see through dense foliage and will be used for purely intelligence purposes.

— Can new 3D AESA radars appear on manned platforms, including the new Russian fifth-generation fighter?

— We do have certain plans. We are running an advertising campaign to get foreign customers interested, while simultaneously working with the Russian market. A front-line fighter absolutely must have an AESA radar. A mechanically-scanned radar can do a lot of things, but an AESA has a number of advantages, first of all in terms of its reliability, which is four to five times higher. An AESA is an absolute must for a fifth-generation fighter.

Back in 2010 we embraced the AESA technology in its entirety: the emitter, the T/R modules, the command system and the power sources. We did well to start with a very specific AESA configuration for the MiG-35 fighter. The same technology applies to the 3D T/R modules. Their design may be different but the technology is the same: you have the emitter, the T/R modules and the command unit. Switching over to the 3D technology also allows us to scale down the radar in terms of its size and weight. Everything becomes smaller and better integrated. A radar for the MiG-29 fighter weighed around 300 kg in the 1980s. A decade later, radars weighed 220 kg. Our new model will weigh some 130 kg.

Therefore, frankly speaking, I am proud that we at Phazotron NIIR were the first in Russia to develop an AESA radar. I am also glad that, rather than stopping at that, we began to work with the 3D technology.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2014 21:27

Dhananjay wrote:^Could that be the reason that bjp not worrying too much about thermo fizzle of '98? That like Arihant and Agni project we've had full russkie ToT on thermonukes too?

FWIW , A known guru of BRF that I dont want to name told me that a month before TN explosion they took the design to Russia VNIIEF for proof/validation the result was it wont work ...the rest is history

Question to Austin saar, has there been any report from what time IAF pilots will be allowed to start participating in test flights?

HAL Chief mentioned that two prototype will be sent to India and will be flown by Indian TP , the interview should be somewhere in this thread.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 18 Aug 2014 22:58

Dailybhaskar.com | Aug 16, 2014, 18:43PM IST wrote: The Indian model will bear slight difference from its Russian counterpart based upon the needs of Indian Air Force.

FGFA was the earlier designation for the Indian version, while the combined project is now called the Perspective Multi-Role Fighter (PMF).

Two separate prototypes will be developed, one by Russia and a separate one by India.

According to erstwhile HAL chairman A.K. Baweja (speaking shortly after the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Committee meeting on 18 September 2008), both the Russian and Indian versions of the aircraft will be single-seater. The first aircraft is to begin testing in India in 2014 , with introduction into service expected by 2022.

The K-77M air-to-air missile will combine fire-and-forget guidance and single-shot-kill that will triumph over any evasive manoeuvres by the target.

"The major innovation of the K-77M air-to-air missile is its guidance system, based on an active phased array antenna (APAA) of its own, Izvestia daily reports. With APAA onboard, the missile has zero reaction time to unexpected evolutions of the target, which means that once it locks on an aircraft, it would hit it no matter what aerial acrobatics the target would perform to shake off the inbound killer missile," quoted Russia Today.

Development of Sukhoi FGFA on course, full-scale development contract being drafted

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Aug 2014 04:16

^^^^^^

The author has patched together 4/5 previous articles.

Frankly, the situation does not look as good as it should or some of these recent articles intend to portray. I hope they at least reduce the rafale and provide some funds for the FGFA. But .........

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 Aug 2014 05:25

svinayak wrote:
NRao wrote:
This does not sound right, something seems to be wrong somewhere, but it is from the horse himself.
Russia is under containment. It will see threat in its borders in the Eurasian region.

It still see India and China under is its sphere and makes sure that they are strong to resist any geo political changes.

Arming of India by Russia is still considered as critical to the defense of Russia.

Of course and at our expense to protect them

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 21 Aug 2014 17:32

Found these pic's , looks like a cross bread of PAK-FA & Mig 1.44

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Aug 2014 20:38

^^ Thats a crica 2005 proposal by Mig for a follow on interceptor to replace Mig-31.

Looking at the heavy 6 wheel undercarriage this looks like Mig-31 type 45 T class aircraft , And indeed its based on Mig earlier Mig-1.44 design , S-Duct intake clearly seen.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 21 Aug 2014 21:25

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 21 Aug 2014 22:36

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well the image is without doubt fantastic but this is one JV where there is not much info in the open. Recently there was news of some design work for FGFA, but nothing tangible about when the agreement will be signed , what the final FGFA config be , when the first proto rollout, timeframe for the availability for test in India and finally production variant rollout.
Too many things still in the air and it is end of 2014. Any concrete info please.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 21 Aug 2014 22:54

I hope when we see such a pic of AMCA then AMCA too has long lines like this PAK FA and not a short stubby phat unmanueverable flying hippopatamus that jsf is!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Aug 2014 07:51

Is this a poss. config. of the MIG-31 successor which the Russians are to develop? Itlooks very appetising.What about the new strategic stealth bomber,the PAK-DA?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 31 Aug 2014 18:22

T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence

...
New Delhi is particularly miffed with the fact that despite being an equal partner in the FGFA project in terms of financial contribution, Moscow is not keen to share technical details about its next generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, on which the Indian version of the combat jet will be based.

...
But much to the surprise of an Indian team present at the site, they were not allowed anywhere near the aircraft. India wanted to know the reasons for the fire but details were never shared, said sources. India has paid $295 million (Rs.1,785.19 crore) for the preliminary design, which was finalised last year, and it is only logical that Indian officials feel concerned about the status of the PAK-FA programme. The Indian side was not satisfied with the preliminary design and raised questions about maintenance issues, the engine, stealth features, weapon carriage system, safety and reliability. Sources said there could not be any progress until these issues were resolved.

But the queries remain unanswered even after a round of discussions between the two sides this month. The Russian side's common response to New Delhi's concerns has been: "Don't get emotional." Any further push on these issues results in talk of price escalation, sources said. For instance, the Indian Air Force had made it clear last year that it was not satisfied with the engine of the new fighter, which was based on the power plant for the Sukhoi-30. A change has been promised at an additional cost.

No Indian expert or pilot has had a long hard look at the PAK-FA jet to date. The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 01 Sep 2014 04:12

abhik wrote:T-50 PAK-FA fighter jet project with Russia hits turbulence
...
New Delhi is particularly miffed with the fact that despite being an equal partner in the FGFA project in terms of financial contribution, Moscow is not keen to share technical details about its next generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, on which the Indian version of the combat jet will be based.

...
But much to the surprise of an Indian team present at the site, they were not allowed anywhere near the aircraft. India wanted to know the reasons for the fire but details were never shared, said sources. India has paid $295 million (Rs.1,785.19 crore) for the preliminary design, which was finalised last year, and it is only logical that Indian officials feel concerned about the status of the PAK-FA programme. The Indian side was not satisfied with the preliminary design and raised questions about maintenance issues, the engine, stealth features, weapon carriage system, safety and reliability. Sources said there could not be any progress until these issues were resolved.

But the queries remain unanswered even after a round of discussions between the two sides this month. The Russian side's common response to New Delhi's concerns has been: "Don't get emotional." Any further push on these issues results in talk of price escalation, sources said. For instance, the Indian Air Force had made it clear last year that it was not satisfied with the engine of the new fighter, which was based on the power plant for the Sukhoi-30. A change has been promised at an additional cost.

No Indian expert or pilot has had a long hard look at the PAK-FA jet to date. The Russians are not allowing Indian pilots to fly the aircraft, claiming foreign pilots are barred from flying in their airspace.

This should not come as any suprise. No way are the ruskies going to give away anything so critical for only a few hundred million dollars. Actually India never was a partner, it was always a purchaser.

Only way for India is to for example partner with the sweeds and purchase the gripen, but on condition they built a stealth fighter in India.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Sep 2014 05:15

this nightmare is probably only beginning

some of us have been very nervous about this project

With the Russies needing the Chinese more andmore with the way things are going - who knows what other things will be halted

lets hope Russia sees sense at some point

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Sep 2014 06:06

My read:

* Each Air Force has their own definition of what a "5th Gen" plane is and I am betting that while the PAK-FA will meet and perhaps even beat a F-22 in certain aspects, it is a dud in others (just an observation - JAO).
* I am betting that the IAF leans a*lot* more towards what the USAF has deployed - so the expectations are sky high, something I think/feel that the Russians cannot meet
* Swedes (or others) as an alternative - nyet. Ref #1 above. They will meet/beat some, but will be duds in other areas
* So, what is a "5th Gen" plane? IMHO, surfing the net, here is my very, very high level def: A mathematical model that flies - it is the "math" that makes this plane as close to "invisible" as possible - (there is nothing called invisibility in a stealth plane). RAM, angles of this and angle of that, hiding the face of an engine, S ducts, agility(!!! - what purpose that serves is beyond me - but anyways), etc, etc, etc, are all OK, but are all side orders - important, but not as the "math" part of it. The 5th Gen plane is akin to the FBW era, this is the math era. Again IMHO. BTW there are plenty of papers out there explaining detains, so people can google and find them.

In addition a "5th Gen" includes high level of design capability (due to math), sensors-sensors-sensors, data fusion, supply chain, MRO, pretty close to everything automated, predictive analytic and the like.

How each is defined is teh clue. All can and will claim they have it - and they do. Q: How does the IAF define it and want. That will force whom India can partner with, IF she does decide to do so.

* I am betting that the PAK-FA is an extension of the Su-3X series and not a "true" "5th gen" plane

* On the engine - said that long back. The Russian engine for the PAK-FA was supposed to be out in 2019/20. It is my opinion that the Indians funded it and was/is a relative flop (there is still time). (As an extension my feel is that the Russian engine division is falling behind badly)

* Said this before, India needs to bail out of this effort. Where to go? Do not know. But, I can say this with guarded confidence: This "5th Gen" is not an easy task, especially if one wants to emulate what the US has done. The AMCA - per that interview is planned to be a 5+ Gen - have no clue what that means, but it will be a daunting task. But India, IMHO, should chase it on her own ................... it will take time and plenty of failures, but that is fine

I Think the Russians have fallen too far behind.

* As far as finances - said this too, the Russians are depending on India (and China too actually) to fund these things. The IL-476, they would have loved for India to buy their troop carrier, etc.

?????