PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Dec 2014 05:47

India-Russia talks on to finalise copter deal

On the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft of which there was no mention in the recent joint statement, embassy officials have said negotiations to sort out the work share are going on and an agreement is likely as early as January.

Russian officials said that Russia is open for equal work share but stated that “Russia has problems with the Indian demand. If India has the ability to provide certain design knowhow and technologies we are open for equal work. But this may not be so as seen with the case of Light Combat Program (LCA) and the aircraft under development is a Fifth Generation program.”

...............................

Russian officials felt that, for advanced defence equipment, India and Russia should reach a governmental agreement under the Inter-Governmental framework on similar lines that India has with the US.

Data points:
* The US, under DTTI, has permitted Indians access to "stealth"
* A recent twitter informed us that the AMCA model was sent to the US for wind tunnel tests.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Dec 2014 21:44

Interesting article.

Dec 22, 2014 :: New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

Leaving out the normal riff-Raff.

But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

“In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.

Why even build out the FGFA in that case? Why not come to an agreement on this 6th Gen plane? Even if it is delayed by a few years?

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 25 Dec 2014 22:19

NRao wrote:Interesting article.

Dec 22, 2014 :: New Russian Stealth Jet Fighter Called ‘Super Weapon’ Giving Russia Edge Over U.S. In Skies

Leaving out the normal riff-Raff.

But the U.S. fighters still hold one advantage — data technology. The U.S. fighter jets still have better “sensor and data fusion,” in other words, technology for processing information about the jet fighter’s surroundings and feeding it to the pilot in a way that lets him make quick decisions.

“In the future — while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important — [planes require] speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability,” Deptula said. “Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary.”

The Russians, however, are already at work on their sixth-generation jet fighters, which could solve the data problems and are scheduled to be ready for action by 2025.
Why even build out the FGFA in that case? Why not come to an agreement on this 6th Gen plane? Even if it is delayed by a few years?

Because the IAF might end up waiting for 20 years given the inevitable delays of building new generation fighters.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 25 Dec 2014 22:57

mahadevbhu wrote:

...seems that the t 5o is another rafale in cost.

the f 35 seems more attractive by the day. GoI are you listening?

On port 8080 yes

T50 is not here, F-35 is.

After the HAL/Dassault rift, I bet you HAL is going to lobby for the F-35 because it thinks it will get the whole thing.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Dec 2014 23:14

HAL would rather push for the T-50. They already have the MKI to go on.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Dec 2014 23:51

Spending multiple billion dollars on a fighter program without even knowing how much the ruskies are going to charge us for the fighters is akin to gift wrapping our testimonials and placing them in the russkies palms. HAL isn't gonna get much of the initial investment in R&D either (Their resources should anyway is better spent in being involved in the AMCA project from day 1). If it has to be an import then might as well wait for a few more years for the PAK-FA to mature and have a competition with the F-35.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Dec 2014 12:59

New Ground Test Prototype T-2.6.50 delivered at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1114195.html

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 30 Dec 2014 17:31

abhik wrote:Spending multiple billion dollars on a fighter program without even knowing how much the ruskies are going to charge us for the fighters is akin to gift wrapping our testimonials and placing them in the russkies palms. HA ...

Yes but they are Russians and we have an eternal debt we owe them.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Dec 2014 17:57

Are we getting any IP rights on the developed products??? We do not know.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 30 Dec 2014 22:34

Experience with PAK-FA/FGFA will be as good as Su-30MKI experience at minimum. Going by that, we will be able to add to it the way we want. We can have FGFA/PAK-FA modified as per our own conditions without having to fight wars as Indian terrain is quite big and varied enough.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jan 2015 10:12

Seems like we would be getting twin seat FGFA

Russia, India Complete Draft Project for Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft

MOSCOW, January 10 (Sputnik) — Russia and India have completed the preliminary design for the Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the regional director of international cooperation at the united Russian-Indian aircraft manufacturing company said Saturday.

“As of now, we and our Indian colleagues have completed the creation of the export version of the [Sukhoi] PAK FA, known in India as FGFA. We already have documents and understanding of the scope of the next phase of design, the scale of future production,” Andrey Marshankin said in an interview with the Russian News Service radio.

Marshankin noted that while the Russian version of the fifth generation fighter jet is operated by a single pilot, the Indian Air Force prefers aircraft that are operated by two pilots.

“In difficult conditions of modern warfare it is extremely difficult to simultaneously maneuver [the aircraft] and attack the enemy. Currently, the Indian side suggests that the Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will be made for two pilots,” he said.

The Sukhoi PAK FA (T-50) is the Russian Air Force’s first stealth fighter, intended to succeed the Sukhoi Su-27, as well as the Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jets. The aircraft conducted its first test flight in 2010 and deliveries are set to begin in 2016. The FGFA, developed jointly by Russia’s Sukhoi and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is a derivative from the PAK FA.

kit · Post by **kit** » 11 Jan 2015 14:28

i thought AI would do the job of the second pilot in a 5th generation fighter ..so is it a given that the PAK FA would not have comparable sophistication of a F22

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 11 Jan 2015 20:44

kit wrote:i thought AI would do the job of the second pilot in a 5th generation fighter ..so is it a given that the PAK FA would not have comparable sophistication of a F22

No, this has to do with the IAF's preference for 2 pilots. The avionics of the Su-35 and the Su-30 MKI are similar. However, the Su-35 (Russia) has 1 pilot; the Su-30 MKI (India) has 2.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 11 Jan 2015 20:48

Does anyone know how Russia plans to replace the Su-34? The PAK-FA is designed to replace the Su-27/30/35 ... Will it also replace the Su-34?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Jan 2015 20:55

abhik wrote:Spending multiple billion dollars on a fighter program without even knowing how much the ruskies are going to charge us for the fighters is akin to gift wrapping our testimonials and placing them in the russkies palms. HAL isn't gonna get much of the initial investment in R&D either (Their resources should anyway is better spent in being involved in the AMCA project from day 1). If it has to be an import then might as well wait for a few more years for the PAK-FA to mature and have a competition with the F-35.

The F-35/JSF is a grossly inadequate program for what the IAF requires from an advanced procurement program from both a technology transfer perspective and a in-house production perspective. Though a very capable weapons system for the purpose for which it is designed, the entire success of the JSF program is dependent upon having a level of mutual trust between the US and its customers whereby tech transfer is limited and that both parties trust each other when it comes to servicing, upgrading etc. Its great for the RAF, RAAF, Japan, Netherlands etc that have deep ties with the USAF and would be perfectly ok in delegating much of the advanced work on the aircraft to them, or to designated depots around the world. This is fine for them primarily because of a common threat and force structure (NATO) but also because a lot of these nations cannot financially afford to have a fully indigenous capability to maintain and support 100% a fifth generation enterprise. This is obviously not fine for the IAF, that expects to have full control of its advanced technology acquisitions because of flexibility, decreasing the threat of sanctions and because it has the ability and financial strength and the political capital to actually support advanced programs. Similarly, neither the OEM or the team nor the main customer in the Pentagon would be willing to part ways with technology for the F-35 to the extent that even the MRCA was seeking. The entire reason they have allowed export of high end technology to F-35 customers is because there is little transfer and that these customers have agreed to pool logistical resources and work out a sustainment plan that is joint and developed by the Joint Program Office. A nation that would want the F-35 as a stand alone project, with no participation in the JPO would have to overcome entrenched resistance from the Pentagon and the bureaucracy at large and most likely the political class as well. Neither the Pentagon, nor the MOD is prepared or capable to overcome those challenges in a joint way. Therefore the F-35 is not, at least for the next decade if not more going to be a serious proposal for the IAF. This leaves just two 5th generation programs, one the FGFA and the other the AMCA and therefore there is absolutely no credibility in using the "F-35" stick to gain some leverage on the PAKFA/FGFA because the Russians are most likely very aware of these things as well. Therefore it is in the IAF's best interest to work closely with the Russians, with whom they have had a long standing relations and settle the differences and firm up FGFA plans as quickly as possible.

Will it also replace the Su-34?

I see no reason it cannot.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Jan 2015 23:13

Brar_w, two issues with that -

1. Industrial Aspect: The PAK FA as a program has proceeded too far for us to get any significant design input that we could feed into the AMCA program. As far as the ToT angle goes, our 60 years experience with it is testament to its utility. Also, ToT is not something that we're getting bundled with the FGFA, we're paying extra for the privilege. If the objective is to advance the capabilities of the domestic industry, we're much better off directly investing in a domestic program, case-in-point: LCA.

2. Capabilities: The definitively variant of the PAK FA will arrive only by 2022-23, which means it'll be operational with the IAF only after 2025 and in strength only by 2030. In interim variant on the other hand simply doesn't have the pedigree when it comes to its sensor fit and reliability that its peers do. The Russians still haven't fielded their first operational fighter AESA; the MiG-29K employs a MSA and the Su-30/34/35 still use PESAs. The Indian Su-30MKI will continue to field a domestic EW kit (in lieu of a Russian one), even after the Super Sukhoi upgrade. Its capability in terms of SEAD, electronic attack, precision strike, and as an ISR asset is, to use a mild word, uninspiring. Its built to the RuAF's req. (for whom deep penetration isn't a pressing concern) and relies on a brute force approach which works when you have numerical superiority... which we wouldn't have against China, and sure as hell wouldn't have in the event of a two-front war.

One solution could be to acquire two fifth gen types joined by the AMCA in the 2030-35 period, but that's not feasible if the Rafale deal (which again costs nearly as much as a 5th gen aircraft) is sanctioned. That should also provide a 5th gen solution for the IN's STOBAR carriers.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 12 Jan 2015 00:08

^^ Just adding that Japan and Korea have\are developed their stealth jets leveraging F35 partnerships.

Our aviation industry is much more capable given the variety of planes we build or service and recent LCA experience. But the 'AMCA kid' is not ready to stand on his own feet, as decided by Grandpa IAF. Question is why reach out to toddler PAKFA instead of daddy F35 for hand holding?

Opinion- We are tied to Russians because we do not want PAKFA in Chinese hands. Reality is that China only wants engines from Russians and they will get it one way or another like they are doing currently for Al-31 and RD-93. Pity that we funded these programs through our voracious appetite for imports Mig-29 and MKI's. History repeats itself.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Jan 2015 00:20

^^ Just adding that Japan and Korea have\are developed their stealth jets leveraging F35 partnerships.

That is/was through an offset clause. That clause can exist in any deal for any fighter if one were to include it as a pre-requisite which they did. The South Koreans for example wanted 2 billion dollars from Lockheed, which Lockheed would pay in the form of 5th generation technologies and testing-data as an offset to the F-35 deal. They also got a satellite (details of the offset deal have been posted by me in the JSF thread). Japan got a similar deal. Had the Eurofighter consortium won that competition, they would have also had to part with technology that could be applicable for their indigenous effort (south Korea) for a 5th generation fighter.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jan 2015 00:27

kit wrote:i thought AI would do the job of the second pilot in a 5th generation fighter ..so is it a given that the PAK FA would not have comparable sophistication of a F22

It depends and on what is meant by "second pilot". And, that depends on each AF - based on which a plane is designed.

WRT India and the "FGFA", this aspect has never changed (tho' some would have us believe us differently) - which is what is causing this delay. The "FGFA" was never meant to be an MKI of the PAK-FA. It was always meant to be a 2-pilot, bigger/different wing, etc, leading to a re-design, which-is-why-we-are-paying-$6-billion plane.

The PAK FA as a program has proceeded too far for us to get any significant design input that we could feed into the AMCA program.

While that is very true, the "FGFA" (2-pilot, bigger wing, etc) is not even on the drawing board. The question - I am betting - is how much design knowledge will the Russians part with - within the time Indians have on hand. This is not just about tech and funds, there is a time component that is equally important.

The F-35/JSF is a grossly inadequate program for what the IAF requires from an advanced procurement program from both a technology transfer perspective ..................

My read is that, for one, India is looking to get help from any corner as long as what help they get fills a need - and it is not a zero sum game when it comes to the source of the help. Second, the US has signed up for two things: first provide help with techs and second that the help would be non-intrusive (it is there in open source if people want to read up). I would suggest we wait till the end of Feb (not what is signed during the Obama trip) to see what is requested under DTTI.

We have recently heard about the AMCA in the US - for testing. There was a recent report on another component - a very specific one - for a stealth plane. We just need official confirmation for these items. But, one thing is clear, neither one nation nor one project (FGFA as an example) will not be able to provide most of what India needs.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 12 Jan 2015 00:38

brar_w ji, is USA offering the Japanese and Koreans the same tech knowhow or different tech knowhow with specific offers for different countries? It is probably similar to nik ji's comment on parts of FGFA reaching the Chinese!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Jan 2015 00:46

vishvak wrote:brar_w ji, is USA offering the Japanese and Koreans the same tech knowhow or different tech knowhow with specific offers for different countries? It is probably similar to nik ji's comment on parts of FGFA reaching the Chinese!

There was no public disclosure of exactly what was asked in the technology transfer deal apart from the mention that whatever was asked would obviously have to be cleared with the Pentagon. The Koreans knew this therefore at the time of crafting the requirements they kept that in mind (both for Boeing's offering and Lockheed's). One thing that was disclosed was testing (mostly tunnel and prototype flight) data on 5th generation aircraft (one would assume that it pertained to the F-22 and F-35 programs and activities in relations to those program). As for other technologies such as materials, avionics, cooling etc it was then negotiated outside of the public light with both the vendor (Lockheed) and the pentagon hence the delay in selecting the JSF for ROKAF's program requirement and finally signing the deal last year. The total value of technology that Lockheed sold was around 2 billion, with rest of the offset going towards helping them with satellites, with the remaining obligation going towards local production of F-35 components. Both the Japanese and the South Korean programs are being built around different indigenous strengths. Japan for example has already decided that they would use an indigenous engine while the ROKAF is going to be dependent on either the Eurojet X or the F-114 EPE. Other goals from a capability are also likely to differ dependent upon how comfortable each country is with its ability to deliver on advanced concepts. Japan has a test bed out that should fly in a few months while the Koreans are only getting started. Keep in mind that the Koreans are jointly developing the fighter with Indonesia.

While I fully expect South Korea to follow through and develop an indigenous platform, Japan could still possibly decide not to , if it decides to jump on one of the US programs that would also be starting around 2018 (the year Japan takes a call on a full fledged program).

South Korea and Japan Offset deals ( Source : Jane's Defence Industry, Briefing: South Korea negotiates F-35 offset package, 2014-04-04 SUBSCRIPTION)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6203&start=1840#p1771686

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Jan 2015 20:05

Something new on Janes:

http://www.janes.com/article/47803/russ ... fa-fighter

Russian and Indian officials have agreed the preliminary design for the Sukhoi/Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), Russian state media reported on 10 January.

Design of the export variant of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA combat aircraft has now been completed, the Sputnik news agency quoted Andrey Marshankin, the regional director of international cooperation at the united Russian-Indian aircraft manufacturing company, as saying.

As noted by Marshankin, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is still pressing for the FGFA (also now referred to as the Prospective Multi-Role Fighter [PMF] by India) to be a twin-seat jet, instead of the single-seat layout of the PAK-FA. "Currently, the Indian side suggests that the Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will be made for two pilots," he reportedly said, although he does not clarify if this twin-seat configuration has made it into the preliminary design of the FGFA.

It had been thought that the IAF would drop its requirement for a twin-seat cockpit in light of Russia's demands that the Indian government pay the USD1 billion bill for development and extended timelines. Indeed, models of the aircraft displayed at the Aero India Airshow in 2013 showed the FGFA in a single-seat configuration only.

The IAF plans to field between 130 and 145 (down from an original 220) FGFA aircraft, with production expected to commence in about 2020.
COMMENT

The FGFA/PMF is one of two major joint aircraft projects currently under way between Russia and India, with the other being the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA). Both programmes have suffered significant delays and cost overruns as requirements have shifted and technical problems have had to be overcome.

In late 2014 it was reported that the IAF had expressed particular concerns to Russia over technical problems and delays that were affecting the USD10.5 billion FGFA/PMF programme. Given the state-of-the-art technology that will go into the FGFA/PMF, delays to that programme have the potential to have far more serious knock-on effects to the development and production timelines when compared to the comparatively basic MTA.

As such, news that Russia and India have now completed their preliminary design of the FGFA/PMF and can now move on to the detailed design phase will have come as a huge relief to both parties.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Jan 2015 00:08

As long as the IAF/MOD is willing to pick up the tab, and deal with performance penalty (particularly in range and/or weight) there is really nothing dramatic in developing a 2-seat variant if this is what the customer wants given that the MOD is expected to contribute around 5 Billion dollar in the System's development phase of the program.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Jan 2015 01:09

And RCS.

The trade-off also needs to factor in the MMI and sensor fusion. The better it is, the less the incentive is for a two seat variant.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jan 2015 01:21

deejay wrote:Something new on Janes:

deejay ji,

As far as I can see nothing new, old news repackaged (execpt for one bit of news).

Russian and Indian officials have agreed the preliminary design for the Sukhoi/Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), Russian state media reported on 10 January.

This, I bet, is the first agreement, where India contributed $395 million. That got over in 2011 or so. (See the very last quote from this article below.)

Design of the export variant of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA combat aircraft has now been completed, the Sputnik news agency quoted Andrey Marshankin, the regional director of international cooperation at the united Russian-Indian aircraft manufacturing company, as saying.

No idea what he means by "export variant". I suspect he is saying that the details between Russia and India have been sorted out - meaning could have been lost in the translation? The design for the FGFA, see next quote, has not even started.

As noted by Marshankin, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is still pressing for the FGFA (also now referred to as the Prospective Multi-Role Fighter [PMF] by India) to be a twin-seat jet, instead of the single-seat layout of the PAK-FA. "Currently, the Indian side suggests that the Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will be made for two pilots," he reportedly said, although he does not clarify if this twin-seat configuration has made it into the preliminary design of the FGFA.

IAF/Indians have been asking for a dual seater from day one. Open source articles from Russia were the ones that talked about Indians agreeing to use the single seater - Indian sources (there have been very few compared to Russian sources) have never wavered from the 2 seater.

Also, Indians have always referred to the plane as "FGFA" and never "PMF", "PMF" has been in the Russian press. I always thought they wanted the "PMF" to be a single seater version for the IAF.

It had been thought that the IAF would drop its requirement for a twin-seat cockpit in light of Russia's demands that the Indian government pay the USD1 billion bill for development and extended timelines. Indeed, models of the aircraft displayed at the Aero India Airshow in 2013 showed the FGFA in a single-seat configuration only.

This - extra $1 billion - is news to me.

The IAF plans to field between 130 and 145 (down from an original 220) FGFA aircraft, with production expected to commence in about 2020.

Only due to cost factors. IF the cost goes down the IAF would like to get their 220(or was it 256?).

As such, news that Russia and India have now completed their preliminary design of the FGFA/PMF and can now move on to the detailed design phase will have come as a huge relief to both parties.

Does not say much at this point. Just seems to say that they are close to ironing out the diffs that has plagued this project for the past few years. Per original plans they should have started building the first FGFA by now.

-------------------------------------------

there is really nothing dramatic in developing a 2-seat variant

IIRC - the first few pages of this thread should have it - the 2 seater FGFA was expected to be dramatically different - with a much larger, re-designed wing, etc. It was different enough to plunk down the extra funds + provide indians with knowledge transfer in teh design of a "5th Gen" plane (something that most felt India had missed by not signing on in the early phase of the PAK-FA design).

In addition, India wanted a different (5th Gen?) engine and of course a good number of other changes it brought to the table.

The FGFA was to be considered to be a derivative of the PAK-FA and not an upgrade.

sensor fusion

A recent Russian article stated that the PAK-FA was deficient in network centricity as compared to the US planes. I would thin the FGFA would need to revisit this aspect.

My sense is that the Indians would like to delink the two projects as much as possible. Outside of depending on the Russians for some "parts" there should be a total separation in all other aspects.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Jan 2015 02:16

Viv S wrote:And RCS.

The trade-off also needs to factor in the MMI and sensor fusion. The better it is, the less the incentive is for a two seat variant.

You could maintain and meet stringent RCS requirements if you paid enough design effort on the two-seater. Only way you would have to take an RCS hit is if you followed the lowest cost_lowest technical risk path to designing a 2-seater.

As far as MMI and sensor fusion it is a "cultural" thing and if the leadership so wants then this is not a very hard challenge to deliver. In the USAF, that has had a prior experience in gradually introducing advanced 4th gen, 4.5 gen and 5th generation sensor-fusion there has been no need expressed to use a 2-seater variant to replace any of the SEAD, DEAD, CAS and air-dominance role. However there has been other roles envisioned for the TACAF programs such as stand-off jamming and UAV swarm management for which there have been 2-seater versions proposed and would be required even with the sensor fusion because its a full time tactical management thing.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Jan 2015 10:31

NRao wrote:...

As far as I can see nothing new, old news repackaged (execpt for one bit of news).

Design of the export variant of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA combat aircraft has now been completed, the Sputnik news agency quoted Andrey Marshankin, the regional director of international cooperation at the united Russian-Indian aircraft manufacturing company, as saying.
No idea what he means by "export variant". I suspect he is saying that the details between Russia and India have been sorted out - meaning could have been lost in the translation? The design for the FGFA, see next quote, has not even started.

As noted by Marshankin, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is still pressing for the FGFA (also now referred to as the Prospective Multi-Role Fighter [PMF] by India) to be a twin-seat jet, instead of the single-seat layout of the PAK-FA. "Currently, the Indian side suggests that the Indian version of the fifth generation fighter will be made for two pilots," he reportedly said, although he does not clarify if this twin-seat configuration has made it into the preliminary design of the FGFA.
IAF/Indians have been asking for a dual seater from day one. Open source articles from Russia were the ones that talked about Indians agreeing to use the single seater - Indian sources (there have been very few compared to Russian sources) have never wavered from the 2 seater.

Also, Indians have always referred to the plane as "FGFA" and never "PMF", "PMF" has been in the Russian press. I always thought they wanted the "PMF" to be a single seater version for the IAF.

It had been thought that the IAF would drop its requirement for a twin-seat cockpit in light of Russia's demands that the Indian government pay the USD1 billion bill for development and extended timelines. Indeed, models of the aircraft displayed at the Aero India Airshow in 2013 showed the FGFA in a single-seat configuration only.
This - extra $1 billion - is news to me.

The IAF plans to field between 130 and 145 (down from an original 220) FGFA aircraft, with production expected to commence in about 2020.
Only due to cost factors. IF the cost goes down the IAF would like to get their 220(or was it 256?).

As such, news that Russia and India have now completed their preliminary design of the FGFA/PMF and can now move on to the detailed design phase will have come as a huge relief to both parties.
Does not say much at this point. Just seems to say that they are close to ironing out the diffs that has plagued this project for the past few years. Per original plans they should have started building the first FGFA by now...

NRao ji, appreciate the detailed analysis. When I read the news, even I was trying to figure what was new here except the statement that preliminary design for FGFA is ready. So I said 'something' new.

My take is that the preliminary design as a twin seat version is not ready but the version that Russians want to export is ready.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jan 2015 22:47

deejay wrote: My take is that the preliminary design as a twin seat version is not ready but the version that Russians want to export is ready.

that would mean a) PAK-FA, b) FGFA (for India) and c) an export version of the PAK-FA?

If true, then more power to the Russians. That is an achievement for sure.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 14 Jan 2015 23:06

Does it mean PAKFA in Chinese colors. Is their any acknowledgement that technology (Radar, RAM and all) will not be shared with China since India is investing? Don't want to see repeat of MKI and MKK/Su-35 story.

Achievement for Russia is 100% correct - to sell to both sides of confrontation.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 15 Jan 2015 02:46

Quid pro quo is they won't give PAK-FA to china since we have paid hard cash for it. That would be the end of Indo-Russian coop. I already don't like the implied threat that they would give it to china if we didn't pay up.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jan 2015 03:30

* deejay was guessing. The Russians - my read - are struggling to get their own plane inducted. And times are bound to get a lot more challenging

* I would be more worried about leakage to Pakis than China. China I would think is on par - outside of an engine - when it comes to "5th Gen" technologies. It is the Pakis (and other nations) that can provide some funding

* The FGFA has got to be better than the PAK-FA (as we know it). One of my reads would be based on what the Indians ask of the US. Already there is chatter of the AMCA being modeled in the US. IF India leans on the US for an engine and a few stealth techs, then we should have a good read on what was absent in the FGFA deal

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Jan 2015 04:19

"United Aircraft Corporation" consider early termination of powers Pogosyan

Moscow. January 13. INTERFAX.RU - The Board of Directors of JSC "United Aircraft Corporation" at the meeting of January 16 will consider early termination of powers of the president of the company Mikhail Pogosyan, said the KLA.

"The decision to convene the board of directors was made by the shareholders of the corporation", - said "Interfax" a representative of the company, and the question about the reasons for convening it forwarded to the government.

Also at the meeting will focus on the election of the new president of the KLA, the Conditions and the contract with the President, as well as consent to a president and chairman of the board positions "in the management bodies of other organizations."

Pogosyan became president of the KLA in February 2011.

In late December, the media reported that Pogosyan wrote in his resignation. However, this information was called KLA fiction, emphasizing that it is not true.

"United Aircraft Corporation" was founded February 20, 2006. The property of the Russian Federation is 84.33% of the shares. The corporation, in particular, includes JSC "Company" Sukhoi ", JSC" Corporation "Irkut", JSC "UAC-Transport Aircraft", JSC "IL", JSC "Nizhny Novgorod Aircraft Building Plant" Sokol ", JSC" Tupolev "JSC "Aviastar-SP", JSC "VASO", JSC "RAC" MiG ".

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jan 2015 04:53

^^^^^

Not surprised.

On Russian economy, NPR just reported that the proposal is to reduce the budget by 10%, defense expenditure is an exception, they propose to retain it.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 15 Jan 2015 08:01

FGFA design below if not posted earlier

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Jan 2015 08:22

^^^^^^

That is a painting from paralay from 2011 (or earlier). (http://paralay.com/fgfa.html).

The two nations were just about completing their first round agreement then.

The above png original is from:

http://paralay.com/fgfa/52_01.png

You can also find more on this "Su52" here:

http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/bbs/view.h ... &num=53955

Just BTW, if this current deal goes through, it is expected to product the design of the FGFA.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Jan 2015 09:40

^^^ That paralay piece on FGFA is authored by Prasun K. Sengupta!!!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jan 2015 10:48

5th-gen jet, mini missile on agenda as Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoygu heads to Delhi
By PTI | 19 Jan, 2015,

NEW DELHI: Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoygu will arrive here tomorrow on a three-day visit to hold talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar and review the ongoing cooperation and future prospects in the crucial sector.

During the talks, the Russian side is expected to raise the issue of the much-delayed joint production of a Fifth- Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and BrahMos mini-missile.

It is also expected to discuss Russian President Vladimir Putin's offer
last month to produce the 'Kamov' military helicopters in India, among other things.

The question of a possible lease of a second nuclear submarine from Russia could also come up in the meeting that is being held just days ahead of US President Barack Obama's visit to the country.
Currently, India operates an 8,140-tonne Akula Class submarine -- renamed the INS Chakra -- which was leased in 2011 from Russia for a period of 10 years.

The issues would feature as part of discussions as the two counterparts chair the 13th meeting of the Russian-Indian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC).

"The two ministers will review the progress made so far and the future scope," defence sources said.

One of the most important deals in the works between India and Russia at present is the FGFA. A Russian team was in the national capital last month to discuss the deal and iron out any
differences.

India has said that the basic prototype of the plane is already flying and the Indian version had just a few variations, hence a full-fledged R&D contract would be a waste of time and resources, official sources said.

The preliminary design agreement on the FGFA had been signed in 2010 between HAL and the Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the jet for use by both countries.

But the final R&D contract, which was to be signed by 2012, is still to be finalised. The contract would pave the way for prototype development and flight testing.

Russia is also expected to push for a key deal for the joint development of a BrahMos 'mini missile'. However, sources said that a tripartite agreement in this regard is unlikely to be signed between DRDO, NPOM lab of Russia and BrahMos Aerospace.

The Russian Minister will also be visiting the BrahMos aerospace centre in the national capital. .. The mini missile will have a speed of Mach 3.5 and can carry a payload of 300-kg up to a range of 290-km. In terms of size, it will be about half that of the present missile, which is around 10-metres long.

BrahMos Aerospace, an Indo-Russian joint venture firm set up in 1998, feels that the new missile could be inducted into service by 2017 and there would be a huge market for it in India and Russia and among friendly foreign countries.

The BrahMos missile can be launched from land, air and marine-based platforms.

While the army and navy have already started inducting land and sea-based Brahmos missile systems, the air launch variant is set for trials soon.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Jan 2015 18:39

As per a RT from Anantha Krishnan, the PAK FA will test its Guns in 2015.

Anantha Krishnan M retweeted
ANDRES @_ANDRESF20_ · now 55 minutes ago
Gun for the #PAKFA will be tested in 2015. #Aviation #Defense #Military. http://rostec.ru/en/news/4515405

Here is the article cited in the RT

The Instrument Design Bureau from High Precision Systems is testing this year the gun for the Russian fifth-generation T-50 (PAK FA) fighter.

Flight tests of the 9A1-4071K modernized rapid-aircraft cannon, which can exhaust its entire ammunition capacity in any mode, were conducted on the Su-27SM. In 2015, developmental work is planned to test the gun on a plane of the fifth-generation – the T-50.

Currently, the official terms of reference and the state contract are being finalized, according to TASS. PAK FA is Russia's fifth-generation multi-role fighter. It is being developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau, where the fighter has been designated as the T-50. PAK FA first took to the skies in 2010. In total, eight aircraft are being constructed; five of which are already flying. Serial deliveries of the fifth-generation fighter to the army are to begin in 2016.

The T-50 provides a system of automatic target recognition. In the lining of the PAK-FA special transceiver elements are integrated, allowing the aircraft to respond to all surrounding objects and to transmit signals to the pilot of any threats.

The main structural elements of the fighter are manufactured by Rostec enterprises. The power core was developed by designers from the United Engine Corporation. The cabin lights and trim were developed by specialists from RT-Chemcomposite. Avionics and onboard electronics, which satisfy the requirements of a fifth generation aircraft, were developed by Concern Radio-Electronic Technologies

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 31 Jan 2015 14:25

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 31 Jan 2015 15:23

Wow! Ankar mahodaya great catch. So this is the Ruski plan.

Su 50, Su 55 and futrther develop the FGFA (Su 55) for Russian use.

The chart shows clearly Su 50E, 144 nos. and Su 55 (FGFA) 40 nos. for India.