PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Oct 2015 21:58

.the future is likely to be AMCA + JSF, the interim might be lca plus fulcrum with an outside chance for rafale.

The one thing we can agree on is CATOBAR.

In that case only the LCA, the JSF and the Rafale-M qualify. The rest are al TBD.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 25 Oct 2015 22:05

Philip wrote:As said on another td.,the best naval aircraft for the 65K t CV would be a naval variant of the Super Sukhoi,BMos-M equipped (3),with stealth additives,far more capable than the naval Rafale and would cost half the price too.

Ironic isn't it, that the Russian Navy is phasing out the big heavy Su-33 in favour of.. the MiG-29K. Perhaps they haven't heard how cheap new naval Flankers are.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Oct 2015 23:39

IN would be very interested in a VTOL as replacement for their Harriers. Been there and done that market.
An F35Bish VTOL on AMCA variant should be the first of the TD we should think and draft our designs.

now, that would mean to befriend with P&W.. but with an interesting twist to the design here would be a twin engine VTOL that can also do the TVC. a 90* rear for the vertical take off would be the thing to go after, aided by a central dual turbine on either side [like a quadcopter, dual use that drive the auxiliary power too]

interesting design thoughts btw. only the lock and heed guys can do it.. but we can do it too! we need more test facilities and jigs. we need to reorg GTRE and up the ante on various engine needs.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Oct 2015 00:27

An F35Bish VTOL on AMCA variant

"no pressure" I assume.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Oct 2015 03:52

without pressures, our brains will just go to sleep. it is in our DNA!

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 26 Oct 2015 05:54

SaiK wrote: now, that would mean to befriend with P&W.. but with an interesting twist to the design here would be a twin engine VTOL that can also do the TVC. a 90* rear for the vertical take off would be the thing to go after, aided by a central dual turbine on either side [like a quadcopter, dual use that drive the auxiliary power too]

The gear box and fan design would be too complex and unreliable. Unkil would have gotten a slimmer, faster, probably supercruising F-35, if a twin engine VTOL variant was feasible.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2015 12:10

The SU-33 prod. was stopped some time ago.Since the 29K is in production,ordering some for the RuN is cost-effective for immediate usage aboard the Kuznetsov.However,Russia too has plans for building larger carriers in the future.10 years down the line the 29K will be inferior to other naval aircraft,esp. those with some stealth capabilities.Either it restarts Flanker prod. with a new advanced variant,or as hinted in some reports,develop a naval FGFA.The last option is a MIG-35 naval variant with stealth "additives".

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14362/ ... i4sSsuhdjo

India To Discuss FGFA, Multi-Role Transport Aircraft With Russia Next Month

Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Wednesday, October 21, 2015 @ 11:37 AM
Sukhoi T-50 Pak-FA aircraftac

Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar will be discussing the delayed fifth generation fighter aircraft development program along with multi-role transport aircraft on his visit to Moscow next month.

The minister will co-chair a meeting of Inter Governmental Commission on Military Technical Co-operation (IRIGCMTC) on November 2.

The FGFA combines stealth, super-cruise capability, super-maneuverability, data fusion and multi-sensor integration on a single fighter.

It was in 2007 that the Indo-Russian inter-governmental agreement for the FGFA was inked. It was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010.

India had asked Russia to permit test-pilots of Indian Air force to fly its fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) last month.

The option about making an outright purchase of yet undisclosed number of the FGFA is reportedly being thought of in lines with the way Narendra Modi decided to buy the Rafales. Modi is scheduled to visit Moscow in December next.

Retired Air Marshal and former vice chief of air staff, Pranob K Barbora told Defenseworld last month that “Despite our best attempts to have our pilots undertaking ‘proving flights’ of the MiG-21 BIS and Su-30 MKI, we could not have the Russians to agree to it.” This time the effort is again being made to do the same.

The research and development contract signed by the erstwhile UPA government has costed the country $ 400 million. And sources say, since then the price of the aircraft, being used by the Russian Air Force has shot up substantially.

Next stage of the contracting process, the signing of the joint development agreement, is being held back, while the Modi government is yet to decide the exact path it should take.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Oct 2015 18:11

Another report.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14407/ ... i4s-8uhdjo

Russia Likely To Discuss 154 Sukhoi PAK FA Fighter Jets To India

Source : Our Bureau ~ Dated : Monday, October 26, 2015
Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jet

Russia is expected to sign contract with India to deliver 154 Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets during the upcoming annual Indo-Russian summit.

The agreement, which will be under the joint FGFA initiative, will include work share and a commitment to the number of single-seat and double-seat aircraft, The Financial Express reported today.

"As currently the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in deep trouble due to its fast depleting force structure, India has to take wise decision with long-term as well as strategic foresight. There is no doubt that the PAK-FA (Sukhoi Design Proposal) will emerge as a major FGFA in the world,” An unnamed official was quoted as saying by the news daily.

“Hence, it would be better for India to take a reality check on the FGFA and recalibrate its position”, the official added.

The fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme is based on the Russian-made Sukhoi T-50 aircraft. It involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Russia and India, in January, agreed on the FGFA jet fighter project. All technical details had been settled, except commercial part which is in discussion, Rosoboronexport reported.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Oct 2015 18:48

Thakur_B wrote:
SaiK wrote: now, that would mean to befriend with P&W.. but with an interesting twist to the design here would be a twin engine VTOL that can also do the TVC. a 90* rear for the vertical take off would be the thing to go after, aided by a central dual turbine on either side [like a quadcopter, dual use that drive the auxiliary power too]
The gear box and fan design would be too complex and unreliable. Unkil would have gotten a slimmer, faster, probably supercruising F-35, if a twin engine VTOL variant was feasible.

That's fairly accurate although they would not have been able to afford a twin given the quantities required. A twin engine set up would add Billions to the O&S cost given the expeditionary nature and as such it was extremely hard to justify replacing a single engine fighter (F-16 is still the dominant replacement quantity driver and not the F-18) with a twin. You could still get a super-cruising design with a single engine requirement if you were able to make the desired tradeoffs in combat radius, weapons carriage capacity/flexibility, and stealth. With the current design it is clear that the trade space was tightly controlled by combat radius, the flexibility to carry the GBU-31, affordability (2 engines vs 1, advances sought in stealth, and Avionics reliability requirements) and stealth. Supercruise and high end speed was allowed to be traded for these metrics more liberally than was the case with the ATF for example. A twin would have still have been required to exist within the same trade-space that exists now with the main driver being the ability to replace all of the F-16 fleet with 5th generation capability.

Designing a twin engine STOVL fighter would still be an engineering challenge but if someone does not have the same trade space constraints as the US forces, it can be done although the risk would be remarkably high even for the US MIC.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Oct 2015 19:03

Philip wrote:The SU-33 prod. was stopped some time ago.Since the 29K is in production,ordering some for the RuN is cost-effective for immediate usage aboard the Kuznetsov.

So the Russians weren't willing to sponsor the development on a naval 'Super' Sukhoi, preferring instead to piggyback on Indian MiG-29K orders. But for some reason, the same logic doesn't apply to India when to comes to sponsoring Russian R&D efforts.

However,Russia too has plans for building larger carriers in the future.10 years down the line the 29K will be inferior to other naval aircraft,esp. those with some stealth capabilities.Either it restarts Flanker prod. with a new advanced variant,or as hinted in some reports,develop a naval FGFA.The last option is a MIG-35 naval variant with stealth "additives".

The Flanker will also be inferior to other naval stealth aircraft, with or without 'stealth additives'.

Also, the Russians will retire the Kuznetsov when they induct a replacement, whenever that might be. And a CATOBAR replacement will allow them to operate a naval variant of the PAK FA. The same isn't an option for us, since we'll still have two STOBAR carriers fielding an increasingly obsolescent MiG-29K complement.

John · Post by **John** » 27 Oct 2015 06:44

Viv S wrote:
Philip wrote:As said on another td.,the best naval aircraft for the 65K t CV would be a naval variant of the Super Sukhoi,BMos-M equipped (3),with stealth additives,far more capable than the naval Rafale and would cost half the price too.
Ironic isn't it, that the Russian Navy is phasing out the big heavy Su-33 in favour of.. the MiG-29K. Perhaps they haven't heard how cheap new naval Flankers are.

Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.

As for pak fa, Russian navy has yet to field new ddg I doubt they will build a carrier any time soon.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Oct 2015 12:06

The MIG-29Ks are as "obsolescent" as an F-18SH! In air combat probably much better. In fact the IN should exercise them with IAF aircraft to determine the +s and -s of the type.
The new Super-Sukhois,once shown in concept with an internal weapons bay,would have significant extra capabilities than an MKI. Who knows,the Russians may indeed develop another naval Flanker until a naval FGFA and a new CV materialise.That should both take around a decade to arrive. At this moment,the RuN is concentrating more upon its N-sub fleet,top priority,as they would be far more survivable than any CV. Russian long range aircraft operating out of land bases are felt adequate enough to defend the mainland far from home. Until the Syrian gambit,Russia hadn't displayed any pro-active desire for "expeditionary" warfare,unlike the US/NATO. The Georgian campaign saw them realise the need for more amphibs.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Oct 2015 16:59

Philip wrote:The MIG-29Ks are as "obsolescent" as an F-18SH! In air combat probably much better. In fact the IN should exercise them with IAF aircraft to determine the +s and -s of the type.

One, the SH still remains a somewhat more capable aircraft than the MiG-29K mainly down to the avionics component (its been fielding an AESA since 2004) and reliability.

Two, in another 10 years the SH will be obsolescent too. That's roughly when its retirements will start as well. Difference is, its embedded in a system fielding hordes of supporting surface, air & space based force multipliers and will itself start playing second fiddle to the F-35 by then. The IN's situation is a lot simpler.

The MiG-29K's technological edge vis a vis the PLANAF & PAF (which isn't very big to start with) evaporates the moment the J-31s enter the picture.

The new Super-Sukhois,once shown in concept with an internal weapons bay,would have significant extra capabilities than an MKI. Who knows,the Russians may indeed develop another naval Flanker until a naval FGFA and a new CV materialise.

That tells us that a plastic model of the Su-30 can be equipped with internal bays. Also, seeing as they didn't bother developing one when they needed a Su-33 replacement, why exactly would the Russians develop another naval Flanker without any use for it? Let me guess.. because India's is underwriting the R&D cost in your scenario?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Oct 2015 17:03

John wrote:Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.

Which only goes to show how ludicrous the idea of planning for a naval Flanker with internal bays is.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 27 Oct 2015 17:27

Viv S wrote:
John wrote:Main reason is flankers are heavily handicapped when they are operated from a ski jump as Chinese are finding out. In competition original Mig 29k out performed it but Sukhoi won because of its political influence and Soviet aspiration of cat equipped carriers.
Which only goes to show how ludicrous the idea of planning for a naval Flanker with internal bays is.

The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Oct 2015 17:42

Just curious .................

but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether

IAF has been requesting access to the PAK-FA. How come you know it is a beast?

On a side note, I think the Russians have "frozen" (whatever they have frozen) because they have run out of funds and need Indian funding to take the next steps in their own interests (which is OK - that is how nations behave, except India).

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Oct 2015 17:50

Thakur_B wrote:The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.

Indeed it will be. On the other hand, a naval PAK FA is still a long way off - even the definitive second stage PAK FA won't be ready before 2022 (possibly later). Unless the RuN upgrades its carrier ambitions to a higher priority, which doesn't seem to be the case. More importantly, the aircraft is likely to be designed for catapult launch, which makes it perfectly suitable for the IAC-2 Vishal (which too is a long long way off) but will leave it wanting as a MiG-29K replacement.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Oct 2015 17:59

NRao wrote:but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether

Well.. compared to the Su-33, it should be. Big aircraft with oodles of thrust, stealthy airframe and modern avionics. Although given that the airframe is optimized for the transonic and supersonic regime, at low airspeeds (congruous with STOBAR launch) it isn't necessarily superior to the Flanker (or Fulcrum) family.

The two big questions will remain - reliability/availability and cost. The first has always been an issue with Russian aircraft. But where the Su-30MKI clocks in at $65M+, and the Su-35S presumably more, a PAK FA delivered under $100M flyaway, may not be a realistic expectation.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 27 Oct 2015 18:13

NRao wrote:Just curious .................

but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether
IAF has been requesting access to the PAK-FA. How come you know it is a beast?

Well if the IAF would make do with the information on Pak-Fa on the interwebz they'd be pretty stoked

unfortunately they need a lot more info to actually make decisions.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Oct 2015 18:26

unfortunately they need a lot more info to actually make decisions.

Corrected for accuracy.

That is my point. In fact, from an IAF PoV, it seems to me the PAK-FA is nowhere close to being a "beast". Recall India wanted some 42 changes when the PAK-FA came out, have not been granted access, the engine is not what the Russians had in mind originally, etc, etc, etc. Just too many flags.

Perhaps better than the -27/-30? It better be. But, IMHO, much is still TBD. (And, I have had little trust in the Russian news outlets for years now - rbt, sputnik, etc. Nothing personal.)

John · Post by **John** » 28 Oct 2015 03:09

Thakur_B wrote: The original Su-33 with its low thrust weight might have been inadequate, but Pak-Fa is a different beast altogether.

No matter how big and powerful pak fa engine is airframe will take beating operating from STOBAR especially in the landing, trying to land the 30 ton "beast".

Even with catapults USN decided to do away with F 14 because of challenges of maintaining large aircraft (along with other reasons)

IMO Super hornet is about as big as you can deploy in carrier for a fighter aircraft. Before you run into challenges of maintenance.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 30 Oct 2015 16:25

IAF FGFA Artwork by 'crow11' @keypub - http://i.imgur.com/1jz1NsG.jpg

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Oct 2015 17:28

Nick_S wrote:IAF FGFA Artwork by 'crow11' @keypub - http://i.imgur.com/1jz1NsG.jpg

Looks like Tibet to me.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 30 Oct 2015 19:30

FWIW -

------
Vishnu Som ‏@VishnuNDTV 23h23 hours ago

Parrikar clears decks for acquisition of fifth generation stealth fighters from Russia: have directed officers to commence negotiations.

-------

I dont know what is different from earlier. IAF has not even test flown it yet, how can they decide anything.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Oct 2015 22:32

There is one Russian site quoting an Indian paper, but other than that:

Projects worth Rs 12,000 crore cleared ahead of Manohar Parrikar’s Russia visit

Ahead of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar’s three-day Russia visit, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) cleared two projects for the upgradation of engines and avionics of IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft from Russia for Rs 4,300 crore. Parrikar leaves on Friday.

Meanwhile, the DAC also cleared projects worth around Rs 12,000 crore.

The two countries are also likely to discuss the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal besides leasing of the second nuclear submarine to India. Parrikar will visit Moscow and St Petersburg and discuss defence cooperation between the two nations. He will also visit Admiralty Shipyard, one of the oldest and largest shipyards.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Oct 2015 22:58

Parrikar going to Russia to finalise deals for Modi to sign in December

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, on the eve of his departure to Russia, says he hopes to "prepare some [contracts for signing during] Prime Minister Narendra Modi's annual summit visit to Russia in December.

.....................................................

The proposal for India and Russia to co-develop two major aircraft - the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) and the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft (MRTA) - has been in trouble for some time. Parrikar spelt out the problems in both projects.

"As for the FGFA, negotiations will proceed further and we have halted ourselves to establish things clear in our minds. But with the Multi-Role Transport Aircraft, there are serious issues needing clarification, let me be frank. There are some serious observations which need to be clarified and reviewed properly," said the Indian defence minister.

wig · Post by **wig** » 31 Oct 2015 15:58

India, Russia to restart talks on fighter jets

Despite India and Russia still having ‘serious’ differences over the joint development of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), the two-sides are set to immediately re-commence the stalled negotiation process on the plane. Talks have been stalled for the past two years.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar will take up the issue with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu at the annual meeting of the two ministers in Moscow, sources have indicated. Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers will be part of Parrikar’s delegation.
Parrikar has left for Russia and will be meeting the Russian minister on November 2.
Before that, he will visit St Petersburg on the north-west coast of Russia. He will be visiting the Admiralty shipyard that makes submarines and also runs a state-run research centre. Though the IAF had a demand of some 127 FGFAs, it has halved its demand to have just three squadrons (around 18 planes in each). It was first reported in The Tribune in its edition dated August 11.
There are two parts to the FGFA project. One is the research and development (R&D) contract for $11 billion for long-term development of the jet. It has been pending ratification since 2013. The second is the actual joint-production or manufacturing of the plane. The preliminary design stage of the FGFA programme was completed in June 2013 and India has so far spent Rs 1,483.15 crore on it.
As a result, the T-50 fighter jet has been built for the Russians under its PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme for the FGFA. The jet is already test-flying and is slated to be inducted into the Russian air force in 2016.
New Delhi wants a more powerful engine; a greater share in the joint-production and is looking to get some of the planes in an off-the-shelf deal and not wait longer as its fighter-jet fleet is dwindling.
New Delhi is likely to suggest to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet could be supplied to the IAF while the research to improve upon the aircraft could be carried on simultaneously.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 52700.html

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 03 Nov 2015 17:23

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours ago

At least 154 FGFAs are being negotiated. And that number like the Su-30 MKI program is likely to become 300 eventually.

Plus S-400s,leased SSNs, GLONASS-K mil grade for ICBM targeting & Russki DSRVs.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 03 Nov 2015 19:55

Increase Su-30 MKIs to 400 and localize the spare parts manufacture 100%. Junk the FGFA program. Get one more Akula lease and the Glonass -K mil upgrade and DSRVs. Purchase the sensors and targeting software and manufacture the missiles locally.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Nov 2015 08:29

http://idrw.org/can-parrikar-crack-fgfa ... more-77406
India has been trying to Convince Russia to supply Pak-fa in its current standards and let India locally upgrade them to IAF’s requirements over the years in the country with Indian developed or sourced components, but Russia is not keen on such arrangements since it will save India on R&D cost and will deny Russia much needed funds to fix current deficiencies in the aircraft and make it viable aircraft in the Export market among its existing Sukhoi fleet customers .

We jingos would rather have the Russians be exposed on their current deficiencies in the aircraft than deny India to locally upgrade the PAK-FAs.

Mr Parrikar may please note if reading this thread.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Nov 2015 09:14

Take Off Mag

AESA for T-50 ( pg 30 ) , Tactical Missile Page 26

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to34.pdf

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 09 Nov 2015 08:22

Nick_S wrote:Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours ago
At least 154 FGFAs are being negotiated. And that number like the Su-30 MKI program is likely to become 300 eventually.

Plus S-400s,leased SSNs, GLONASS-K mil grade for ICBM targeting & Russki DSRVs.

The same wish list since 2010 ..yet nothing ..This year they added S 400

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Nov 2015 13:41

http://ria.ru/interview/20151112/1319135062.html

- Tell us, please, what the opportunity to acquire the aircraft of the fifth generation PAK FA with the latest electronic systems KRET?

- KRET already talked about the features of complex EW "Himalaya" and strapdown inertial navigation system (SINS) installed on the PAK FA. Now we want to draw attention to a new radar, which is designed for the PAK FA. This radar has several ranges of work and will work not only in the forward hemisphere - it will also be a number of opportunities for the circular scan, so that the pilot has complete information about a radar environment to without taking action on the maneuvering could see what was happening on the left, right, back in the automatic mode with the projection on the helmet and interactive glass cockpit.

According to their purpose PAK FA aircraft does not just apply to the aircraft of the fifth generation - it embodied a fundamentally new ideas. That is, it is one hundred percent digital aircraft that not only provides information to the pilot on request, but also provides full information support for the pilot - for this aircraft is equipped with a "smart skin". By "smart skin" we understand that many of the surface of the aircraft are versatile antenna systems that provide the application of the integrated use of all resources of the aircraft. First of all we are talking about the fact that a complex radar system can function, and means of passive intelligence and means of active radar and electronic warfare specialist.

For example, a complex electronic warfare "Himalayas" at certain points in space to protect the use of radar energy resource. All this is done to ensure that the aircraft had an opportunity to review the circular space in passive and active modes, was able to provide absolute protection and round to communication and control systems, electronic warfare aircraft covered all radii. That's how it complexed possibilities of different electronic systems, making the aircraft the most secure and invulnerable. Communication systems can also be used in protected mode - to form the transmission of information is not round, but only in the direction of the points to which he has to lose one or the other flight information, get a job or other information values. This is done by including features to maximize the use of weapons by aircraft, to maximize opportunities of electronic security. We can say that the PAK FA everything works in the general contour of the digital control system of the aircraft and to provide maximum comfort and a maximum degree of control for the pilots.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Nov 2015 15:53

New engine mention?

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 20 Nov 2015 17:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ0JL0asHZA

got a link about
.
All about Russia's Newest Advanced Stealth Fighter - Documentary

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Nov 2015 22:32

The S-shaped inlet is still not verified. Nor the design to deflect/absorb EM radiations.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Dec 2015 03:10

SaiK wrote:The S-shaped inlet is still not verified. Nor the design to deflect/absorb EM radiations.

They sacrificed certain features (as compared to the US variants), one of them was the S-shaped ducts. It is part of their design, not a bug.

Why test the new PAK FA in 2018?

3 December 2015 Tatyana Rusakova, RIR
The new engine of the PAK FA will only be tested as late as 2018 because there are difficulties in conducting the bench testing. However, the country’s defence capability will not be affected by this delay, say analysts.

What could impact Indian decision:

The second stage of testing the engine for the newest front-line fighter, the PAK FA, has been delayed by a year. The aircraft will now fly with the new engine only in 2018, and not in 2017 as originally planned.

The technical complexity of this project requires a long bench-testing period for the new engine, further delaying final completion date of the fifth generation fighter programme. Vladimir Prokhvatilov, expert at the Russian Academy of Military Sciences, said the engines “will be brought to a fully operational state no earlier than 2025”.

Today five prototypes of the PAK FA are flying using engines of the first stage; the AL-41F1. These are capable of developing a thrust of 86.3 kN, and 147 kN in the afterburner mode, but this does not meet the requirements of a fifth generation fighter, or the thrust-weight ratio, or fuel consumption requirements.

The second generation engines will, in terms of fuel efficiency and thrust-weight ratio, be much more effective than the predecessors, and will achieve full compliance with the technical criteria for fifth-generation engines. This will ensure that the T-50 can achieve supersonic cruising speeds without using afterburners.

Postponing testing for the second generation engine will affect the completion schedule of the entire PAK FA program, but analysts do not think this would pose any serious problems. “The Su-35s that are now entering active service in the military – are already almost fifth generation fighters, and these can be used for a long time,” RIR learned from Vladimir Shcherbakov, deputy chief editor of Vzlyot (Take-off) Magazine.

A shift “towards the future” of the PAK FA program will not affect the country’s defence capabilities, said Shcherbakov. “We must not forget that we have had a curtailment of spending – for now the state budget cannot handle the previously set amounts for national defence purchases. The Americans have also significantly reduced their purchases of Raptors (F-22s) – which are too expensive, and there is no strong opponent in existence,” said Shcherbakov.

Capacities focused on producing the PAK FA will not remain idle. The Defence Ministry will provide them other orders. These factories are already assembling 4+ generation aircraft. The signed state contract, concluded in August 2009 between the Russian Defence Ministry and the Sukhoi Company states that the Russian Air Force should receive 15 new Su-35S in 2015

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Dec 2015 04:30

The final design of the PAKFA along with its full suite of RAM, blockers, and even design changes along with clean sheet propulsion design is yet to fly even as a prototype. I would not dismiss the lack of shielding at this stage since the design is evolving.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Dec 2015 17:13

PM Modi’s Russia visit: New, cheaper deal on Sukhoi fighter planes

The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) fighter jets to India under the joint fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) initiative.

Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK FA fighters. The proposal awaits a decision from Prime Minister Narendra Modi, when he meets Russian President Vladimir Putin for the annual India-Russia summit this week.

India and Russia had signed an inter-governmental agreement to co-develop and co-produce the FGFA in 2007, which was followed by the $295 million preliminary design contract in December 2010. Modelled on the successful Brahmos missile project, the project involves Russia’s Sukhoi Design Bureau and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The overall FGFA project cost for making 127 single-seat fighters in India has been estimated to be around $30 billion.

The final design contract, under which both sides were to contribute an initial $6 billion each for prototype development and production, has not been signed between India and Russia so far. Meanwhile, Russia has gone ahead with the development of PAK FA and claims that it will enter service with the Russian Air Force in 2016, and enter serial production in 2017.

“Now that they already have the fighter, the Russians have made a revised offer to us. For $3.7 billion, they will give us all the technological know-how of making the fighter. We will also get three prototypes from them in that amount,” a senior defence ministry official said.

But the Indian Air Force (IAF) remains opposed to the idea. A senior IAF official said, “We are not in favour of the FGFA. The PAK FA fighter is too expensive at even this rate, and we are not sure of its capabilities.”

Sources said the Russian offer is driven by Moscow’s cash crunch and lack of firm orders with its defence industry.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Dec 2015 17:34

Why the drop? The only difference is that there will not be a combined effort to design the plane.

Also, the IAF is sticking to its guns - so far. The IAF has not seen the plane up close as yet, which by itself is very, very odd/striking.

IF the engine for the AMCA works out to Indian satisfaction, then the "FGFA" becomes expendable. I feel this is the reason for the prices drop. For MP to claim India could be an aerospace hub in 5-10 years this drop is to small.