PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Aug 2015 05:20

Cain Marko wrote:There
srai wrote:...

That's the sad part. There seems to be money and support available when foreign products are involved even when they are no where near ready but not the same when it comes to indigenous products. Mirage-2000, MiG-29, Su-30K, etc. ... déjà vu!
While this may seem the case, I dont believe it is that bad...the only indigenous fighter around is the tejas, and it is hardly going to be a substitute for a gen 5 bird, until india is comfortably producing amca types, pakfa is the best bet in town.

Won't there always be another super duper gen aircraft offered by foreigners than what is offered by Indian labs since they are playing catchup? By the time AMCA is ready there will be JSF-2, UCAV, maybe even 6th-Gen.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Aug 2015 06:37

^ this assumes that like the tejas, the amca also will be late in the coming. I thought that the tejas experience will enable a quicker delivery of the amca. Even if the latter is online by 2035, it would still be pretty cutting-edge, haven't seen any 6 gen types floated yet

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Aug 2015 07:20

Let us see what happens. The kicker should be the $6 billion for the R&D. These 65 planes could be to grease the Nov trip by Modi. It can always be reduced or cancelled altogether after that trip - like the Rafale.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2015 07:41

if boeing(mcd) can start off with a F-15A in early 70s and its still evolving to the silent eagle, there is reason to believe the su30 still has lot of legs on it becauset the basic design is good, there is good internal volume for new avionics and lots of pylons.

I see no reason why a silent mki concept cannot be worked out by sukhoi and hal together if they apply to it...and another 100 airframes manufactured in lieu of 50 rafales. these will work much more seamlessly with our existing squadrons.

just rebooting ourselves endlessly with small lots of different a/c is the worst way fwd. the F-15 and F-16 became world leaders on the back of economy of scale due to huge volume and consistent and comprehensive upgrades from the tailpipe to the nosecone, incl new families of weapons.

if a wife is flaky(less uptime), find a way to fix her and soothe her and massage her...rather than indulge in serial monogamy or extra marital flings.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Aug 2015 22:28

Silent Eagle concept is the most useless thing I have seen coming out of Boeing in a long time (and that takes some doing given the size of that company)..It trades away practically the best overall aspects of the F-15E (Range and Payload) for marginal improvements in RCS that are most likely going to be useless when traded against a modern D-EW-S/EPAWS(something that the F-15SA gets and the USAF is getting for its fleet). There is a reason why the Silent Eagle, and the International Hornet's Weapons pod and RCS enhancements are targeted at international customer, and have no takers in the parent services...If you don't have useful stealth you invest in stand-off weaponry and tactics..Committing to going down a path of questionable utility like a stealth pod with poor weapons flexibility is a poor allocation of resources. If you are a customer looking to buy or upgrade heavy multi-role fighters like the Su-30/35 or F-15E/K/SA, its go big or go home!! and that means big radars, bigger payload clearance, bigger EW stuff, basically everything to make use of the capability the design affords you.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Aug 2015 05:38

Alert: Not a MoD source.

I thought 65 PAK-FA + down-the-road-R&D for some 127 FGFA. No?

India May Take the Rafale Route to Purchase Russian T-50 Stealth Fighters

India may opt for off-the-shelf purchase of three squadrons of the Russian T-50 fifth generation stealth fighters, instead of taking the earlier Joint R & D route to manufacture 127 fighters in India.

That from Sputnik News!!!!

Hmmmmmmmmm.. Interesting.

BTW, are the 36 Rafale even coming?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Aug 2015 09:42

At what cost? The Raffy deliveries are another point of contention,with Dassault 's order book full for Egypt,etc. We are unlikely to get the whole lot within 3-4 years.At around $200M a pop,this would make the Raffy even more expensive than the FGFA which should be anywhere between $100-125M,a generous figure,given that an MKI costs around $60-70M built in India.Let's say twice the cost of an MKI,which would make it equal to that of a Raffy going by DM MP's earlier statements.

Buying the FGFA off the shelf would also make it cheaper to acquire,with the option for local production later on once production in Russia has firmed up. The $4-5B wanted for the JV could be used for acquiring the bird.However,this would not give us exclusive rights to it and other nations like Brazil may also buy it later on. China is unlikely to get it,may get the std. version of the inferior SU-35,as it has its own stealth programmes in hand. Russia is most unlikely to help it for free (copycat PRC)!

This then poses a huge problem for the IAF if the Raffy is to be dumped or pegged at just 36,as there are a few hundreds of retiring aircraft and the LCA MK-2 nowhere on the horizon.Will it be "Enter the Gripen"?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Aug 2015 11:07

Philip wrote:Will it be "Enter the Gripen"?

Why would it be? They are not significantly cheaper than the french bird and on top of that, they are much less capable. Furthermore, they don't provide the sanction proof element that comes with the french toys (mistral episode notwithstanding).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Aug 2015 22:48

If Rafale fails, it should be "all aboard the LCA and Su-30" plane. The planes are in serial production or about to enter serial production, and provide enormous bang for the buck. Spend the 2.5-4 Billion on AMCA incorporating new lessons learnt from the FGFA like coatings, missile ejection systems, non-projecting sensors, etc.

Keep it simple. LCA nd Su-30 shoyuld start becoming the backbone today. AMCA and FGFA should start becoming the backbone from 2030 onwards.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Aug 2015 06:20

As I had suspected, this could be, like the Rafale, a decision driven by politics. So, is the FGFA a gone deal? Wokay, not from MoD, granted. Even then. This seems to be heading in that direction. ???????????

India May Buy Sukhoi PAK-FA instead of Making FGFA with Russia

Preparations for the summit meeting later this year between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi are on, with senior Indian officials due to visit Moscow to finalise the agenda for the crucial meeting.

The heads of the Indian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Defence are due to visit Moscow in October, as part of the preparations for the Indo-Russian Summit. The Prime Minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit Russia at the end of November/beginning of December, according to a diplomatic source.

“The visits to Russia of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Ministers of India, Sushma Swaraj and Manohar Parikkar, have been scheduled for October. The ministers will be taking part in the meetings of the intergovernmental commissions that are working on preparations for the Indo-Russian Summit,” the source told RIA Novosti.

According to the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, in 2013, Russia supplied $4.78 billion worth of arms and military equipment to India. In 2014, Russia’s deliveries of arms and military equipment to India amounted to $4.7 billion.

However, according to the magazine Defence World, India may simply buy the Sukhoi PAK FA, instead of working on building a new fighter jet with Russia.
India is interested in underwater military and diving equipment produced in Russia, according to reports which surfaced on August 12. Additionally, Russian arms manufacturers, together with their Indian colleagues, are currently developing a new fifth generation fighter jet (FGFA).

$5.5 billion, additional, for the AMCA!!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2015 08:37

indranilroy wrote:If Rafale fails, it should be "all aboard the LCA and Su-30" plane. The planes are in serial production or about to enter serial production, and provide enormous bang for the buck. Spend the 2.5-4 Billion on AMCA incorporating new lessons learnt from the FGFA like coatings, missile ejection systems, non-projecting sensors, etc.

Keep it simple. LCA nd Su-30 shoyuld start becoming the backbone today. AMCA and FGFA should start becoming the backbone from 2030 onwards.

+ 1

Although I still hope the Rafale deal even in 2-3 squadron goes through , else IAF would have to figure out how to work with less squadron for few years till HAL can deliver Tejas and MKI

T-50-4 http://russianplanes.net/images/to171000/170881.jpg

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2015 09:57

Dassault's concerns about HAL's capabilities could easily be echoed by Sukhoi about the high-tech involved in the FGFA.It has taken India a decade+ to master MKI production and FGFA acquisition numbers aren't expected to be that high.This would drive up the cost of the aircraft.
It would be worth examining some kind of amalgamation of the LCA MK-2 and AMCA programmes,since it is going to take at least 5 years for the MK-2 to arrive,by which time it would be in tech terms at that date on a downhill curve. With the IAF having tasted a better "meal" of the MKI,Rafale perhaps, and FGFA,who would want a Mk-2 whose design DNA is of the '80s? That;s whay the hints about the Gripen being the "MK-2" need to be looked at more carefully.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 19 Aug 2015 11:01

Austin wrote:
indranilroy wrote:If Rafale fails, it should be "all aboard the LCA and Su-30" plane. The planes are in serial production or about to enter serial production, and provide enormous bang for the buck. Spend the 2.5-4 Billion on AMCA incorporating new lessons learnt from the FGFA like coatings, missile ejection systems, non-projecting sensors, etc.

Keep it simple. LCA nd Su-30 shoyuld start becoming the backbone today. AMCA and FGFA should start becoming the backbone from 2030 onwards.
+ 1

Although I still hope the Rafale deal even in 2-3 squadron goes through , else IAF would have to figure out how to work with less squadron for few years till HAL can deliver Tejas and MKI

T-50-4 http://russianplanes.net/images/to171000/170881.jpg

Problem is that the.lca is.taking time, and iaf is running short in a hurry. They are going to need at.least 2 sqds to maintain current strength of around 30 sqds by 2023, which is terribly inadequate. More like 10+ sqds to make the 39.5 number. Couple of extra mki sqds will not come until after 2018, when current production at hal ends unless they buy direct from russia.

I guess GOI will probly wind up getting 2 sqd of pakfa, which of course will take time to settle in, and be quite useless initially. The question now is whether to proceed with 8 billion dollar rafale deal with no make in india for a mere 36 birds or roll that into a g2g deal with saab for almost twice the number and some production help for lca?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Aug 2015 11:05

....a g2g deal with saab for almost twice the number and some production help for lca?

That seems to be a serious option making the rounds from last year. Since we're acquiring both a firang trainer (Pilatus) but also pursuing the HTT-40 yet to fly,both KA-226Ts and the LUH for the light helo requirements,it wouldn't come as a surprise if the Gripen was acquired as a one-off LCA until the Mk-2 was perfected with Gripen commonality. That may be why the MK-2 details have yet to emerge in full measure. LCA numbers required are around 300+ to replace hundreds of MIG-21s/27s. Plenty of space for both Gripen and Mk-2.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 19 Aug 2015 11:19

Does that mean that IAF & MoD have enough confidence in ADA/HAL/DRDO all to delivery on there promises.

AURA/AMCA/LCA mk2 will be prioritized & will be provided funds to make the wheels turn.

Also No news of AURA for a long time any new info. ????

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 19 Aug 2015 11:21

May i say that FGFA look beautiful & will become people's favorite in Tri color.

Right now IAF beauty is Su30mki

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 19 Aug 2015 11:26

Philip wrote:Dassault's concerns about HAL's capabilities could easily be echoed by Sukhoi about the high-tech involved in the FGFA.It has taken India a decade+ to master MKI production and FGFA acquisition numbers aren't expected to be that high.This would drive up the cost of the aircraft.

The decade long timeline is not a reflection of HAL's capability etc - it's a pure commercial game on Sukhoi's part to trickle feed the required manufacturing infra required, so that the gravy-train is sustained as long as possible.
After all, sucker's are supposed to be milked, as large extent as possible - nothing unique about Sukhoi, that will be done by every other commercial org (who has profit as a motive).

If you think it's indeed HAL's capability issue then try listing down, over a timeline, which manufacturing infra was shipped when - then can search around if similar manufacturing capability was available in India or not.
A side-by-side comparo table would do ... but wait, such analysis was never your forte, so leave it.

Try something more easy - list down what exactly are the path-breaking technologies that HAL has mastered/imported due to MKI assembly. To help you start, let me point out one possible such entry - aero-grade Ti large structure forging with complex geometry.
Now try and google around to see what kind of Ti forging capability existed in India between 2005 thru to 2014.

Hmmm ... do note but for even doing that kind of anal-ysis you'd need to know what Ti alloy is used in MKI structures like wings, empennage, fuselage etc - do you even know what is it?

=========================================

And betw dont' waste too much time trying to understand Dassault's concern etc ... these are pure commercial negotiating tactics, which are played out every now and then.
Doesn't reflect anything really - here's a likely "negotiation dialogue" that can happen:

For e.g. how difficult is it for Dassault is to say " Hey, listen HAL, do you have capability to manufacture CFC wing structures of, say 10m x 10m - by composite I mean HM CF (UD type) of Tensile strength of 1000MPa and density of 1.6g/cc"?

HAL SDRE (apologetically): Well saar, the autoclave we have used so far allows us to manufatcure 9m x 9m units of 950MPa strength but with 1.6g/cc density. The surface finsih was of 20micron level.

Dassault Sales guy: Well ... so you are not capable enough ... as we want people to have experience of large autoclave handling higher tesnile strength CFC structures - and yes the surface finish needs to be max 15micron, you see.

HAL SDRE (more apoloegtically): Well we can import the autoclaves and other surface finish machinery/technology from you.

Dassault Sales guy: Yes you can ... will cost you xxmil $. But the manuals are in french ... do your engineers understand french.

HAL SDRE (almost whispering): No

Dassault sales guy: Add to that cost of onsite capability building (in Paris) of 50 engineers for 1 year, that would include a pre-requisite 6mth long french course in Paris.

HAL SDRE (now bold enough): How about deputing some of your linguists and engineering trainers to here in B'Lore, Kerala.

Dassault Sales guy: We can ... but that will extend the learning period to 2 yrs as, French folks can't withstand the humidity, temp, mosquito etc more than 2 weeks ... so multiple batches will be required you see!!
...
...
and so on and so forth.

HAL guys didn't get a chance to know that famed 10 x 10 m autoclave manufactured wing structures of max 8m dimension. And worse there's no significant drag penalty between surface finish levels of 15 micron and 20 micron. And 900MPa tensile strength is more tnan enough for the CFC raw material for the wing structures (as there are enough safety margin already in-built).

So who lied ... the Dassault French negotiator: Nope!! He himself probably didn't know the diff between 900-1000MPa, 15 and 20 micron and usage sapce of 81sqm vs 100sqm autoclaves etc - he just parroted the numebrs what has been told by his engineering team.

And the HAL wouldn't have known any of these things until and unless they do actual manufacturing (as opposed to importing adn screw-driving it) of these components.
Point is, for various pressititudes and assorted retired lifafa aphsars (and some worthies in BRF here), the sermon is pretty simple really - HAL/India is backward/not-capable technologically wrt Rafale manufatcuring and so teh cost will be higher to make-it-in-India. So let's Import and be done with it.

Plus, if airframe manufacturing is going to be so difficult, what about sophisticated stuff like an AESA. Need to import that as a whole unti as well (like we do in Bars, that too a PESA - Rajendra and other efforts not-withstanding).

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Aug 2015 11:48

Is it something like HAL has too many programs going on and cant put requisite resources into the LCA ? ..Would it be better off if it was divided into smaller corp orates that have their own mandates ? I dont think Indian scientists and technologists are any less than their foreign counterparts !

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 22 Aug 2015 18:55

All weapons carried by Russia's next generation fighter - T-50 PAK FA

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 22 Aug 2015 18:56

^^^^^^ Guru's which one is the deadliest

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Aug 2015 04:24

PAK FA To Get Heat Resistant Automated Rapid Fire Cannon

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 23 Aug 2015 04:27

kit wrote:Is it something like HAL has too many programs going on and cant put requisite resources into the LCA ? ..Would it be better off if it was divided into smaller corp orates that have their own mandates ? I dont think Indian scientists and technologists are any less than their foreign counterparts !

This is what I also advocated here earlier. One holding company with many subsidiaries.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Aug 2015 04:38

s ? I dont think Indian scientists and technologists are any less than their foreign counterparts !

There is R&D, then a product, followed by manufacturing. Transportation, supply chain, etc are critical too.

Seems to me India has a very long way to go.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Aug 2015 08:56

tushar_m wrote:All weapons carried by Russia's next generation fighter - T-50 PAK FA

So the internal weapons bay can accommodate munitions up to 4.2m in length.

I doubt you need both external K-100 and internal I-810 LR-AAM.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Aug 2015 10:26

^^^
Looks like fan art to me, so needs to be taken with pinch of salt onlee.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Aug 2015 11:20

srai wrote:So the internal weapons bay can accommodate munitions up to 4.2m in length.

I doubt you need both external K-100 and internal I-810 LR-AAM.

The Internal Weapon bay capability is well known by now from PiBU article , The T-50's internal bays are about 4.6 m long and 1 m wide, and each bay can hold up to two 700 kg (1,540 lb) UVKU-50U ejectors the two main bays can theoretically hold a total of 2,800 kg (6,170 lb) of payload. Technically they can carry 4 RVV-BD/Id 810 class LRAAM of missile or 4 Kh-58UShK's in the 4 Bays. The two side bays can hold SRAAM a R-73 derivative called izd.760 (K-74M2)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Aug 2015 11:48

Via Jane's IDR/ Piotr Butowski/Aug 2014/secretprojets

Russia is preparing a precision guidance revolution for its fast jet, strike, and bomber forces. Piotr Butowski reviews developments Russian defence minister Sergey Shoygu told a large Russian armed forces planning session in July 2013 that he intended to greatly bolster the services' stocks of 'smart' precision-guided weapons. He said that over the next three years "we will increase the number of guided missiles by five times, and by 2020 thirty times" over current stocks, and just over 12 months into that plan, Russia is making progress. Shoygu used the term "krylatyie rakety" (winged missiles), which in Russia usually means air-to-surface missiles, and non-ballistic naval and land missiles. It is not known exactly how many of those weapons are currently available, but the assessment is that it is a relatively low base number to make such a substantial increase possible. Certainly experience in Georgia in 2008 and then more recent conflicts highlighted a lack of precision capability.

In April 2013, assistant defence minister - and former commander-in-chief of the Russian Air Force - Alexander Zelin appeared at a convention of aviation manufacturers in Moscow, where he said new versions of the K-74M, K-77-1 (AA-12 'Adder') and K-37M (AA-X-13) air-to-air missiles, tactical Kh-59MK2, Kh-31PM (AS-17 'Krypton'), Kh-35U (AS-20 'Kayak') and other air-to-surface missiles were beginning evaluation or production. They are being followed by K-74M2 and K-77M air-to-air and Kh-38 air-to-surface missiles - for internal carriage by the PAK FA; KAB-250L, KAB-500M and UPAB-1500 (izdeliye K-070) guided bombs; and the new Kh-ZRK anti-radiation missile. Zelin did not talk about strategic missiles, but did mention two large air-to-surface missiles with a range of more than 1,000 km; the subsonic Kh-SD-ON and hypersonic GZ UR. Kh-101/Kh-102 Shortly afterwards, in October 2013, the commander of the state flight evaluation centre at Akhtubinsk (929th GLITs), Radik Bariyev, published a presentation on the centre's recent work in the Russian press. Three versions of the Kh-101/Kh-102 (izdeliye 111) subsonic cruise missiles appear in the GLITs testing paperwork - izdeliye 504B, 504A, and 504AP (in the order they were tested) - but scant details are known of how they differ. It may be that the A and B suffixes denote whether the warhead is conventional or nuclear, as both are known to be available. Documents from the 1990s revealed an izdeliye 504E, but that is considered an experimental or lead-in design. Various sources indicate that the Raduga Kh-101/102 was first launched from Tu-95MS and Tu-160 bombers in 2004. Then, in 2010 the NPO Saturn engine plant made and handed over to State Machine Building Design Bureau 'Raduga' (Raduga Design Bureau) the first production batch of the izdeliye 84 engines, suggesting that series production began in 2010-2011. Boris Obnosov, head of the Tactical Missiles Corporation (TM Corporation) announced in 2011 that the organisation had received a state award to deliver a "new product for strategic aviation". Only one such award is granted across the whole arms industry each year, so it must have concerned an exceptionally important type of weapon and the only known product that fits that description is the Kh-101/Kh-102 missile. In January 2014 the commander of Russian long-range aviation Lieutenant General Anatoly Zhikharev told the press that this year the service would perform the first launches of new missiles. The Kh-101/Kh-102 is about 7.5 m long and weighs 2,400 kg. It boasts a range understood to be in the order of 4,000 km in non-nuclear configuration, or 5,000 km in the nuclear version. Its guidance system combines a gimbal-free inertial navigation system (INS), satellite navigation receiver, radar altimeter terrain contour matching (TERCOM) system and an Otblesk-U optoelectronic digital scene-matching area correlation (DSMAC) package. Exact production numbers are hard to come by, but an indicator came in July 2013 when NPO Saturn announced it had signed two large contracts to provide engines for missiles made by Raduga Design Bureau by 2015. Together, those contracts are valued at more than RUB4 billion (USD110 million) to Raduga Design Bureau by 2015, and roughly valuing one engine to be circa RUB7 million means that the order can be assessed to be for around 550 engines.

Tactical missiles

Russia is currently working on three 'operational' level missiles with a range of 1,000-2,000 km - the subsonic Kh-SD, supersonic Kh-MTs and a hypersonic project. The Kh-SD (Sredney Dalnosti - medium-range) subsonic missile was believed to have been halted in circa 2011, but may have been revived as Zelin spoke of the Kh-SD-ON designation. Raduga Design Bureau is also currently launching production of a new missile known as izdeliye 715, which according to one source will arm the upgraded Tu-95MSM strategic bomber, although it is not yet known if the missile is for trials or series production. It may be that izdeliye 715 is actually the Kh-SD missile, for which design work began in the early 1990s. The Kh-SD shared the guidance system of the Kh-101, but has a smaller, low-observable airframe and was roughly analogous with the US AGM-158 JASSM. It measured about 6 m long, and weighed roughly 1,500 kg at launch, able to cover a range of up to 2,000 km. IHS Jane's understands that it may have two warhead options: a penetrating payload for use against deep, reinforced targets; or a cluster of submunitions to tackle area targets. Despite its size, the Kh-SD missile could be carried by Su-34 tactical bombers, as well as larger strategic aircraft. The latter are also expected to be armed with izdeliye 75, which is currently at the technical design stage with the TM Corporation team at Korolev near Moscow. Izdeliye 75 is likely to be a supersonic operational/tactical-level missile designated Kh-MTs. Like the Kh-SD, the supersonic Kh-MTs is also 6 m long (the maximum size accommodated by the Tu-95MS bomber's bomb bay) and weighs about 1,500 kg. It is to be powered by a ramjet, accelerated up to operating speed by a booster rocket, and be able to reach targets up to 1,000 km away when flying a high lofted profile. An active/passive radar known as Gran-75 is currently in development with Detal and is expected to be fitted to the Kh-MTs. The broadband passive-channel seeker is being made by TsKBA in Omsk. Another shadowy missile, known as the izdeliye 80 Grom (Thunder) is being created by TM Corporation, but virtually nothing is known about it beyond superlative claims from the developer.

Hypersonic programme

According to Zelin's pronouncement, Russia has a very ambitious two-staged hypersonic missile development programme under way. He described how the first stage envisages development of a relatively small air-launched missile with a range of 1,500 km and a speed of about Mach 6 by 2020. This should be followed in the next decade by a Mach 12 weapon offering global coverage. Some analysts have connected research for Russia's GZ UR (Giper-Zvukovaya Upravleniya Raketa - Hyper-Sonic Guided Missile) with studies of the MBDA LEA hypersonic vehicle conducted in Russia and work with India on the putatively hypersonic Brahmos-2 programme, but there is no open source evidence confirming that. In October and November 2012, Russia and India made a preliminary agreement to work toward a Brahmos-2 and a model was shown at the Aero India 2013 exhibition. However, Russian exhibition participants asserted that the project has little in common with Russia's hypersonic missile and is only a demonstration of intent and possibilities. Nevertheless, there is significant Russian industrial co-operation with India, involving NPO Mashinostroeniya (the missile), TMKB Soyuz (powerplant), TsAGI (aerodynamic research) and TsIAM (engine tests). The primary aim of working together is to share and reduce the costs of any resulting technologies as it is very likely that the same contractors are working on GZ UR. The incorporation of NPO Mashinostroeniya into the TM Corporation in October 2012 formally noted one of the goals as "mastering hypersonic technologies". One of Russia's advantages in hypersonic testing is easy access to Tu-22M3s as a large, fast launch platform. Currently configured for the LEA project, testing typically involves mounting a hypersonic test vehicle on the forward section of a Kh-22 (AS-4 'Kitchen') missile, which is then launched at speeds of up to Mach 1.7 and altitudes of 14,000 m (46,000 ft). The Kh-22 boosts the test vehicle to a maximum speed of Mach 6.3 and lofts it to more than double the altitude before launching the test element. With sanctions breaking out and relations generally deteriorating between Russia and Western Europe over the conflict in Ukraine, this project may be imperilled, but France is managing to sustain closer ties than most of its neighbours not least because of its commitment to the Mistral amphibious assault ship deal. Meanwhile, Russia has been simultaneously using the Tu-22M3/Kh-22 combination to explore its own hypersonic vehicle research since 2012, when DMZ built four adapted Kh-22s for hypersonic trials.

PAK FA strike

The exact anti-surface weapons fit of the PAK FA is still closely guarded, but fragments of information point to the aircraft's internal bays hosting the Kh-58UShK (also known as the D7UShK) variant of the AS-11 'Kilter', and Kh-38M izdeliye 65 air-to-surface missiles, K047 (KAB-250L) laser-guided bombs and the izdeliye 180 (K-77M), izdeliye 270, and izdeliye 810 air-to-air missiles. The Kh-58UShK anti-radiation missile developed by the Raduga Design Bureau is a very thorough upgrade of the Kh-58U missile that has been in service since the 1980s, itself an upgrade of the earlier Kh-58 (izdeliye 112). The U in the suffix stems from Uluchshennaya (improved), the K from Kompaktnaya (compact), as the missile is only 4.19 m long rather than the earlier missile's 4.81 m and with folding wings and shortened empennage, the missile will fit into the fighter's internal weapons bay. The Sh element of the suffix indicates that it is fitted with a new broadband (Shirokodyapazonnaya) passive 9B-7735K radar seeker which can encompass all current air-defence radars, according to the developers. The legacy weapon had to be fitted with one of three narrower band seekers matched to likely threats in theatre. The Kh-58UShKE (E for 'export') missile boasts a maximum range of 245 km when launched from 20,000 m at a speed of Mach 1.5, or 76 km from 200 m altitude, hitting a maximum speed of 4,200 km/h as it streaks towards its target. However, that performance envelope is based on underwing carriage and internal stowage may affect this. The Kh-58UShK has undergone tests on the Su-34 tactical bomber and has been in series production since 2012.China is understood to be currently negotiating a large order of Kh-58UShKE missiles, seeking to begin deliveries in 2015. The missile's suitability for internal carriage means it is probably destined for the J-20. The Kh-38M (izdeliye 65) is a universal new-generation air-to-surface missile set to replace the Kh-25M (AS-10 'Karen') and Kh-29 (AS-14 'Kedge'), the most popular current air-to-surface missiles originating in Russia. Initial launches of Kh-38M missiles (albeit with no seeker) were made from an AKU-58 launcher attached to an Su-34 in 2010. According to GLITs, the laser-guided 65ML missile (also known as the Kh-38ML, or MLE for export) completed state testing in 2013 and trials have now begun for a number of variants. However, the latest financial documents from the Azov-based AOMZ Company, which makes the semi-active 65SNL laser seeker for the Kh-38ML, note that the missile's state tests actually slipped through 2014. AOMZ is also designing an imaging infrared (IIR) seeker for another version of the missile Kh-38MT (or MTE for export). Other variants include the Kh-38MA (export MAE) version, fitted with an ARGS-38 active radar seeker and the Kh-38MK (export MKE, K for cluster) anti-tank variant, which delivers a number of independently targeted submunitions to take on multiple armoured vehicle targets. During the cruise stage, all versions of the missile are guided by the Ts-074MD INS with satellite navigation updates.The Kh-38ML is a heavy missile weighing up to 520 kg, up to 250 kg of which is warhead (BS-65F high-explosive/fragmentation or BS-65P penetrating, depending on type). The maximum range is 40 km, which is doubled in the Kh-38MK version.

Lightweight missiles

Zelin asserted that Russian industry is also working on another anti-radiation missile, the Kh-ZRK (Zenitnyi Raketnyi Kompleks - anti-aircraft missile complex). It is still not confirmed exactly what missile this refers to, but Zelin also complained about the lack of funding for "anti-radiation missile for carrier self-defence, including for combat helicopters", which matches the Kh-36P missile, also mentioned within the PAK FA's weapons suite by Sokolovsky. The Kh-36P was a short-range anti-radiation missile with roughly the same footprint as the R-77 air-to-air missile. Zvezda-Strela began development in the early 1990s, before the collapse of the Soviet Union saw the project sequentially suspended and resumed. Its current status is unknown and the missile has not been displayed in public, but it may still be an open requirement. However, another project using elements of the Kh-36P, codenamed LMUR (Lyogkaya Mnogotselevaya Upravlaemaya Raketa - lightweight multi-target guided missile) but also known as izdeliye 70, seems to be faring better. The only known picture of the LMUR dates from 2013, when it was shown with the Mi-28MN attack helicopter, showing a system resembling the current Shturm and Ataka anti-tank missiles.

New guided bombs

State Scientific and Production Enterprise (GNPP) 'Region', the only company that currently makes guided bombs in Russia, is testing three new designs of 250, 500 and 1,500 kg weapons, the smaller two fitting inside the PAK FA weapons bay. Even smaller bombs are planned, but work has not yet begun and critics have lamented the lack of development of an equivalent to the US' guided small-diameter bomb families. GNPP Region was contracted to work on the KAB-250L (Korrektiruyemaya Aviatsyonnaya Bomba - corrected aerial bomb; L for laser), also known as K047, in April 2007. The KAB-250L features AOMZ's 27NM-G gyro-stabilised laser seeker and a satellite navigation receiver. Test drops were planned from an Su-34 in 2010, but the development deadlines have still not been met, with seeker and flight control system immaturity cited as the main issues causing the delay. A KAB-250 has been seen beneath the wing of an Su-34 at GLITs, but formal testing is only now expected this year or next. Various official documents state that another bomb, the electro-optic (EO)-guided KAB-500M (izdeliye K08), had been undergoing state testing as early as 2012, but it has never been shown publicly. The only open source image attributed to the KAB-500M bomb is a small model displayed at ILA 2000 in Berlin. The largest of the new guided bombs, the 1,500-kg UPAB-1500 can only be carried externally, for example attached to the APU-172-1 launcher on the Su-34 (it is also destined for the Tu-22M3 and Tu-160). It was shown at a closed exhibition at Akhtubinsk in September 2005, fitted with four folding wings, which apparently enable it to reach 70 km when dropped from altitude, in contrast with 20 km for the wingless KAB-1500. UPAB-1500 can be fitted with various seekers, including active radar, to aid accuracy.

Upgrading the legacy

In addition to these new systems, Russia is also upgrading the Kh-31, Kh-35 and Kh-59 (AS-13 'Kingbolt') large tactical missiles.The Kh-31PM (izdeliye 06), known as the Kh-31PD in its export variant, is a supersonic anti-radiation missile, which entered production in 2012. It has a stretched body measuring 5.34 m (up from the Kh-31P's 4.7 m) to accommodate more propellant in the launch booster and fuel for the cruise motor, increasing range from 110 km to 180-250 km at a speed of Mach 1.5. The missile also features a new digital engine control module and a new broadband passive seeker (in place of the legacy configuration of three interchangeable seekers), and a 110 kg warhead, 23 kg heavier than on the original variant. TM Corporation is also developing the Kh-31AM (Kh-31AD in export form), an anti-shipping spin-off of the Kh-31PM. This missile is fitted with an upgraded U505M active seeker developed by St Petersburg-based Radar MMS. TM Corporation's Obnosov announced the completion of tests of the Kh-31AD earlier this year. Meanwhile, TM Corporation's subsonic Kh-35U missile (izdeliye 07), known as the Kh-35UE in its export version, was launched for the first time in November 2010, using an Su-34 as the host aircraft. Initial tests of the missile were completed in November 2012 and state acceptance tests followed in 2013. Kh-35U retains the external dimensions of the Kh-35, but has a new, much smaller izdeliye 64M turbofan engine enabling it to carry more fuel and doubling the range to 260 km. Performance is enhanced with Radar MMS' new U-502U seeker (although the Gran-K seeker made by Detal is also being tested). It also features a Ts-074U INS and satellite navigation receiver. A final variant, known as the Kh-35UL (Kh-35EUL for export) is a lightweight version developed for carriage by MiG-29K.Raduga Design Bureau's Kh-59M (AS-18 'Kazoo') - also known as izdeliye D9M or 106M - has been in production for three decades and has spawned three new variants that are currently in development.The Kh-59M2 (D9M2, 106M2), being offered for export as Kh-59M2E, has basically the same flight characteristics as the older missiles - a range of 115 km and maximum speed of Mach 0.88 - but introduces an improved seeker (the M has a TV seeker and the M2 a low-light TV package) and adds satellite navigation. This increases launch weight by 30 kg to 960 kg. The Kh-59M2A (export designation Kh-59MK), is an anti-ship variant fitted with Radar MMS' ARGS-59 active radar seeker in lieu of the TV camera. The Kh-59M2A also shuns the legacy launch rocket booster - needed in the Kh-59M/M2 missile due to the limitations of the TV guidance system. The Kh-59M/M2 has a TV seeker, the picture from which is transmitted to the fighter aircraft and used by the second crew member to guide the missile to the target through the command line. To use the Kh-59M missile, the APK-9 video and command transmission pod has to be suspended on the aircraft. To establish a connection for the video transmission just after the launch, the missile is quickly put ahead of the aircraft using a rocket booster. It works for several seconds and "delivers" the missile 1,000 m in front of the aircraft, at the same altitude. Once the video connection is established, the aircraft turns back; the connection is then automatically switched from the front to the rear antenna of the APK-9 control pod. By not using the launch rocket booster space is freed up and weight reduced, enabling larger fuel reserves to be carried for the turbofan cruise engine. This more than doubles the missile's range to 285 km in the export variant. The Kh-59M2A was launched for the first time by an Su-30MK2 in 2004, but state testing was not completed until 2013. Production of both missiles is commencing at the SmAZ plant at Smolensk. An export version Kh-59MK2 fitted with an Otblesk DSMAC system - previously developed for the Kh-555 and Kh-101 strategic cruise missiles - instead of the radar seeker was presented for the first time in 2009. However, the status of that project is unclear and it is known only in the export version, with no apparent domestic market equivalent.

Air-to-air missiles

New air-to-air missiles, all developed by Moscow's Vympel, are also being developed under a two-stage programme.Firstly, legacy missile types - the R-74M, R-77-1 and K-37M - are being modernised, while new designs such as the K-74M2, K-77M, izdeliye 270 and izdeliye 810 are being worked on. Only the four new designs are thought to be intended for internal carriage in the PAK FA. The K-74M (izdeliye 750, RVV-MD for export) short-range air-to-air missile finished state acceptance tests on 3 October 2012 and in June the following year, Moscow-based Duks secured an order from the Ministry of Defence for series production of the missile, which transitioned from the 'K' development designation to the R-74M. This is being built in two versions, the R-74MK with a radar proximity fuze and R-74ML with a laser fuze. R-73 (AA-11 'Archer') and R-74 - with both fuze options - are difficult to tell apart, as the redesign that created the R-74M has not altered the external appearance from that of the R-73. The R-74M variants were originally fitted with a dual-band Impuls IIR seeker made by Arsenal in Ukraine, the same company behind the Mayak seeker in the R-73. Arsenal's Impuls is more sensitive than the Mayak and has higher off-boresight visibility of +/-60° rather than the +/-45° offered by the R-73. However, the current disquiet between the countries has rendered this situation more complicated and it is unclear exactly what impact this has had, and what contingencies Russia has in place. As of mid-2014, the Karfagen seeker from Russia's AOMZ company was not yet ready for production. Stepping up to the beyond-visual range domain, the R-77-1 (izdeliye 170-1 or RVV-SD for export) medium-range missile has refined aerodynamics over the legacy R-77 version, with a more streamlined nose cone and hidden control fin fittings. Beneath the skin, the missile's software control system has been updated and the 9B-1348-1 (izdeliye 50-1) radar seeker has a more powerful transmitter and more sensitive receiver. The designers claim that taken together, these performance and kinematic improvements have extended the missile's range by 30 km to 110 km and increased its g -loading by about one third. The K-77-1 missile - which is manufactured by Vympel - was launched for the first time from an Su-27SM(3) fighter in September 2010. Next up the scale is the heavy, long-range K-37M (izdeliye 610M), also known as the RVV-BD, which passed its Russian acceptance evaluations in early 2014. This has been a long time coming, as it is nearly 21 years since the original version K-37 was first launched from a MiG-31M, knocking down an aerial target 228 km away in August 1993. Development resumed in the beginning of the new millennium with the improved K-37M. This was specifically developed for the enhanced MiG-31BM interceptor, but Vympel asserts that it is a universal missile for the full range of Russian fighters - current marketing data shows the missile being launched by a MiG-35 lightweight fighter. The RVV-BD export version reportedly has the internal designation izdeliye 620 and is a variant of the K-37M missile, albeit using a different warhead and software (the Russian K-37M can be armed with a nuclear warhead). Vympel claims a 200 km maximum range in head-on engagements against "some types of targets", which is rather nebulous but is understood to mean against large aircraft. The K-37M (now entering production as the R-73M) is powered by a dual-mode solid-propellant rocket motor and features an MFBU-610MSh Shayba dual-band ( X- and Ku-band) active radar seeker developed by Agat and built by Detal. Turning back to the PAK FA, progress is being made on the compact new short-range K-74M2 (izdeliye 760) missile intended for the aircraft's small outer weapons bays, in a system reminiscent of the long-abandoned K-30 (izdeliye 300) missile. The K-74M2 is expected to be fitted with Azov AOMZ's new Karfagen-760 (Carthage) seeker, backed up by an inertial flight-control system and course-correction datalink, and powered by an improved rocket motor. The missile has yet to be seen in public and its exact development status is unclear, with some sources saying that the Karfagen-760 seeker is still being built and that the missile is being tested with a provisional seeker fit. A little more detail is known of the K-77M (izdeliye 180) medium-range AAM. Visually, it differs from the R-77-1 because it swaps that missile's unusual folding lattice tail fins for more conventional solid control surfaces. Its active radar seeker is made by Istok and, together with a new double-impulse, solid-propellant motor (in place of the R-77's single-impulse motor) helps extend the missile's operating envelope from the R-77's 16 km out to 25 km. The new motor contains more propellant and has an adjustable time interval between the two burns. K-77M also features a new course-correction datalink with a much shorter relay time and what the developer describes as a more precise inertial control system, along with more powerful batteries. Vympel has also been working for several years on a new izdeliye 270 medium-range AAM as a K-77M follow-on, but virtually no details have been confirmed beyond that. Russia also remains wedded to the concept of very long range interceptions and the izdeliye 610M missile forms the basis for the new izdeliye 810. The airframe has been revised for internal carriage and fitted with a dual-impulse motor, which the developers claim should enable the missile to reach targets out to extremely long ranges - circa 300 km. Guidance is provided by a new MFBU-810 broadband passive/active radar seeker.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Aug 2015 14:04

Bewildering number of missiles under dev.If a small number of them enter service,it would make a huge diff to the stand-off range of current /future strike fighters.Interesting that the MIG-35 can carry a 225+KM missile. Our MIG-29UGs/29Ks are also expected to carry BMos_M.

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Aug 2015 04:20

^^^

How much flak would these guys have gotten if it were in India? They keep showing these new or improved variants at every airshow for as long as I remember but haven't quite delivered yet. Look at how many upgraded variants the Americans have done on their AIM-120 AMRAAM already while the R-77 still languishes without any major upgrades for something like two decades.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 24 Aug 2015 06:26

^But but but.....they have got white skin and they are furrin, also they have natashas

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 07:36

Most of those projects will never see any production as Russian defense capability has already peaked. Russia is already spending over $93 billion/year on defense and its economy is contracting at 4.5%. Additionally, inflation is running over 15% which means expenditure on defense will decline. If the Russians can get the Chinese or Indians fund their capex, there may be development on some weapon systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Aug 2015 07:41

i have heard talk of the ramjet r77 since around 2000. in between the americans moved from amraamc c5 to c7 to d and even used that as 2nd stage KV of the SM6 sam.

Mort is exactly on the dot. mil r&d is very expensive and Rus is a declining economic power. commodity prices are likely to remain depressed as chinese demand and buildout has peaked, middle east is burning, africa is in chaos and russia hardly exports any finished high value products on civilian side like engines, aeroplanes, ships, machine tools, semiconductors, CE devices, cars, telecom eqpt.

just raw materials and weapons will not keep them afloat.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 07:42

R-77 has an upgrade in RVV-SD, posted many times before

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/567/

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 07:51

R-77 has and had relied on export to keep it afloat. To the best of my knowledge the Russian Air Force never really bought the missile in any sizable amount. The future missiles will also depend upon domestic support and how the economy pans out and how the plans develop over time. The AMRAAM program has a standing (domestic) order of more than 16,000 missiles with more than 2/3 delivered already..Thats your difference. Some of these missiles in the PAKFA graphic will most likely see the light of the day...ALL? Perhaps if the economy turns around. If they can't get a grip on inflation and oil touches $36-$37 a barrel then they are going to have to make some hard choices. Aviation Week did an article a couple of weeks ago on some of the deferments that are on the horizon.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 07:56

Defence Expenditure is a function of Budget for any country and Russia has now moved to floating currency which means even if the oil price goes low or high the Rouble will adjust itself and Budget on the whole wont get affected.

Inflation for the past 3 Months is down infact this month they are expecting deflation and according to WB barring this year next year Economy will grow to 2 % from next month.

Defence Export constitutes 3rd largest of all export for Russia , so no matter what they will spend on defence as its a major export earner for the country and thats how the MIC becomes more competitive considering they dont have to import any thing for it.

Russia does not need export figure of the size of US for the simple reason why India does not need the same , in US every project costs billlions and are companies are privately owned so they thrive on profits unlike Russia India or even China where MIC are mostly government owned and profits are reasonable

Check the cost of Tejas Program and PAK-FA program ( ~ 10 Billion ) and compare the cost of says Gripen Program or F-22/F-35 program , the cost difference is huge but thats how it is.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Aug 2015 08:06

Inflation still remains high, and if your currency is in a free fall and the global price of your main traded concern is free falling and that is a good thing???

The world bank's claim is based on a 2015 Oil price of $58 a barrel in 2015 and $63.6 a barrel in 2016 and even then they predict a decline in GDP this year, a flat GDP next year with growth in 2017. The reality is however that Oil is not going to get into the high 50's this year and the medium term outlook for oil prices is by most account LOW. NYMEX is below $40 and there are talks of it perhaps touching the $37 a barrel before the end of the year. There is no sign of global supply decreasing and if the Iran deal holds they will also enter the market with their own product. US Shale companies aren't really going out of business at a significant rate and the Saudi's aren't looking to cut production anytime soon. That $60 dollar of oil required to get a growth in the Russian economy in 2017 looks highly unlikely. In the long term it may force Russia to diversify its economy and that is a good thing for its people but in that time frame, unless the price of oil rises significantly (Like 40%) over the next couple of years they are unlikely to come out of this unscathed..and definitely not in growth mode.

Russia does not need export figure of the size of US for the simple reason why India does not need the same , in US every project costs billlions and are companies are privately owned so they thrive on profits unlike Russia India or even China where MIC are mostly government owned and profits are reasonable

Check the cost of Tejas Program and PAK-FA program ( ~ 10 Billion ) and compare the cost of says Gripen Program or F-22/F-35 program , the cost difference is huge but thats how it is.

You are comparing apples and oranges..The F-22 fielded a capability that the PAKFA won't get for a lot many years in 2005. If the Russians field a type 2 (or 3) PAKFA with new engines and get to clear all the weapons by 2020 that would be 15 years after the first 2 F-22A squadrons were operationalized. The F-35 and the Gripen? Are you serious? Thats a totally different aircraft capability and totally different set of technologies required to develop it. Even then the argument is totally besides the point..Russian economy is at the moment in negative growth. Oil, which is a very important commodity has seen a very steep price decline on account of high production, production that does not look like being scaled back. That coupled with sanctions and high inflation is a serious economic concern for the Russian economy. Comparing it to the US economy, Swedish economy or even the Indian economy is to totally ignore the facts that currently exist and through which the Russians must modernize their economy while at the same time trying to keep pace with modernizing their armed forces.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 08:16

brar_w wrote:Inflation still remains high, and if your currency is in a free fall and the global price of your main traded concern is free falling and that is a good thing???

The world bank's claim is based on a 2015 Oil price of $58 a barrel in 2015 and $63.6 a barrel in 2016 and even then they predict a decline in GDP this year, a flat GDP next year with growth in 2017. The reality is however that Oil is not going to get into the high 50's this year and the medium term outlook for oil prices is by most account LOW. NYMEX is below $40 and there are talks of it perhaps touching the $37 a barrel before the end of the year. There is no sign of global supply decreasing and if the Iran deal holds they will also enter the market with their own product. US Shale companies aren't really going out of business at a significant rate and the Saudi's aren't looking to cut production anytime soon. That $60 dollar of oil required to get a growth in the Russian economy in 2017 looks highly unlikely. In the long term it may force Russia to diversify its economy and that is a good thing for its people but in that time frame, unless the price of oil rises significantly (Like 40%) over the next couple of years they are likely to come out of this unscathed..and definitely not in growth mode.

Lets keep this thread for PAK-FA discussion , replied here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1890299

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 08:19

Lets keep this thread of PAK-FA discussion only , lets take any economy discussion on Indo-Russian thread shall we ?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 24 Aug 2015 08:31

Whether the Rouble goes high or low in currency trade may be irrelevant to Russia for weapon system development, but along with inflation, Russia also has a high consumer price index (CPI) too and that will have a negative impact on R&D.

If the allocated funds are spent on R&D for weapon systems for export purposes, then there are less funds for operations. With the US and NATO harassing Russia it is unlikely the Russians will cut operations budgets, rather they will cut weapon system development or ask another "friendly" country like China to fund the capex.

Defense exports for Russia accounts for about $15 billion/year. While the US arms manufacturers are in the business for a profit, they do have significant volume and offer very good pricing on weapon systems. The F-35 may be a turkey, but enough of them will be built to reduce unit cost.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2015 08:38

Mort Walker wrote:Whether the Rouble goes high or low in currency trade may be irrelevant to Russia for weapon system development, but along with inflation, Russia also has a high consumer price index (CPI) too and that will have a negative impact on R&D.

If the allocated funds are spent on R&D for weapon systems for export purposes, then there are less funds for operations. With the US and NATO harassing Russia it is unlikely the Russians will cut operations budgets, rather they will cut weapon system development or ask another "friendly" country like China to fund the capex.

Defense exports for Russia accounts for about $15 billion/year. While the US arms manufacturers are in the business for a profit, they do have significant volume and offer very good pricing on weapon systems. The F-35 may be a turkey, but enough of them will be built to reduce unit cost.

Lets keep this thread for PAK-FA discussion if you dont mind , I am sure US is a great country , Good Luck to you and brar