Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Austin
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Austin »

^^ I have skimmed through the article and though I get the idea what it tries to say.

Compared to IrAF , IAF has a laid back attitude when it comes to innovation and modification , the last major innovation done by IAF was the over wing A2A missile for Jags.

The MC/DP etc are done by DRDO which is itself and offset of Tejas program but that is more of substitution/improvement to replace Indian component to increase indiginisation content and perhaps also to reduce cost.

The Siva pod is one good example but thats rare and few in between and that too came from DARE , I would have expected the IAF to do work on CFT , Multi Carrier Bomb Rack & MultiCarrier Missile Rack for A2A missile , Integrating Python-4/5 and over head missile carrier if that is possible for MKI , Center Line 3000/4000 L Drop Tank.

Considering they are operating MKI for 15 years atleast they should have done some experimentation work doesnt matter if they succeeded or failed , Even thought DRDO would be working on some of these some where but the initative should come from IAF and the zeal to get it done , something IrAF does it on regular basis.

Instead all IAF specialises is building the next RFP for the next big induction and there is handful of it by now and making sure every Dots and I's of their ASR for Local program like Tejas and IJT ,Turbo Trainer is met if not they are not good for it.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Shreeman »

^^^IrAF==Iran*. You could say IDF-AF, but given at this point the media has decided IAF ==IDF-AF, so you better pick InAF for the home air force.

*used to be Iraq, when Iran wasnt to be named in the media. But now Iraq hasnt a force of any kind. And Iran issuddenly again a country.

edit -- on second thoughts, Indonesia might get upset, and Bangladesh if you use the B initial from bharat. Perhaps just Vayu Sena -- VS? We can live with vanuatu raising a fuss.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

Austin, how about listing what a SU-30MKI can become with Indian changes?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

That is the Super 30 upgrade.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by srai »

Karan M wrote:Hopefully, we will get here one day. Make our own complete Su-30 MKI upgrade in every sense.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-am ... 1701606283

In many ways our Su-30 MKIs are going on the same trajectory as Israels. Our local aerospace industry and avionics capability has grown by leaps and bounds thanks to the LCA. While dalals and assorted shills for imports will try to derail it , the effort will only accelerate with the Mk2.
This is what stood out for me. Very innovative! I wonder why new combat aircraft designs have not taken advantages of this fast pack concept a lot more inherently.
Image
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by brar_w »

This is what stood out for me. Very innovative! I wonder why new combat aircraft designs have not taken advantages of this fast pack concept a lot more inherently.
They do..They are now called Conformal Fuel Tanks. As far as other capability being designed into the FASTPACKS as depicted in the graphic, the need simply never arose. The F-15C community did not want to add more fuel at the expense of performance so the CFT was generally kept for the strike squadrons that have the Beagle.

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/technology ... fuel-tanks

http://aviationweek.com/awin/upgrade-fa ... ins-ground

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-con ... e_nr_2.pdf
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by srai »

^^^

I know about the CFTs, which are less versatile than the F-15 one. They all look more like an afterthought than inherent part of the design at inception.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by brar_w »

They are the same, I think its just the way the F-15 CFT's are installed may be something that gives that impression vs smaller airframes such as the F-16.


This - http://motty.hobbyvista.com/JAPKOR-TRIP ... _25-LR.jpg

vs This I guess - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _Flag2.jpg
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

SRai, the thing is the Israelis are tied at the hip to the Americans. They managed to leverage a ton of stuff the Boeing/McD guys come up with.
In our case, we face an uphill climb in just making the Russians stick to the terms of the agreement in terms of spares and stuff like ROH. So that ends up taking priority for the IAF versus focusing on the fancier stuff.

At the end of the day, like Austin said, the IAF also lacks a proactive R&D focused culture. They are predominantly focused on just being demanding customers and deputing some senior afsar in a likewise fashion (some exceptions have occurred but the overall culture remains the same). They also have no program in place to incentivize private industry or anyone else beyond import substitution.
This is also where Israel has a huge edge thanks to its world class avionics and weapons industry plus liberal funding for industry.

So the end result is Super 30 will be a mix-match of what Russia can offer from Su-35, what DARE can come up with. It will be a formidable platform but again, a lot will be dependent on what Russia can provide, like the radar for instance.

I wait for the day when we can make our Su-30s into something that is beyond what Russia can even imagine for the Su-class platform, with golden stuff like the non LOS SATCOM & battle management functions the Israeli F-15s have.

That will take a mindset change at the IAF level as well, about what they should & can do.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

Srai,
Since you get it, why don't you come up with ideas in Indian context that SU-30 MKI should have? You got it for the IDF made changes to basic design in their context which made sense for them.

KaranM, please work with him.
Thanks, ramana

PS: I get the sense that IAF is also realizing it has to fight and not just do fly pasts. So all ideas will be welcomed if not accepted.
They are not that bad. Recall they adapted An-12 to do carpet bombing. And many things no talked about yet.

I think nuke mission will revive them.


Can the SU-30 DARE deliver new weapon systems?

If we want to strike Lop Nor, what will it take to change the Su-30MKI?

Suppose KSA falls to ISIS? And Pakis hide their assets there as tactical depth. What then?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_20292 »

Karan M wrote:SRai, the thing is the Israelis are tied at the hip to the Americans. They managed to leverage a ton of stuff the Boeing/McD guys come up with.
In our case, we face an uphill climb in just making the Russians stick to the terms of the agreement in terms of spares and stuff like ROH. So that ends up taking priority for the IAF versus focusing on the fancier stuff.

At the end of the day, like Austin said, the IAF also lacks a proactive R&D focused culture. They are predominantly focused on just being demanding customers and deputing some senior afsar in a likewise fashion (some exceptions have occurred but the overall culture remains the same). They also have no program in place to incentivize private industry or anyone else beyond import substitution.
This is also where Israel has a huge edge thanks to its world class avionics and weapons industry plus liberal funding for industry.

So the end result is Super 30 will be a mix-match of what Russia can offer from Su-35, what DARE can come up with. It will be a formidable platform but again, a lot will be dependent on what Russia can provide, like the radar for instance.

I wait for the day when we can make our Su-30s into something that is beyond what Russia can even imagine for the Su-class platform, with golden stuff like the non LOS SATCOM & battle management functions the Israeli F-15s have.

That will take a mindset change at the IAF level as well, about what they should & can do.
After being engineering and RnD friendly, its going to take about a generation for them to become appreciative and encouraging of good UI/UX, which is increasingly the difference between an effective IT platform (like a modern day fighterplane) and a useless one.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

ramana wrote:Srai,
Since you get it, why don't you come up with ideas in Indian context that SU-30 MKI should have? You got it for the IDF made changes to basic design in their context which made sense for them.

KaranM, please work with him.
Thanks, ramana

PS: I get the sense that IAF is also realizing it has to fight and not just do fly pasts. So all ideas will be welcomed if not accepted.
They are not that bad. Recall they adapted An-12 to do carpet bombing. And many things no talked about yet.

I think nuke mission will revive them.


Can the SU-30 DARE deliver new weapon systems?

If we want to strike Lop Nor, what will it take to change the Su-30MKI?

Suppose KSA falls to ISIS? And Pakis hide their assets there as tactical depth. What then?
I think the big thing IAF wants (of DRDO, local industry etc) are weapons, weapons, weapons. They want PGM as of yesterday.
Based on what you asked I think it might be worthwhile to draw up a list of local PGM programs.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

A quick list

- NGARM
The new air-to-surface 100-km range tactical missile picks up radiation or signals emitted by radars and communication systems, homes on to the target and destroys the network. The missile’s front-end comprises a sensor to pick up various radio frequencies. It will be a single-stage, liquid-propelled system, sources said.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 327616.ece

- 100 km Glide bomb (with wings), 30 km without, multiple types in works
A 1,000 kg glide bomb designed and developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was successfully tested in the Bay of Bengal off the coast of Odisha on Friday.The bomb was dropped by an Indian Air Force (IAF) aircraft. Defence sources said the bomb, guided by its ‘on board navigation system’ glided for nearly 100 km before hitting the target with great precision.
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 579236.ece
The DRDO is working on developing glide capabilities on the existing bombs of various payloads including 100 kgs, 250 kgs and 500 kgs.
"We are developing glide bombs which can be directed towards their intended targets using guidance mechanisms after being dropped from aircraft of the IAF," outgoing DRDO chief V K Saraswat told PTI in an interview.
- Multipurpose light PGM - Nag derivative
Image
Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravjha/2 ... marat.html

- Astra Mk1 to be followed by Mk2
Mk1
BALASORE: India Thursday successfully test-fired beyond visual range air-to-air missile (BVRAM) Astra from fighter aircraft Sukhoi. The indigenously built world class missile was flight tested in full operational configuration against a live target propelling its quick induction in the armed forces.
and
The 3.8 metre long Astra is the smallest of the DRDO-developed missiles and can be launched from different altitudes. It can reach up to 110 km when fired from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when launched from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when fired from sea level.
http://www.janes.com/article/50108/drdo ... raam-tests
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by srai »

^^^

Saurav Jha had an illuminating interview with Dr Reddy (RCI). We get a glimpse of things to come.
Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat
  • MMW seeker for lightweight PGMs and next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM)
  • X-band seeker for anti-ship applications
  • Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications
  • IIR seekers with target acquisitions out to 6-7 kms
  • system on chips for smart bombs
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

The most interesting parts apart from the above is that both RLG-INS and FOGs for various applications are now mature and are being produced locally. They intend to make a ground variant as well. Clearly directed at the stuff like Pinaka etc for which we are shelling out a ton of money to Honeywell and Sagem.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by UlanBatori »

Question out of ignorance and laziness. What engines power the Su-30 MKI? What general specs? Who builds them? Who repairs/maintains them? Thx.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

Propulsion[edit]

The Su-30MKI is powered by the two Al-31FP turbofans, each rated at 12,500 kgf (27,550 lbf) of full after-burning thrust, which enable speeds of up to mach two in horizontal flight (about 2450 km/h at ground-level) and a rate of climb of 230 m/s. The mean time between overhaul is reportedly 1,000 hours with a full-life span of 3,000 hours; the titanium nozzle has a mean time between overhaul of 500 hours. In early 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar stated before Parliament that the Al-31FP had suffered numerous failures, between the end of 2012 and early 2015, a total of 69 Su-30MKI engine-related failures had occurred; commons causes were bearing failures due to metal fatigue and low oil pressure, in response several engine modifications were made to improve lubrication, as well as the use of higher quality oil and adjustments to the fitting of bearings.[53]

The Su-30MKI's Al-31FP powerplant built on the earlier Al-37FU, adding two-plane thrust vectoring nozzles are mounted 32 degrees outward to longitudinal engine axis (i.e. in the horizontal plane) and can be deflected ±15 degrees in one plane. The canting allows the aircraft to produce both roll and yaw by vectoring each engine nozzle differently; this allows the aircraft to create thrust vectoring moments about all three rotational axes, pitch, yaw and roll. Engine thrust is adjusted via a conventional engine throttle lever as opposed to a strain-gauge engine control stick. The aircraft is controlled by a standard control stick. The pilot can activate a switch for performing difficult maneuvers; while this is enabled, the computer automatically determines the deflection angles of the swiveling nozzles and aerodynamic surfaces.[54]

and
An estimated 920 AL-31FP turbofans are to be manufactured at HAL's Koraput Division, while the mainframe and other accessories are to be manufactured at HAL's Lucknow and Hyderabad divisions.
HAL does the maintenance.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

srai wrote:^^^

Saurav Jha had an illuminating interview with Dr Reddy (RCI). We get a glimpse of things to come.
Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat
  • MMW seeker for lightweight PGMs and next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM)
  • X-band seeker for anti-ship applications
  • Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications
  • IIR seekers with target acquisitions out to 6-7 kms
  • system on chips for smart bombs

I can't read the blog.

Please post the interview here.

Thanks in advance.
ramana
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

Karan M wrote:SRai, the thing is the Israelis are tied at the hip to the Americans. They managed to leverage a ton of stuff the Boeing/McD guys come up with. "
True. And the funny thing is we join at the hip with Israelis to leverage what they've done with the Boeing/LM stuff. But all this is unglamorous stuff for fighter jocks who really only want the latest stuff to pull out of the hangar so they can jump in and do pugachev cobras.

The whole logistics/supply chain/r&d is not a high priority. It should be.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Sid »

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karan M wrote:SRai, the thing is the Israelis are tied at the hip to the Americans. They managed to leverage a ton of stuff the Boeing/McD guys come up with. "
True. And the funny thing is we join at the hip with Israelis to leverage what they've done with the Boeing/LM stuff. But all this is unglamorous stuff for fighter jocks who really only want the latest stuff to pull out of the hangar so they can jump in and do pugachev cobras.

The whole logistics/supply chain/r&d is not a high priority. It should be.
I think its unfair and criminal to castigate IAF pilots like this. Like any other Navy or Army officer they all want to push thing forward and have great ideas.

But its the system that they work in (the way things are) which is a blocker.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_22539 »

^How come the IN has gotten past the "system," but the poor IAF has not?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by srai »

ramana wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

Saurav Jha had an illuminating interview with Dr Reddy (RCI). We get a glimpse of things to come.
Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat
  • MMW seeker for lightweight PGMs and next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM)
  • X-band seeker for anti-ship applications
  • Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications
  • IIR seekers with target acquisitions out to 6-7 kms
  • system on chips for smart bombs

I can't read the blog.

Please post the interview here.

Thanks in advance.
ramana
Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat
Friday , September 12, 2014 at 14 : 58

The brainchild of former President APJ Abdul Kalam, Research Centre Imarat is India's premier missile sub-systems laboratory. With a vast forested campus RCI is the jewel in DRDO's missile crown and is today an institution doing cutting edge research and development in missile guidance systems, control and actuation, onboard computing and even batteries. Moreover under the leadership of its current director Dr G Satheesh Reddy, RCI is graduating to full systems development for precision guided munitions (PGMs). Dr Reddy, a DRDO 'outstanding scientist', has numerous awards to his credit and is a leadinglight in the field of military navigation and sensing technology today. Geek at Large caught up with him in his RCI office...

SauravJha: Dr Reddy, do you feel that India's delivery capability is potent enough over ranges of 5000 kms or more, given that we presently lack a global navigation satellite system of our own and must rely on foreign constellations for updates to remove accumulated errors in the inertial navigation system (INS)?

Satheesh Reddy: Jamming or spoofing over the entire trajectory of 5-6000 km is not really a feasible proposition for anybody given the altitude and the orientation of the missile antenna. Moreover you would note that we are fielding systems that can receive multi-constellation updates. Receivers can also be designed to work in jamming conditions by employing things like null steering antennas. Yes it is possible that the signal itself may be turned off over a stretch approaching the target. Neverthelessthe ring laser gyroscope (RLG) based INS used in our long range missiles gives sufficient accuracy for credible strategic deterrence on its own under any circumstances.

Image
Fig 1: Ring Laser Gyroscope based INS + satellite receiver

SauravJha: Talking about tactical systems, what kind of optical gyroscopes are they using at the moment?

Satheesh Reddy: Fibre Optic Gyroscopes (FOG) mostly. Akash uses a FOG for example. In fact FOG technology is quite mature and FOGs arebeing produced in numbers. 200 FOGs for instance were recently delivered for the Akash program. FOGs are also being used for Tanks. We have FOGs of bias drift less than 0.01 degree per hourat the prototype stage currently. These are meant for ship based applications.

SauravJha: And what would you say about the state of RLG technology at RCI?

Satheesh Reddy: Well, it's 'state of the art'. World standard navigation grade RLGs are quite mature here.

Image
Fig 2: New MEMS based INS with satellite receiver

SauravJha: Where are these RLGs built?

Satheesh Reddy: They are built in and around the RCI campus.

SauravJha: Under a government owned company operated (GOCO) format?

Satheesh Reddy: Similar. Our first GOCO facility is actually the one that builds electrohydraulic servo valves.

SauravJha: Will the proposed new detector facility also be built on this campus?

Satheesh Reddy: No not here. In any case we aren't really being denied high accuracy focal point arrays (FPAs) nowadays.

SauravJha: Dr Reddy, the recently unveiled missile autonomy mission will see the development of tactical missiles that would clearly need seekers for the end game. In that context would you tell us more about the radio frequency (RF) seeker technology being developed here in RCI?

Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

Image
Fig 3: MMW seeker

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

SauravJha: PGMs of the kind?

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.

Continuing on the RF seeker front, RCI is also developing a Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications. This is a scaled down version of an existing active radar seeker developed by us and is a requirement for the Astra. System qualification is expected to commenceearly next year.

An X-band seeker for anti-ship applications is also being pursued very seriously and trials will be held in the first quarter of 2015.

SauravJha:Turning to IIR seekers, Dr Reddy what is the status of the new seeker for the Nag? Will it satisfy the Army's requirement of achieving target acquisition at a range of 4 km even in the most trying desert conditions?

Satheesh Reddy:That seeker is headed for trials this year. It can actually be used out to 6-7 kmsin better conditions.

Image
Fig 4: New IIR seeker

SauravJha: And has work begun on a two colour seeker?

Satheesh Reddy: Design work is under way. We expect it to head for developmental trials in 2016.

SauravJha: Dr Reddy, what is the state of atomic interferometry in India?

Satheesh Reddy: Work has started in Academic and Research institute s. The focus is currently on cold atoms etc.

SauravJha: Coming back to RF seekers, how would you characterize India's current manufacturing capability in this sphere?

Satheesh Reddy:There are at least 5-6 domestic companies now both private and public who are doing credible RF seeker work. With four of them right here in Hyderabad. BEL also has a very good RF practice. As I told you earlier the MMW seeker is already being produced by our companies.

Image
Fig 5: Electro-mechanical actuator (linear)

SauravJha: Dr Reddy to wrap up, what are the kind of munitions expected to have system on chips for their onboard computing requirements?

Image
Fig 6: System on Chip

Satheesh Reddy: Well, things like smart bombs.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_28911 »

^
Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry :!: . This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

So does this mean PGM's are already under-production? :?:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

Why don't you guys read the whole text? :p

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.

It says PGM under design & development, seeker in production. (Obviously if it wasn't then no protos to test right?)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

srai, Thanks a lot.

Can you or someone track all the seeker developments in a new thread?

Looks like some big convergence is happening.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Singha »

in these airshow vids looking up without a visual reference its very hard to judge how fast the a/c is going.
in the iron fist exercise, the searcher drone took some IR footage of a Su30 going around and it looked far more impressive against the backdrop of the ground.
for wow effect this is good too - vectored thrust vertical climb by a raptor within runway length https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouLsU7hHDTU
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:in these airshow vids looking up without a visual reference its very hard to judge how fast the a/c is going.
in the iron fist exercise, the searcher drone took some IR footage of a Su30 going around and it looked far more impressive against the backdrop of the ground.
for wow effect this is good too - vectored thrust vertical climb by a raptor within runway length https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouLsU7hHDTU
Would be great if newer video cameras could come with a ranging and speed measuring mechanism. If you can calculate the speed you can calculate the G force of turns.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Austin »

Chief Designer of MKI program died in Moscow

In Moscow, died founder of Su-30
On Friday, May 15, in Moscow, 73, died Aleksandr Barkovskii, aircraft, deputy chief designer of the Sukhoi Design Bureau. This "Lente.ru" said sources in the design office.

Barkovskii will be buried at the cemetery Vagankovsky May 18th.

Designer participated in the creation of almost all machines Sukhoi held today in service - a bomber Su-24 and Su-24M, Su-27M and Su-33.

The most notable achievement Barkovsky - development of the export versions of the Su-30. Su-30MKI and other machines of this series have become the best selling in the world of heavy fighters in the past 20 years,

Aircraft - the winner of the State Prize of the Russian Federation, in addition, he was awarded the title "Honorary Aircraft Builder" was awarded the Order of Merit, the medal "For Services to the Fatherland" II degree and the medal "In memory of the 850 anniversary of Moscow".
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_27581 »

TOI reporting Su 30 crashes 36kms from Tezpur, both pilots safe
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_28541 »

Another SU-30 MKI crashes in Tezpur .What is the reason behind the repeated crashes of IAF aircrafts ? Earlier it was the case of old Mig-21s going down , but in recent cases even SU-30s and Mig-27 are going down .Are we not learning from our mistakes or is it something else . Su-30s are been operated by other air forces in the world but never have such a bad crash ratio. Is it time to get concerned ?
shiv
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

rdesai wrote:Another SU-30 MKI crashes in Tezpur .What is the reason behind the repeated crashes of IAF aircrafts ? Earlier it was the case of old Mig-21s going down , but in recent cases even SU-30s and Mig-27 are going down .Are we not learning from our mistakes or is it something else . Su-30s are been operated by other air forces in the world but never have such a bad crash ratio. Is it time to get concerned ?
rdesai - all air force flying is far more risky than civilian flying. All air forces have accidents and crashes. Only the free nations with a free press report these crashes publicly. If you keep your eyes and ears open you will read about crashes in every air force in the world. Every time there is a crash there is a detailed court of inquiry that attempts to pinpoint the cause and see if it could have been prevented. Please take the trouble to read through the early pages of the "Flight safety" thread which was started by me because questions like your appear time and again on BRF.

I request BRFites at least to understand that there is no such thing as crash free flying in any air force. These pilots practice for war - flying in the most difficult conditions putting aircraft through great stress. It is simply ignorance of the Indian media and the lay public to think that only IAF aircraft are crashing while all other air forces are flying like QANTAS and Lufthansa with no crashes whatsoever. It is OK when BRFites do that but unfortunately our media too are so ignorant that they have no idea about what differentiates fighter or air force flying from civilian flights
ramana
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150520/j ... VvV8Sfn-ot

'Big thing' fell from the sky

Sarat Sarma


Nagaon, May 19: Nurjamal Hoque and his wife Abeda Khatun were having a chat in the backyard of their thatched hut this afternoon when a "big thing" was seen in the sky, metres above their heads.

"An item that resembled a bag fell on our hut. Within a few seconds, the big thing fell on a paddy field nearby. For quite some time, I could see nothing because of the smoke that engulfed the area and when I regained my poise, I found my wife lying near me, injured. Amid the smoke, villagers ran towards the site where the big thing had fallen out of the sky, right in front of my eyes," Nurjamal said, describing the sight of the IAF SU-30 crash at Pub Koladuba, locally called Baluchar, this afternoon.

The bag-like structure that fell out of the sky later turned out to be parts of the aircraft's wheel that fell on their hut and injured his wife.

The crash site was just 100 metres from Nurjamal's hut and the area caved in, making it resemble a dry pond. The villagers of Pub Koladuba initially thought something supernatural had occurred.

"It was difficult to believe that such a thing could happen. The remains of the fighter jet could be seen in the area that caved in," said a teacher of Pub Koladuba primary school, Ikramul Hussain.

Like Abeda, Inamul Hoque, 30, a neighbour of Nurjamal, was also injured after bits of the wheel fell on him.

Pub Koladuba is under Juria police station of central Assam's Nagaon district.

The crash site is 160km from Guwahati.

According to reports, the fighter jet left Salonibari air force station in Tezpur at 12.17pm with the pilot and the co-pilot. It met with the accident just a few minutes after leaving the camp.

The pilot and the co-pilot bailed out to safety in a char area, 10km north of Pub Koladuba.


Meanwhile Hindu's Y. Mallikarjun, reports that Astra flight test from Su-30 could be postponed to later date. They need three to four firings to qualify the missile.

Maybe spoken too soon..
Probe ordered
A court of inquiry has been ordered, officials said, adding that the aircraft accident investigation board was looking into the cause, based on which it would be decided if the entire fleet should be grounded for safety checks.
Philip
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Philip »

Fortunately the pilots survived.This is the 6th SU-30 crash since 2009.That's one crash every 3 years. Given the number of aircraft in service,one has to compare that stat with those of other aircraft worldwide,esp SU-30s. A pity as the latest Astra tests were due.Whether they will go ahead or not is the big Q.

Nevertheless,the aircraft that crashed needs to be identified as from which batch it arrived,the latest aircraft being manufactured with desi materials upto 70$ indigenous. Previous reports said that the service availability of the MKIs were hampered due to poor maintenance,spares shortage and engine problems.The global record of SU-30s in service with other nations must also be examined. Whether the aircraft was an "India built/origin" one,or from Russian import kits.

The aircraft came down 38km from Tezpur.
TOI xcpt:
As reported by TOI earlier, there are persisting problems over the serviceability of the Sukhoi fleet, which is down to about 55% due to engine problems, shoddy maintenance, poor availability and management of spares.
Other main factor for crashes in India:
Stats showed that one of the most common reasons for air crashes was bird strikes,on the increase due to slaughter houses and local bodies dumping garbage and debris near airfields. Anyway,the inquiry should ascertain the reason,technical or extraneous.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... ike-radars
As congestion increases, avoiding collisions between aircraft and birds is becoming a more pressing issue. The Indian Air Force, which conducts many operational and training flights and often at very low level, attributes around 10 percent of accidents to bird hits. It took the lead last year by issuing global bids to four companies for 45 bird detection and monitoring radar systems (BDRS) to be installed at airports and air bases across India.
As Shiv said mil. aircraft crash all the time.There is an interesting site recording all F-16 mishaps/crashes,could be done for all mil types.
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F ... year/2015/

Here is the global database for aircraft for 2015.Most are civilian.
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dbl ... 15&page=12
ramana
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

Philip Every issue/problem has four aspects: Technical, Systemic, Cost/Schedule and Emotional.

One can plot Technical along +X axis and Cost/Schedule along - X axis for they are directly correlated. The deeper the technical problem the more Cost/Schedule are impacted. Similarly we can plot the Systemic along +Y axis and Emotional along -Y axis. Again the deeper the Systemic impact of the technical problem the worse Emotional gets.

All investigations deal with Technical, Systemic, & Cost/Schedule. Emotional is the elephant in the room and its not dealt with or ignored.
In India its even more so ignored.

Coming to current Su-30 MKI crash the COI has been ordered and will determine if its systemic issue and ground the fleet. So DRDO should be able to go ahead with the Astra trials unless specifically told not to.

Also as the crash was soon after takeoff it could be a bird strike or some unique anomaly.

So bringing in pedigree of HAL mfg. without basis is FUD.
Karthik S
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karthik S »

Will the planes lost due to crashes be produced/bought to maintain the strength level?
ramana
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

usually they will order new replacements as Su-30 is being made by HAL.
Viv S
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Viv S »

Philip wrote:Nevertheless,the aircraft that crashed needs to be identified as from which batch it arrived,the latest aircraft being manufactured with desi materials upto 70$ indigenous. Previous reports said that the service availability of the MKIs were hampered due to poor maintenance,spares shortage and engine problems.The global record of SU-30s in service with other nations must also be examined. Whether the aircraft was an "India built/origin" one,or from Russian import kits.
So... desi materials/production is likely to be at fault?
member_22539
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by member_22539 »

^ruski stuff is never at fault, you should know that. Stupid SDREs, giving glorious ruskis a bad name by making shoddy versions of their flawless fighters.
keshavchandra
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by keshavchandra »

Today morning M2000 did touch down practice at the yamuna express highway.
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