Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Gyan
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Gyan »

These are routine issues and all equipment requires improvement due to service over decades. But perhaps it is being high lighted to justify super costly Rafale coming without ToT.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote: I don't get how poking small holes in ball bearings will lead to reduction of problem.

Maybe improves oil flow in the bearings.
:D Maybe poking holes in the ball bearing housing to increase oil flow?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by JTull »

shiv, as a golfer you must surely appreciate the dimpled ball bearings! These have been around for a long time.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

http://machinedesign.com/archive/dimple ... her-longer

A pitted surface can hold minute reservoirs of lubricant. Rolling action transports oil or grease to critical contact points inside the bearing.

Any golfer knows that a ball with dimples has vastly superior aerodynamic characteristics versus one that's completely smooth. Researchers at SKF have found that dimpled ball and roller bearings produce similar benefits in terms of lubricant flow.

This may result in a new generation of bearings that perform better than today's versions in less-than-optimum lubrication conditions.

Until recently, internal surface design of bearings had a narrow focus. With few exceptions most efforts went into creating smoother surfaces, and most theory was based on smooth-film calculations. Variations from smooth surfaces were approached strictly on a trial-and-error basis.

In the late 1990s, engineers began to take a closer look at surface effects because with advances in steel chemistry and bearing manufacturing, traditional metal fatigue was no longer the main cause of bearing failure.

Instead, surface-originated failures became more prominent. A large portion of these are attributed to the lack of a fully separating lubricant film that permits metal-tometal contact. Causes for an inadequate separating film include high operating temperatures, low speeds, and severe lubrication starvation which, in turn, trigger failure.

Researchers now have a good understanding about how surface conditions such as roughness, topography, and the direction of microgrooves all affect bearing lubrication. This is leading to the design of bearing surfaces that optimize performance and extend service life.
..............
The lubricant separates and protects the surfaces in most cases. However if, for example, the speed or viscosity is low or the contact is severely starved, film thickness will fall below 0.1 micron. The running surfaces will touch and metallic contact starts to destroy the surfaces. This reduces the life of a bearing.
................

Dimpled bearings
A bearing running under starved lubrication conditions requires a low lift-off speed and, in addition, the surface structure should be designed to enhance lubricant transport towards the inlet of the contact.

Researchers at SKF have investigated many different surface-finish alternatives with this goal in mind. To date, dimpled, golf-ball-like surfaces provide the most-efficient lubrication transport. The pits on the surface act as lubricant reservoirs, and rolling action transports oil or grease into the inlet of the contact.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by ramana »

I don't think they are talking about dimpled surfaces of the ball bearings.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

Same concept perhaps..micro reservoir of lubcricant
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Indranil »

I understand that this is a good description of why dimpled ball bearings is a good idea.
The pits on the surface act as lubricant reservoirs, and rolling action transports oil or grease into the inlet of the contact.
But, I think that the analogy to the dimpled golf balls is flawed. The dimples there don't act as pockets of air. Instead, the edges of the dimples work as vortex generators, similar to those that you find on many aircraft wings. They keep the boundary layer attached longer. On a spherical surface like the golf ball, this reduces the wake behind the ball, decreasing the viscous drag, and making the ball travel further.

Image

Image

In fact, one can find the same in nature, such as those on skins of acquatic creatures like sharks or whales (and speedo racing swimming suits).
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Sid »

indranilroy wrote:I understand that this is a good description of why dimpled ball bearings is a good idea.
The pits on the surface act as lubricant reservoirs, and rolling action transports oil or grease into the inlet of the contact.
Will this theory stand if ball bearings were perforated as mentioned by Mr Parrikar, not dimpled?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Indranil »

I don't know how the lubrication in the ball bearings improves with perforations/dimples etc. There, the question is how to create and maintain a film of minimum thickness. In the case of the golf ball, it is a question of how to displace the medium through which the ball is travelling more efficiently.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

JTull wrote:shiv, as a golfer you must surely appreciate the dimpled ball bearings! These have been around for a long time.
:eek: Whoa! First time in my life I am hearing of them
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

The SKF link posted by Karan is interesting. Basically it appears that in normal "smooth" bearings the gap between bearing and metal is smaller than the size of lubricant molecule leading to metal-metal contact and erosion. The whole thing looks like a desperately tricky engineering problem to me when something is spinning at 10,000 rpm :shock:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by JTull »

The dimples act as some oil reservoirs, but more importantly (like a golf ball) they help it spin more easily which helps in transporting lubricant.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

Now you will definitely get Indranil's BP up. :mrgreen:

IMHO, that comparison to golf balls in the article was just an analogy whereas the actual explanation was the other thing regarding lubrication.. it was more like dimples are useful for golf balls for aero reasons but here, they helped us in this way.. and hence are useful in many ways
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by JTull »

Ha ha. It is all about increasing the surface area so more lubricant sticks to it and increasing the thickness of film of molecules between surfaces so it's easier for each layer of lubricants to slide over the next - two requirements that work at counter-purpose but for this innovative solution.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Indranil »

Karan M wrote:Now you will definitely get Indranil's BP up. :mrgreen:
Ha ha ha :rotfl:. My friends think it's an annual event, but one never knows. Things have been changing with age :mrgreen:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Austin »

India, Malaysia to deepen defence ties, set up Su 30 forum

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 899463.cms
NEW DELHI: India and Malaysia plan to exchange notes on exploiting common military platforms and upgrading joint training exercises as part of a new thrust in defence relations agreed upon during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Kuala Lumpur.

While India has in the past trained Malaysian air force pilots on the Russian Su 30 fighter aircraft that is operated by both nations, the two countries have now decided to set up a 'Su 30 forum', a joint platform that will exchange information on training, maintenance and technical support of the fleet.

The potent Su 30 fighter - India flies the customised MKI version while Malaysia operates the MKM variant - is being operated in the largest numbers by the Indian Air Force that will eventually get 272 of the jets.

"We have considerable experience on the fighters and have operated them in all conditions. We can share our experience on things like maintenance as well as flight safety with Malaysia," an air force official told ET. Maintenance expertise as well as spares developed by by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics could also be shared with Malaysia, he said.

Besides the Su 30 forum, the two nations have decided to upgrade joint exercises under the Harimau Shakti series.

The war games will be progressively upgraded in the coming years to eventually become a tri services exercise involving the army, air force and navy.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Austin »

Extreme low pass by Anatoly Kvochur – in a Sukhoi Su 30

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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by abhik »

Karan M wrote: The frontline fighter jet SU-30MKI has seen 35 engine failures in the last two years forcing the IAF and Russian manufacturer to revise the maintenance drill and improve serviceability to prevent malfunction.
That seems like a phenomenal failure rate, assuming a fleet size of 200 i.e 200 * 2 = 400 engines, thats (35/400)/2 => ~4% failure per year. Wondering if the PLA AF are facing the same reliability issues, unlike the Su-30 an engine failure in the J10 would likely end in a crash.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

abhik wrote:
Karan M wrote: The frontline fighter jet SU-30MKI has seen 35 engine failures in the last two years forcing the IAF and Russian manufacturer to revise the maintenance drill and improve serviceability to prevent malfunction.
That seems like a phenomenal failure rate, assuming a fleet size of 200 i.e 200 * 2 = 400 engines, thats (35/400)/2 => ~4% failure per year. Wondering if the PLA AF are facing the same reliability issues, unlike the Su-30 an engine failure in the J10 would likely end in a crash.
http://idrw.org/another-j-10-crashes-an ... s-to-hide/
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Gyan »

One out of Six C-130s crashed, what does it say about it's reliability issue?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by JTull »

Gyan wrote:One out of Six C-130s crashed, what does it say about it's reliability issue?
Pilot error, not due to engine failure!
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

JTull wrote:
Gyan wrote:One out of Six C-130s crashed, what does it say about it's reliability issue?
Pilot error, not due to engine failure!
Well it was caught in a downdraft in the wake of the aircraft ahead of it. Whether the CoE declared that it was pilot error - I don't know. I don;t recall seeing any report to that effect. Did you see one?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by SaiK »

Austin wrote:Extreme low pass by Anatoly Kvochur – in a Sukhoi Su 30
[youtube]E-76JbGLhr8
why do they take this risk?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

SaiK wrote:
Austin wrote:Extreme low pass by Anatoly Kvochur – in a Sukhoi Su 30
[youtube]E-76JbGLhr8
why do they take this risk?
2 points

There is no extra risk (for the experienced pilot). Once the plane is airborne and well above stalling speed, retracting the wheels is not a problem. It will reliably stay in the air at 10 feet or at 10,000 feet. Remember that landing itself is a risk that every pilot takes every time he lands - flying in a machine weighing several thousand kilos approaching the runway at 300 kmph

Anatoly Kvotchur and Viktor Pugachev are legendary names in flying displays. Here is a Pugachev video in Aero India - the lowest and greatest Su 30 display I have seen live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMwHjipOSV8
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Manish_P »

@Shiv

Be that as it may, extreme low level flying does tend to have some more risks - thermal turbulence, restricted distance vision, FOD to engine, bird hit, risk of sensory overload and the worst of them all 'significantly less time to recover from a mistake/mechanical failure'
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by shiv »

Manish_P wrote:@Shiv

Be that as it may, extreme low level flying does tend to have some more risks - thermal turbulence, restricted distance vision, FOD to engine, bird hit, risk of sensory overload and the worst of them all 'significantly less time to recover from a mistake/mechanical failure'
I am not saying there is no risk. That is why the most spectacularly low ones are over runways. Turbulence is more likely when there are large aircraft taking off or landing or poor weather. Bird hits are deliberately minimized at all airfields.

The sensory load in flying straight and low over an airfield is no worse than at take off and staying low after take off. In fact there is nothing to watch on the ground - it is instruments and horizon all the way. It is only when they are descending and approaching the ground (or an aircraft carrier) that the sensory load starts getting higher.

There is no time to recover when flying at 500 kmph 10 feet above the ground - to that extent it is a risk, level flight is less risky than a flight that is coming downwards - even at 20 feet per sec. Airliners start their descent at about that rate. But if the speed at which a plane takes off is 250 kmph, accelerating at runway level to 300 kmph after retracting wheels should offer no extra risk unless the plane is pushed nose down or there is an obstacle up ahead. Flying is about risk that is why our pilots are brave heroes by definition. War is less scary than the ground approaching you at several 100 feet per sec.

The IAF regularly trains flying at 50 feet over the countryside - literally at treetop level and there are two incidents of touching something on the ground that I know of. One was my late cousin Suresh who was so low that his airflow apparently got disrupted by the muzzle gases of a tank main gun (and he was blinded) and his plane brushed a sand dune over Longewala. The other is Alfred Cooke who shot down 2 Sabres and damaged a third in 1965 over Kalaikunda/ IIT Kharagpur - whose wing brushed a treetop and he was told off by ground staff for picking up leaves on the wing before they found out what he had been doing.

Jagan's 1965 book has a description of how Gnats were flown t treetop level in the dead of night to avoid Paki radar after 4 Vampires were shot down over Chhamb. Flying at 10 feet over a runway in good weather in broad daylight is probably far less risky than 50 feet over trees and countryside in the dead of night/moonlight
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Manish_P »

Flying at 10 feet over a runway in good weather in broad daylight is probably far less risky than 50 feet over trees and countryside in the dead of night/moonlight
Agree. Totally.

Which is what i had intended to say, but couldn't quite put it across - Flying level at normal altitudes is far less risky than flying at 10 feet over a runway :)
One was my late cousin Suresh who was so low that his airflow apparently got disrupted by the muzzle gases of a tank main gun (and he was blinded) and his plane brushed a sand dune over Longewala.
:shock: Wow
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by BharadwajV »

Russia has expressed willingness to transfer technology of 332 components of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft under the ‘Make-in-India’ program.

These components, also called line replacement units (LRUs) refer to both critical and non-critical components and fall into four major heads such as Radio and Radar; Electrical & Electronics System; Mechanical System and Instrument System.

India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which manufactures the aircraft under licence from its Russian arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, has opened talks with the latter and the Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer, Irkut Corp., to enable Indian industries to manufacture the LRUs through transfer of technology (TOT) from the relevant Russian manufacturers of the components, the Times of India reported on Friday.

Russia and India have commenced discussion since last August on further TOT for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI under the ‘Make-in-India’ program to enable greater participation from the Indian private industry in defence manufacture, the report added. India will receive the full complement of 272 Su-30MKI aircraft by the end of next month. While the number of aircraft with the Indian air force increases, so also does the need for maintenance, repair and overhaul. With a planned service life of 30 years, the requirement for LRUs will only increase.

Vitaly Borodich, senior vice-president (military aviation), IRKUT Corp had told defenseworld.net during an interview earlier this year, “Of the 272 aircraft contracted by India, 222 aircraft will have been co-produced in India with HAL as our main partner.”

Borodich had said that India (HAL) has mastered licence production to the extent that certain critical raw material is sourced locally.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14723/ ... lxrjFUrLIV
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

^^ Amazing news. This is what happens when you have a person in the MOD who actually knows his stuff and wants to fix things.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by srai »

Yep. Positive news.

IMO, more of these sorts of additional maintenance ToT needs to be done as a next phase for other aircraft types as well like the Hawk, Pilatus, LCA and ALH (foreign parts), Mi-17, MiG-29K etc. Focus on increasing serviceability rates of existing inventory for the long term as it gets harder and harder to find parts in the international markets in the latter half of a product's 30-years lifetime.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Cain Marko »

Iirc under an earlier MOD, haL had turned down d deeper tot for the al 31 engines....perhaps parrikar can change that also
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Vipul »

Russia’s Sukhoi optimistic about Tata for India joint venture.

Russia's top aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi is exploring the possibility of investing in an Indian joint venture (JV) for the maintenance and spares production of its combat aircraft Su 30 in what could make India a hub for the fighter fleets operating in the region.

Atop Sukhoi executive told ETthat the liberalised foreign direct investment (FDI) norms have opened the possibility of a JV and the Russian manufacturer is in talks with Indian private sector companies.

"In the near future, we may establish a joint venture and create a unit in India for service and maintenance that can implement repair and overhauls of the aircraft and engines jointly. We can also cover all the other nations in the region and repair and service their aircraft in India," Valery V Chishchevoy, marketing director of Sukhoi, told ET.

The executive said while similar plans were discussed in the past, the recent changes in the FDI policy has opened up a real possibility of of setting up such a unit. On being asked by ET if Sukhoi would consider its traditional partner — Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — or other Indian players for the proposed JV, Chishchevoy said the Russian entity is in talks with private companies and that Tata is the only one with technical expertise.

"We are also open to other companies (than HAL). We have met some private companies on this issue but we have the impression that they don't have the experience to be involved in such a big project. Except for Tata, which has some good experience that also comes from automobile manufacturing, other companies are not yet capable to undertake this," the Sukhoi official said.

Maintenance and servicing of the Su 30 could mean big business, considering that the air force is believed to be spending well over Rs 3,000 crore annually on the fleet.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by SaiK »

It is JV, and not ToT
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 960633.ece
India-based JV being considered for supply of Sukhoi-30 spares

Image

India and Russia are exploring the possibility of setting up a joint venture in India to improve supply of spares for the Sukhoi-30 frontline fighter aircraft. The two sides are also in advance negotiations for a long term agreement for spares for the fleet, of which just over 50 per cent are operational at any given point of time.

“We recently got an inquiry from India for a long term spares agreement for five years. It will increase the serviceability of the aircraft. Spares contract will allow us to deliver to deliver spares faster once we get an indent from the Air Force,” Valery V Chishchevoy, Marketing Director of Sukhoi told visiting Indian journalists who are in Moscow as part of a media tour organised by United Aircraft Corporation of Russia.

The agreement will simplify the bureaucratic procedures for procuring spares and hence cut the time required to process any request from the Air Force by simplifying procedures like customs, bank guarantees, letter of credit and so on. The prices for spares and a method for price escalation will also be factored in, company officials said.

The idea is to eventually increase serviceability to 75 per cent for the Air Force’s Sukhoi fleet. Sukhois are the main stay of the Air Force but have poor availability due to spares and maintenance issues. Currently it takes 4-12 months from the time Air Force has a requirement to the time production begins in Russia after necessary approvals. The effort is to bring that down, Sukhoi officials said.

Earlier this year Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had informed Parliament that efforts were on to improve the serviceability rate of Sukhoi’s to 75 per cent by this year end from the current level of 56-57 per cent.

“We have been trying to improve the serviceability of Sukhois. It has improved by seven% in last 8-9 months to reach to 56-57 per cent,” he told the Rajya Sabha, exuding hope that it would go up to 75 per cent by the year end.

India and Russia started working on a long-term agreement in 2006 and eventually agreed on a technical assistance agreement in 2012 for aircraft maintenance and spares which brought down time of repairs of aircraft to be sent to Russia from 8-15 months to 60 days said Viacheslav Yu. Lozan, Director of After Sales Centre of Sukhoi. However both sides felt the need to further improve the availability of spares to increase the availability of the aircraft.

As part the spares agreement Sukhoi is exploring possibility of setting up of a Joint Venture with an Indian partner in India to ensure quick availability of spares.

Though the company is open for tie up with private players, Mr. Chishchevoy said that at the moment Indian private players are not ready to take up such complex technological work and added that they have had good experience working with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

India has contracted for 272 Su-30 MKI aircraft and the Air Force has already inducted over 200 of them with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited licensing manufacturing the aircraft in India.

Keywords: Sukhoi-30 spares, India-Russia JV
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Karan M »

Vipul wrote:Russia’s Sukhoi optimistic about Tata for India joint venture.

Russia's top aircraft manufacturer Sukhoi is exploring the possibility of investing in an Indian joint venture (JV) for the maintenance and spares production of its combat aircraft Su 30 in what could make India a hub for the fighter fleets operating in the region.

Atop Sukhoi executive told ETthat the liberalised foreign direct investment (FDI) norms have opened the possibility of a JV and the Russian manufacturer is in talks with Indian private sector companies.

"In the near future, we may establish a joint venture and create a unit in India for service and maintenance that can implement repair and overhauls of the aircraft and engines jointly. We can also cover all the other nations in the region and repair and service their aircraft in India," Valery V Chishchevoy, marketing director of Sukhoi, told ET.

The executive said while similar plans were discussed in the past, the recent changes in the FDI policy has opened up a real possibility of of setting up such a unit. On being asked by ET if Sukhoi would consider its traditional partner — Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) — or other Indian players for the proposed JV, Chishchevoy said the Russian entity is in talks with private companies and that Tata is the only one with technical expertise.

"We are also open to other companies (than HAL). We have met some private companies on this issue but we have the impression that they don't have the experience to be involved in such a big project. Except for Tata, which has some good experience that also comes from automobile manufacturing, other companies are not yet capable to undertake this," the Sukhoi official said.

Maintenance and servicing of the Su 30 could mean big business, considering that the air force is believed to be spending well over Rs 3,000 crore annually on the fleet.
The Tata group making Sukhoi spares = jingos dream list.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Philip »

This beggars the Q,are our DPSUs really able to absorb sophisticated aerospace tech? Look at the inordinate delays with the LCA,prod. issues,etc. Unless the pvt. players are tasked with supporting DPSUs,it's going to be a "long winter" for us to master the intricacies of producing cutting edge tech and products. a Tata-Ru tie up is excellent news. Tata's are already doing work for Sikorsky.They could easily manufacture the KA-226 LUH too.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by jayasimha »

^^^^
Hello sir, what illusion / guarantee are you carrying that by just by involving private players everything will be on time. look around the country. there are so many projects like bridges / roads etc.. entrusted to private players which are delayed beyond time lines. Even roosies are not above. You may be knowing delays in delivery of Adm. gorsh-cow.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Gyan »

Everybody prefers HAL, as the babus there will do nothing with ToT and imports will continue to flow with gravy train of associated bribes.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by SaiK »

HAL is a common enemy! ;)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Picklu »

Tata might be jingo wet dream but per chaiwala not for Armed forces. In fact they are under unofficial blacklist and that is one of the reason why the mounted gun jv with denel is not going anywhere, neither is FICV etc.

TIFWIW
[chaiwala info alert]
The regular playbook of drip feeding order as well as moving goal post was being applied in the one of the communication projects in which TATA was involved and they went to MOD asking them permission to export on commercial reasons since volume order with firmed up requirement was not coming. Obviously did not go well with services; they raised hell and since then Tatas are in the doghouse for any new major systems. Only repeat orders, subsystems and in some rare TINA cases they are allowed.
[chaiwala info alert]
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9 , 2014

Post by Lalmohan »

seems like faujis need to do some more masters in manufacturing courses for staff level afsars
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