Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

[chetak]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44466.html

IAF Sukhois lick Typhoons "12-0"

A similar thing happened with the jaguar exercises decades ago when IAF pilots, with a predominantly MiG and Su background, set NATO records consecutively for two years.

The goras were absolutely gobsmacked. The goras had a very very poor opinion of Indian pilots then, mainly because of their vile propaganda of "inferior russian aircraft" operated by the IAF and little did they know..........

[Austin]

A similar thing happened with the jaguar exercises decades ago when IAF pilots, with a predominantly MiG and Su background, set NATO records consecutively for two years.

Chetak , Any more details on this exercise

[Karan M]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44466.html

IAF Sukhois lick Typhoons "12-0"

A similar thing happened with the jaguar exercises decades ago when IAF pilots, with a predominantly MiG and Su background, set NATO records consecutively for two years.

The goras were absolutely gobsmacked. The goras had a very very poor opinion of Indian pilots then, mainly because of their vile propaganda of "inferior russian aircraft" operated by the IAF and little did they know..........

You can see the attitude on full display in the Rafale thread. Usual massaland soup-e-rear has appeared to tell 'em heathens and pagans about how things were different blah blah. Sore losers all.

[Philip]

The problem is that the goras have always come up against inferior opponents,much smaller nations who lacked the eqpt. and training .Why did the US not not bomb Syria? Because they knew that they would receive heavy casualties,pilots killed and captured,as the Syrians have good Russian SAM systems and would receive immediate assistance from Russia and China.Remember how a Chinese Silkworm missile smacked an Israeli missile corvette.The Syrians now have Yakhonts,though the Israelis did destroy a number in a surprise commando strike.

In the past little Vietnam,a nation of peasants,using Russian SAMs,MIG-21s and MIG-17s KO'd quite few Phantoms,etc. The situ will be very different if they ever try and take on Russia or China,leaving aside "friendly" India in exercises! Even OZ has a healthy respect for Russian milware,from Kopp's analyses.

PS: We should've sent our MIG-29Ks instead! They are supposed to be even better dogfighters.

[Singha]

this photo posted by PiBu (pyotr on afm lays to rest the myth of the Su34 having a kitchen and toilet in the back
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1161174493

there is a hatch for the pilots to enter and "room" of sorts in the back, but its all filled with avionics racks and batteries it seems. there aint no space for a toilet unless the hatch has a sliding door to open a IR style "hole in the floor" and the pilot squats on the floor or sits on a foldup toilet seat atop the hatch.

this pic proves the two door hatch has no such "hole" for the pilots to crap out of
https://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress ... 920-13.jpg

[Singha]

note the 12-0 is not being denied now, but the goalposts are being shifted to say the typhoons were just taking it easy in pigeon mode.

not sure what is so different about UK air space at 20,000ft that needs such handholding? the skies over europe are much less hazy than india and no fat vultures and such to ingest.

I could understand if it were jaguars going at treetop level over scottish hills.

[Karan M]

This is hilarious - guys - this should be a learning experience for all those who take these guys and their bravado at face value (SAS is the world's best, RAF is first etc as versus a more reasoned admission of parity) - at the end of the day, all bravado and bluster only.

From "nothing like this ever happened" they are now saying "hey we let it happen since we were introducing them to the terrain" (apparently the sky in the UK is very different and the Indians may have got surprised by seeing this new "terrain"). Now they are admitting it was a "pigeon shoot".

Sources from the RAF state, however, that Indian planes were being 'bedded in' to new terrain and effectively shown the ropes. The RAF were "introducing them to the airspace", putting the Typhoons up against the Sukhois in something more akin to a pigeon-shooting exercise , rather than a combat exercise, so the Indian pilots could get their bearings.

LOL - this is the best admission you are going to get that the Typhoons got their @ss kicked in WVR and it was a complete washout 12:0.

Once the IAF were comfortable flying in foreign air space the Large Force Exercises (LFEs) began and subsequently the RAF Typhoons proved more than a match for the Indian SU-30's.

Yet the Indians retained the edge.

So much for "more than a match". Even here, they have to be "economical with the truth", ie fib because they are now hard selling the Typhoon as being the world's best BVR plane (after the F-22 etc).

And since there was no data linking between the Typhoons and Su-30s no claims of how the soup-e-rear Typhoons gave all the info to the Su-30s either.

Speaking to Forces TV an RAF spokesman offered a polite rebuttal to the claims in the Indian press, saying:

"Our analysis does not match what has been reported, RAF pilots and the Typhoon performed well throughout the exercise, with and against the Indian Air Force."

Just to remind folks this was how much bluster and braggadacio, the then RAF Chief engaged in

http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html

"Well, they lost," was Stephen Dalton's response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.

However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison.

Dalton also indicated that the IAF inventory of Sukhois, MiGs and Mirages are no match to the Typhoons.

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.

More a salesman than a dispassionate observer at any rate.

And this is the crux of the issue.

The EF guys with the benefit of motivated leaks from the RAF etc were busy using such exercises to push the Typhoon.

If the truth comes out that despite all the paper specs and claims, its not a super-duper generation ahead uber fighter, many red faces. Ergo all this.

[Karan M]

note the 12-0 is not being denied now, but the goalposts are being shifted to say the typhoons were just taking it easy in pigeon mode.

not sure what is so different about UK air space at 20,000ft that needs such handholding?

Shhh Shhhh. The RAF let the Indians shoot them down. Stay with the program.

I could understand if it were jaguars going at treetop level over scottish hills.

Even in A2G some H&D issues.

We also simulated air-to-ground mission, and we have simulated EPW2 drops as well as Paveway IVs and the Indian AF has simulated a vast variety of weapons.

The Indians had a wider range of munitions for the Su-30 MKI? The horrors.

Matching/beating the EF in A2A. Surpassing it in A2G as well.

[Singha]

..but saar the typhoon is yet to get its "definitive" captor-E radar and meteor combo.

"nothing the IAF has or will have is comparable to that"

you wait saar, I will come back with EJ220 in a few years and thrash the life out you

[Viv S]

What are the adverse circumstances that pilots are placed in?

Perhaps an interception mission where weapons release is authorized only after visual tally.

You are coming across like a good golfer. The rules you have created for fighter combat exercises are normal in golf, and are also good to "show off" capability that is already known. When the US wants to "show off" the F-22 they do absurd things like making a fighter fight with one hand (the non dominant hand?) to give its opponents a fighting chance.

When you don't know the other team's capability - that is, you do not have a figure for his handicap, then it has to be one on one (or worse) with no holds barred. That way one side might really face "adverse circumstances" and be guaranteed to live and learn.

What I'm reminded here of is the 2007 exercise at Solenzara AB (in Corsica, France) between the British Eurofighters and French Rafales. All setups beginning at 18,000 feet and 350 knots (Mach 0.53). [Conditions that Air & Cosmos weirdly claimed were 'tailor-made' for the Typhoon.] Anyhow, according to the French the RAF got steamrollered with the final tally at 9-1 in favour of the Rafale. They reportedly couldn't handle the Rafale's low speed high AoA performance.

To quote Bruno Revellin-Falcoz (Dassault's 'Kelly Johnson'):

“Ultimately, we made some radically different choices. They wanted fuselage-mounted canards while we preferred to locate the canards almost above the wing-root. The key advantage of this configuration was that it would channel the air flow over the wing apex, which is where lift-generating vortices are formed. The Eurofighter Typhoon uses its canards as simple control surfaces. Although this creates a significant lever effect, it loses the positive impact on lift and therefore aerodynamic efficiency. That’s why we are certain that the Rafale can handle much better than the Typhoon at high angles of attack, such as during the crucial phases of dogfighting and low-speed flight. While they were groping around in the dark, we benefited from the know-how accumulated through the Mirage III Milan, Mirage III NG and Mirage 4000 programmes

Which for most was the last word where WVR combat was concerned until the following year when the French were visited by a pair of Luftwaffe EFs with the setups beginning at 30,000ft. The results this time were reversed with the German EF pilot identifying the EF's excess power at altitude as the deciding factor ('higher it is, the better it likes it' - or words to that effect).

[chetak]

note the 12-0 is not being denied now, but the goalposts are being shifted to say the typhoons were just taking it easy in pigeon mode.

not sure what is so different about UK air space at 20,000ft that needs such handholding?

I could understand if it were jaguars going at treetop level over scottish hills.

The UK airspace is very very tightly controlled because of the extremely heavy traffic. Flying in such highly controlled conditions has always been a challenge for those used to operating in more benign conditions and unfamiliar pilots very often have to undertake a few familiarizing flights in that environment before they can be unleashed on the unsuspecting public. There are active airfields every few miles apart through out the country, with very many operating commercial traffic.

[Karan M]

The UK airspace is very very tightly controlled because of the extremely heavy traffic. Flying in such highly controlled conditions has always been a challenge for those used to operating in more benign conditions and unfamiliar pilots very often have to undertake a few familiarizing flights in that environment before they can be unleashed on the unsuspecting public. There are active airfields every few miles apart through out the country, with very many operating commercial traffic.

Actually within those restrictions, the WVR battle is perfectly germaine (short range A2A) and the Typhoons had their clocks cleaned. Looks like the RAF were sitting on their plaudits and employing the same tactics as before, but the IAF was well prepared. On another note this bodes well for the T-50/FGFA having TVC as well.

[Philip]

These reports say that there is a toilet.Probably because long missions with in-flight refuellng are expected. Singha,the aircraft seen probably had some extra avionics for evaluation/testing.

http://defense-update.com/products/s/su-34.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34

The Su-34's most distinctive feature is the unusually large flight deck. Much of the design work went into crew comfort. The two crew members sit side by side in a large cabin, with the pilot-commander to the left and navigator/operator of weapons to the right in NPP Zvezda K-36dm ejection seats. An advantage of the side by side cockpit is that duplicate instruments are not required for each pilot. Since long missions require comfort, the pressurization system allows operation up to 10,000 metres (32,800 ft) without oxygen masks, which are available for emergencies and combat situations.[54] The crew members have room to stand and move about the cabin during long missions.[55][56] The space between the seats allows them to lie down in the corridor, if necessary.[54] A toilet and a galley are located behind the crew seats.[54][55] A ladder attached to the nose landing gear and a hatch in the cockpit floor is used to enter the cockpit. The cockpit is a continuous capsule of armour.[57] The Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS) acts as a command center: precision target designation of all onboard weapons is tied to the movement of the pilot's head and eyes

The IAF should acquire at least 2 sqds. of SU-34s for the China front. The most attractive factor,the cost,here mentioned as only $36M!

[member_27581]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 44466.html

IAF Sukhois lick Typhoons "12-0"

Typhoon FGR4: Britain’s best

Armament rating 8.0/10

Manoeuvrability 9.7/10

Max Rate of Climb 65k ft/min

Service Ceiling 65k ft

Max Speed 2.35 Mach

Fuel Economy 0.68 km/l

Unit Cost $125m

Probability of winning cannon dogfight 66%

Sukhoi su-30Mk1: Russia's best

Armament rating 8.5/10

Manoeuvrability 7.8/10

Max Rate of Climb 60k ft/min

Service Ceiling 56k ft

Max Speed 1.90 Mach

Fuel Economy 0.58 km/l

Unit Cost $47m

Probability of winning cannon dogfight 34%

With TVC, wouldnt Su be more maneuverable and more survivable in a dogfight.

[Philip]

Those performance stats were taken from one blog/source,not an official RAF/NATO source. Yes,with TVC things change,why as mentioned by an RAF pilot as Aero-India ,"nothing flies like the MIG-35".

[GeorgeWelch]

Actually within those restrictions, the WVR battle is perfectly germaine (short range A2A) and the Typhoons had their clocks cleaned.

It helps to apply a little critical thought to the situation. WVR is basically a coinflip. Missiles and seekers are too deadly, if you get that close, you're going to get hurt. Claiming absolute domination in that situation simply isn't credible in any sort of realistic scenario.

[Karan M]

Dude, you are the last person to advise anyone to apply any critical thought. as your ignorance of how the Su-30 MKI employs its TVC in combination with its missile and HMS combo speaks for itself. Enough said. Meanwhile as the Su's demonstrate their TVC to excellent effect, your JSF is proving to be more and more of a turkey in the visual arena.

[Austin]

this photo posted by PiBu (pyotr on afm lays to rest the myth of the Su34 having a kitchen and toilet in the back
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1161174493

there is a hatch for the pilots to enter and "room" of sorts in the back, but its all filled with avionics racks and batteries it seems. there aint no space for a toilet unless the hatch has a sliding door to open a IR style "hole in the floor" and the pilot squats on the floor or sits on a foldup toilet seat atop the hatch.

this pic proves the two door hatch has no such "hole" for the pilots to crap out of
https://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress ... 920-13.jpg

That Su-34 has toilet/kitchen is just a myth and debunked , What is has is space for the pilot to stand up and take a little walk in pressurized cockpit , also there is space between two side by side seat for pilot to lay down and rest.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

with a much enlarged side-by-side cockpit area more akin to a flight deck in a larger bomber, in a substantially enlarged and reshaped forward fuselage. Specific aims of the new design were to provide better ergonomics for long range / long endurance / high workload profiles, better sanitary conditions for the crew, facilities for the crew to eat meals on long duration profiles, and saving the cost of duplicated cockpit displays and instrumentation. The flight deck was to be fully pressurised, obviating the need for the crew to wear masks through the whole flight. The whole flight deck was surrounded by a welded titanium tub to protect the crew from ground fire.

[Karan M]

Austin, correct

BTW, for all the serious folk heres how the Su-30 MKI pilots use their TVC with their HMS and the HOBS R-73E missile combo, the combined package is what makes it far more capable than a conventional aircraft with a HMS and a HOBS missile.

Wing Cmdr Bharti at 1:40 onwards

[Singha]

ok Philip I will concede that if some of those avionics were extra could be room for a small chemical toilet on one side.

opens up prospects of taking biryani and pindi chole before a long flight and still be good

[chetak]

this photo posted by PiBu (pyotr on afm lays to rest the myth of the Su34 having a kitchen and toilet in the back
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1161174493

there is a hatch for the pilots to enter and "room" of sorts in the back, but its all filled with avionics racks and batteries it seems. there aint no space for a toilet unless the hatch has a sliding door to open a IR style "hole in the floor" and the pilot squats on the floor or sits on a foldup toilet seat atop the hatch.

this pic proves the two door hatch has no such "hole" for the pilots to crap out of
https://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress ... 920-13.jpg

That Su-34 has toilet/kitchen is just a myth and debunked , What is has is space for the pilot to stand up and take a little walk in pressurized cockpit , also there is space between two side by side seat for pilot to lay down and rest.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

with a much enlarged side-by-side cockpit area more akin to a flight deck in a larger bomber, in a substantially enlarged and reshaped forward fuselage. Specific aims of the new design were to provide better ergonomics for long range / long endurance / high workload profiles, better sanitary conditions for the crew, facilities for the crew to eat meals on long duration profiles, and saving the cost of duplicated cockpit displays and instrumentation. The flight deck was to be fully pressurised, obviating the need for the crew to wear masks through the whole flight. The whole flight deck was surrounded by a welded titanium tub to protect the crew from ground fire.

Sirji,

They have a portable chemical toilet. Same like many other military aircraft carry, space permitting.

The IN has such "facilities" on some of their aircraft.

[shiv]

That Su-34 has toilet/kitchen is just a myth and debunked , What is has is space for the pilot to stand up and take a little walk in pressurized cockpit , also there is space between two side by side seat for pilot to lay down and rest.

But you gotta admit it's got a seat for your girlfriend/wife. Turn one around and you have a love seat. Who needs to eat if u can get love and fresh air?

[Karan M]

Not a single credible Su-34 report in recent years states they have a portable chemical toilet or space for one. It seems to be a myth started when the program started and which has persisted. Pictures of its interior show it to be a fighter class pit as well, not some large surveillance bird.

[chetak]

ok Philip I will concede that if some of those avionics were extra could be room for a small chemical toilet on one side.

opens up prospects of taking biryani and pindi chole before a long flight and still be good

In a multi crew environment, there are very good chances that such a channa consuming crew member may not return alive. Davy Jones locker comes to mind onlee.

[Singha]

coringsby base seems like its in area 11 of the map.
perhaps the range is over the north sea
http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/UKLFS_Map.jpg

a cunning su34 pilot has to wait until his pindi chole member gets into the back room, then open the hatch and dump him out

[GeorgeWelch]

BTW, for all the serious folk heres how the Su-30 MKI pilots use their TVC with their HMS and the HOBS R-73E missile combo, the combined package is what makes it far more capable than a conventional aircraft with a HMS and a HOBS missile.

Sorry, being able to spin or flip doesn't make you invulnerable to missiles.

Missiles will always go faster and turn harder.

WVR is a coinflip and even very inferior aircraft can score kills

[Karan M]

Su-34 factory pics
http://imgur.com/a/c4FuN
Cockpit space
http://img.bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/files/ ... %B5%B5.jpg
You can enter the aircraft beside the front wheel
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1161174493

No pic yet of any such toilet etc except for the one of the Mir space station floating around on the net as the Su-34s!

The hump is probably for additional fuel and avionics

[Karan M]

BTW, for all the serious folk heres how the Su-30 MKI pilots use their TVC with their HMS and the HOBS R-73E missile combo, the combined package is what makes it far more capable than a conventional aircraft with a HMS and a HOBS missile.

Sorry, being able to spin or flip doesn't make you invulnerable to missiles.

Missiles will always go faster and turn harder.

WVR is a coinflip and even very inferior aircraft can score kills

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uplo ... _eater.jpg

More silliness.
Nobody is talking of invulnerability, that seems to be yet another foolish interpretation from your side unable to even demonstrate the nuance Bill Sweetman does when he refers to TVC as making it harder for missile guidance systems.

Its about taking the first shot. Now shoo.

[Austin]

But you gotta admit it's got a seat for your girlfriend/wife. Turn one around and you have a love seat. Who needs to eat if u can get love and fresh air?

Yeah All in the comfort of pressurised cabin

[Austin]

Among the must thing for all Su-30MKI would be

Must Have

1 MAWS
2 Internal Jammer/Towed Decoy

Should Have In Near Future

1 ) Meteor/Python-5/RVV-BD Integration
2 ) Astra Mk1/2
4 ) Brahmos/Brahmos-M/Nirbhai
5 ) Indian LGB/EW System/Pod Mounted EW/DIRCM
6 ) IRBIS/AESA Radar

Good to Have

AL-31FM1 Engine would add 2 T more Thrust and longer life witthout changes need to Flanker.

http://www.salut.ru/Section.php?SectionId=18

[chetak]

Not a single credible Su-34 report in recent years states they have a portable chemical toilet or space for one. It seems to be a myth started when the program started and which has persisted. Pictures of its interior show it to be a fighter class pit as well, not some large surveillance bird.

Sirji,

This is no biggie. The chemical toilet unit is under 5-6 Kgs give or take, IIRC.

It just needs a few strong points and some good quality nylon straps to tie it down.

Depending on the mission, it may or may not be carried. It may not even be a manufacturer designed mod but local crews are quite capable of doing this very simple installation and it certainly adds to crew comfort on long flights. One pilot may even catch a few winks in the back as there seems to be some space for them to stretch out and rest up.

All open source indications are that there seems to be an unusual amount of space in the back (for a military aircraft of it's type) and utilization of that space need not necessarily be specified, even if they store some empty bottles for the crew to take a piss in.

A lot of military crews carry empty bottles. When you gotta go, you gotta go, no?? or commercially available "Piddle Packs" or Urine Collection Devices

[brar_w]

BTW, for all the serious folk heres how the Su-30 MKI pilots use their TVC with their HMS and the HOBS R-73E missile combo, the combined package is what makes it far more capable than a conventional aircraft with a HMS and a HOBS missile.

Sorry, being able to spin or flip doesn't make you invulnerable to missiles.

Missiles will always go faster and turn harder.

WVR is a coinflip and even very inferior aircraft can score kills

There are many areas where TV helps in an air combat, just as there are many areas where high AOA helps in a dogfight despite of having HOBS/HMDt. Of course from a tactics and capability perspective there are ways to counter that if one wishes to but there is a tactical advantage, more in some envelopes of a fight, less in some while not being very significant in others - Yet an advantage none the less. As I said earlier, the US and through the X-31 the Germans that partnered with them have studied this through 1v1 dogfight between a turn-on--a-dime X-31 and F-16 and F/A-18, and that led to many things in terms of technology demonstration and investment into further research (The Europeans developed a 3D TV system for the EJ-200, while the US continued to study the effects of TV on air combat)..However that area has not been an investment driver for them, the Euro-partners have continued to invest in buying and building up an inventory of the latest generation AMRAAM (I am talking about investments post TV development and study), designing and building the Meteor Long range Weapon, taking the WVR engagement to the fringes of BVR with the ASRAAM, developing E-SCAN radars (AESA) etc etc etc. There is only so much money to go around and every system must pick and choose between areas of investment. When you take that and throw your investment against a highly agile, world-class dogfighter in the Su-30 you will at a disadvantage unless you keep things in your favor using a host of measures. Therefore it is not surprising that the Su-30MKI did so well, thats an area where it is really really good and has possibly achieved perfection as far as manned close range aerial combat is concerned.

The West knows this that is why I had mentioned this should come as no surprise. They also know that at half the price even an F-16 can hold an F-15 at bay and just take it out in a turn in WVR..Simply put for BVR optimized designs, its best to hold an edge in BVR and unfortunately for the British the Typhoon without an AESA and without an operational (with the RAF) Meteor does not show up with the best capability it can. They have failed to keep their aircraft updated, its simple as that.

There are some simple lessons learned from this. For the IAF it is that it need not fear the Typhoon in a close in engagement and it need not fear it in BVR either given the current state of the aircraft. For the RAF the lessons learnt were to either develop better WVR tactics, get upgrades such as those demonstrated recently, or the 3DTV system developed by the Spanish or upgrade their aircraft to hold a significant advantage in BVR so as to diminish the need to be in WVR or at least to dictate the WVR engagement if it happens. This would mean to finally operationalize the AESA, and the Meteor and perhaps upgrade the EW system. The British also learned that in BVR given their current state they cannot defeat the Su-30 (with its huge radar) when both employ missiles with equal range..Therefore the investment drivers for them would be to develop or operationalize long range missiles and to continue to train in the 40+ k feet mach 1.3 - mach 1.5 area where they perform very well. Every aircraft has its limitations and you must design around those limitations and feed the strengths to make sure that edge is still relevant as time goes by.

As I said the Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope...If they want to keep it relevant they must upgrade...The current state of the Su-30MKI is after years of design evolution at the hands of Sukhoi and systems integration demands of the IAF..Add to that the level of capability and experience that the MKI pilots bring to the table and you have a successful weapons system. The Typhoon on the other hand has as a program succeeded in developing and demonstrating a lot of capability but its partner operators have been less enthusiastic in buying into that capability. If they do they would eventually create a mode advanced and overall better weapons system. It takes time, money, and the willingness to do it..The IAF has shown it, the RAF has not !!

[Viv S]

Simply put for BVR optimized designs, its best to hold an edge in BVR and unfortunately for the British the Typhoon without an AESA and without an operational (with the RAF) Meteor does not show up with the best capability it can. They have failed to keep their aircraft updated, its simple as that.

The Meteor will be operational in 2018 with the Typhoon (though the Aim-120-C5 is still a fairly decent BVR weapon). Same for the Captor-M, while the AESA (scheduled to be operational in 2022) should provide a substantial bump in capability, the existing set is considered quite effective at pure air-to-air functions.

As I said the Typhoon is a similar design philosophy to the F-15C and the F-22A, i.e.. a lot of emphasis on acceleration, climb, 40,000+ feet altitudes and the turn fight..Not so much on the mid-lower altitude, close quarter dogfighting side of the envelope...If they want to keep it relevant they must upgrade...

Precisely. BVR combat is in many respects is similar to WVR combat, just at hugely extended ranges. Try to launch first, impart maximum energy to your weapon and thereafter manoeuvre hard and fast to get out of your opponent's FoV (the last one is less of an issue with the F-22).

For a standard head-on engagement, I'd expect the fighter to launch a 'spoiler' the instant the first track is generated (to mess up the adversary's mid-course updates), followed by an immediate climb at full throttle to maximize energy at launch, in turn followed by a hard bank either way (F-pole manoeuvre) arcing a wide path to close onto the other guy's flanks for a final shot. (Staying at high altitude throughout to reduce the range of a hostile missile.)

[Austin]

Su-30 too would have learnt its lesson and upgrade for 30 is also very comprehensive involving AESA , MAWS , EW , Weapons system upgrade , A planned upgrade of Engine to AL-31FM1 standard would certainly help its raw flying qualities.

[brar_w]

Austin, Is the upgrade to AESA confirmed? If so, how extensively has it been flight tested?

[Austin]

Austin, Is the upgrade to AESA confirmed? If so, how extensively has it been flight tested?

IAF wants an AESA but the package is under discussion , either upgrade to IRBIS standard keeping exisiting BARS antenna but replacing the entire backend or opt for ZHUK-AE or NIIP AESA.

The IAF is taking easy on upgrade as the current Mk3 standard of MKI with the other soft and EW upgrade is quite comprehensive on its own , there is the Brahmos Integration thats next on the card.

Things like servicibility and indiginisation would be a much higher priority as well Indian weapons systems like ASTRA

Personally I think all the current MKI needs is a good MAWS and Internal jammer , that should do well for the next 10 years with what IAF can face in this region.

[Singha]

given the distinct lack of interest in the 4 owner countries to fund the eurofighter updates vs the amt of effort usaf still puts to keep its F-16 and F-15 at the leading edge...one is doubtful if the meteor will be produced and deployed in numbers and same for the captor-M.

with no real war in sight and spain, royal navy and italy probably all going into a middle east or african war with JSF from their LPD ships....and the trusty old tornados ofcourse as paveway bomb trucks.

[Viv S]

IAF wants an AESA but the package is under discussion , either upgrade to IRBIS standard keeping exisiting BARS antenna but replacing the entire backend or opt for ZHUK-AE or NIIP AESA.

The fact that they haven't signed a deal for the Irbis (or even the Zhuk), I'd say suggests that they're focused on an AESA derived from the PAK FA's N036 and nothing less.

[Viv S]

given the distinct lack of interest in the 4 owner countries to fund the eurofighter updates vs the amt of effort usaf still puts to keep its F-16 and F-15 at the leading edge...one is doubtful if the meteor will be produced and deployed in numbers and same for the captor-M.

with no real war in sight and spain, royal navy and italy probably all going into a middle east or african war with JSF from their LPD ships....and the trusty old tornados ofcourse as paveway bomb trucks.

The Captor-E is a bit iffy at this point, but the Meteor orders are quite secure. Its a BAE led program and evolved out of a UK MoD contract. The Brits ordered enough Aim-120-C5s to tide them over till it came around, the Meteor has always been intended to as the default British and German air-to-air weapon. For the EF and F-35. Its sort of like the Astra is to us.

The Tornado is set to be gradually phased out from RAF service by 2019 and IIRC from the Luftwaffe by 2020. From what I understand, the newer EF T3s are to take over the Tornados strike roles (hence the Storm Shadow/Taurus/Brimstone integration) while the older T1s & T2s retain air defence roles.

[GeorgeWelch]

unable to even demonstrate the nuance Bill Sweetman does when he refers to TVC as making it harder for missile guidance systems.

Even great advantages in aerodynamic performance only lead to minor variations in success rate WVR

The absolute best you can hope for is something like a 75/25 advantage, and that's against a complete dog of an aircraft, which the EF is not.

Its about taking the first shot.

1. No aerodynamic advantage can completely guarantee you getting the first shot
2. Even if you get the first shot, if they can their shot off before getting hit, you're just as dead.