Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 21 Aug 2014 07:46

^^^^^^

"Order"s will no longer do.

"Export" is the new in-word.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 21 Aug 2014 22:02

Domestic orders before Export orders is a necessity.

After digesting 1000+ T-90 tin cans, I doubt any army will have an appetite or budget for Arjun. Shining example of foreign led UPA and Import lobby firepower - only possible in India. Some hopes still lingering in New Army chief and Modi govt, but realistically opportunities come once in a lifetime.

Unless we see an order for 500 Arjun MK II within a year, even DRDO will close this project. We will be dependent on Russia for next 25~50 years for tanks ammo, engines and what not. Imagine in 2025 a 1.5 billion strong India dependent on 150 million strong Russia for its key strike power (10 % our population). Not been anti Russia but just seeing things out of balance here.

May be we can use it for closing gates at Wagah border now. Definitely want to see the look on Paki faces when an Arjun rolls to the gate and closes it with it's 'trunk'. Pakis will go begging next moment

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Aug 2014 21:32

JANES: Syria enhances T-72 protection

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 23 Aug 2014 21:42

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/how-in ... ada62af8b9

Our IA is also thinking on similar lines but nothing so drastic

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 24 Aug 2014 00:13

Regarding russian tank biathlon, weren't we running in top 3 in the first few rounds? and Chinese last...What went wrong in last few days?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 29 Aug 2014 14:59

Tarmak007 @Facebook
12 mins ·
@DAC
* 197 helicopter deal scrapped.
* 118 MBT. Arjun mark II tanks deal worth 6600 crores cleared.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Aug 2014 15:13

Yep 118 Arjun Tank Mk2 cleared. It was supposed to be 126, right?

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 15:20

42 arjun catapult cleared

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 15:22

ANI @ANI_news 1h
DAC approved army communications system which will provide dedicated mobile systems for 3 corps, 4 corps & 14 corps with 900 crores:Sources

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 16:02

Vishal Thapar @thaparvishal 34m
@arunjaitley-led Defence Acquisition Council clears purchase of 118 Arjun Mk-II tanks & 40 catapult guns (130mm) mounted on Arjun chassis

Mods excuse me posting pictures from unmentionables blog.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 29 Aug 2014 17:11

118 Arjun Mk-II tanks & 40 catapult guns (130mm) mounted on Arjun chassis

+1

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 29 Aug 2014 18:22

118 Arjun tank for 6600 crore. Roughly $10 million a piece. Definitely not cheap.
Some negotiation needed for some price reduction

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2014 18:25

How many Arjuns would be inducted - all Marks?

(You want cheap Arjuns - simple - order more. Even with foreign content it will get cheaper. Replace that with local content as time goes on - build a local eco for tanks and paves the way for the next gen tank too.)

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 19:11

dhiraj wrote:118 Arjun tank for 6600 crore. Roughly $10 million a piece. Definitely not cheap.
Some negotiation needed for some price reduction

Every conjuse Abdul has to understand one fact that arjun mk2 has been kitted with everything that is available and associated with the armoured world except a turbojet engine to fly. So the price is more wen compared to other tin cans.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Aug 2014 19:28

chackojoseph wrote:Yep 118 Arjun Tank Mk2 cleared. It was supposed to be 126, right?

Pressure on the Ground - August 2012

Director, CVRDE, Dr Sivakumar, gives us the low-down on the Arjun programme.

What is the status of the Arjun Mk-2 programme currently?

The Arjun Mk-1 with a total of 89 improvements decided upon with the Army, is called the Arjun Mk-2. These 89 improvements have been made not only keeping in mind the concerns and issues faced on the Arjun Mk-1 tank but also to cater for future requirements of the army. At present, the army has decided to induct 118 Arjun Mk-2 tanks instead of 124. This is the result of a policy decision that will see the war reserve for all armoured regiments in the future being reduced by three. And so, two regiments of Arjun Mk-2 will be short of six reserve tanks. The indent for 118 tanks is almost in the final stage.
...

What is the status of the Arjun Mk-1 at present?

The Arjun Mk-1 received orders for a total of 124 numbers. The two regiments equipped with 45 Arjun tanks each, are the 43rd armoured regiment and the 75th armoured regiment at Jaisalmer. The Arjun is fully operational with these two regiments now. The balance 34 tanks will be used to meet the Army’s BRIC requirements and these are spread across the Corps of Electronics & Mechanical Engineers (EME), war reserve, training establishments, DRDO/DGQA etc. Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) Avadi has dispatched 116 Arjun Mk-1 tanks. The remaining eight tanks will be delivered over the next five to six months.
...

Total so far:

124 Arjun MBT Mk.1 (delivered by end-2012/early-2013)
118 Arjun MBT Mk.2 (deal cleared today as per Tarmak007)
40 Arjun 130mm Catapult (deal cleared today as per Vishal Thapar)

Future (potential):

100? Arjun 155mm SPH
xx Arjun ARV
xx Arjun BLT
118? Arjun MBT Mk.2 (follow on order?)

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 29 Aug 2014 19:44

ravip wrote:So the price is more wen compared to other tin cans.

Yes Sir, in fact there should be more order for Arjun tank

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 20:01

dhiraj wrote:
ravip wrote:So the price is more wen compared to other tin cans.
Yes Sir, in fact there should be more order for Arjun tank

Arjun project fails to control its unit cost.

one T96a costs only less than 1M USD(6M RMB),
one Chinese T99a costs 3M USD(20M RMB).
one T72/T90 costs 1-3 M USD,according its configures

one Japanese T90 costs 8 M USD and was once most expensive MBT in the world.

however, one Arjun costs 8-10M USD and is even more expensive than Japanese T90,in fact it is the most expensive MBT in the world.

so many components of Arjun has to be imported from foreigne countries at market price,while Russia,China ,USA have almost all components of their MBT indigenious and get compoenents at quite favourable price.
that is why Russia,CHina and USA can control the unit cost of their MBT while India fails.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Aug 2014 20:09

10 million USD is pretty standard for current generation westen ("style") tanks.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 20:21

abhik wrote:10 million USD is pretty standard for current generation westen ("style") tanks.

one China's T96 costs 1M USD(6M RMB)
one Russia's T80U costs 2.2M USD;
one RUssia's T90 costs 2M USD:
one CHina's T99A costs 3M USD(20M RMB);
One German leopard2a6 costs 3.3M USD;
One UK's Chanllengers2 costs 5.1M USD;
One French Leclerc costs 6M USD;
one USA's M1A2SEP costs 6M USD;
One Japanese T90 cost 8.8M USD;

.......

One India Arjun costs 10M USD.

congradulations!......finallly ,India has managed to win a world champion....

BTW, one CHinese T99a costs 3M USD(20M RMB) ,but CHinese PLA still thinks T99A is too expensive and T99a fleet ,as one high-end MBT, are deployed in limited elite units of PLA.

how can Indian people here still think that 10-M-USD Arjuer is still economical acceptable,while India defence budget is just less than 1/4 of PLA???

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2014 20:24

Liu,

We get it. Long back.

Anything else, substantial, to say?

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 20:38

NRao wrote:Liu,

We get it. Long back.

Anything else, substantial, to say?

anyway,

the officials of India defence minist know that Arjun's cost-perfromace is extremely poor and it is not acceptable economically ......so they don't want to order too many Arjun and would rather buy better cost-performanced Russia T90 with their limited budget.
however, despite of its poor cost-performance, Arjun still the sole hope of India indigenious tank industry...so in order to make the project Arjun alive and make indian tank industry alive, india defence minist has to order limited Arjun......

that is all....

Before india succeeds in controlling the cost-performance of Arjun, Arjun can not replace T90 as the main Tank fleet of India army.

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 29 Aug 2014 20:39

We don't know what else is included other than 118 units of Arjun MkII for Rs. 6600 crore.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Aug 2014 20:43

Tin can > cheap
Chinese Tin Can > supel cheap

Just for the lulz sake Guinness world record for the most expensive Tank

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 20:49

hecky wrote:We don't know what else is included other than 118 units of Arjun MkII for Rs. 6600 crore.

the poor cost-performance of Arjun is not he sole example of India defence industry...
in fact,
almost all indian indigenous weapons projects fail to control its cost, including LCA , P17/15 DDG and AC.

why??

it is because sooo many key components of those indian "indigenous projects" has to be imported from foreign countries at premium price .....

when USD and India rupees being devalued rapidly , the price of those key components are rocketing up too...

Morever, the delivery of those ordered key components is often delayed, which causes the suspenion of the whole projects...such as india's AC project and P17 DDG project.

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 29 Aug 2014 20:50

Liu wrote:
abhik wrote:10 million USD is pretty standard for current generation westen ("style") tanks.
one China's T96 costs 1M USD(6M RMB)
one Russia's T80U costs 2.2M USD;
one RUssia's T90 costs 2M USD:
one CHina's T99A costs 3M USD(20M RMB);
One German leopard2a6 costs 3.3M USD;
One UK's Chanllengers2 costs 5.1M USD;
One French Leclerc costs 6M USD;
one USA's M1A2SEP costs 6M USD;
One Japanese T90 cost 8.8M USD;

.......

One India Arjun costs 10M USD.

congradulations!......finallly ,India has managed to win a world champion....

BTW, one CHinese T99a costs 3M USD(20M RMB) ,but CHinese PLA still thinks T99A is too expensive and T99a fleet ,as one high-end MBT, are deployed in limited elite units of PLA.

how can Indian people here still think that 10-M-USD Arjuer is still economical acceptable,while India defence budget is just less than 1/4 of PLA???

Because it is generations ahead of tin can rip offs inducted in pla. This is for your undignified sarcasam in comparing arjun with t99 a to z inducted in pla. Pls don't worry abt d cost you have to only worry abt its capabilities.

To answer your query as sane indian it is this, there is something called economies of scale and considering this is just the second batch order of a tank which has still some foreign content the price is justified. Costs doesn't matter unless the products are indegenious bcoz we are at least saving foreign exchange and building a national capability.

VibhavS · Post by **VibhavS** » 29 Aug 2014 20:51

Liu wrote:
NRao wrote:Liu,

We get it. Long back.

Anything else, substantial, to say?
anyway,

the officials of India defence minist know that Arjun's cost-perfromace is extremely poor and it is not acceptable economically ......so they don't want to order too many Arjun and would rather buy better cost-performanced Russia T90 with their limited budget.
however, despite of its poor cost-performance, Arjun still the sole hope of India indigenious tank industry...so in order to make the project Arjun alive and make indian tank industry alive, india defence minist has to order limited Arjun......

that is all....

Before india succeeds in controlling the cost-performance of Arjun, Arjun can not replace T90 as the main Tank fleet of India army.

Nice attempt at trolling

but if you really look at the numbers produced.. Not accurate to the last tank but more like an indicator

Leopard 2 - 3000+
Abrams - 7000 - 8000
Type 99 - 700+
Type 96 -Estimated 2000+

Arjun Mark 2 - 116..

There is no comparison.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 29 Aug 2014 20:53

MK 2 got most expensive toys which you can buy from Isreal and Sweden. Their direct import will add to the overall cost. Please check navigation and optronics from Elbit, self protection systems (very costly).

But for god's sake dont compare it to Chinese tin cans. And please stop this crap on what cannot afford it.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 21:02

Sid wrote:MK 2 got most expensive toys which you can buy from Isreal and Sweden. Their direct import will add to the overall cost. Please check navigation and optronics from Elbit, self protection systems (very costly).

But for god's sake dont compare it to Chinese tin cans. And please stop this crap on what cannot afford it.

economically unacceptabe toys are just the Arts &crafts for exhibition or shows,not for wars.

in fact, British Empire's grand Navy was not sunk by enemy,but by the cut-off the budget;

USA's cut-off of budget also sunk more aircraft and navy fleet than any enemy.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 29 Aug 2014 21:08

VibhavS wrote:
Liu wrote: anyway,

the officials of India defence minist know that Arjun's cost-perfromace is extremely poor and it is not acceptable economically ......so they don't want to order too many Arjun and would rather buy better cost-performanced Russia T90 with their limited budget.
however, despite of its poor cost-performance, Arjun still the sole hope of India indigenious tank industry...so in order to make the project Arjun alive and make indian tank industry alive, india defence minist has to order limited Arjun......

that is all....

Before india succeeds in controlling the cost-performance of Arjun, Arjun can not replace T90 as the main Tank fleet of India army.
Nice attempt at trolling but if you really look at the numbers produced.. Not accurate to the last tank but more like an indicator

Leopard 2 - 3000+
Abrams - 7000 - 8000
Type 99 - 700+
Type 96 -Estimated 2000+

Arjun Mark 2 - 116..

There is no comparison.

the production of Leopard2,Abrams started in 1980s-1990s and almost ceased after 2000.
the production of T99 and T96 started almost after 2000 and is still going one...

in fact, the production of MBT in west countries almost all has stopped.

every year, CHina now produces more MBT than the combined one of the rest countries in the world .

Ranjani Brow · Post by **Ranjani Brow** » 29 Aug 2014 21:13

Liu wrote:the poor cost-performance of Arjun is not he sole example of India defence industry...
in fact,
almost all indian indigenous weapons projects fail to control its cost, including LCA , P17/15 DDG and AC.

You have repeat the same "cost-performance" ratio for the third time in your last three posts. Please can you tell me on what performance parameters you judged and evaluated Arjun and arrived at your conclusion. I hope it's not just conjecture.

You are poorly informed or just a troll.

-- Around Rs 7000 crore have been spent on Tejas Mk1 development since 1985 and projected final development cost is Rs 7965 crore (till FOC). In addition to this Rs 2432 crore is being allocated for Tejas Mk2 development and Rs 3650 crore for Naval varient.

Cost of 1 LCA is ~ Rs 200 Crore ($33 million).

-- Cost of 3 x P-15A is Rs 11662 crore (excluding the weapons). It is less than 3 times that of T-45 of Royal Navy.

-- We don't know the actual 'unit' cost and we still don't know the final configuration for Arjun MkII as it's still in trials. See this: Qatar ordered 24 Pz-2000 and 62 Leo2 for $2.5 billion.

VibhavS · Post by **VibhavS** » 29 Aug 2014 21:42

Bud you are just making a fool or yourself and I am going to get warned for feeding a troll. So last post on this matter.
Yes, so that cost you quote are the latest numbers or overall numbers my guess is overall. A brand new Abrams will cost a lot more than what you quote and now the western powers would also have to bear the cost of restarting production. As we keep producing the Mark 2 the cost will keep coming down. Once we start approaching 1000's as a lot of members here want (including me) the costs would come down to more "believable levels"

I have had the opportunity to see the mark 1's lined up with T72, T90's firing down range at targets and spoken to the crews.. Arjun is a beast.. makes the T series look like junk... We have a good thing going, we need to stick to it despite what anyone says... So go ahead my good Chinese Friend carry on with the Arjun is bad comments. It just shows that you think it is a threat to you guys.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Aug 2014 22:31

Lui,

I said substantial - of substance.

"Anyway" does not apply.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 29 Aug 2014 23:13

Liu wrote:
abhik wrote:10 million USD is pretty standard for current generation westen ("style") tanks.
one China's T96 costs 1M USD(6M RMB)
one Russia's T80U costs 2.2M USD;
one RUssia's T90 costs 2M USD:
one CHina's T99A costs 3M USD(20M RMB);
One German leopard2a6 costs 3.3M USD;
One UK's Chanllengers2 costs 5.1M USD;
One French Leclerc costs 6M USD;
one USA's M1A2SEP costs 6M USD;
One Japanese T90 cost 8.8M USD;

.......

One India Arjun costs 10M USD.

Do we know what the deal "includes"?

A few points before comparing tank costs:

Suppose LeClerc is 6M USD:

1. Which year $ price? 1995 or 2005 or 2014?
LeClerc was 6.5M USD in 2001. Average 10% inflation in India for 15years makes it what now? The same holds for Abrams, Merkava etc. (Comparison to t-series is apples-Oranges, not same class in any parameter - firepower/protection/crewcomfort)

2. All the above quoted tank prices are 10-15year old prices. You CANNOT get them for that price today. The current prices will be 50-100% more today

3. The quoted prices above - only the vanilla tank OR does that include ammunition supply & maintainence?

4. the 10M USD for Arjun deal today - only the vanilla tank OR does that include ammunition supply & maintainence?

5. Arjun MkII has 90 improvements & additions over MkI - all that doesn't come free. Low rate orders mean more $. If 500 tanks ordered today, you may get ArjunMkII for approx 20% less

And remember most of the money (despite/minus the import content) spent on ArjunMkII will be spent in India. Impact on job creation, orders to MSME's etc all contribute to INDIAN economy

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 29 Aug 2014 23:21

hecky wrote:

-- Around Rs 7000 crore have been spent on Tejas Mk1 development since 1985 and projected final development cost is Rs 7965 crore (till FOC). In addition to this Rs 2432 crore is being allocated for Tejas Mk2 development and Rs 3650 crore for Naval varient.

Cost of 1 LCA is ~ Rs 200 Crore ($33 million).

-- Cost of 3 x P-15A is Rs 11662 crore (excluding the weapons). It is less than 3 times that of T-45 of Royal Navy.

-- We don't know the actual 'unit' cost and we still don't know the final configuration for Arjun MkII as it's still in trials. See this: Qatar ordered 24 Pz-2000 and 62 Leo2 for $2.5 billion.

The weapon component cost is sometimes a huge "fool tool".. most of the imports are quoted without weapons component.. the weapons added as supplementary costs later on making initial deal look small.

Example: After so much money spent on Scorpene, the deal as of today still does not account for the cost of procurement of Blackshark torpedos. When that is added, the Scorpene cost increases further..

That is also the reason why Mirage2000 upgrade is so costly.. includes the new weapons negotiated, making it a expensive upgrade at nearly 40-45M USD per plane.

member_28457 · Post by **member_28457** » 29 Aug 2014 23:49

There used to be a constant crib that we don't order Indian made stuff and people were increasingly impatient to see us order Indian orders. And now when we get more order, 'Oh they are so expensive' ; 'others cost 1/3, 1/5/ 3/4 of $10million a piece Arjun'; why make such a fuss and why not applaud it. Of this at-least 55 - 50% of the money would be spent for totally Indian made systems and remain in India rather than 100% of the money go to bolstering someone else's economy.

Personally I think this is a extremely positive step.

Feedback for the army, the user, will make Arjun III so much more versatile; if nothing else at least the army will learn to grown on it

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 Aug 2014 23:52

Arjun project will now probably be transferred to the private sector. It's best that we have competing variations to get the best product.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Aug 2014 00:00

At this point we not just have to increase Arjun orders but also reduce the T90 orders.

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Aug 2014 07:24

dhiraj wrote:118 Arjun tank for 6600 crore. Roughly $10 million a piece. Definitely not cheap.
Some negotiation needed for some price reduction

Liu wrote:...
.......

One India Arjun costs 10M USD.

...

It is not clear what all is included in the Rs. 6600 crore deal. Someone simply tried to average it out by dividing 6600 crore by 118, but that is a very simplistic way to figure out the cost per tank. We have to look at the details of what that Rs. 6600 crore deal includes, such as lifecycle costs (i.e. spares, support infrastructure), weapons, training, and other infrastructure. Some people also tend to calculate only the unit cost without all the other things that are needed to make it operational.

On the other note, the deal may also include 40 Arjun 130mm Catapult as per some reports.

Here is what has been reported in an interview with Director of CVRDE:

INTERVIEW WITH Director, CVRDE, Dr Sivakumar
...
What is the cost of the programme till date?

Each Arjun Mk-1 costs Rs 20 crore plus. Each Arjun Mk-2 with all improvements will cost approximately Rs 34 crore.
...

So if we were to apply that simplistic average math, Rs. 6600 / 118 units comes to Rs 55.93 crore / unit. That means there are a bunch of additional items (likely infrastructure, support and weapons) included in that Rs. 6600 deal.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Aug 2014 07:45

All new Arjun inductions come with associated infrastructure as its a new tank. Liu has ridiculous argument in terms of cost. Also Liu has ridiculous argument in terms of Chinese tanks. They failed in recent competition in Russia. Tracks came off from their best maintained tank which they sent to Russia for competition. I don't think Chinese tanks will pass the test with Indian Army GSQR.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 30 Aug 2014 08:46

From what I understand the Chinese Type 99 is an upgraded T-72 with somewhat better electronics and armour. Not worth comparing it to the Arjun which stacks up against the best of the western heavies. Oh, and as for the T-72, we moved on a decade ago.