Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Oct 2015 06:57

Not sure if posted here.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=504 ... ando-Units
IAF wants 60 armoured vehicles for Garuds. BMP-2 or the Kestrel for the IAF? or will it be import ?

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 31 Oct 2015 07:31

Thakur_B wrote:Not sure if posted here.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=504 ... ando-Units
IAF wants 60 armoured vehicles for Garuds. BMP-2 or the Kestrel for the IAF? or will it be import ?

Article says ... The AFV should be amphibious and capable to para drop ... !! Which one suits ..?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 31 Oct 2015 08:12

Tata Kestrel Amphibious and three such fully loaded vehicles can fit into C-17 Globemaster. C-130 is too small a plane to transport such amphibious vehicles and even if it did, just one can be transported. C-17 and A400 can fit Stryker kind of vehicles. So Tata Kestrel is the most likely candidate.

A good article regarding the same
http://www.army-technology.com/features/feature1449/

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 31 Oct 2015 10:56

Not sure if posted here.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=504 ... ando-Units
IAF wants 60 armoured vehicles for Garuds. BMP-2 or the Kestrel for the IAF? or will it be import ?

Wait. Why would the Garuds require an IFV? Their Primary Weapons are a Radio and a Laser Designator. Low Profile is a key to their missions. Could it mean a light armour JLTV/Humvee sort of Vehicle?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Oct 2015 11:03

rkhanna wrote:
Not sure if posted here.
http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=504 ... ando-Units
IAF wants 60 armoured vehicles for Garuds. BMP-2 or the Kestrel for the IAF? or will it be import ?
Wait. Why would the Garuds require an IFV? Their Primary Weapons are a Radio and a Laser Designator. Low Profile is a key to their missions. Could it mean a light armour JLTV/Humvee sort of Vehicle?

They want protection from Rpg as well. Surely a humwee cannot provide that even if ifv/APC can't.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 31 Oct 2015 12:42

This is for the mission of taking over an airport from the enemy and holding onto it.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Oct 2015 13:02

http://tenders.gov.in/innerpage.asp?cho ... 643&work=1
some extract from RFI:

Well the Armoured vehicles are intended to be used by IAF Special Forces ‘Garud’ to undertake their Operational tasks.

OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS AND TECHNICAL PARAMETERS: ARMOURED VEHICLE As per RFI
- An armoured vehicle that can be transported by air, capable of all terrain operations (both cross country and urban terrain) by Special Forces and easy to handle with minimum maintenance (Rules out BMP-2 or the Kestrel kind of a vehicle)

- Configuration: Number of personnel including driver. Should be capable of carrying minimum six personnel along with their combat equipment (looks like a replacement for gypsy)

- Misc features:
(a)Availability of armour.
(i) Side armour and level of protection
(ii) Overhead armour and level of protection
(iii) Front and Rear armour and level of protection
(iv) Bottom armour and level of protection
(IAF has not specified small arms/IED/RPG protection levels, it is up to vendor to specify their level of protection)

(b)Facility for conversion of armoured version to unarmoured version and vice versa.

(c) Type of weapon mount:
1) Side door gun mount
2) Rear gun mount
3) Top gun mount
(Rules out AFV/IFV types)

(r)Bullet Proof Wind shield and side windows (Rules out AFV/IFV types)

It looks to be a LSV kind of requirement tailored for Special forces.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 31 Oct 2015 21:37

Karan M wrote:Its almost as if IA has its own definition of BMP-2M and is asking about for it?!?
http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/ ... 131109.pdf

(Only My Views based on GOOGLE SEARCH and Following BRF)
Well definition of BMP 2m is actually India only,

Why?
Because this BMP 2M discussion started in somewhere 2008-09 or before it.

It was Indian upgrade choice or definition of Its BMP 2 fleet_Upgrade.

We did come up with this specification and collaborated with RU and now this concept can also be seen on ARMATA IFV.

There is a DRDO publication showing BMP 2M upgrade pic on indian BMP chassis (BA number is the clue that it is indian) i cant find it today or dont have the time, but was posted on BFR. (Time line should be 2007-09)

Where the program got stuck was because of Engine!!! (enough google to have a perception on this)

We all in BFR know in indian conditions all world engines outputs get derated!!

We wanted 400HP engine approx

So somewhere in 2009-11 Ukraine and RU started a program to cater to this requirement! which became a victim of Ukraine and RU conflict. (Google for evidence)

If we have solved the engine problem then only this upgrade is going forward. (Ukraine option is not available now)

BMP 2M upgrade is a requirement which has been stuck for 6-7 years minimum and is not a new requirement. (even in RFI or Tender terms)

BMP 3 speculations are nothing more that Caesar's wife.

100MM is not a role for INDIAN ARMY MECH FORCES. (rest is just stories by people for their self interest)

Over the years I have observed some of the BRF oldies have alterior motives as evident from they responses and their bias towards western equipment.(They disguise this bias very successfully)

The one liners towards BMP 3 without facts are self evident.
100mm has no space in India Mech forces but to please some one, i dont know whome or why PUTIN has to come in discussion. (its like godfather telling ur target is 10 post opposing Putin, u achieve ur KRI u get paid)
(PT 76 was part of Armoured regt not mech forces)

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 01 Nov 2015 10:18

^^Berwal Sahib, I assure you I have no position on Western vs. Russian eqpt.

I quoted Putin cuz' I remembered that from an article written years ago when Putin visited India.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 01 Nov 2015 19:22

^^ Paul, this news item of BMP 3 in some form or other keeps on creeping up in media from at least last 10 years and specifically when Indian or Russian side are to meet on defense matters.

We all know next new IFV/AFV purchase will be under FICV sort of program. Almost all the leading defense AFV/IFV manufacturers are lobbying for a pie of it, whats wrong in Ru doing the same. RU has publicly stated for a partnership for this FICV program. Now linking this to BMP 3 is being offered is like how the SPPUB writer linked IAF GARUD requirement to IAF asking for AFV with RPG/ IED protection for GARUD. And the we fill pages on why IAF needs AFV and people justify it limitless for and against. (we all are very creative as we can really come up with reason like, kestrel kind of vehicle is required by IAF GARUD to take over foreign Airfields)

Even highest levels of US leadership has lobbied for Stryker and F-16 and Javelin etc. We dare use their leadership name for intended Pun.

My remarks are my observations and not against you Paul or anyone in specific.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Nov 2015 03:23

India Buys Military Vehicles From Russia

The second deal with Russia concerns the acquisition of 149 BMP-2 IFVs for the army at a cost of Rs 924 crore. The decision to purchase these IFVs came as a result of an amendment to the “acceptance of necessity” (AoN) that was originally granted for Indian licensed production by the Ordnance Factory Board of 363 of the same IFVs.

Earlier this month, due to over five years of delays in the Future ICV (FICV) program, the Indian Army made clear its intention to accelerate the upgrade of 1,000-1,200 aging license-built BMP-2/2K “Sarath” IFVs to BMP-2M standard through the enhancement of their armament and fitting of more powerful engines. The FICV program has been beset by problems, one of them being its restriction to domestic companies and the eventual realization that foreign collaboration is necessary in several areas.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2015 14:46

Was probably the cheapest option.The new terrific looking Armata IFV,with 7 roadwheels and a menu of active and passive self-defence systems, would cost at least around 1.5 times that of a BMP-2.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Nov 2015 22:39

Philip wrote:The new terrific looking Armata IFV

Philip sahab, your biases sometimes lightens up my days. Keep them coming.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Nov 2015 09:27

indranilroy wrote:
Philip wrote:The new terrific looking Armata IFV
Philip sahab, your biases sometimes lightens up my days. Keep them coming.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Nov 2015 09:30

Finally news on Arjun Mk2 from , 40 Mark 2 deployed on initial batch 300 to be produce in coming years

Ajrun MBT Mark 2 Deployed very Soon

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2015 12:19

C'mon guys,doesn't the Armata series of IFVs,etc look chic? Very cleverly detailed like a premium automobile.

And just look at the array of defensive systems. It makes a BMP-2/3 look as if it came from the last century...fact! The BMP series was from the 20th century the Armata series from the 21st.

Good news about A-2's clearance and induction.Interesting reading the report.It weighs 10t more to accommodate all the numerous improvements from A-1. The mention about the region where they will be deployed may indicate air transportation limitations.Rail should'nt be a problem though.A Q: Can the 120+ A-1s be brought upto almost A-2 std.,at an opportune time,the earlier the better? If some of the key improvements designed for A-2 are incorporated,it would give them much better capability. If we can upgrade our veteran T-72s,why not the A-1s too? There woulf then be more commonality with the series of Arjuns in service. With such a small inventory of A-1s and A-2s,less than 200,maintenance and support in the field is going to be a task.Earlier reports spoke of shortages of spares,etc. due to the low order book.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 04 Nov 2015 13:09

This is for the mission of taking over an airport from the enemy and holding onto it.

Garud is by no chance going to take an Airport and Hold it by itself. They will be essential Parthfinders to a Larger Para Component. After that they will take over manning the ATC while the Para's do the 'Holding'.

Anyways d_berwal post answered by Doubts.

These guys seem to be selling a host of ATV/Light MRAP vehicles
http://oshkoshdefense.com/products/mine ... cted-mrap/

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Nov 2015 15:02

^^^Pathfinders are integral to the Parachute Brigade...they won't rely on a third party to that for them.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 04 Nov 2015 15:20

^^^Pathfinders are integral to the Parachute Brigade...they won't rely on a third party to that for them.

Not when you plan to take down an Airport (SEAD/DEAD) and then rebuild it up for your own Air Operations -. You need Flight Combat Controllers, Air Traffic Controllers, / SIGINT / Radar Specialist / etc, and electronics guys who may be needed to get Damaged Electronics up and running in super quick time. - Basically all the capability to run a Military Airbase in a small package.

Something I don't think they para's will ever aim to have. However I do Expect the Para's to provide the Muscle to execute the mission.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 05 Nov 2015 00:37

Austin wrote:Finally news on Arjun Mk2 from , 40 Mark 2 deployed on initial batch 300 to be produce in coming years

Ajrun MBT Mark 2 Deployed very Soon

Why should there be a mine plough on each Mk2? I thought only a couple of tanks in a squadron usually have it.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Nov 2015 06:40

That is something I have never been able to understand.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 05 Nov 2015 07:06

What if the select few that have mine plough are blown up or down due to servicibilty issues? better to have self reliant tanks with all the systems intact.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Nov 2015 07:13

That logic should apply to all the tanks of the IA not just the Arjun. No?

member_28454 · Post by **member_28454** » 05 Nov 2015 07:41

That logic should apply to all the tanks of the IA not just the Arjun. No?

So that the Army can count the Mine plough in to call the Arjun heavy as a reason to not induct it.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 05 Nov 2015 07:48

^I think it is more like the IA wants to have this capability on every Arjun 2, but practically it will be only deployed on a few. If they get blown up, they can at least have replacements by attaching the plow to another readily available Arjun.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 06 Nov 2015 11:16

Blow for Tata Motors' defence ambitions

Sigh. Import cabal is striking back. Imagine, if this happens to one of TATA group companies, imagine roadblocks faced by SMEs in defence sector.

Last year, thanks to profits from its UK-based subsidiary Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), Tata Motors had a consolidated turnover of Rs 2,63,695 crore and a net profit of Rs 13,986 crore, almost thrice as much as Larsen & Toubro (L&T), its next-biggest rival in the FICV contest. But, JLR's profitability dressed up a far less impressive domestic performance: Tata Motors' domestic operations generated a turnover of only Rs 38,176 crore and a net loss of Rs 4,739 crore.

On October 27, in a thunderbolt to Tata Motors, the defence ministry issued a note to the 10 FICV contenders, clarifying that domestic operation alone would count whilst evaluating a company's commercial eligibility and strength - a key determinant for who will win the FICV project.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Nov 2015 11:55

There are multiple hidden Bureaucrats who work overtime to scuttle indigenous efforts.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Nov 2015 12:03

uddu wrote:There are multiple hidden Bureaucrats who work overtime to scuttle indigenous efforts.

While the sentiments of the Jingos may be hurt, the bureaucrats are not wrong. What happens if Tata motors folds up in the middle of development ? To avoid liabilities the UK arm will distance itself from the Indian arm. Thus its a sensible move to evaluate financial strength based on domestic market presence.

Anyhow, it's not a major blow. Tata Motors is a behemoth, if Tata Motors folds, BC half of Indians auto industry will fold.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Nov 2015 12:08

The Q is the design. What armament,sensors,etc need to be installed.With the BMP-2 already being built in the country in large number,an improved version may have been the most cost-effective solution,which would also keep a DPSU busy. One cannot escape the fact that the GOI would wants as far as poss. to keep a DPSU that delivers busy,rather than hand over the same to a pvt. entity. From recent MOD/GOI decisions,costs seem to be a driving factor in many cases. Anyway,Tatas will certainly get orders for other def. eqpt. and their R&D in developing their ICV may not go waste in the future. Having developed the same,they could see if exports are possible. They have to be very price competitive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Nov 2015 12:33

BMP is a fairly obsolete design by any yardstick. how long we can keep upgrading it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Nov 2015 12:39

I think that this is a stop-gap arrangement.The search for a "family of AVs" was put out not too long ago by the IA,which sparked a lot of merriment in global OEMs,as both wheeled and tracked variants were wanted. Some said that the IA's reqs. were impossible to deliver. So a new more capable ICV is on the cards for the future.These 140+ really isn't a large number.The next arrival will be needed in the thousands.

Bhurishrava · Post by **Bhurishrava** » 04 Dec 2015 18:23

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/12 ... erger.html

Leclerc and Leopard have joined hands.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 11 Dec 2015 07:25

FICV update:

- FICV will be tracked
- Air portable by Il-76 and C-17
- Capable of targeting using ATGM upto 4000m
- Ten competitors: L&T, Tata Motors and Tata SED, Mahindra & Mahindra, Bharat Forge, Pipavav Defence, Rolta India, Punj Lloyd, Titagarh Wagons, and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) (I count 9)
- Tata Group's bid will be led by Tata Motors with close cooperation with 12 Tata group companies.
http://www.financialexpress.com/article ... er/175542/

The EOI lays down four parameters for evaluation of the bidding companies – financial, technical capability, critical technology and technical Specification. The EOI also lays clear rejection criteria, which are solely related to product competence. After vetting the parameters, industry sources assess that L&T, Tatas, Mahindras and OFB are the only serious contenders for the bid.

Tata Motors believes that having successfully demonstrated its capability on Armoured Mobility platforms through the Wheeled Infantry Combat Vehicle, the Tata Motors WhAP-Kestrel, it will be a front-runner for the FICV programme. The Wheeled Amphibious Platform (WhAP) was developed as a public-private partnership project by the DRDO, Indian army and Tata Motors, and has undergone all required mobility, flotation and firing trials at DRDO. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was also given a demonstration of the capabilities of WhAP during his visit to ARDE, Pune last month.

In October, defence ministry had issued a note to the ten FICV contenders stating that domestic operation alone would count whilst evaluating a company’s commercial eligibility and strength — a key determinant for who will win the FICV project. This had raised questions about profits from Tata’s UK-based subsidiary Jaguar Land Rover (JLR), which underpin Tata Motors’ consolidated turnover of Rs 2,63,695 crore and a net profit of Rs 13,986 crore last year. Tata Motors’ domestic operations had shown a turnover of just Rs 38,176 crore and a net loss of Rs 4,739 crore last year.

However Tata Motors says that “the defence ministry’s Integrated Project Management Team has clarified that the wholly owned subsidiaries of the EOI holder having manufacturing presence in India can be included in the financials. With JLR being a manufacturing entity in India and a wholly owned subsidiary, Tata Motors is doubly confident of its position as the front runner for the selection as a Development Agency for FICV”.

Tata group is also buoyed by the statement of former DRDO chief and Niti Aayog member, Dr VK Saraswat who said on September 25, that as Tata Motors had already developed an Infantry Combat Vehicle, there should not be any requirements for it to competitively bid again to continue to progress in that family of platforms.

According to Jane's, Tata's FICV will be based off CVRDE-Tata Motors WhAP Kestrel.
http://www.janes.com/article/56531/tata ... n-ficv-bid

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Dec 2015 09:30

Really pray and hope this process reaches its logical conclusion.

The good work done by L&T and TATA in case of Pinaka is for all to see...no time overruns, no major glitches, good production quality. If we can have an Indian entity develop and manufacture a common platform to adapt across different uses, we'll have addressed a very significant requirement of the army.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Dec 2015 09:42

^^ I beleive that FICV is now Tata's to lose. With a large amount of legwork already done for WhAP Kestrel, they are already frontrunners. OFB and Mahindra have automobile assembly lines but not much design capability, Bharat forge have neither design nor automotive manufacturing set up, L&T have design capabilities but not much into automotive assembly line.Rest all are small fries.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Dec 2015 11:19

There is no better way to invigorate Indian pvt. players than to order a weapon system already developed. If we can accept DPSU products ,which in the past had some quality problems even with licence built products,then we should take a leap of faith and order a substantial initial batch whose production run will be profitable for the pvt. player.Once this is done other pvt. players will invest in the def. industry and the benefits to all accrue.

The next order in the offing is the one for the KA-226 light helo which is sure to be sealed during Mr.M's visit to Moscow.This would involve both HAL and a pvt. player.At least 200 will be required for the services ,with at least another 100+in the future.If one oks at the MI-17Vs being ordered ,the light helo requirement will be at least double and that doesn't include civil applications too.

The $750M arty deal has gone the L&T SoKo (Samsung) way,so the ball has started moving for the pvt. players.Reliance is also sure to bag more orders for Ru wares for its yard at Pipavav apart from the overhaul/refits of Kilo subs.There was some talk of extra Talwars.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 12 Dec 2015 12:30

@Tahkur_B,

Whap is wheeled vehicle with a completely imported turret.

The tracked is a completely different ball game and I do not think Tata have any prior experience in that though the amphibious hull design will give them some advantage compared to other private ones. In terms of turret, no design capability what so ever.

The Abhay proto and the medak gun as well as Arjun turret design/development/manufacture experience will give a huge advantage to the OFB-DRDO combination.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Dec 2015 14:33

Picklu ji, as per the Tata rep at defexpo, the Kongsberg turret on WhAP at was for demo purpose only. Tatas will get so much hands on experuence on Kestrel, monocoque amphibious hull, modular armour and much more, which they all got from DRDO. Besides, DRDO doesn't seem to be too hot on FICV, let alone partnering with OFB. Afaik, in FICV project, competitors will be allowed to source techown developed for Abhay from DRDO or get theur own. In the end, govt will own 80 percent of the IP given that they will fund 80 percent of the development cost.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Dec 2015 08:11

This was probably not reported though the news is from 26th Nov:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 927519.cms

Upgraded Arjun Mark-II tanks undergoing trial at Pokhran
Vimal Bhatia,TNN | Nov 26, 2015, 01.20 AM IST

JAISALMER: The upgraded version of the series of Arjun Mark-II tanks are undergoing trial at the Indian Army core level excercise at Pokhran field firing range. The tank, Arjun Mark-II, is being tested for different parameters here.

The first test will examine its missile firing ability, while the second one will look into tank's automotive aspects, that is, its running, especially with added load.

A defence source said successful testing will pave way for the production of upgraded Arjun. In all, 124 tanks of the first series have been produced so far. Indian Army has two armoured regiments, both deployed in western desert sector, which comprise of Arjun-I tanks.

The tank is produced by the DRDOs, combat vehicles research and development establishment near Chennai.

A major modification involves equipping the new version of the tank with missile firing capability. The DRDO aims at firing missiles accurately up to a range of 2,000 km. The missiles, fired through the tank's main gun, are primarily meant for targeting armoured vehicles and fortifications over extended ranges.

Sources said, the automotive trials will test the new suspension of the tank designed to handle weight up to 70 tonne. The engine will be from the same German parentage. This testing trial has been taking place as part of army exercise since the last one month.

It is said, the upgraded version has 89 improved aspects over its predecessor. These include long-range missile firing capabilities, panoramic sights with night vision, enhanced weapon penetration, digital control, better hunter-killer capability, improved auxiliary power unit (APU), better communication equipment and navigation aid. The tank will have frontal explosive reactive armour (ERA) to protect against incoming missiles.

Source revealed that the ongoing trails of Arjun Mark-II in Pokhran field firing range will mainly focus on 19 parametres after army's recommendation. A successful trial at Pokharan firing range would give a green signal for building 124 Arjun Mark-II tanks at the Heavy Vehicles Factory in Avadi. These will supplement the 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks already in service.

Source said "The major upgrades would be missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to engage targets effectively at night, containerisation of the ammunition, enhanced main weapon penetration; additional ammunition types, explosive reactive armour, an advanced air-defence gun to engage helicopters; a mine plough, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system which can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance. Other upgrades are an enhanced Auxiliary power unit providing 8.5 KW (from 4.5 KW) and an improved gun barrel, changes in the commander's panoramic sight with eye safe LRF, night vision capability including for driver, digital control harness, new final drive, track and sprocket."

Defence spokesperson Lt Col Manish Ojha said upgradation of weapons and equipment through trial is a constant and ongoing process, but at present, no information about Arjun Mark-II tank trial has been provided by the army.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 14 Dec 2015 08:19

deejay wrote:This was probably not reported though the news is from 26th Nov:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 927519.cms

Upgraded Arjun Mark-II tanks undergoing trial at Pokhran
Vimal Bhatia,TNN | Nov 26, 2015, 01.20 AM IST

A major modification involves equipping the new version of the tank with missile firing capability. The DRDO aims at firing missiles accurately up to a range of 2,000 km. The missiles, fired through the tank's main gun, are primarily meant for targeting armoured vehicles and fortifications over extended ranges.

DDMitis?