Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[Indranil]

I agree with you.

And it is a stern warning to everybody. If you want to discuss JSF as an alternative to MMRCA, please discuss it on the JSF thread till there is official confirmation that JSF is being considered as an alternative to Rafale. Till that point, anymore discussion of JSF on this thread (in favor or against) will attract immediate warnings.

[Viv S]

The flyaway cost is a meaningless number though, right. The initial acquisition cost (without weapons) for the 65 Canadian F-35As is $9bn i.e. $138.5m per a/c.

Then, we have this news from Japan, which will spend $1.2bn on just 6 F-35A ($200m per a/c):

Japan looking to buy more stealth fighters in fiscal 2015

Looks like the true cost of the F-35 is VLO (Very Low Observable) and VFA (Very Few Affordable)

Those figures are off.

Refer response here.

[Viv S]

Ef2k flies with stone in nose and gets inducted by Euro AFs. It may not even be fully capable in A to G till 2018. While Rafale has no IRST but no complaint from french and they induct.

That was the Tornado ADV not the Eurofighter. And full multi-role capability was achieved with the P1E upgrade last year.

I'm sure even mki would have missed some sensor or other for many years, IIRC it was RWR.

All Su-30MKIs were delivered with RWRs AFAIK. L-150s for the older units, Tarang for the later ones.

[Yagnasri]

What will be the cost of EF now? Any information is coming out on this?

[member_28640]

^^^
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/germ ... 78279.html

The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration.

[srai]

^^^
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/germ ... 78279.html

The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration.

If Eurofighter is chosen, the IAF could quite quickly get around 2 full squadrons of 53 ex-RAF Tranche 1 between 2015-2018 on a 10-year lease (similar to the 18 Su-30K lease on the MKI deal). This would be on top of an additional squadron with new built 18 aircrafts by 2018/19.

RAF - Typhoon FGR4

...
A total of 53 Tranche 1 aircraft were delivered, with Tranche 2 contract provisioning for 91 aircraft. 24 of these were diverted to fulfill the RSAF export campaign, leaving 67 Tranche 2 aircraft due for delivery to the RAF. The Tranche 3 contract has been signed and will deliver 40 aircraft. With the Tranche 1 aircraft fleet due to retire over the period 2015-18, this will leave 107 Typhoon aircraft in RAF service until 2030.
...

[brar_w]

There should be some good reason why that Trance 1 fleet is being retired so early. Worth digging up.

[member_28476]

Tranche 1? What for???

[srai]

There should be some good reason why that Trance 1 fleet is being retired so early. Worth digging up.

Typhoon's present and future

...
There are some problems in retaining the Tranche 1s, however. The role for which they could more easily be retained is the Air Defence / Quick Reaction Alert role, but even for this, the airplanes would ideally need the AESA radar, since Meteor is best exploited with such a radar system. Other improvements would also be necessary, and of course the missile integration would have to be validated on the older Typhoons. As it is, Meteor is being integrated on Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 only.

On the other hand, using them in the Swing Role / Land Attack role in the long term is hardly conceivable, as it would require a massive weapon integration effort, plus even more modifications to software and hardware.

And unfortunately, Tranche 1 airframes are weaker than Trance 2 and 3 ones: there are narrower payload limits, and other differences that make it impossible / economically unfeasible to upgrade them to a common standard. It’s the first reason why the plan for an early retirement in 2019 came up to start with.

Development of Tranche 1 Typhoons was indeed to end with SRP 4.3 / Block 5 under the main Typhoon contract. Fortunately, an agreement has been found between the partner nations to continue delivering “Drops” of software upgrades into Tranche 1 airplanes.
...

With Phase 1 Enhancements (P1E), multi-role capability has been achieved.

...
According to Eurofighter, P1EA introduces the following improvements:

- Integration of Paveway IV and EGBU-16
- Dedicate Air-Ground mode for the 27 mm gun control software
- More mature integration of the laser designation pod
- Expanded communications fit, new radios
- IFF mode 5 upgrade
- Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) enhancements
- New Differential GPS navigation system
- Complete digital integration of IRIS-T short range air to air missile
...
P1EA also includes unspecified improvements to a range of systems including Rover terminal integration (to share imagery from the targeting pod with air attack controllers on the ground equipped with the Rover laptop), IFF, Forward Looking Infra Red FLIR, Chaff/Flare and DASS self-protection system, with improved accuracy of threat detection and enhanced countermeasures technologies.
...
The P1EB software will add new display formats for the air-to-ground role, significantly improving the Human Machine Interface (HMI), minimising the pilot’s workload in the most complex scenarios and facilitating simultaneous swing-role operations by allowing a pilot to continue a bomb run while at the same time fighting off air attacks. Pilot workload will be further reduced by expanded and enhanced Data Link 16 / Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) functionality, with much greater data transmission capacity.

There will also be a two-stage delivery of Direct Voice Input upgrades, with the first package of enhancements increasing the vocabulary to almost 90 commands, and allowing the pilot to request information to be displayed for any target or waypoint by voice command.

It will also allow the pilot to manipulate the Laser Designator Pod and even to create a waypoint at a point of interest with just two commands. Combined with the HEA (Head Equipment Assembly), with the Striker head-mounted display, this will dramatically improve combat effectiveness, as the pilot will be able to engage targets in all directions without having to physically turn the fighter around. He will also have complete access to all relevant information on his display, regardless of where his head is pointed, without the need for looking down at the HUD or cockpit screens.
...

[srai]

Tranche 1? What for???

The IAF needs immediate replacements for its retiring fleet of MiG-21s and 27s in the next 5 years to maintain its squadron strength. It only makes sense if the IAF/GoI goes for the cheaper counter-offer by the Eurofighter consortium.

[member_28476]

Tranche 1 have limited capabilities like no AESA (and not retrofittable).

[Viv S]

Tranche 1 have limited capabilities like no AESA (and not retrofittable).

The integration of the first Captor-E has currently been done only on the (Tranche 1 standard) IPA5. While not 'plug-and-play' like the T3 aircraft, the T1s can certainly be modified to employ AESAs.

Even with the cost of modification, 68 EF T1s would be a very cost effective option for boosting squadron strength. 53 ex-RAF aircraft plus 15 ex-Austrian units. $3-5 billion would be my guess depending on the options availed of. And they can be retired with the MiG-29s and Mirages by 2030, and replaced with a 5th gen aircraft.

[Philip]

There may be a clue in the problem the Germans are having with their EFs,poor availability due to lack of spares,cannibalisation,etc.Are some parts wearing out much earlier than anticipated?

[Manish_Sharma]

^^^
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/germ ... 78279.html

The new German offer could bring down the total value of the contract by Rs.20,000 crore over its 10-year duration.

Another interesting point form the article:

The competitors in the deal have alleged that the French com-mercial offer was "incomplete" and the price arrived at by the Indian side was based on data presented by Dassault that had to be interpreted by Indian financial experts.

As Negi ji mentioned in Naval thread:

Isnt Blackshark the Torpedo chosen for Scorpene Subs ?

Till date no contract has been signed for any torpedo

Well DCNS is haggling with SDREs on TOT for Torpedo tubes (yeah tubes), torpedos are for another day.

Typical behaviour of french? 8 years after being signed; Still the scorpene deal is not complete on ToT?

It seems a big minus of french deals, they know that german-british euro consortium is lurking in shadows waiting to pounce up, but still they allow the negotiations to prolong that much.

Imagine if some leftover threads are allowed to hang loose for later to be tied and deal is signed just like scorpene, how they'll take MoD-IAF for a ride. A long delayed dragged on scorpene-kind of deal.
----------------------------------------

Another thing I'm reminded that during '03 - '04 negotiations of scorpenes the High Court had lifted ban from German U boat company and Germans arrived with their proposals perhaps leading to french sofetening their position.

Same way now Germans are back.

Everyone please write on Prime Minister's portal that "Before signing Rafale the Govt. should use this deal to bring DCNS to its senses and ToT the torpedo tubes tech."

[Manish_Sharma]

Tranche 1? What for???

The IAF needs immediate replacements for its retiring fleet of MiG-21s and 27s in the next 5 years to maintain its squadron strength. It only makes sense if the IAF/GoI goes for the cheaper counter-offer by the Eurofighter consortium.

In Stratpost roundtable conferance it was pointed out the Ef2k per hour rate was more than 1 lakh dollars per hour, "we'll be spending more time on simulators than actually flying them..."

This sort of expensive babe replacing cheap Mig 21s isn't possible.

[srai]

...

The IAF needs immediate replacements for its retiring fleet of MiG-21s and 27s in the next 5 years to maintain its squadron strength. It only makes sense if the IAF/GoI goes for the cheaper counter-offer by the Eurofighter consortium.

In Stratpost roundtable conferance it was pointed out the Ef2k per hour rate was more than 1 lakh dollars per hour, "we'll be spending more time on simulators than actually flying them..."

This sort of expensive babe replacing cheap Mig 21s isn't possible.

At this point, it is not about 1-to-1 replacement. It is more of a mix of aircraft types are replacing a mix of retiring legacy fighters like the MiG-21, 23 and 27. Squadron strength is dwindling to 32 or less with all the retirements coming up. New replacements Su-30MKI, LCA and MMRCA (future) are being inducted in inadequate numbers to halt the depletion of squadron strength in the next 5 or so years. That is why if the GoI/IAF goes for the EF as the MMRCA (because of the revised price offer) then it would make sense to lease those 53 Tranche-1 ex-RAF Typhoons. That is equivalent to adding 2 to 3 squadrons by 2018 on top of new built ones.

[srai]

Tranche 1 have limited capabilities like no AESA (and not retrofittable).

Yes, but it is not about upgrading Tranche 1. It is about quickly building fleet strength since that is what is more urgent to the IAF. With the P1E upgrade on Tranche 1, they are multi-role capable and would serve the IAF well for 10 years as is until the airforce has time to induct new built ones (with all the bells and whistles). I would imagine the IAF could keep them until the option clause for 63 more Typhoons are exercised, which would then replace these 53 Tranche 1s. Again, this option is only if the GoI/IAF goes for the revised offer made by the Germans.

[member_28476]

If you do so, please consider french LPM. Some Rafales are already built for export...

[Philip]

Both the Rafale and EF are in the Rolls/Bentley category.They are both very expensive to acquire and maintain and upgrade.Of the other contestants that were rejected,the MIG-29/35 available from around $32-40M (which may also be available at Rupee-Rouble rates) ,along with the Gripen,equal in advanced tech in many respects to the Rafale,AESA radar,sensor fusion,etc.These two aircraft along with ramping up LCA MK-2 development and production should be seriously considered by the GOI/IAF if building up numbers at affordable costs is the goal.The original budget for the MMRCA was around $10B. One can stretch that a little,but not double or triple the estimate,which would beggar the defence budget and stop the acquisition of many other equally or if not more important acquisitions. The IAF's strike capability should also be enhanced by acquiring a dedicated tactical/strategic bomber type which can reach any part of China.We are at a considerable disadvantage with the PLAAF which has hundreds of LR bombers apart from thousands of other combat aircraft including hundreds of Flankers.


PS: A personal invitation from Bill Sweetman to the London "International Fighter" conference from the 18th-20th of Nov.Warning,rates are in the Raffy/EF class!

Good Afternoon,
I wanted to personally invite you to attend my presentation at International Fighter 2014. Acknowledged by the community to be the most important fighter aircraft conference of the year, the event provides an established forum to discuss the use of fighter aircraft. It’s an opportunity to socialise, share best practice, discuss CONOPS and strategies to induct new platforms, while reinforcing the importance of the ability to project power in order to maintain political choice.

I will present on Tuesday, November 18, at 5:30 p.m., on the topic of ‘A consumer guide to modern fighters”. I’ll be talking not only about the diverse and quickly changing options on the market, but also about the need for the customer to focus on economics as well as raw performance and to take a disciplined approach to requirements. I will also be co-chairing the Naval Strike focus day on November 20. I’ll be drawing on decades of experience in aerospace journalism and bringing to bear the kind of perspective that I provide in the widely read Commander’s Intent column and my other work for Aviation Week.

This year’s speaker faculty is exceptional. Lt Gen Chris Bogdan, director of the F-35 Joint Program Office, has confirmed his first appearance in Europe at an event of this type. Lt Gen Dave Deptula, retired USAF intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance leader, will be in the chair for the main conference days. As usual, speakers will be drawn from air forces worldwide.

This conference is a unique opportunity to meet with senior leadership from air forces around the world in an impartial forum. With plenty of time to ask questions, meet the speakers informally and engage in debate. As a personal thanks I’m happy to offer you a 20% discount on your delegate pass, just quote: AW20 when booking.

I hope you will join me and other leading speakers at International Fighter, this November 18-20th in London. Book your place here.

I look forward to meeting you.

Best Regards,
Bill Sweetman
Senior International Defense Editor
Aviation Week & Space Technology

[brar_w]

The problem is that you are using the Gripen E which has pretty much what the others have or will get but is in a different form factor. When you load the birds up for medium-heavy mixed strike role you really begin to push the Gripen E's limits. Sure it can carry that but then you loose a lot of the performance. Similarly there isn't really a whole lot of scaling up (mission) that you can do with a Gripen E that you cannot with a LCA Mk2. The rafale and the typhoon on the other hand are designed around the Multi role NATO mission and not on the point defense air defense mission for which the gripen was born (but has now evolved). The MRCA did include the sizes from the Gripen C, the F-16 all the way up to the F-18E/F and the euro twins but the performances traded off is not going to be negligible.

The Mig-29's O&S cost would be interesting to look at and here the IAF would have had its own data from years of mig-29 usage. While the others provided firm O&S and CPFH figures based on thousands of hours of operation the Mig-35 would have only promised paper spec (no fleet existed back then and even now the -35 configuration with all the latest is still not fully realized). Acquisition costs are about 35- 40% of the O&S cost of a fighter class anyhow and the IAF made it clear that they will look at the entire 100% of the cost rather then just a third before making an overall decision.

Expect Sweetman at that congress to sell the Gripen E as the 6th generation fighter (he's already done it on a couple of occasions) and to generally show how the GripenE is better then whatever the rest of the world will produce in the next 2-3 decades . Listen to Deptula, he is a great speaker on the merits and long term potential of air-power both tac fighters and strategic bombers. Hopefully Sweetman this time knows what questions to ask who rather than his usual rants and statements in disguise of a question - which he demonstrated quite loudly during the breakfast sessions with General Hostage.

[NRao]

the MIG-29/35 available from around

The Russians sent the 35 back to the drawing board and will come (ehm, ehm) after 2016 - a 100 of them.

[eklavya]

Speaking of the Gripen:

How to fly a Gripen fighter jet with the FT

We come out of the manoeuvre and I remind Einerth how interested I am in seeing what the Gripen does better than its competitors built by more powerful nations. The Gripen is the main defence tool of a small, neutral country that once lived in fear of Soviet invasion and still keeps a wary eye on its neighbour. So Saab had to be creative and thrifty. The aircraft had to be able to land in small places, Einerth had told me earlier. “They figured the main runways might be bombed, so we needed to be able to take off and land on damaged runways or highways.”

That said, “If you’re a nation with offensive ambitions and want to kick in the door on the first day of a major conflict, maybe you wouldn’t choose a Gripen,” he’d added. The jet is small and more visible to radar than stealthier US fighters. But that helps the Gripen attract interest from countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that do not want to be seen as aggressors.

[NRao]

The ultimate in CBMs.

That said, “If you’re a nation with offensive ambitions and want to kick in the door on the first day of a major conflict, maybe you wouldn’t choose a Gripen,” he’d added. The jet is small and more visible to radar than stealthier US fighters. But that helps the Gripen attract interest from countries such as Brazil and Switzerland that do not want to be seen as aggressors.

[Manish_Sharma]

http://defense-update.com/20140127_rafa ... AD5YqOxqeo

Rafale Tested with Maximum Weapons Load – 12 Guided Weapons Underwing

Dassault Aviation has begun testing an upgraded variant of the Rafale configured to carry an expanded configuration of weapons and fuel. This configuration will enable the French strike fighter aircraft to attack more targets and conduct counter-air missions at longer range.

At present, the French military remains the single user of this impressive, but controversial jet fighter, since it failed each and every competition except the largest, most lucrative one – the MMRCA competition in India. But Dassault can’t cash in this win, since even after two years of negotiations the contract with the Indian government hasn’t been signed. The Rafale won that competition after it was selected ‘the lowest bidder’, against the Eurofighter Typhoon. But since its selection its cost escalated sharply and almost doubled, bringing the Indian government, currently heading for election, to develop cold feet about their decision to favor the French fighter.

Nevertheless, Dassault is committed to bring new capabilities to the Rafale, according to plan, upgrading the aircraft to the Rafale F3-R standard by 2018. These initial tst flights were only the first in a long series, additional test flights are planned to a complete the clearance of the flight envelope for this configuration, providing the Rafale full multi-role capability at extended range.

Equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft

This configuration comprise a full increment of six air-to-air and six air-to-ground weapons. The air-to-ground ordnance includes six Sagem/MBDA Hammer guided weapons (AASM), carried on two triple-ejector racks, designed specifically for the weapon. The AASM is deployed with one of three optional guidance methods utilizing a GPS guided, laser homing or thermally guided seekers. To extend its range the Hammer is also equipped with a rocket booster. Four MICA air-to-air missiles and two very long range Meteor missiles will be complementing the fighter’s air-to-air capability. The MICA missiles are operational and can be employed with IR or radar guided. These Meteor missiles are yet to enter service – but they are expected to be fielded with the F3-R variant by 2018. In addition to that impressive weapons complement, Rafale will retain its Nexter 30M791 30 mm internal cannon, firing 2500 rounds/min. According to the manufacturer, equipped with this configuration, two Rafale aircraft represent the same potential as six Mirage 2000 class aircraft.

Since June 2013 all production aircraft configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA.

The weapons would take less than a third of the fighter’s payload – the rest will be used to carry fuel to sustain the long range missions the fighter is required to perform. The Rafale can carry up to 9.5 tons of payload (21,000 lbs). To support missions at extended ranges the fighter also carries three 524 gallons (2,000 litre) fuel tanks weighing additional 6.7 tons (14,700 lbs) that will top up the fighter’s internal fuel capacity of 4.7 t (10,300 lbs). These fuel tanks can also be used for ‘buddy refuelling’, further increasing the range and mission endurance of a Rafale-based strike force, a capability particularly important for the naval strike missions.


In the current configuration Rafale carries two Scalp cruise missiles or four Hammer guided weapons, with four MICA air-to-air missiles. Photo: French Air Force

In the current configuration Rafale carries two Scalp cruise missiles or four direct attack weapons (Hammer/laser guided bombs), with four MICA air-to-air missiles. Photo: French Air Force

In the past the French Rafale could strike deep behind enemy lines utilizing the Scalp cruise missiles, as demonstrated in Libya in 2011. On such missions the Rafales carried two Scalp missiles and three 524 gallon fuel tanks. Other weapons typically carried by the Rafale include GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs, GBU-49 GPS-guided bombs, AASM and Scalp cruise missiles. On maritime strike missions the Rafale M can also carry the Exocet AM39 Block 2 air-launched anti-ship missile. Since 2010 one of the Air Forces’ Rafale squadrons, EC-1/91 has also assumed the nuclear strike role, carrying ASMP-A missile. By increasing the capabilities of its fourteen hard points, (eight under the wings), with an empty weight of about 10 tons [22000 lbs], the F3 variant is limited to 24.5 tons [54,000 lb.]) thus being capable of carrying 1.5 times its own mass.
Rafale No. 137 was the first to be equipped with Thales' new RBE2 AESA radar and the new optronic suit. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Rafale No. 137 was the first to be equipped with Thales’ new RBE2 AESA radar and the new Front Section Optronics Optronic (FSO-IT) suit. Photo: Dassault Aviation

Clearance of this new configuration was initiated and funded by the aircraft maker Dassault Aviation, in collaboration with the Direction Générale de l’Armement (the French Defense Procurement Agency DGA). According to Dassault, the rapid development of the new configuration is attributed to the open architecture of the aircraft, designed from the outset to perform all of the missions previously assigned to seven different types of aircraft in France.

The Rafale entered service with the French Navy in 2004 and with the French Air Force in 2006. Of the 180 aircraft ordered by France to date, 126 have been delivered. India has also selected the Rafale for its Medium Multi Mission Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, planning to order at least 126 of the jet fighters. However, two years after the selection New Delhi has not finalized the contract with Dassault and, pressed by the upcoming elections, the Indians are considering a limited order of 18 aircraft to be produced in France, as a near-term solution to get the deal in motion.

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. India’s Diligent Media Corporation (DNA) reports. In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). Today, according to the , its price could now soar to $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore). The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore) DNA quoted an anonymous Indian Air Force source close to the negotiation committee. In 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

The Rafale fleet with the French Air Force and Navy currently totals almost 120,000 flight hours, including 16,000 in operations. Since mid-2013, production Rafale aircraft are equipped with an active array RBE2 AESA radar from Thales.

Expected to become operational in 2018, Rafale F3-R will be an evolutionary upgrade of the current F3 variant, a part of an ongoing enhancement of the French fighter. Among the improvements are the introduction of RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, developed by Thales. This radar has already been fielded with at least 60 of the Rafales. The first to get the new radar was aircraft #137, that rolled of the production line in October 2012.

Since mid 2013 production aircraft are configured to the new F3-04T-standard are equipped with the new radar, along with an improved front sector optronics (FSO-IT) equipment (also from Thales) and the DDM-NG passive missile approach warning system, produced by MBDA. Another new capability to be integrated with the fighter by 2018 will be the PDL-NG new-generation laser designation pod, currently under development at Thales. Other planned sensors upgrades related to air-to-surface capabilities include assisted target recognition and enhanced sensor resolution, enabling the Rafale to attack ever more elusive targets.

According to Dassault, the ongoing effort will ensure more robust detection, tracking and identification of emerging air-to-air threats, and increase the Rafale’s survivability with new low observable modes and with the latest advances in electronic warfare systems.

In a scenario of 24 Rafale's flying lo-lo-lo mission of flying from Porbandar to Karachi, the distance of Porbandar to Karachi is 447 kms as crow flies:

http://goo.gl/b4sqWG

But these 24 Rafale's will first fly 100 kilometers towards West and then turn north to bomb Karachi harbour where agosta 90s are berthed, plus naval airport where P-3s are berthed, plus other strategic targets.

How many 1000 kilo AASMs can each Rafale carry + jamming pod + litening pod (does it need a litening pod to help AASM hit the spot?) and 4 MICA missiles - 2 RF seeker and 2 IR!

According to Wiki:

Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi) with 3 drop tanks WHAT WOULD THE RANGE BE WITHOUT THESE 3 DROP TANKS
Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission

Could Rafale manage 547 km towards karachi + 447 km back from karachi + 10 mins dogfight ?

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... hter8.html

The Rafale can carry payloads of over 9t on 14 hardpoints for the air force version and 13 for the naval version.

If 2 hardpoints are taken by Litening and Jamming pods and 4 by Air to Air missiles then that leaves 8 hardpoints for AASMs.

But since Rafale can only carry 9 tons; so 8 AASMs of 1000kg arent' possible, seems 8 AASMs of 750 kg can be carried that comes to 6 tons. I have no clue the weight of railings plus pods and MICAs.

In case the above payload isn't wrong, then Karachi will be hit with 14 thousand 400 kilos of bombs.

[brar_w]

Rafale does not need external jamming pod.

[Manish_Sharma]

^Ahh good so maybe another AAM could be put on that pod, taking the number to 5 AAMs each and 8 AASMs of 750 kilograms each.

Does rafale needs litening pod?

[brar_w]

Yes the Rafale needs a targeting pod for IR A2G targeting. There are multiple pods for that. Not sure if there is a weapons clearance for a pod store. Without external tanks the rafale has around 10,000 pounds of fuel.

[Manish_Sharma]

So 24 Rafales carrying 8 AASMs of 750 kilos each, 1 targetting pod + 5 MICAs and Karachi goes kaput !!!

[Philip]

Tx guys for the views.The two birds were mentioned in the context of shoring up IAF fleet numbers cost-effectively,as hundreds of MIG series aircraft are long overdue to coin a word for "pasturising"! This is also due to the non-availability of the Late Combat Aircraft in significant numbers as of now,when the aircraft should've been well into series production.The huge problem with the LCA ,the nation's great hope,is that the MK-2 which involves some major redesigning,hasn't yet flown even in prototype form.By the time it is fully developed and ready for series production,nowhere before 2020,the obsolescence and limited capability factor in comparison with more modern aircraft,would've kicked in.The "120+" final numbers being bandied about by informed observers indicates that there is still going to be a huge shortfall of numbers merely to replace the retiring MIGs,etc.By 2020+,even the 100+ Jaguars will be long in the tooth,upgrades or not.

We could perhaps acquire 180 aircraft for the same price (120 GR/MIGs+60MMRCA) with a combination of the MMRCA and any of the other options.This would give us more platforms to counter a Sino-Pak JV.A Rafale might be "X" times more capable than a legacy aircraft,but cannot be in two places at the same time, on the Paki border and the north-east for example.In all our spats with Pak,a significant number of Indian troops and assets were always kept ready on the Chinese borders to forestall any Chinese attempt to come to the aid of its "all-weather friend". As the saying goes,"quantity has a quality of its own".

For "kicking in the door",a stealth bird is preferable and this is where the FGFA requirement comes in,(later on the AMCA as well,which will hopefully replace the medium sized menagerie we have right now) apart from its air dominance role.Perhaps the Super Sukhois with stand-off missiles like BMos/BMos-M would be a better option and the lack of a dedicated LR bomber is a serious blind spot in the IAF's eye.2 sqds. of SU-34s would significantly add to the IAF's LR strike capability.There was a recent report of Russian TU-95s (Bears) intruding into joint SoKo-Japanese naval exercises.They are being used extensively by Russia still.

We could perhaps acquire 180 aircraft for the same price (120 GR/MIGs+60MMRCA) with a combination of the MMRCA and any of the other options.This would give us more platforms to counter a Sino-Pak JV.

PS:Karachi's main claim to fame are its naval assets,all concentrated there.The IN possesses considerable firepower with its missiles,BMos surely has a range in excess of 300km,and with MKI air cover from the IAF ,endurance increased with tanker refuelling,could fire around anywhere between 50-100 missiles from its surface fleet and subs,not to mention stand-off strikes from carrier based MIG-29Ks.The key targets would be history in such a concerted attack.There would be no need for the Rafales,which could be used for effectively destroying targets on land,especially Pak's air defences and command centres. But it certainly would be fun to plan for a JV between the IN and IAF to castrate Karachi of its potency!

[Manish_Sharma]

Yes the Rafale needs a targeting pod for IR A2G targeting. There are multiple pods for that. Not sure if there is a weapons clearance for a pod store. Without external tanks the rafale has around 10,000 pounds of fuel.

Maybe this one: http://defense-update.com/20140117_thal ... AEHFKOxqeo

The French defence procurement agency DGA has awarded Thales with a contract for the development of a New Generation Laser Designation Pod (PDL NG). The contract follows the completion the risk reduction phase Thales has followed through 2013. The development is expected to continue for five years, with initial series production pods expected in 2018.

The PDL NG will provide French Air Forces fighter planes an improved day/night imaging capability, enhancing target engagement capabilities in complex theaters of operations. The new pod will be designed to integrate with both the Rafale and Mirage 2000D fighter aircraft.

The risk-reduction phase, the first step in the development of any programme, confirmed the system’s architecture, its high level of functional integration, reliability and the development schedule.

[NRao]

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. India’s Diligent Media Corporation (DNA) reports. In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). Today, according to the , its price could now soar to $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore). The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore) DNA quoted an anonymous Indian Air Force source close to the negotiation committee. In 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Karachi is not worth that much.

Also, if one were to click on the F3 upgrade link:

This preliminary work, self-funded by Dassault Aviation's are conducted in collaboration with the DGA and will eventually lead to a complete clearance of...

Wonder if this WS is a transient one.

[Manish_Sharma]

The defence ministry headed by AK Antony has developed cold feet after the cost doubled compared to the original estimate. With the general elections just months away, Antony is unsure about the fate of the deal, a defence ministry official said. India’s Diligent Media Corporation (DNA) reports. In January 2012, when Rafale was declared the winner, its price was quoted between $60-65 million (Rs373-Rs400 crore). Today, according to the , its price could now soar to $120 million (Rs746 crore). The second bidder, Eurofighter, had quoted $80-85 million (Rs497-Rs528 crore). The price hike would mean that the deal would cost India nothing less than $28-30 billion (Rs1.75 lakh crore-Rs1.86 lakh crore) DNA quoted an anonymous Indian Air Force source close to the negotiation committee. In 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs90,000 crore).

Karachi is not worth that much.

Jee, but NaMo-Jaitley have already ordered france to correct it:

http://idrw.org/?p=41841

According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates.

[Manish_Sharma]

Tx guys for the views.The two birds were mentioned in the context of shoring up IAF fleet numbers cost-effectively,as hundreds of MIG series aircraft are long overdue to coin a word for "pasturising"! This is also due to the non-availability of the Late Combat Aircraft in significant numbers as of now,when the aircraft should've been well into series production.

I have reported this post for the red part.

[Manish_Sharma]

Karachi is not worth that much.

Worth what? Worth 192 AASMs of 750 kilos each + fuel spent during the whole operation?

[Cosmo_R]

"According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates."

Mais oui, certainment. Donc, il faut que vous connaisez que nous serons obligés de vous facturer pour les tournevises.

Loosely translated: OK but we will have to bill you for the screwdrivers.

The Rafale is DOA just like the LUH.

[Cosmo_R]

Why do we need Rafales to 'kaput' Karachi? especially with Armement Air-Sol Modulaire which costs more per kg than a bottle of Bordeaux?

A few Kilos plus a couple of Arihants with Nirbhays would do the trick with ultimate stealth and zero observability.

The Rafales/EF/SH/F-16s/Gripens/MiG35s are a stupid investment.

LCA+ AMCA+ more SSGNs with Nirbhays and Brahmos.

It's all and only about delivering explosives most efficiently and stealthily.

[RoyG]

"According to officials privy to the development, the defence ministry has asked representatives of M/s Dassault Aviation – the French manufacturer of Rafale aircraft – to revise the price structure which has gone beyond expected estimates."

Mais oui, certainment. Donc, il faut que vous connaisez que nous serons obligés de vous facturer pour les tournevises.

Loosely translated: OK but we will have to bill you for the screwdrivers.

The Rafale is DOA just like the LUH.

I agree, the rafale deal in it's present form has already been flushed completely/partially down the toilet. Either it will be scrapped or the fighter count will drop. Honestly, seems like su-30's are going to be ordered and LCA is going to be transferred to private sector for mass production. We just don't have the money and the ToT benefits are dubious given that no country will really share their secrets with us in the aeronautical domain.

[NRao]

If they are going to order more MKIs, why not order Rafale from France itself?

The issue is not the technology, it is the cost. France should be able to provide rafales for some $60-80 per.

Also, India needs *just enough* to deter China (idea being that if China starts the Paki will join, but if Paki starts China may not).

I think the Rafale - some 100, bought or leased - from France should do the trick.

There is another angle to this: "deter". The IN will play a role in this too. So, a robust IN will deter china on the border.

[brar_w]

60 Million USD for an export Rafale? Probably closer to 80-100 $ Million flyaway without weapons.

[Manish_Sharma]

A little scenario I've written to understand what the payload-range-armament of Rafale brings to add to IAF capability:

NIGHT OF AMAVAS

The calm and silence was complete, the sky as dark as expected on a Amavas night and as cloudy as expected in late July.

As the carts pulled silently on sunken cheeked platforms, lining them up; loaded for bear all 36 of them. Their tanks filled to capacity with. Each of sunken cheeked combat aircrafts had been loaded with exactly same combo of armaments + targeting pod.

Each Rafale jet carried 8 AASM of 750 kgs. 3 MICA IRs and 2 Radar Guided Micas.

Night before their timing of arrival was also chosen with alertness and caution. When no overhead satellite either from china-US-britain was passing over and around the areas of the Porbandar Rafales after their usual checkups and fueling had taken off from Lohegaon Pune and landed in Porbandar. While the pods-armaments and railings with the trained crew had been planted 3 days back.

As the crew went to work loading the jets with armament and pods, the IT wing of RAW agents were monitoring every email – phone call – sms going out of Porbandar. In fact the moment first jet was to land in Porbandar airport till half and hour after the last one had landed. Most of the mobile – landline and email services were jammed. Though not many people noticed as it happened in late hours of night.
So far so good – thought the IT branch teamleader of RAW. No message had been sent towards the western neighbor or Bangladesh or towards Dubai.

As Group Captain Archit Munde took the lead and his beloved Rafale left the airstrip but only 100 feet of height.

GC Mude had been flying Rafale for 3 years now, before he had been involved in the testing of much dragged on MMRCA competition and loved the capabilities of French jet:

Rafale has excellent payload for its small size. Officially Rafale C can carry a incredible 20900 pounds of payload despite the fact that it is slightly smaller than Typhoon which can carry only 16500 pounds.

The payload of Rafale C is also officially MORE than F-18EF ( F-18EF is 42% larger than rafale C, but F-18ef carries only 17700 pound officially).

And this is not all. When Rafale get its uprated M88-3 engine and when the new 3000 liter (792.6gals) center line external fuel tank is being qualified for use, rafale external payload weight will further increase to almost 23000 pound !!! Thats almost the same as the 24000 pounds achieve by the 50-65% larger F-15E.

Rafale C MTOW will soon be increase to 60,000 pounds. Rafale C is about 20680 pound when empty. Its MTOW to empty weight ratio is 2.9 times !!

F-15E MTOW to empty ratio is 2.56 or less. F-15E probably rank second.

No other airplane is close or even close. eurofighter Typhoon MTWO to empty weight is only 2.14 !

B-2 bomber may have highere MTOW to empty weight ratio. But B-2 is a subsonic load carrying bomber. For fighter plane comparison Rafale C MTOW to empty weight ratio is HIGHEST among all supersonic fighre aircraft.

Much before the announcement of 2 jets shortlisted, he had known the outcome during Leh trials itself, where while Ef2k had minor glitch of not starting after being left in the open in cold night.

The main failures were teens of US which failed to take off with listed payload. While later they tried again it was with piddly 2 air to air missiles and took the double of runway then other jets to take off!

Back to the present! The orders from South Block were clear, they were to take out 3 Agosta Submarines + other assortment of surface fleet berthed at Karachi harbor. Mehran Airforce base. Karachi Shipyard and Engineering works where Agosta subs were being upgraded.

As all the Rafales took to sky they were divided in 4 formations of 9 jets each.


While 36 Tejas Light Combat Aircrafts were being prepared for Air to Air combat. Armed with 4 Python 5s & 4 Astra Mk II BVR missiles. They were to take off 0330 hrs the supposed time when Rafales would have just emptied their load of 288 AASMs at pre-decided targets. While at the same time Naval satellite INSAT-4F would be flying over Karachi to provide live images.

INS Vikramaditya maintaining a steady course to reach parallel to Porbandar Godi area, its 27 Mig 29Ks primed to air to air plus air to ship roles. 18 of Ks were armed for air to air while 9 were loaded with anti ship missiles.
***

Just as the first 9 jets of 4 formations of Rafale reached 100 kms west of porbandar coast they turned towards north still flying 100 feet above the ground going at slow speed of 700 kms per hour as that was the most fuel economic speed to take. While also the slow speed didn’t let the surface of jets grow to hot for IR to read them.

http://goo.gl/b4sqWG

As the course pre-decided had been given thumbs up by P8 I flying 220 kms northwest of naliya that no PN ship was there in the path, the lone Pakistani coastguard ship was a minor irritant as it was sailing 50 kms south west of Karachi harbor and would have alerted the naval base of Karachi though those 50 kms. Rafales would cover in less then 6 minutes still no chance could be taken.

Flight lieutenant Somesh Khanna had been Flight lieutenant Arjun Ranade flying the last jets of first formation had been given the task of taking it out. As the formation approached near the ship alerting the staff to look at horizon following the noise of 9 jets flying just 100 feet above the sea level.

By the time they could decide any action. The formation was around 30 kms and two of the Rafales had let go of 1 AASM each; Within seconds both the 750 kilo warheads hit Pakistani coastguard ship one at port side waterline while other directly at the bridge, killing everyone on bridge, destroying radio communication.

The ship was in no position to alert the Pakistanis.
Within 6 minutes Rafales were over Karachi harbor and could make out the outlines of Agostas. While first 4 jets emptied their AASM over Agostas and 6 other ships standing, the next 4 showered the rest of their AASM payloads over 20 pre-decided targets on Karachi seen in the latest images taken by INSAT-4F 3 days ago. Now these 9 jets had emptied out their AASMs completely leaving the harbor with its subs, ships, radar, ammo and fuel dump.

As the air raid sirens shrieked the second formation of 9 Rafales had already reached over PNS Mehran each emptying out their load of AASMs, while radar and anti aircraft systems were first to be hit, the rest was enough to bury PN air capability for decades to come. All the 8 P3 orions standing their were obliterated under barrage of AASMs the whole lot of Hawker / ATR Squadron (29 Sqn), Fokker Squadron (27 Sqn), Seaking Squadron (111 Sqn), Z9EC Squadron (222 Sqn) Alouette Squadron (333 Sqn), were now left in ashes.

Just like chess moves the IAF mission planners had seen the next steps of porki reaction, that was both the PAF airbases near Karachi launched their F-7s and Mirage-III rose and Mirage 5s in total 18 aircraft, which were all shot down by Rafale formation 1 and formation 2.

As the Rafales were now only left with nexter guns as armaments and barely enough fuel to reach Nalia airbase they turned around and flew south, while on the way they were crossed over by Tejas fighters, in case they were being pursued.

While the 3rd and 4th formation of Rafales pounded Karachi Shipyard and Engineering works obliterating all the French and Chinese tooling machines the agostas being built and upgraded and other Chinese gifted destroyers and frigates. As expected 144 AASMs weighing 750 kilos each hitting any Shipyard won’t leave anything standing. It was a rubble. While the Mirpur Khas airbase launched its F-7s, JF-17s along with Swedish awacs, they were caught from both the sides south was formation of 36 Tejas which were taking down Jf-17 with ease and from north the Rafales were picking F-7s and Mirage IIIrds easily.

The Swedish awacs turned its tail and ran towards east. While Rafales were met over Naliya airbase by IL-78 refuellers and flew on towards Lohegaon AB just like formation 1 and 2.

http://fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/faci ... irbase.gif
***