Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions-9 August, 2014

[member_20317]

The fear is not with the Rafale - India can always pay more and make it work better (which is what will happen). France will take care of my fears - pay them, that is all they care about.

The fear is about India falling even further back. (Of course the answer to that is why do you have to fear and some special rights and other never ending nonsense.)

Even with India's special geographic location, huge population, China, now ISIS, etc people are still crying about what the US did or did not do 16 years ago?

So much goodwill for SDREs.

But man you still cannot better this:

In fact, were the IAF to choose either the F-16IN or the F/A-18E/F as its MMRCA fighter, it should make the option to acquire F-35s subsequently a condition of the deal.

..........................

Technology, Technology, Technology.

Well then slog slog slog for it.

Just ask ask ask for it is no good.

[Viv S]

One early-80s era aircraft employing poor tactics (out of complacency) downed. A type that was retired in 2008 after 27 years of operation.

As for what people learned from it -

Dassault Neuron
BAE Taranis
AVIC 601-S
MiG Skat
DRDO AURA

But all of those are *unmanned* systems that cost a fraction of the JSF or F-117. What we've learned is how to minimize the loss of life and cash when those systems are shot down. Not supportive of your argument. The very use of an UCAV/UAV implies that the user has accepted attrition as an reality. If even 10% of JSFs are lost the US would go broke very quickly. It frankly won't kill Bharat if we lose 1,2, or even 10 Aura to take out one HQ-9 site. You can't say the same. Losing 10 JSF to kill one HQ-9 will leave the US nowhere.

Where did you get such... extraordinary notions? That is to say, who told you that UCAVs 'cost a fraction of the JSF or F-117'?

FYI, the flyaway cost for UAVs varies from $17M for the Reaper, to $25M+ for the Predator-C (Avenger) to all the way upto $120M for the Global Hawk.

To say that for the $70-75M cost of the F-35A, you can buy 'multiple' Taranis/Neuron/X-45/X-47 type UCAVs is 'misinformed' (to use a charitable phrase).

[Philip]

Viv is right.One of the intriguing ironies about UAVs/UCAVs today is that their costs without the paraphenalia required for a pilot still cost almost as much as a manned fighter.The USN is looking at some reduced capability for its UCLASS unmanned systems to make it more affordable.For the forseeable future,we will have to find a balance between manned and unmanned aircraft primarily for the cost factor.Of course,prosecuting enemy targets using UCAVs is so attractive because of no risk of a pilot being captured after being shot down and becoming an international media circus.The tragic loss of 2 Typhoons that collided over Italy,killing all four pilots is another tangential factor.A lost UCAV does not lose a pilot.

Dhan has made a very valid point.Indo-China trade is heavily in China's favour,to the tune of $50B?! This is an absurdity.The Modi govt. should therefore use subtle tactics to reduce it,say ban certain items because carcinogenic chems are being used-we see this on our streets every day,the cheap toys and small-scale sector items that has devastated Indian small scale industry.The list could go on with increased duty for Chinese made items,specifically because they keep on issuing chit visas to Ar.Pr. and J&K/Ladakh residents.
This huge fig. of $50B allows the Chines each year to massively increase its arsenal.We would be far better off with even a total ban/increased duty on Chinese goods to make them exceptionally unattractive to importers. What do we stand to lose? Nothing!

[Cosmo_R]

@Dhananjay ^^^: No "funny coincidence" if you can build it locally like the LCA MK2 and eventually the AMCA or whatever, you build.

If you can't build P8s/C-130s and you need them, you buy. For the IN it was a choice between IL-38s/TU-95s and the P8s and they chose the latter.

Just so we are clear on this: FX reserves <> 'kitty'

We be broke and can't afford the Rafale or the SH/EF or whatever.

If you don't have money, every rupee/dollar spent on nice to haves is profligacy. Gotta haves is another matter.

[Manish_Sharma]

@Dhananjay ^^^: No "funny coincidence" if you can build it locally like the LCA MK2 and eventually the AMCA or whatever, you build.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... s#p1692808

Have been posting this message on Prime Minister portal for a month now regularly again and again, using up postal addresses of aunts, uncles, cousins, friends:

Equip IAF with 1500 Tejas LCA, instead of a 200 million dollar foreign jet in 126 numbers only. Rafale cost at 200 million a jet, while Tejas only costs 25 million per aircraft.

When PRC launches 3000 fighter on the first day of combat, IAF will press every flyable matchbox to fight back even Hawks and IJT will be called upon - equivalent to &39muck hitting the fan&39 moment for IAF. At the time what would IAF prefer

126 uber expensive europeanamerican jet OR 1500 Tejas taking on PRC airforce

500 Tejas Mk I and 1000 Tejas Mk II will make the borders on Bharatvarsh safe, while creating a big infrastruction of factories foundaries inhouse for the nation.

Due to less quantities of Tejas and Arjun tank, due to piddly quantity of orders.

If Arjun is ordered in same number as T-90 tank like 1600 tanks it will be economical to set up factories in Bharatvarsh for every nut and bolt will not be needed to import. Same for Tejas.

But what I saw was american salesmen here were waging their war for F-35, let's take the example of 'Viv S':

Hai ram! no money lets buy 300 Tejas instead | What was hidden which is coming up now is that along with 300 Tejas WE MUST BUY 60 F-35s costing 45 billion dollars ! Fine so until Rafale was being bought there was no money, but we have to have 45 billions for F-35s.

If you can't build P8s/C-130s and you need them, you buy. For the IN it was a choice between IL-38s/TU-95s and the P8s and they chose the latter.

Exactly, but I was pointing it out to Shri NRao when he made this suggestion that IAF should buy second hand Rafales and use them up till 2035 then dump them. I was trying to point out why this can't be done for C-17s C-130s etc.? Soviets/russians made more than 700 Il-76, there must be dozens and dozens available second hand somewhere.

But no IAF shouldn't have any maintenance headaches, they must buy super-efficient super-expensive C-17s.

But when it comes to Rafale these very people lose their concerns for IAF having maintenance headaches etc.

See I'm totally fine with 100s of Tejas in place of Rafale, but when some people slimely try to sneak in their super expensive flying hippo then it has to be countered.

Just so we are clear on this: FX reserves <> 'kitty'

To be honest, this I didn't know, though I suspected very much that lootera looteri couple like chidu-sonia would leave so much behind in kitty. I wrote it. Thanks for clearing it up.

We be broke and can't afford the Rafale or the SH/EF or whatever. If you don't have money, every rupee/dollar spent on nice to haves is profligacy. Gotta haves is another matter.

Exactly but then what applies to SH/EF applies to F-35 too, that's what I've been countering.

[NRao]

Exactly, but I was pointing it out to Shri NRao when he made this suggestion that IAF should buy second hand Rafales and use them up till 2035 then dump them. I was trying to point out why this can't be done for C-17s C-130s etc.? Soviets/russians made more than 700 Il-76, there must be dozens and dozens available second hand somewhere.

Shri NRao answered that ............................ in his previous life that too. Wake up.

BTW, I have no clue what is "Exactly" in that post of yours.

[NRao]

BTW, although not related to the MMRCA itself, relevant to a great extent:

Adm. [rtd] Arun Prakash :: Import dependence impacting Indian forces' combat readiness

Duh!!!!!

So, where should the funds, preferably, be channeled?

Excessive self-delusion can prove just as damaging as unnecessary self-denigration; and nothing proves this better than the sorry state of defence research and production that has pushed India to No.1 position as an arms importer.

indigenisation:

undertook the herculean task of integrating the melange of Russian, Israeli, Dutch, French, Italian, and Indian systems which went into this ship

Nowhere else in the world is such a complex undertaking attempted, but WESEE's endeavours have been invariably rewarded with success. To WESEE also goes huge credit for developing the electronic nerve-centre of the ship, its combat management system or CMS - again a unique and sterling achievement.

However, we need to squarely face the fact that the ability of Indian built warships 'to move, to see and to fight' comes almost exclusively from high-technology systems imported from abroad. A media scan shows that the Kolkata's gas-turbine engines, generators, propellers and shafting, gear-box, gun systems, the surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, and radars are all imported. Most systems claimed as 'indigenous' have been assembled under licence - with minimal value-addition by Indian scientists. Thus, if the value of imported content is reckoned, it may come to as much as 70-80 percent of the ship's cost

Boom .........................

As the new government takes stock, the import dependence of our armed forces must figure on top of its national security agenda, because it extracts a huge toll in terms of combat-readiness and renders 'strategic autonomy' a meaningless nostrum.

And, the Rafale will not help .....................

Trapped in a time-warp, our defence research and production establishments are verging on dysfunctionality, but there is no one to either take responsibility or demand accountability.

[Karan M]

Adm prakash's note:"A media scan shows"... and therein lies the problem. There has been little reported about the increasing local content in the sensor suite of the larger warships. While Adm Prakash may have justifiable pride in WEESE a lot of the items are actually as much of BEL's babies as they are of WEESE's.
A fair number of local systems:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rg0M3Axo47E/U ... shment.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ebOcM4FiIZg/U ... system.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fX-VfSmLw2E/U ... uite-1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qldKk2bZU8k/U ... uite-1.JPG
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fX-VfSmLw2E/U ... uite-1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CrbsKK5DkYo/U ... uite-2.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UEcwfTY0I-s/U ... Bsonar.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6PD4ZOsCDI0/U ... ecoy-1.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GF4Wfp1zRno/U ... cher-1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gLx9VPHodI8/U ... logies.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IGR8ufbvto8/U ... BEOFCS.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-K8fsRFWlQY8/U ... ware-7.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HGfOJZTgVqc/U ... ware-8.jpg

etc etc etc

[NRao]

Are you disputing the final numbers? If so, what is your estimate? (Just trying to get a picture. Thx)

[Karan M]

His numbers to put it mildly are off because he is picking and choosing how he chooses to interpret the data.
Adm Prakash is one of the folks who are pro Indigenization, but lets just say that he & many others are not really into sitting and doing detailed comparisons. They revel in broad flourishes - see the "big picture" they say - problem is the big picture tends to be made of details & those change since programs get completed etc. Other things are omitted.

For instance,
A media scan shows that the Kolkata's gas-turbine engines, generators, propellers and shafting, gear-box, gun systems, the surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, and radars are all imported. Most systems claimed as 'indigenous' have been assembled under licence - with minimal value-addition by Indian scientists.

Now, the above omits all those items I put up in the previous post! And the bigger question is why exactly are the gun systems, shafting etc a sign of the problems re: the local defence establishment or how do they merit any tangent if there are no local programs under the same? There are no national programs for shafting etc and nor has the Navy financed any such programs. Now, Adm Prakash could have (justifiably) pointed out the delays in the LRSAM, the failure of the original towed array sonar (even though it was decided to import & its the MOD which sat on the file under Antony) - but the items he brings out are more an issue of program plans (no firm, private or public f.e. has been funded extensively to indigenize all the Navy's shafting etc - only some programs are sourced locally) as versus any "dsyfunction etc".
Fund a program - and back it to the hilt & L&T will likely make most of your electricals. Question is why such a program never got launched. And that ties back to the Navy itself and in turn, the MOD which stifled such plans in the past 8 odd years (see the battery for submarines case). In short, its addressing the wrong set of folks with the wrong items.

[Manish_Sharma]

BTW, although not related to the MMRCA itself, relevant to a great extent:

Adm. [rtd] Arun Prakash :: Import dependence impacting Indian forces' combat readiness

Duh!!!!!

So, where should the funds, preferably, be channeled?

Excessive self-delusion can prove just as damaging as unnecessary self-denigration; and nothing proves this better than the sorry state of defence research and production that has pushed India to No.1 position as an arms importer.

indigenisation:

undertook the herculean task of integrating the melange of Russian, Israeli, Dutch, French, Italian, and Indian systems which went into this ship

Nowhere else in the world is such a complex undertaking attempted, but WESEE's endeavours have been invariably rewarded with success. To WESEE also goes huge credit for developing the electronic nerve-centre of the ship, its combat management system or CMS - again a unique and sterling achievement.

However, we need to squarely face the fact that the ability of Indian built warships 'to move, to see and to fight' comes almost exclusively from high-technology systems imported from abroad. A media scan shows that the Kolkata's gas-turbine engines, generators, propellers and shafting, gear-box, gun systems, the surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, and radars are all imported. Most systems claimed as 'indigenous' have been assembled under licence - with minimal value-addition by Indian scientists. Thus, if the value of imported content is reckoned, it may come to as much as 70-80 percent of the ship's cost

Boom .........................

As the new government takes stock, the import dependence of our armed forces must figure on top of its national security agenda, because it extracts a huge toll in terms of combat-readiness and renders 'strategic autonomy' a meaningless nostrum.

And, the Rafale will not help .....................

Trapped in a time-warp, our defence research and production establishments are verging on dysfunctionality, but there is no one to either take responsibility or demand accountability.

Rafale won't but F-35 A B C manufactured in america will?
along with emals etc.?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1697376

I *think* the IAF *needs* a good mix (50-50) of F-35A and F-35B. They seem to have "deep" and "plains" covered, but, even there no harm investing in improvements.

The IN can follow with a mix of F-35B and F-35C (with perhaps the EMALS + E-2 + whatever)

[Viv S]

But what I saw was american salesmen here were waging their war for F-35, let's take the example of 'Viv S':

Hai ram! no money lets buy 300 Tejas instead | What was hidden which is coming up now is that along with 300 Tejas WE MUST BUY 60 F-35s costing 45 billion dollars ! Fine so until Rafale was being bought there was no money, but we have to have 45 billions for F-35s.

As has been stated numerous times before there is no overlap in roles between the two.

Tejas: CAP, CAS, Interdiction, Interception/QRA, Escort
F-35: Deep Strike, ELINT, SEAD, DEAD, ISR, anti-AWACS.

The Rafale is too expensive for the former and technically unsuitable for the latter.

Trying to pass off $45 billion as the acquisition cost is just theatrics on your part. Unless you'd like to compare the equivalent life-cycle cost for the Rafale as well (FYI $20bn+ is only the upfront cost for the Rafales).

Exactly, but I was pointing it out to Shri NRao when he made this suggestion that IAF should buy second hand Rafales and use them up till 2035 then dump them. I was trying to point out why this can't be done for C-17s C-130s etc.? Soviets/russians made more than 700 Il-76, there must be dozens and dozens available second hand somewhere.

When were the Soviet-era IL-76s built? 25 years back? Or is 30 years? What is the residual airframe life?

[Rien]

Dassault Neuron

Where did you get such... extraordinary notions? That is to say, who told you that UCAVs 'cost a fraction of the JSF or F-117'?

FYI, the flyaway cost for UAVs varies from $17M for the Reaper, to $25M+ for the Predator-C (Avenger) to all the way upto $120M for the Global Hawk.

To say that for the $70-75M cost of the F-35A, you can buy 'multiple' Taranis/Neuron/X-45/X-47 type UCAVs is 'misinformed' (to use a charitable phrase).

Your wiki link: €25 million. That's no less than 3 Dassault Neurons even at your LM flyaway price. At the real price of the F-35A, Australia paid 2.4 billion for 58 fighters.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s3990812.htm

For US $400 million per plane, 13 Dassault Neurons. Competing systems can do the same job at 1/13th the price. Or they can do drop 13x as many bombs. So the hypothetical need for a JSF to take out the HQ-9 falls apart. The DRDO AURA can get the job done for far less.

[brar_w]

Your wiki link: €25 million. That's no less than 3 Dassault Neurons even at your LM flyaway price

Dassault Neuron is a technology demonstrator. Where is it going to go out and even accomplish even a partial mission set of an F-35 at this stage? You do realize the difference between a technology demonstrator and a fully developed, mission system laden, designed to mission need operational aircraft?

After the technology demonstrator concludes its mission france along with the UK will embark on a broad set of capabilities that they would have to design, develop and field into an operational aircraft sometime around 2025-2030 time frame.

Boeing built the X-45 A's back a decade ago for 10-15 million per airship (vehicle). Does this mean that you can buy 10-12 X-45A combat vehicles for the price of one F-35A? Are you going to take a technology demonstrator, use its cost and extrapolate a systems cost of a fully developed " to spec" airship? BTW the current iteration of the J-UCAS pegs the cost of an orbit at around $150 Million per (around 75 million per fully system laden UCLASS) without the requirement for VLO or penetrating IADs that would add to the cost further.

[Rien]

Viv is right.One of the intriguing ironies about UAVs/UCAVs today is that their costs without the paraphenalia required for a pilot still cost almost as much as a manned fighter.

Hey Philip, the DRDO AURA will cost 1/10 th of a JSF and be better at dropping bombs. This flows from the very nature of an UCAV. It has better uptime and it's easy to have pilots fly it around the clock. The cost advantage comes from the Kaveri engine, which is 1/10 the price of the US GE404. No manned fighter is comparable in cost. All Desi Maal is 7/8x cheaper than videshi.

[Viv S]

Your wiki link: €25 million. That's no less than 3 Dassault Neurons even at your LM flyaway price. At the real price of the F-35A, Australia paid 2.4 billion for 58 fighters.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s3990812.htm

For US $400 million per plane, 13 Dassault Neurons. Competing systems can do the same job at 1/13th the price. Or they can do drop 13x as many bombs. So the hypothetical need for a JSF to take out the HQ-9 falls apart. The DRDO AURA can get the job done for far less.

The Neuron is a TECH DEMONSTRATOR. Or research vehicle if you prefer. The actual production UCAV is being co-developed with the UK and will be far more expensive even accounting for greater economies of scale. Also, the €25 million ($33 mil) cost is analogous to the flyaway cost of the F-35 i.e. $75 million. Its utterly ridiculous to compare it to the [procurement + support + weapons complement] cost of the F-35.

[Rien]

Your wiki link: €25 million. That's no less than 3 Dassault Neurons even at your LM flyaway price

Dassault Neuron is a technology demonstrator. Where is it going to go out and even accomplish even a partial mission set of an F-35 at this stage? You do realize the difference between a technology demonstrator and a fully developed, mission system laden, designed to mission need operational aircraft?

From the same Wiki link

Derived production UCAV unit cost is estimated by Dassault to be €25 million

And now you know how *I* feel about Lockheed Martin estimates regurgitated with no critical thought. Neither Lockheed Martin nor Dassault can come up with even vaguely credible estimates. But Viv was asking where I got the idea that UCAVs are much cheaper. By reading his links!

[brar_w]

Derived production UCAV unit cost is estimated by Dassault to be €25 million

And no citation. I can go in and change that to 100 Million. How do you estimate a cost of something who's design and broad capability hasn't even been finalized yet? Its like pegging the cost of the current UCLASS (whose RFP's will be issued next week) back in 2003-4 when the first J-UCAS vehicles began testing. Not going to be possible.

If you want to see how Unmanned programs evolve, look at the J-UCAS and N-UCAS efforts. They have tested every possible configuration, stealth, semi stealth, no stealth, SEAD, ISR..autonomous coordinated SEAD etc etc. The current capability calls for a Modest RCS (Not VLO) ISR mission with a secondary strike payload of around 1500 pounds total and a two ship continuos orbit (24x7) at around 150 million per orbit (2 ships). Thats a very very tiny fraction of the F-35A's mission for about the same fly away cost in the same time frame (F-35 full rate of production expected 2018-19, UCLASS LRIP begins in 2019-2020). Add stealth, greater payload and the big ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM - fully autonomous (Data link and GPS denied environment) strike in highly contested corridors (Pacific) and you can increase the cost by quite a bit (while still the aircraft only performs a fraction of the F-35's mission set).

And now you know how *I* feel about Lockheed Martin estimates regurgitated with no critical thought. Neither Lockheed Martin nor Dassault can come up with even vaguely credible estimates.

Neither lockheed nor Dassault are required to come up with estimates. The Program that formulates RFP's comes up with estimates on cost of a desired capability unless one uses WIKI as a legit source and claims such to be the case

[Rien]

The Neuron is a TECH DEMONSTRATOR. Or research vehicle if you prefer. The actual production UCAV is being co-developed with the UK and will be far more expensive even accounting for greater economies of scale. Also, the €25 million ($33 mil) cost is analogous to the flyaway cost of the F-35 i.e. $75 million. Its utterly ridiculous to compare it to the [procurement + support + weapons complement] cost of the F-35.

According to Dassault, that is the cost for the production unit as mentioned in the Wiki. And it is going to be based on the Snecma M-88 engine, so they already have an existing infrastructure. That price is credible because reuse of engine and avionics. I notice that even you realize how devastating that would be for the JSF. Even the PAK-FA is in real danger if the EU can deliver planes built at this price.

[brar_w]

You do realize that the Neuron is a tech demonstrator? Or are you that naive that you'll take a straight costing figure from wiki (without any proof) to be gospel? The Neuron was a 400+ Million $ program that was to develop and field a tech demonstrator and not a fully functional combat UCAV.

[brar_w]

According to Dassault, that is the cost for the production unit as mentioned in the Wiki.

Welcome to the world of WIKI -

Derived production UCAV unit cost is estimated by Dassault to be €275 million.

Wiki links without a citation are absolutely useless. Want me to go in there and change the cost to 1 billion? How about 10 billion?

Here you go , 260,000+ Neurons for the cost of one F-35

[GeorgeWelch]

A more modest program
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_G ... lobal_Hawk

Unit cost: US$131.4M

Each aircraft was to cost US$35 million in 2005,[2] but this had risen to $222.7M per aircraft (including development costs) by 2013.

[brar_w]

@GW the Global Hawk was fast tracked on many fronts to get it out to the warfighter in the front line. The Engineering challenge on station meant a 3-4x rise in labor cost for very high paying engineering jobs (hazard pay). The capability has also been significantly upped from the original plan due to the needs and lessons learnt from actual combat mission. The block 40 GH is something totally different and the Triton something that the Global hawk was never meant to be. A global hawk is not the correct tool for a comparison since its mission is very very different. For Combat UCAV the UCLASS with a non stealthy, non IAD penetrating ISR (primary) and 1500 pounds strike (secondary) capability is estimated at around 75 million per air vehicle (don't know if its with or without the mission systems). Add stealth and the all important capability of actually existing in a RF and GPS denied environment and the cost can easily double or increase further - the USN has also said that they cannot make that bird and still manage IOC by 2020 (A VLO, penetrative Strike UCAV with all the goodies required to overcome Pacific IAD challenges) or 2022.

[Manish_Sharma]

Let's just name this
"Anything but RAFALE MMRCA THREAD"

Edited to remove colours.

[abhik]

Let's just name this
"Anything but RAFALE MMRCA THREAD"

It ain't over till the fat lady sings

[brar_w]

Let's just name this
"Anything but RAFALE MMRCA THREAD"

Relax, the rafale deal will be signed soon

[TSJones]

^^^^That's my understanding too. It's pretty much a done deal. I don't know what they are worried about.

[Yagnasri]

I am not sure it will be signed. Cost is very high and NM may examine the matter before signing.

[Manish_Sharma]

^Very true, as Klaus ji also mentioned:

The new dispensation in New Delhi will not cancel the Rafale deal entirely, they will choose to halve the deal for IAF while purchasing the Rafale-M for the IN in numbers.

The IAF/IN's air-arm will continue to remain a menagerie for the short term.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1693932

[NRao]

Just btw, the Rsfale-M was rejected(?) By the IN some time back. They dif issue an RFI for the JSF - B/C.

[Manish_Sharma]

I think Admiral Shri Arun Prakash had flown Rafale and loved it.

[arthuro]

An old article on vayuaerospace posted on mp.net (extract) :

[arthuro]

LCA-Navy Not What We Want, But It's Ours": FONA

"It may not be what we want, but it is our own aircraft," says the Indian Navy's Flag Officer Naval Aviation (FONA) Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai on the LCA Navy in an interview to FORCE magazine. He was asked how effective the LCA Navy would be for a carrier-based role given that it "only an eight ton platform". The officer's response: "I wish wish we could straightaway develop a Rafale. But seriously, we have to look at the Indian Navy and it commitment towards indigenisation. I agree that we have made a modest start, but it has been a huge learning experience.LCA Navy will remain a modest platform with an uprated engine which will give us adequate capability at sea. While it is easy to buy from abroad, sometimes it is extremely difficult to support those platforms. Our past experiences tell us that it is worth committing resources to develop our own assets."
Also, unless the LCA Navy decides to fly tomorrow or the day after, looks like it will be missing its December first flight schedule. What a pity.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/12/ ... -ours.html

[eklavya]

Is that a promise? US will sell F-35 to India for $75m a piece?

Flyaway cost in 2014 dollars, yes that's what every export customer including India will pay. That's how the FMS system works.

The flyaway cost is a meaningless number though, right. The initial acquisition cost (without weapons) for the 65 Canadian F-35As is $9bn i.e. $138.5m per a/c.

Then, we have this news from Japan, which will spend $1.2bn on just 6 F-35A ($200m per a/c):

Japan looking to buy more stealth fighters in fiscal 2015

TOKYO -- The Ministry of Defense plans to seek funding for the purchase of six F-35 stealth fighter jets in next fiscal year's budget to strengthen defense of remote southwestern islands against China, which has grown increasingly assertive at sea and in the air.

The ministry intends to ask that 124.9 billion yen ($1.2 billion) be set aside. The Air Self-Defense Force hopes to buy 42 of the aircraft in all to replace its fleet of aging F-4 fighters. The new fighters will be scrambled when foreign planes approach Japanese airspace.

see also:

Is High Cost of F-35 Pushing Japan To Build Indigenous Fighter?

The Japanese Ministry of Defense has announced plans to buy six F-35As next year, and they’re asking for a $1.21 billion budget to do it.

The news comes only days after a consortium led by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries unveiled a mock-up of the country’s first indigenously made stealth fighter aircraft.

Called the Advanced Technology Demonstrator-X, or ATD-X, the aircraft has similar technology to the F-35 stealth fighters with a prototype set for a test run in January.

Following the initial flight, the jet will undergo about two years of testing at the defence ministry with Tokyo set to decide on whether to buy the plane by early 2019.

The MoD has been struggling with rising costs and various difficulties with the troubled F-35 stealth fighter program. The Air Self-Defense Force hopes to buy 42 of the aircraft in all to replace its fleet of aging F-4 fighters, the Nikkei said.

Looks like the true cost of the F-35 is VLO (Very Low Observable) and VFA (Very Few Affordable)

[Manish_Sharma]

My sashtang dandvat pranaams to Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai and indigenisation supporter Bharatiya Nau-Sena!



It was around 10-12 years ago that I'd read Robert Ludlum's "Rhinemann Exchange" that I was in for a shock. The plot was a deal stuck between Third Reich and US administration.

US bomber planes were falling out of sky due to mis-functioning gyroscopes so the plane operators couldn't tell the hieght they were on. While germany had run out of industrial diamonds which were essential for V1 and V2 rockets. So in argentina the exchange has to happen Americans will be given blueprints for gyroscopes and americans will provide industrial diamonds for germany as a price.

I'd thought what if Bharat is ever in such a prolonged war? How will we manage with indigenous stuff? For sure america had to keep making its faulty platforms till they were able to purchase/steal the correct tech; untill then go on fighting with inferior stuff.

Ef2k flies with stone in nose and gets inducted by Euro AFs. It may not even be fully capable in A to G till 2018. While Rafale has no IRST but no complaint from french and they induct.

I'm sure even mki would have missed some sensor or other for many years, IIRC it was RWR.

But Tejas has to go on testing each and everything fully only then'll be inducted by IAF.

[Manish_Sharma]

DELETED.

[Aditya_V]

My sashtang dandvat pranaams to Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai and indigenisation supporter Bharatiya Nau-Sena!



It was around 10-12 years ago that I'd read Robert Ludlum's "Rhinemann Exchange" that I was in for a shock. The plot was a deal stuck between Third Reich and US administration.

US bomber planes were falling out of sky due to mis-functioning gyroscopes so the plane operators couldn't tell the hieght they were on. While germany had run out of industrial diamonds which were essential for V1 and V2 rockets. So in argentina the exchange has to happen Americans will be given blueprints for gyroscopes and americans will provide industrial diamonds for germany as a price.

I'd thought what if Bharat is ever in such a prolonged war? How will we manage with indigenous stuff? For sure america had to keep making its faulty platforms till they were able to purchase/steal the correct tech; untill then go on fighting with inferior stuff.

Ef2k flies with stone in nose and gets inducted by Euro AFs. It may not even be fully capable in A to G till 2018. While Rafale has no IRST but no complaint from french and they induct.

I'm sure even mki would have missed some sensor or other for many years, IIRC it was RWR.

But Tejas has to go on testing each and everything fully only then'll be inducted by IAF.

Can we keep this CT out of here. American Bombing campaigns destroyed Germany and they were desperate for them to stop, the whole V2 and V1's were fired to for that purpose. Hardly likely Germany would have done any such exchange.

[NRao]

Besides, Robert Ludlum's "Rhinemann Exchange" is a novel!!!

At times it is difficult to discern fiction from fact.

The museum in Dayton has details of such things all displayed. Even German and French engines (innovation for you).

[Indranil]

All. Get back to topic or face the consequences.

[Manish_Sharma]

All. Get back to topic or face the consequences.

Topic which is "Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions" has been turned into "JSF instead of Rafale for MMRCA Campaign", so hardsellers of jsf are continuously hijacking the real theme of this thread.