India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

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srai
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by srai »

hecky wrote:Breakthrough in indigenous E/O sensor tech
A heartening new indigenous development could take care of India's over-dependence on foreign suppliers for critical electro-optical sensors for surface payloads. The DRDO's Instruments Research and Development Establishment (IRDE) in Dehradun has developed a Stabilised Electro Optical Sight (SEOS) with two-axis stabilisation and an integrated automatic video tracker facility. The indigenous SEOS has three electro-optical sensors, 3rd generation 3-5 µm (640 x 512 FPA) thermal imager (TI) with optical zoom, colour day TV with optical zoom camera and eye-safe laser range finder (ELRF). The day TV camera and TI sport a narrow field of view (NFOV) of 0.8° x 0.6° and wide field of view (WFOV) of 5° x 4° with additional 2 X electronic zoom in TI. These sensors provide a recognition range of 7 km for a NATO type of target. ELRF provides range of the target from 200 m to 9995 m with an accuracy of ± 5 m. According to DRDO, "The modular approach of this sight results into a quick customisation for different applications namely fire control solution for armoured fighting vehicles, surveillance from high speed boats and low altitude aerostat, and tracking system for a QR-SAM." The DRDO will be looking to integrate the new sight onto a slew of upcoming products.
SEOS has three electro-optical sensors:

1. Thermal imager (TI) -
  • 3rd generation 3-5 µm (640 x 512 FPA)
  • Narrow field of view (NFOV) - 0.8° x 0.6°
  • Wide field of view (WFOV) - 5° x 4°
  • 2 X electronic zoom
  • 7 km for a NATO type of target
2. Colour day TV camera -
  • Narrow field of view (NFOV) - 0.8° x 0.6°
  • Wide field of view (WFOV) - 5° x 4°
  • 7 km for a NATO type of target
3. Eye-Safe laser range finder (ELRF)
  • Range of the target - 200 m to 9995 m (± 5 m)
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Image

This is the picture given in the article. Isn't this the improved/modified (by IRDE) COAPS from Elbit Systems for Arjun Mk II manufactured by an Indian firm VEM Technologies ?
DRDO Newsletter (September 2014) had reported on "IRDE develops Stabilised Electro Optic Sight".

Image
Image
Neshant
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Neshant »

Exactly what part of the above did they develop and what part is simply imported and integrated?
Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Apart from COTS electronics, the detector array for the Thermal Imager & the CCD for the TV will be imported (there are no fabs of that scale in India yet). Rest including coolers/gimbal/mechatronics/software including image correction/autotracking/LRF etc will be locally built. Check, page 175: http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... w/1759/855
sattili
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by sattili »

^^^^
Thanks Karan for the link, that is an excellent paper.
Exactly what part of the above did they develop and what part is simply imported and integrated?
Adding to what Karan has said in his post- there are certain parts, especially detector arrays for which we don't have a matured manufacturing capability with in India. For these type of detectors we need (quoting Neelaji's post from couple of pages ago):
Gallium nitride ( GaN ) , Silicon Germanium ( Si-Ge) and Mercury-Cadmium-Telluride (Hg-Cd-Te ) are processes we need for radars and IR receivers.
Mercury Cadmium Telluride process is required to create the arrays which can detect IR spectrum (MWIR & LWIR). Hence we would rather import those parts and integrate them with our own COTS and custom electronics. The most important part would be the software algorithms that process these signals and provide useful information to the operator, would be home grown.

This is not a bad thing, to give an anecdote that a friend of mine told me: Nokia - during the days when its E series phones ruled the market, used to source phone rear camera assemblies from 14 different vendors/manufacturers. It was infact the system integration and software prowess of Nokia that ensured that end users get uniform performance from every phone in the same series, irrespective of which vendor subsystem is used in that particular phone. Same happens with automotive manufacturers for eg. all ABS controller chips gets imported and companies like Bosch help them design and integrate those sub-assemblies into the end product. As long as we have the IP and experience of integrating such subsystems and making our own product out of it, we can call it indigenous.

PS: Karanji, I just noticed that the specs listed in above posts for 3rd gen TI imager seems to be better than the ones in the paper that you posted above. Could it be that they are now using even more recent sensor? something like this (http://elbitsystems.com/Elbitmain/files/LOTUS_web.pdf)
Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Sattili ji great post, to answer your qn, that paper is from 2007. Many items have entered service therafter based on newer array tech. The big successes have been a Naval FLIR/LRF/TV with firecontrol and autotracking, IMFS for the Army infantry, section level (700 Crore order) plus holo sights for Insas, T90/T72 commanders sights. Then there are the sights for Arjun above, Nag, Nizhant and Helina. IRDE has been getting along.

IRDE has tieups with BEL, VEM and Alpha for productionizing their systems. For ground systems we seem to be mostly getting detectors from France and Israel. To add to your Nokia example, the optics in the Litening pod come from Carl Zeiss. The Israelis have their own fabs (Tower et al) but they too use COTS wherever possible to save on costs. Also helps make the case for ease of serviceability.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by srai »

sattili wrote:^^^^
...
Mercury Cadmium Telluride process is required to create the arrays which can detect IR spectrum (MWIR & LWIR). Hence we would rather import those parts and integrate them with our own COTS and custom electronics. The most important part would be the software algorithms that process these signals and provide useful information to the operator, would be home grown.

This is not a bad thing, to give an anecdote that a friend of mine told me: Nokia - during the days when its E series phones ruled the market, used to source phone rear camera assemblies from 14 different vendors/manufacturers. It was infact the system integration and software prowess of Nokia that ensured that end users get uniform performance from every phone in the same series, irrespective of which vendor subsystem is used in that particular phone. Same happens with automotive manufacturers for eg. all ABS controller chips gets imported and companies like Bosch help them design and integrate those sub-assemblies into the end product. As long as we have the IP and experience of integrating such subsystems and making our own product out of it, we can call it indigenous.
...
On a similar note, here is an example of iPhone:

Slicing an Apple
APPLE doesn't make the iPhone itself. It neither manufactures the components nor assembles them into a finished product. The components come from a variety of suppliers and the assembly is done by Foxconn, a Taiwanese firm, at its plant in Shenzhen, China. The “teardown” graphic below, based on data from iSuppli, a market-research firm, shows who makes what inside the iPhone, and how much the various bits cost. Samsung turns out to be a particularly important supplier. It provides some of the phone's most important components: the flash memory that holds the phone's apps, music and operating software; the working memory, or DRAM; and the applications processor that makes the whole thing work. Together these account for 26% of the component cost of an iPhone.

This puts Samsung in the somewhat unusual position of supplying a significant proportion of one of its main rival's products, since Samsung also makes smartphones and tablet computers of its own. Apple is one of Samsung's largest customers, and Samsung is one of Apple's biggest suppliers. This is actually part of Samsung's business model: acting as a supplier of components for others gives it the scale to produce its own products more cheaply. For its part, Apple is happy to let other firms handle component production and assembly, because that leaves it free to concentrate on its strengths: designing elegant, easy-to-use combinations of hardware, software and services.
...

Image
Neela
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Neela »

sattili wrote:^^^^
Thanks Karan for the link, that is an excellent paper.

Gallium nitride ( GaN ) , Silicon Germanium ( Si-Ge) and Mercury-Cadmium-Telluride (Hg-Cd-Te ) are processes we need for radars and IR receivers.
Mercury Cadmium Telluride process is required to create the arrays which can detect IR spectrum (MWIR & LWIR). Hence we would rather import those parts and integrate them with our own COTS and custom electronics. The most important part would be the software algorithms that process these signals and provide useful information to the operator, would be home grown.
Sattili
Please read the abstract here.
That gives a peek into the denial regimes we face. The focus , IMO, for DRDO and labs should be on the high-value IP part.
Indeed , the software algorithms , signal processing , cryogenic cooling mechanism, actuator and assembly mechanism are important. But these are not insurmountable. We have other labs like LRDE etc which can pitch in if needed for these.
But dedicated department which can master the different processes for the freq ranges mentioned here is needed
Likewise for IR spectrum.
These are military applications and self-reliance in these critical areas is our safest insurance. For our size and needs, we must go it alone.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by sattili »

^^^^
Absolutely agree with you Neelaji. There is no substitute for achieving self reliance in this very critical area/s of technology. The point I was trying to make earlier was not to discount the importance of this fact.

I was trying to explain that IRDE EO sight cannot be looked down upon (or call it "screw driver" tech) just because it uses imported detector arrays and cameras.
The focus , IMO, for DRDO and labs should be on the high-value IP part.
I believe IRDE's charter is to design and development of systems and productizing them for induction, case in point stabilized EO sight system development and partnering with private company VEM technologies to produce it in large scale.
Hisrorical Background
Instruments Research and Development Establishment (IRDE), Dehra Dun, under DRDO, is devoted to research, design, development and technology transfer in optical and electro-optical instrumentation primarily for the Defence Services. The origin of IRDE dates back to the establishment of Inspectorate of Scientific Stores in 1939 at Rawalpindi (now in Pakistan) with the responsibility to inspect the tele-communication equipment used by the Army in India. This AHSP underwent many organisational and locational changes until it took the shape of Technical Development Establishment (Instruments & Electronics) covering both R&D and AHSP functions in the fields of instruments and electronics and was located at Dehra Dun. The Establishment, during subsequent years, shed some of its R&D and AHSP responsibilities and came into existence, in its present form as IRDE on 18 February 1960.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/IRDE/Engli ... icalBG.jsp

However Solid State Physics Lab (SSPL) is the lab chartered with R&D in this field
Historical Background
Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL), one of the establishments under the Defence R&D Organization (DRDO), Ministry of Defence, was established in 1962 with the broad objective of developing an R&D base in the field of Solid State Materials, Devices and Sub-systems.The Laboratory has a vision to be the centre of excellence in the development of Solid State Materials, Devices and has a Mission to develop and characterize high purity materials and solid state devices and to enhance infrastructure, technology for meeting the futuristic challenges.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SSPL/Engli ... icalBG.jsp
Areas of Work
The major activities at sspl include development of semi-conductor materials, solid state devices, electronic components/sub-systems and investigation of solid state materials/devices. Over the years, the Laboratory has developed core competence in the following areas:-
Design & Development of
•GaAs based Microwave devices and circuits
•IR – devices
•Ferrite components
•SAW devices & sensors
•MEMs components
•Materials Development & Characterization
I found that SSPL gets the ‘CZT crystals’ from a company called Central Electronics Limited (CEL):
The R&D project for the supply of 15x15 mm ‘CZT crystals’ for 1275 nos. value `1388.00 lakhs to Solid State Physics Laboratory, Delhi has been successfully completed and the project proposal for the next phase to supply 300 nos. of 20x20mm ‘CZT crystals’ for the next three years value `1450.00 lakhs is under approval by DRDO
http://www.celindia.co.in/executed_projects.asp
Looking at the number of wafers that are being produced, I guess we are at a very nascent stage. We need to keep marching ahead to mature this tech. Until then we have to depend on foreign suppliers and should celebrate our system integration prowess only.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

I'd love it if each array and even the tiniest screw in the system was locally built..but that day is still somewhere off ..i am happy now that we have built the critical sight which is pretty much equivalent to a gunners main sight on the arjun in terms of complexity and function including the critical autotracking and high grade stabilization, which is a huge breakthrough by all standards. And best of all its modular. I was waiting for something like this for ages and its here. The next true breakthrough will be when we can make and certify high grade airborne radars, one the AWACS system in trial and the MMR in development. Third, towed array sonars. Fourth, in service proven High ERP jammers ( again systems in trial here). One by one, DRDO, industry- public and private is ticking them off. But once we have these systems in place we can continue to iteratively develop them with a nationalist govt which will fund them properly.
Last edited by Karan M on 18 Sep 2014 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

sattili wrote:^^^^
Absolutely agree with you Neelaji. There is no substitute for achieving self reliance in this very critical area/s of technology. The point I was trying to make earlier was not to discount the importance of this fact.

I was trying to explain that IRDE EO sight cannot be looked down upon (or call it "screw driver" tech) just because it uses imported detector arrays and cameras.
The focus , IMO, for DRDO and labs should be on the high-value IP part.
I believe IRDE's charter is to design and development of systems and productizing them for induction, case in point stabilized EO sight system development and partnering with private company VEM technologies to produce it in large scale.
Hisrorical Background
Instruments Research and Development Establishment (IRDE), Dehra Dun, under DRDO, is devoted to research, design, development and technology transfer in optical and electro-optical instrumentation primarily for the Defence Services. The origin of IRDE dates back to the establishment of Inspectorate of Scientific Stores in 1939 at Rawalpindi (now in Pakistan) with the responsibility to inspect the tele-communication equipment used by the Army in India. This AHSP underwent many organisational and locational changes until it took the shape of Technical Development Establishment (Instruments & Electronics) covering both R&D and AHSP functions in the fields of instruments and electronics and was located at Dehra Dun. The Establishment, during subsequent years, shed some of its R&D and AHSP responsibilities and came into existence, in its present form as IRDE on 18 February 1960.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/IRDE/Engli ... icalBG.jsp

However Solid State Physics Lab (SSPL) is the lab chartered with R&D in this field
Historical Background
Solid State Physics Laboratory (SSPL), one of the establishments under the Defence R&D Organization (DRDO), Ministry of Defence, was established in 1962 with the broad objective of developing an R&D base in the field of Solid State Materials, Devices and Sub-systems.The Laboratory has a vision to be the centre of excellence in the development of Solid State Materials, Devices and has a Mission to develop and characterize high purity materials and solid state devices and to enhance infrastructure, technology for meeting the futuristic challenges.
http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/SSPL/Engli ... icalBG.jsp
Areas of Work
The major activities at sspl include development of semi-conductor materials, solid state devices, electronic components/sub-systems and investigation of solid state materials/devices. Over the years, the Laboratory has developed core competence in the following areas:-
Design & Development of
•GaAs based Microwave devices and circuits
•IR – devices
•Ferrite components
•SAW devices & sensors
•MEMs components
•Materials Development & Characterization
I found that SSPL gets the ‘CZT crystals’ from a company called Central Electronics Limited (CEL):
The R&D project for the supply of 15x15 mm ‘CZT crystals’ for 1275 nos. value `1388.00 lakhs to Solid State Physics Laboratory, Delhi has been successfully completed and the project proposal for the next phase to supply 300 nos. of 20x20mm ‘CZT crystals’ for the next three years value `1450.00 lakhs is under approval by DRDO
http://www.celindia.co.in/executed_projects.asp
Looking at the number of wafers that are being produced, I guess we are at a very nascent stage. We need to keep marching ahead to mature this tech. Until then we have to depend on foreign suppliers and should celebrate our system integration prowess only.
CEL is a key partner in several pgms it makes the phase shifters for Rajendra as well and IIRC the company was acquired by BEL.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by pankajs »

Book published sometime in 2010

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ZrNm ... ia&f=false

MCT IR Detector Development in India
Initially, three types of detectors were planned: i) 60 element (PC) liner array, ii) 100 element PV linear array and iii) 100 x 100 pixel 2-D IR FPA for IIR guidance.

During last 2 decades, 60 element (PC) linear array has been designed ,fabricated and tested successfully at SSPL. Since 100 element linear MCT (PV) array where an offshoot of 2D FPA program, they are not discussed separately. 100 x 100 pixel 2D array have yet to be realized.
Check out the link for more details on the project and the progress.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Neela »

Karan-ji
The stabilisers can also be used in helicopters like LCH and Rudra no?
Karan M
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Karan M »

Are aap mujhe ji mat boliye...I dont deserve it. As matter of facts posts like yours and sattili's, pankajs et al are like what the forum is lucky to get from time to time, posts with interest and effort.

Anyways, you are very correct, this is a modular system which can be used for multiple platforms, as they say: ""The modular approach of this sight results into a quick customisation for different applications namely fire control solution for armoured fighting vehicles, surveillance from high speed boats and low altitude aerostat, and tracking system for a QR-SAM." - note DRDO has been very specific about the specific platforms, as usual they provide a lot of details about their intent and the system (eg see honesty about Astra ranges at altitudes). Developed on our own or with consultancy, its a huge step forward as it fills a gap in our portfolio and that's why they are happy.

IMHO, if they haven't mentioned helicopters and UAVs its because of a reason, weight+stabilization meant for different kind of platforms (software and stabilization optimized for different platform speed) and not compromising on sensors as overall platform can handle the weight.

Before this, we were importing in the interim for aerostats and the like: http://thumkar.blogspot.in/2014/06/drdo ... tical.html

I can also see this sort of system f.e. replacing the current commanders sight on Namica for instance if the weight is not an issue.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6LUmq08rcvM/T ... 00/ru5.jpg

For airborne platforms, our twin programs are the Nag FCS EO system and the Nishant system (both with their own different stabilization and gimbals). Currently, a new Gimbal Payload Assembly Mk4 is being developed for the UAV side - better stabilization and payloads than earlier, it should have FLIR/CCD/LRF and the Nag system on ALH is another item with similar intent but tied to a fire control system - IRDE had developed a system but it was limited by denial of detector arrays but now they are available, they might have a new system out. The 2007 document I linked previously should have details.

Interestingly, even the GMS sight at the BEL site for Arjun is changed and shows the Sagem-Delft GMS (a derivative of the state of the art FCS on the Leclerc) which means we are license manufacturing the item in India. This too is a big step forward

http://www.bel-india.com/Gunners-Main-S ... -MBT-Arjun
http://i.imgur.com/hCziSlK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/RwXMOl6.png

We combine the sight above with desi stabilization controller + german stab system, desi Ballistic computer and so forth.

Note difference from the original IGMS
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20 ... sSight.jpg

IGMS fell by the wayside as there was no point in qualifying our own FCS when trials were completed on the Sagem-Delft one and limited numbers ordered of Arjun meant we could not supplant one with the other. Now, DRDO/BEL seem to have struck simultaneously at both aspects - got the CPS/FCS kind of capability developed with the sight above + TOT/Mfg of the GMS itself at BEL.

Long needed steps. IRDE has also developed a form fit & drop in replacement CPS for the T-72/T-90 tanks and BMP
An exhibition of the night Vision equipments developed by DRDO and led to production by BEL, Ordinance factories and private partners was also organized. A variety of Thermal Imagers covering wide range of applications for Army, Navy & Air force. EOFCS for navy, HHTI with LRF, Commander’s TI sights for T-72, T-90 & BMP, Commander’s Panoramic sight for MBT, Holographic sight & Light-weight Laser Target Designator were the main equipment exhibited by IRDE.
http://www.pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=95061

Its all tied together. We got autotracking knowledge via the Nishant and EOFCS (Naval programs) and know we have got this new CPS with extension to FCS capability (the sight we are discussing) plus license mfg the Sagem GMS in India - again, helps with support and mfg process knowledge.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Neshant »

It feels like India is many hundreds of miles behind China and light years behind the US in terms of technological capability. We have the scientific brainpower but no technological infrastructure or local supply chain to get from A to B.

The military is supposed to stimulate the development of a local R&D base by sourcing its weapons locally. But with the constant and unending importing of foreign maal, India ends up funding the R&D base of foreign countries.

By the way I could probably build that gizmo featured above with one or two of my friends assuming I could source the laser and photodiodes. +5m accuracy is pretty poor for a LRF.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by sattili »

Let us start with the last statement
Neshant wrote: +5m accuracy is pretty poor for a LRF.
Can you please tell us what could be termed as "Good" accuracy for a LRF and for what range?
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Post by Karan M »

Given the kind of self declared..errmm.. masterminds we have here sometimes it's lucky these techno-genius warlords haven't taken over the world with all their gizmos secretly assembled in their basements. Luckily for the world, they just haven't gotten around with their friends to do all that..yet. :eek: Even the US is lucky because it too relies on these primitive..err.. FLIR/TV/LRF gimbals for its systems for its tanks etc. :cry:
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Ranjani Brow »

Neshant wrote:By the way I could probably build that gizmo featured above with one or two of my friends assuming I could source the laser and photodiodes :eek: :eek: . +5m accuracy is pretty poor for a LRF.

:lol: :lol:
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Post by Victor »

UAV Panchi Warms Up for Maiden Flight
Good to know DRDO has given IA the option of using Nishant with wheels which will reduce damage from landing by parachute and enable higher payload of fuel and weapons. However this part is puzzling:
The mission team had to deal with many challenges while rolling out Panchi and still have some critical points to clear before the first flight.

“The handling of a remotely-controlled aircraft during its takeoff and landing procedures are extremely critical exercises. We have to ensure proper alignment of the aircraft to runway in addition to designing a control system with tighter control loops for quick corrections by the onboard system. Precise control of aircraft motion is required to assist the external pilot during various stages of the flight,” explained the scientist.
UAVs like Nishant are basically large RC aircraft and these are successfully built and flown by teenagers daily in India. Any decent school and engg college will have an aeromodelling club that can do the job. Can't understand what the huge challenge is with take off and landing. Even the pakis did this 6 years ago with a Nishant look-alike called Uqab.
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Post by Indranil »

^^^ I agree that Nishant and Panchi have gone through too long a development cycle. But I don't know how many college students and enthusiasts you know who design field-deployable UAVs which weigh 400 kgs?

Let me assure you that building the airframe is the least of the problems (though I don't like the nose gear on Panchi). The hold up must be on the payload and the ATOL system. It was supposed to have colour video and integration of synthetic aperture radar (SAR).
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Post by Victor »

Indranil, no doubt making a UAV is difficult (though not impossible) for college students in India. But I'm talking about the radio control issues during takeoff, flight and landing quoted above which have nothing to do with the innards of a military UAV. If an Indian kid can guide a 5' span model on and off the ground, then DRDO should be able to do it w/o problems for a UAV is what I'm confused about.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Ramu »

This thing got a 160 km range, uses a wankel engine. How can you say its an RC plane?
We all know how long it takes to build an airworthy engine however small, don't we?
You must build one and then talk.
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Post by Indranil »

Victor wrote:Indranil, no doubt making a UAV is difficult (though not impossible) for college students in India. But I'm talking about the radio control issues during takeoff, flight and landing quoted above which have nothing to do with the innards of a military UAV. If an Indian kid can guide a 5' span model on and off the ground, then DRDO should be able to do it w/o problems for a UAV is what I'm confused about.
The UAVs that the students are flying don't need takeoff or landing aid. They are light and take off fairly quickly. The problem appears when the scale and weight of the aircraft grows. For example, Nishant used to be launched at above 144 kmph. Even though that number will come down for Panchi (with flaps and possibly a lower AUW), it will still be considerable. The take off and landing runs are quite long, and a delay between action and response in a plane for an external pilot (all cues are visual and from a distance) is extremely unnerving. Also, with these large things moving so fast and full of fuel, you can't even make mistakes (Panchi is being made to FAR 23 requirements).

That's why the scientist said that they need tighter (smaller interval) control loops for the internal aids to help the external pilot. With Panchi this aided takeoff is enough. Moving up to Rustom, they need completely automatic take off and landing for full AUW.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Indranil »

Ramu wrote:This thing got a 160 km range, uses a wankel engine. How can you say its an RC plane?
We all know how long it takes to build an airworthy engine however small, don't we?
You must build one and then talk.
It is a big deal, but not as big as we have made it to be.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by chetak »

Soldiers of misfortune
Manu Pubby
September 11, 2014

Text by Sandeep Unnithan. Graphic by Saurabh Singh





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At a national security meeting in Delhi on April 16, 2010, then-defence minister A.K. Antony assured top military commanders that budget constraints were a thing of the past. "There will never be a paucity of funds," the minister said confidently, "as far as it concerns the modernisation of the armed forces."
It was music to the ears of the officers.
The economy was on an upswing and military purchases were on track.
Barely a month before the meeting, India had signed a $760 million deal for 12 VVIP helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
Other big-ticket acquisitions were being processed.
Among them was a $4.1 billion contract for 10 strategic lift aircraft from the US-unheard of for the IAF, which had till then bought entire fleets of Russian fighter aircraft for lower.
Military planners of all three services in the room, therefore, had no reason to disbelieve their minister.
A few days later, a serving armed forces chief would remark that money was no longer a concern:
"It's a blank cheque. Funds are not an issue any longer, what matters is what we need and when we need it."
But the heady days the four-star officer was looking forward to-the creation of a modern force with enough firepower to blunt any conventional misadventure in the region-would never come.
Defence scandals surfaced in the following months, starting with the Sukna land case, and combined with a sliding economy, paralysed policy and decision-making.
With Antony willing to err on the side of caution and stall rather than risk a scandal, his ministry all but shut down for business.
The result: India's defence modernisation plans have crumbled into a mess.
The lost years
The policy paralysis has hit the armed forces the hardest, with little progress made in most of their ambitious projects and plans to modernise.

The irony is that the Indian military is the only one of its kind that is swimming against the global trend of being "lean and mean" by raising the number of troops.

Key suppliers such as Rheinmetall, Rolls-Royce and Finmeccanica were blocked from dealing with India under the 'put on hold' principle for firms suspected of corruption.

The only major defence deals sealed by the UPA government in its last years in power was a contract to equip the IAF with basic trainers and another to upgrade the Mirage 2000 fighter fleet.
As decision-making came to a standstill, thorny issues were kept pending for months before being quietly taken off the agenda, say members of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the apex body of the ministry on purchases.
Though in some cases, the laborious process of floating tenders, and evaluating and shortlisting suppliers is on, the process seems tailored to delay or stall final agreements.
The lack of drive in the defence ministry has led international companies to scale down operations in India.
Major firms such as BAE Systems are cautious about expanding in India while the likes of Textron (Bell) and Sikorsky have shifted focus to the civilian market.
Even European giant EADS, now being renamed Airbus, has downsized.
Rheinmetall has shut shop.
Months after the new Government came to power, many modernisation plans remain in disarray and funds for emergency purchases are hard to find.
The chronic 'Antony delay' in decision-making, as some in the forces call it, together with a falling rupee and rising inflation has meant that India's pending military modernisation projects are today worth more than $35 billion.
Many of these projects are stuck in their final stages, and several are not expected to make it due to the severe funds crunch the NDA Government cannot overcome in a hurry.
These range from critical artillery for the mountain strike corps coming up on the China border to aerial equipment crucial to maintain a conventional edge and undersea capabilities.
At the heart of the problem, officers and analysts say, has been the UPA government's tendency to not only stall modernisation attempts but also shrink the slice of national resources allotted to the forces.
Indian defence spending has come down to an all-time low over the past four years.
In terms of the most acknowledged global measure of spending, the amount of money India allots to defence as a percentage of GDP is at its lowest in more than four decades at 1.74 per cent.
This has steadily declined from an average 3 per cent in the 1980s.
The global average is 2.5 per cent even though there are wide variations.
NATO guidelines for its members stipulate 2 per cent of GDP for defence while China has never spent below 2 per cent of its vastly higher GDP on security.
"It is clear that current allocation is insufficient to undertake military modernisation which is necessary to meet emerging threats and challenges. Defence spending has been stagnating over the years," says defence analyst Brigadier Gurmeet Kanwal (retd).
Arming without aiming
Not only has India's defence spending fallen but another unhealthy trend that is crippling modernisation of the forces has emerged-the steady jump in revenue expenses such as paying salaries, maintaining infrastructure and filling of diesel tanks.
This head will account for more than 60 per cent of the defence budget for 2014-15.
Although the defence budget has grown by an average 12 per cent annually in the last few years, much of the increase has been gobbled by the increasing salary bill, rising fuel costs and exchange rate spikes.
Last year, the government had to transfer Rs.7,800 crore earmarked for modernisation to meet rising fuel costs. "There is a crunch that no one can deny," laments a three-star IAF officer.



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"The money we have this year for new contracts is just around Rs.2,500 crore. The rest of the capital budget is committed to tranches of payments for previous long-term acquisitions."
Those past deals include the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters, Boeing C-17 planes and C-130 transporters.
A brigadier told INDIA TODAY that the Army's budget for signing new deals is limited to just around Rs.500 crore this year, a pittance for the million-plus force.
In February this year, at a gathering of the world's top defence suppliers who had come to Delhi to showcase their products at the Defence Expo, Antony dropped a bombshell many expected.
Commenting on what has been called the biggest ever global tender- the acquisition of 126 fighter aircraft for the air force-Antony said "there is no money left for this now".
By confessing that "almost all money has been spent", he dealt a mortal blow to the Defence Expo on its first day, leaving top global defence executives wondering about the point of participating in the event.
How did India, in a short span of four years, slip from "no paucity of funds" to "all the money has been spent" without giving an exponential edge to the combat abilities of its armed forces?
Some part of the answer lies in the argument central to the book, 'Arming Without Aiming: India's Military Modernisation', by defence experts of the Brookings Institution, Stephen P. Cohen and Sunil Dasgupta.
The book argues that India lacks a security strategy and hence also a rudder for military modernisation.
[ COMMENT : read Book Review at :http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/12/b ... iming.html ]
But beyond that simple formulation, defence modernisation programmes ended up getting muddled under the UPA even when there were clear, present and immediate needs.
Indecision within the ministry, open squabbling with the finance ministry and political considerations have resulted in a 'procurement of convenience' where projects deemed to be easy to process have gone through while other, more critical requirements have been ignored.
For instance, IAF's $4.1 billion deal to buy 10 transport aircraft from the US was an easy-to-process government-togovernment deal.
The US pushed it strongly and India was willing as it was seen as uncontroversial and clean.
The only problem was that the IAF's hard-bargained funds were spent on a logistic capability instead of on acquiring firepower and bolstering the fighter squadron strength.
"Airpower is inherently an offensive force. We need to invest in firepower delivery to take the war to the enemy instead of focusing largely on what are logistic elements. The problem is that each of the three forces are deciding acquisitions on their own. There is no national defence policy and hence no coherence as to what is our intent when arming the military," says Air Marshal P.S. Ahluwalia (retd), former chief of the Western Air Command.
"Also, 80,000 new troops on the China border is strange. The revenue budget will hit the ceiling. Do the Chinese intend to capture territory here? I don't think so," Ahluwalia says, referring to the proposed mountain strike corps.
No quick fix
In one of his few media interactions after taking charge as finance and defence minister in May, a visibly exasperated Arun Jaitley remarked that it remained to be seen "how many bills are pending and how much we can do" before any action could be taken.
He, however, ruled out a quick-fix solution in the form of a jump in budgetary support.
"As the base of the economy expands, even a lesser percentage (of GDP) may increase the amount. Whatever amounts are necessary, our endeavour in due course is to make them available," Jaitley said.
The new Government is obviously being cautious as it tries to figure out the mess and move forward.
Over the last three months, new policy decisions on manufacturing, export and procurement have been notified with a view to give some direction to defence modernisation.
The central theme, officials say, is to encourage private sector participation in defence production, promote joint ventures in India with foreign collaboration, give incentives to Indian firms to lead all major procurements and reduce foreign exchange outflow.
And this is already beginning to translate into action on the ground.
At a meeting in late August, a three star air force officer met senior representatives of four top Indian defence manufacturers in his office in Vayu Bhawan.
The agenda was to push three cutting edge projects the air force has identified for private sector participation :

- the LCA MK II project to create a new version of the fighter with more thrust;

- the planned Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project to develop a new indigenous fighter aircraft;

- and the futuristic unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV).

The message was clear: identify foreign technology partners, form collaborations and come back with a viable plan and these projects could be yours, ending the tradition of involving PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in every military aviation programme.
The Army is preparing to go the Navy way-fully indigenous manufacturing with foreign assistance if needed-when it comes to purchasing new guns.
About 4,000 artillery guns are expected to be bought in the next decade.
The plan now is to ensure that all future procurements will be made only from Indian companies, many of whom have acquired technology from across the world by buying out patents and even entire production plants.
Besides policy decisions, the new regime is taking tough calls on projects stuck in the pipeline.
Last month, it cancelled the deal for 197 light choppers for the Army.
The deal was hanging for almost four years as the UPA had put it on hold following allegations of irregularities.
The cancellation has delayed the modernisation of the Army Aviation Corps, but some in the army are relieved that a decision has been taken and a new process to buy the choppers can be initiated.
The defence ministry has also approved the contract for 15 Chinook heavy lift choppers and the deal for 22 Apache attack helicopters.
As part of its focus on promoting modernisation projects that entail production and development in India, the Government has approved procurement of 118 Indian-built Arjun tanks at a cost of Rs.6,700 crore.
The Army is also set to get its first artillery systems in three decades with Jaitley clearing a Rs.900 crore project to purchase 40 Arjun 130-mm Catapult systems, mobile artillery that the Army needs badly.
Besides, the ministry has agreed to upgrade and refit six submarines at a cost of nearly Rs.5,000 crore, a move that will partly address concerns over the health of the underwater fleet.
Another major decision has been to eliminate HAL from an air force project to replace its Avro transport aircraft fleet.
The contract, likely to cost close to Rs.30,000 crore, will be handled by Indian private companies in collaboration with a foreign partner.
Although some defence analysts feel the policy of the new Government is driven largely by a consortium of Indian private sector players, the forces won't complain as long as these moves fulfil their demands.
The private sector, for one, is excited and this can create thousands of high technology jobs even though the process of shifting manufacturing to India is expected to be slow.
Fixing the Indian defence mess is not expected to be easy and the new Government will be faced with several tough calls in the months and years to come.
And until a full-time defence minister is named, the task will sit heavy on the shoulders of Jaitley, who is already burdened with the enormous responsibility of fixing the Indian economy.

Follow the writer on Twitter @manupubby
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Rs 25,000 crore Navy tender only for private sector: Defence ministry
Sep 14, 2014

NEW DELHI

Seeking to build capabilities of Indian private sector warship builders, the defence ministry has rejected the plea of a state-owned shipyard to participate in the Rs 25,000 crore project to construct four amphibious warfare vessels for the Indian Navy.

The defence ministry has decided that only private sector shipyards, including Pipavav, ABG and L and T, along with their foreign partners, would be allowed to take part in the Rs 25,000 crore project for building the four Landing Platform Docks, Navy sources said.

The Navy had issued tenders to these three private shipyards last year and decided to keep out Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL), saying it was building the 40,000-tonne Indigenous Aircraft Carrier and it should focus on that major project only for the moment.

However, CSL approached former defence minister A K Antony through the Ministry of Shipping and the deal was put on hold to consider whether the tender should be retracted or CSL could also be issued the tender and a committee under an Additional Secretary was formed to look into the matter.

The committee report was presented before the last Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) of the UPA government in February but it was decided that it would be kept on hold.

The new government decided to continue the tender in its original form and CSL will now not take part in it, the sources said, adding that the government wants to strengthen the capabilities of the private sector defence industry.

In a similar case, the defence ministry had rejected the plea of public sector firms to take part in a Rs 15,000 crore tender to build 56 transport aircraft for the air force and allowed only private players to take part in it.

Soon after taking over, Prime Minister Narendra Modi outlined his vision for the defence sector, saying that Indian industry, including both private and public sector, should build their capabilities for achieving self-reliance and also look towards exporting military hardware to friendly foreign countries.

The defence ministry has taken several steps in this direction such as scrapping of the 197 light helicopter tender under which the choppers would now be built by Indian companies only.
Victor
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Victor »

Ramu wrote:This thing got a 160 km range, uses a wankel engine. How can you say its an RC plane?
This thing is twice the size of Nishant, uses 4 jet engines and is an RC plane built by a weekend hobbyist. Nishant is an RC plane too because it is controlled by radio.

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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by shiv »

Victor wrote: However this part is puzzling:
The mission team had to deal with many challenges while rolling out Panchi and still have some critical points to clear before the first flight.

“The handling of a remotely-controlled aircraft during its takeoff and landing procedures are extremely critical exercises. We have to ensure proper alignment of the aircraft to runway in addition to designing a control system with tighter control loops for quick corrections by the onboard system. Precise control of aircraft motion is required to assist the external pilot during various stages of the flight,” explained the scientist.
UAVs like Nishant are basically large RC aircraft and these are successfully built and flown by teenagers daily in India. Any decent school and engg college will have an aeromodelling club that can do the job. Can't understand what the huge challenge is with take off and landing. Even the pakis did this 6 years ago with a Nishant look-alike called Uqab.
The Nishant, I suspect, will have to be handled by 10th std pass infantryman while it carries an expensive electro optical payload while flying in less than optimum field conditions.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Indranil »

No Victor sahab,

It is not the same. A RC of this size weighs about 70-80 kgs and stays up for about 4-10 minutes. The longest range RCs that I have heard of have a range of 30 Kms. But that is only theoretical. Most of them give a range of about 15-20 Kms because of interference with other antennas (close proximity due to limited space on an aeromodel).

By the way, somebody who builds an aeromodel like the one you have posted has decades of building experience.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Shreeman »

indranilroy wrote:No Victor sahab,

It is not the same. A RC of this size weighs about 70-80 kgs and stays up for about 4-10 minutes. The longest range RCs that I have heard of have a range of 30 Kms. But that is only theoretical. Most of them give a range of about 15-20 Kms because of interference with other antennas (close proximity due to limited space on an aeromodel).

By the way, somebody who builds an aeromodel like the one you have posted has decades of building experience.
video mit ze context -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtGDpjeDhg

endurace == fuel capacity. not as much of a problem anymore. communication range in the days of google/amazon/parrot drones == not an issue below certain altitude. payload == issue if needed by 100s kg.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by srai »

chetak wrote:Soldiers of misfortune
Manu Pubby
September 11, 2014

Text by Sandeep Unnithan. Graphic by Saurabh Singh


Image


...
With planned addition of another 90,000 soldiers (Mountain Strike Crops plus other mountain divisions/brigades), this situation is not going to improve anytime soon.
Victor
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Victor »

These RC pulsejet models look like they could be fitted with a high explosive nose. One is piloted by a 13-yr old kid.



Hobbyking pulsejet. $99.99.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by member_28108 »

Victor wrote:Indranil, no doubt making a UAV is difficult (though not impossible) for college students in India. But I'm talking about the radio control issues during takeoff, flight and landing quoted above which have nothing to do with the innards of a military UAV. If an Indian kid can guide a 5' span model on and off the ground, then DRDO should be able to do it w/o problems for a UAV is what I'm confused about.
The issue is autonomous take of landing - not radio controlled take off and landing .
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Indranil »

Victor sahab, I made fun of NAL when it "showcased" a pulsejet powered scaled Long EZ.

However, building a Panchi class UAV is a good 4-5 years of work, anywhere in the world. As I said earlier, it is not the airframe which is the challenge (though building an optimized airframe for using day in and day out for many years, under various weather conditions is in a completely different league than the models that you are posting about). Besides, the major challenge is developing the subsystems: Making sure that it is easy to launch and recover with full payload capacity, datalinks, payload systems etc.

Anyways, this is the last on this from me.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Victor »

prasannasimha wrote: The issue is autonomous take of landing - not radio controlled take off and landing .
The report I quoted says "The handling of a remotely-controlled aircraft during its takeoff and landing procedures are extremely critical exercises.......Precise control of aircraft motion is required to assist the external pilot". Fully autonomous UAV tech is quite a distance away from us.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Shreeman »

Jyorgia UAVs:
1,
2, and
the seriyus imported foren ones.

Jyprgia is tiny. Are there serious competitions like this in India?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by deejay »

Victor, Shreeman ji, et al: The UAV and an RC plane are different. In many ways but let us focus on one: Payload. A single SAR type of payload is often more expensive than the UAV. It is true for the Searcher and Heron too. Hence, the systems handling the UAV's need to be very sturdy, no hang ups and should be able to operate under not so good weather conditions.

Panchi is being readied for being operational from even semi prepared airfields. That would need a very sturdy undercarriage.

Secondly, UAV's will be Taken off and Landed by External Pilots (EP's) but in flight the EP will handover to the Internal Pilot (IP). The IP is the one in control mostly and operates the aircraft and the payload. The UAV has real time data links and requires a very robust software and hardware system along with very smooth integration. This takes a long time to develop. Because first you make the UAV similar to the RC model and then develop the system with it. If it was just a remote controlled flying machine, then their are a few companies in Chandigarh which sell the half-scale fly worthy models to the IAF for EP training.

The EP training is a long and complicated process for UAV's, specially for the ones which will carry costly payloads. Small, battlefield UAVs are different from the Panchi types. Panchi types, will generally have a proper pilot trained for EP role. And it is a long training.
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Shreeman »

deejay wrote:Victor, Shreeman ji, et al: The UAV and an RC plane are different. In many ways but let us focus on one: Payload. A single SAR type of payload is often more expensive than the UAV. It is true for the Searcher and Heron too. Hence, the systems handling the UAV's need to be very sturdy, no hang ups and should be able to operate under not so good weather conditions.

Panchi is being readied for being operational from even semi prepared airfields. That would need a very sturdy undercarriage.

Secondly, UAV's will be Taken off and Landed by External Pilots (EP's) but in flight the EP will handover to the Internal Pilot (IP). The IP is the one in control mostly and operates the aircraft and the payload. The UAV has real time data links and requires a very robust software and hardware system along with very smooth integration. This takes a long time to develop. Because first you make the UAV similar to the RC model and then develop the system with it. If it was just a remote controlled flying machine, then their are a few companies in Chandigarh which sell the half-scale fly worthy models to the IAF for EP training.

The EP training is a long and complicated process for UAV's, specially for the ones which will carry costly payloads. Small, battlefield UAVs are different from the Panchi types. Panchi types, will generally have a proper pilot trained for EP role. And it is a long training.
Helpful. Gracias. This, however, is a UAV droneb(heeehee) courtesy of the tarmak plog:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5qkRmtL5XMA/V ... BDAWON.jpg

There is a lot of droning in that plog over the past two weeks. Why have they assembled only 4 nishants? and how much of the story of the pictured drone demoware vs reality?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Indranil »

Shreeman wrote:
indranilroy wrote:No Victor sahab,

It is not the same. A RC of this size weighs about 70-80 kgs and stays up for about 4-10 minutes. The longest range RCs that I have heard of have a range of 30 Kms. But that is only theoretical. Most of them give a range of about 15-20 Kms because of interference with other antennas (close proximity due to limited space on an aeromodel).

By the way, somebody who builds an aeromodel like the one you have posted has decades of building experience.
video mit ze context -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvtGDpjeDhg

endurace == fuel capacity. not as much of a problem anymore. communication range in the days of google/amazon/parrot drones == not an issue below certain altitude. payload == issue if needed by 100s kg.
Why does it take countries with decades of drone building experience and thousands of enthusiasts, 2-3 years to develop, and 1 year to test a 2 kg drone with 1 hour endurance and a 10 km range? The Indian private companies are taking even more time. But, I (an amateur among enthusiasts) build models that size in about 10 man-hours alone! If I feel lazy, I can buy those for less than 200 dollars online. It takes less than 5 flights of 5 mins each to get the perfect settings for trim etc. Wonder what takes so much time for the experts!!!

Your points at best show your ignorance and at worst shows your willful trivialization of a military UAV of the class of Panchee to stuff from college students who, by the way, are led by experts.

The airframe of a military UAV is highly optimized, extremely rugged, built to exacting international safety standards, and need to be certified by agencies. This is the study for the landing gear of Panchee:
Design and Analysis of Composite Landing Gear for UAV

Now, let me answer your points from the post:
1. Fuel capacity is not the only parameter of endurance. Each payload subsystem has its endurance specs, e.g. continuous exposure to range of temperature, moisture (especially for the optics), vibration, etc. The engine will have its continuous running limits, engine oil, hydraulic fluids, electric systems .... By the way, not many countries have the ability to put a SAR payload on their UAVs. Panchee will have it.
2. Range of communication also depends on required bandwidth and quality of service. We are communicating to Mars, aren't we? Google and Amazon drones don't need flight critical and mission-critical communications. It is worth 50 dollars of circuitry to put gyro-stabilization and another 100 dollars to put gps-based-way-point-navigation. However, if you want to have real-time streaming of video through direct link to the air vehicle at over 100 kms it is a different matter altogether. I know of commercial systems which can theoretically stream GoPro video up to 30 kms, but that is the best that is out there. And here, you not only need to get the video feed back, but you need to implement tracking commands, all these in a confined environment of powerful antennas for military reconnaissance and surveillance. FYI leave aside enthusiasts, very few countries have live colour video streaming capabilities at 160 kms.
3. I have no idea what you mean by payload is a problem if it is 100s of kgs!
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by NRao »

Not sure, but I very much doubt these guys who post about model air crafts Being that easy, have even touched one.

Unless you have landed one on the roof of your neighbors, you have not tried it.

:mrgreen:
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Shreeman »

^^^ always happy to admit ignorance upfront, even wilful. No one is an expert in everything, and little point in posting a question if one isnt.

But that is besides the point. The google UAVs (yes, they appear to be scalable and mission capable) are limited to a certain weight. It becomes a materials and engine technology question very fast as payload rises into 10s kgs and more. Or so it appears. So does the tarmak contraption.

However, laying the blame at the messanger does not beget you any prizes. This line of questioning started with how can you imporove the research/development/education.

Unfortunately the indefensible state of the UAV production (you can substitute your favorite aviation sub-speciality) means all you recieve from the so-called experts here are bolded phrases calling the motivation of the question itself into question.

I do not know. But that was never in doubt, was it? Broad generalizations of "very few countries" and "tight control loops" and so on do nothing but intimidate the ignoirant poster. I can certainly see this stonewalling being worthwhile if someone's job was on the line. That is not the case, as far as I can tell. So why the insecurity?

The problem was automatic take-off and landing, was it not? If Rustom-I can serve as a platform to test Rustom-Ii which is several times larger, what fundamental problem prevents testing of indoividual tools like automatic take-off and landing with simpler system?That never even entered the thought process, did it?

This "territorial prpotection" of internet excpert status begets no one any knowledge, how am I smarter by reading your brilliance?
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Re: India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

Post by Indranil »

I am not sure whether you were questioning or ridiculing. Nobody holds up an amateur enthusiasts' work in the face of many man-years of work and then say, 'but, I am just trying to learn'!
Shreeman wrote: I can certainly see this stonewalling being worthwhile if someone's job was on the line. That is not the case, as far as I can tell. So why the insecurity?
By the same token, why do you feel stonewalled if your comments are scrutinized. Certainly, your job is not at risk?
Shreeman wrote:
The problem was automatic take-off and landing, was it not? If Rustom-I can serve as a platform to test Rustom-Ii which is several times larger, what fundamental problem prevents testing of indoividual tools like automatic take-off and landing with simpler system?That never even entered the thought process, did it?
What else are they doing with Rustom-1? (Click). Because a much smaller UAV does not need assisted take off and landing! With Panchee, they are developing assisted take-off-and-landing. With Rustom-1, they are developing full automatic takeoff and landing. If this is not step-by-step progress, then I don't know what is!

You could question how much time, each step is taking for a program of national importance, and I will stand with you on that. But if you trivialize these steps to model building and say enthusiasts could have done better, then I will have no problems ridiculing such comments. And please don't complain if your mere comments are questioned. Because you are questioning other people's work!
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