Indian Military Helicopters

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 15 Mar 2016 19:34

Khalsa wrote:
where is that view from ?
I don't think its from the 360 EO all seeing eye.

and what are those three wires doing in there ?

Probably a cam fitted inside the forward flightdeck, close to the windscreen. There used to be a yellow contraption fitted just above the EO ball. Not sure if TD-3 still has it. Those wires are to hold the dedicated pitot tube in position.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 16 Mar 2016 22:57

rohitvats wrote:I don't know why we're fixated with this slithering bit. When fact of the matter is that your standard infantry battalion is not trained for this operation.

That's not true. I've seen regular infantry practice slithering from Mi-8s.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Mar 2016 02:56

Viv S wrote:...
Don't see how the Russians would be able to negotiate a local production agreement for a French engine. Broker perhaps, but not negotiate. As I recall, one of the main hurdles to the 'Make-in-India' aspect was that only 30% of the aircraft was of Russia-origin, requiring India to independently work with the subcontractors to the program.

The way it has been done the past is through consortiums/JVs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEPECAT_Jaguar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDA

The Russians have to show that they can pull a JV together which then is the sole GoI facing entity. The liability of the various partners is limited to their stake. The amount of paid in capital supports their claims about performance/delivery.

Alternatively, they can have their banks issue standby LCs to support their obligations. If the Russians cannot pull a JV together they are not serious contenders.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Mar 2016 08:37

anjan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:I don't know why we're fixated with this slithering bit. When fact of the matter is that your standard infantry battalion is not trained for this operation.
That's not true. I've seen regular infantry practice slithering from Mi-8s.

Training of infantry for slithering ops or even working with Mi-8/17 units is a specialized exercise which few do. It is not a mass thing for a simple reason that most of the IA is not exposed to such ops.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Mar 2016 09:24

rohitvats wrote:
anjan wrote:...

Training of infantry for slithering ops or even working with Mi-8/17 units is a specialized exercise which few do. It is not a mass thing for a simple reason that most of the IA is not exposed to such ops.

RV, I have participated in slithering training of infantry troops on multiple occasions. You are right that slithering is for specialised troops but we do train normal infantry too.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Mar 2016 09:26

srai wrote:

Rocket motor seems to be this:
Code: Select all
Features

    WA (Wrap Around)
    Total impulse: 680daN.s
    Range (ground-to-ground): ~9100m
    Propellant grain: star-shaped centre hole extruded double base
    Length: 1060 mm
    Mass: 6.3kg
    Warhead interface : 2.400 " -6-29° STUB ACME 3G, fully compatible with all the 2.75 inch rocket warheads
    Smokeless, non-corrosive
Couldn't HAL work with L&T to at least get local rocket pods?

Warhead seems to be this one:
Code: Select all
Features

    Total mass: 4.3kg
    No pyrotechnic components
    For training purposes
    Same mass and ballistic as FZ71-FZ319-FZ181
FZ: LCH (Light Combat Helicopter)
FZ: ALH (Advance Light Helicopter)

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 18 Mar 2016 09:42

rohitvats wrote:Training of infantry for slithering ops or even working with Mi-8/17 units is a specialized exercise which few do. It is not a mass thing for a simple reason that most of the IA is not exposed to such ops.

Regular units practice. Same as regular infantry in India will also do mine clearing(an engg. task) and units train for that as well. Actually most of the tasks that this forum deems the purview of SF gets done by regular infantry in India; regularly. I find it insulting given I hear about their exploits but I've given up my crusade to keep correcting the record. With this one lapse.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Mar 2016 11:25

SF is anyhow used as elite infantry by India. Shock assaulters to use US parlance. But they are far ahead in terms of using SF for cross border covert ops and intel.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 18 Mar 2016 11:49

wires, 3 wires, wire coiled in the tube? rocket each from either side? questions, questions.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 18 Mar 2016 23:45

Karan M wrote:SF is anyhow used as elite infantry by India. Shock assaulters to use US parlance. But they are far ahead in terms of using SF for cross border covert ops and intel.

I don't think anyone has shock troopers anymore. US special forces type operations takes a lot of support equipment and firepower on call. If you read about the Bin Laden raid(as an example where that firepower may not be available) you see how worried they were about contact with regular Pakistani troops. Without a large volume of firepower on call, regular troops would have prevailed.

We don't have that kind of ability to project force far away from the border and we don't use our troops in those roles. Our SF currently operates as regular infantry for the same reason that Armour, Engg, and other arms troops are sitting in J&K. Our current continuing pattern of High Altitude deployment and CI place(d) an unequal burden on the Infantry alone. This is meant to spread the effort across the board.

Separately, past the hype I don't know if there is a tallying of what their SOCOM has actually achieved for the investment.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Mar 2016 01:09

When i say shock assaulters, i mean their regular assaulters in SF GB/DevGru/Delta etc.
No easy day has a good overview of DevGru training.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Mar 2016 01:11

Basically, they do above+ more exotic embedded ops/LRPPs/counter intel . We do the former, not so much the latter - GOI handcuffs it seems..we'll never have 9SF ops with RAW guys in dubai running some op etc.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Mar 2016 12:13

A screenshot of LCH firing Rockets at Iron Fist 2016 from my twitter page @kakarat2001

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Mar 2016 15:30

GIF of LCH firing rockets at Iron Fist 2016 from my twitter page

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 0981724162

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 21 Mar 2016 22:06

Another tender is out from HAL for HTSE - 1200 kw Engine

THERMAL BARRIER COATING FOR HP TURBINE BLADE

- HP section of the TurboShaft core is 1500 K ( 1226.85 Celsius)
- Single Crystal blades
- Alloy used is CMSX4

Details and cross sections here: http://www.hal-india.com/Common/Uploads ... 541010.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2016 14:30

India, Russia to conclude Kamov, Mi-17 helicopter deals by year end

Recently there was a big delegation from Russian Helicopters and Rostec in India for technical discussions on how to implement the agreement and modalities of the joint production.

“The delegation signed a protocol fixing the timelines… the final agreement is expected by year end,” Viktor Kladov, Head International Cooperation of Rostec told The Hindu in a telephonic conversation.

Russia has already selected Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as the Indian partner for the deal. HAL has begun constructing a new helicopter manufacturing facility which will cater to the utility helicopters.

Stating that India is good at composite materials, electronics and avionics among others, Mr. Kladov said “the extent of localisation is being discussed.”

“The Inter-Governmental Agreement on manufacture of Kamov 226 helicopter in India is the first project for a major defence platform under the Make in India mission,” Mr. Modi had said during his visit.

The Kamovs will replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak helicopters which have been in service with the military for several decades. Over 400 of these helicopters are in service in India.

While the agreement states that a minimum of 200 helicopters will be produced the number is expected to go up significantly given the large requirement. Mr. Kladov said the first 40 will be assembled in Russia for faster deliveries and the rest will be done in India.

On the deal for 48 additional Mi-17 V5 medium life helicopters Mr. Kladov said the “commercial technical offer has already been submitted” to the Indian side and a contract could be concluded by middle of this year.

The government has already approved the purchase of 48 more Mi-17 medium lift helicopters. An earlier contract for 151 Mi-17 helicopters signed in phases has been recently concluded.

In a bid to maintain its hold on the Indian helicopter market Rostec has offered to set a local service centre for Mi-17’s to ensure comprehensive life support and spares availability along with local production of certain components, Mr. Kladov added.

In the recent past several Russian companies have announced local support centres to improve the serviceability of equipment, one of the major complaints from the India with Russian equipment.

Defence Expo

In a bid to maintain its lead in the India defence market, Russia is sending the “biggest ever delegation”, comprising 60 major companies and over 500 members, to the defence expo beginning in Goa from 28 March.

While over 800 products will be on display, the focus is on armour and air defence systems. “We will put all stress on the ground equipment and air defences including an offer for deep modernisation of T-72 tanks which are in large numbers with the Indian Army,” Mr. Kladov stated.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Mar 2016 15:23

^^^

One big opportunity missed was local production of Mi-17 with ToT. 200 helos are (or have been) acquired over the last decade or so.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Mar 2016 15:33

Incidentally military is drafting the requirements or GSQR for Indian Medium Helicopter since 2009.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 28 Mar 2016 01:40

srai wrote:^^^

One big opportunity missed was local production of Mi-17 with ToT. 200 helos are (or have been) acquired over the last decade or so.

Had IAF created a MMRCA style requirement for medium helo .... you know what would have happened. This is how work gets done in India. Buy in small quantities over years ... tax payer ROI be damned.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 29 Mar 2016 18:22

1st India-built Apache Fuselage Rolls Out In 2018 - LIVEFIST

The first Indian-built AH-64E Apache fuselage, built in Hyderabad by the Boeing-Tata Advanced Systems Ltd joint venture, will be rolled out in 2018, with the first chopper to be delivered to the Indian Air Force in 2019.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2016 18:28

Kakarat wrote:1st India-built Apache Fuselage Rolls Out In 2018 - LIVEFIST

The first Indian-built AH-64E Apache fuselage, built in Hyderabad by the Boeing-Tata Advanced Systems Ltd joint venture, will be rolled out in 2018, with the first chopper to be delivered to the Indian Air Force in 2019.

Magic number again: around 36-months from confirmed order (of an agreed spec) to delivery.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 29 Mar 2016 21:29

Wait, What? When did the Ah-64E deal get signed?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 29 Mar 2016 21:31

I would prefer to see LCH first squadron being raised before that. Is there a name for it? Like Rudra

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 30 Mar 2016 08:34

@Cybaru

Sep 2015

India inks $3.1 billion deals for Apache and Chinook helicopters

India on Monday inked the $3.1 billion contracts for 22 Apache and 15 Chinook helicopters

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Mar 2016 09:41

the "luh" hepter,, will it ever fly?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Mar 2016 20:25

When did the fourth LCH prototype start flying?

HAL's LCH fires 70-mm rockets successfully

There are four LCH prototypes in operation now and HAL hopes to leverage from the ALH production experience, once the LCH series production begins.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 30 Mar 2016 20:45

indranilroy wrote:When did the fourth LCH prototype start flying?

HAL's LCH fires 70-mm rockets successfully
There are four LCH prototypes in operation now and HAL hopes to leverage from the ALH production experience, once the LCH series production begins.

I am not sure Indranil but I was told that it flew before the 75th Year celebrations of HAL.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Mar 2016 21:27

Oh! This is good news, indeed.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 30 Mar 2016 22:26

indranilroy wrote:When did the fourth LCH prototype start flying?

HAL's LCH fires 70-mm rockets successfully
There are four LCH prototypes in operation now and HAL hopes to leverage from the ALH production experience, once the LCH series production begins.

Official Press Release
Indigenous LCH Fires Rockets; Will Participate in `Iron Fist’ Exercise-2016

The first prototype helicopter had its inaugural flight on Mar 23, 2010. The second and third prototype had their first flight on June 28, 2011 and Nov 12, 2014. LCH TD4 completed its maiden flight on December 1, 2015. LCH has completed performance trials paving way for certification of basic configuration and a letter to this effect was handed over to HAL by CEMILAC in the presence of Defence Minister on Oct 16, 2015.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 31 Mar 2016 13:07

Kakarat wrote:1st India-built Apache Fuselage Rolls Out In 2018 - LIVEFIST

The first Indian-built AH-64E Apache fuselage, built in Hyderabad by the Boeing-Tata Advanced Systems Ltd joint venture, will be rolled out in 2018, with the first chopper to be delivered to the Indian Air Force in 2019.

So even with 22 Apaches it is more Indian then Mi-8/17 series with 500 buys?

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Apr 2016 15:29

Neela wrote:Another tender is out from HAL for HTSE - 1200 kw Engine

THERMAL BARRIER COATING FOR HP TURBINE BLADE

- HP section of the TurboShaft core is 1500 K ( 1226.85 Celsius)
- Single Crystal blades
- Alloy used is CMSX4

Details and cross sections here: http://www.hal-india.com/Common/Uploads ... 541010.pdf

Linking two articles here.
The above tender from HAL mentions CMSX4 as material for SC blades of HP Turbine section.

This link below from DMRL in an investment casting seminar mentions (in page 5, Fig 4) that CMSX4 can withstand 1150 C .
CMSX4 seems to be 1985-1990s vintage.
But HAL 's HTSE Tender specifies 1226 C as temperature of HP section. So it appears to be a improved version of CMSX4 - (~1995-2000 vintage. )

( Also, SX seems to be industry standard naming convention of Single Crystal blades)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Apr 2016 12:23

looks like we are buying President-S DIRCM for our choppers

President-S DIRCM : https://russianmilitaryphotos.wordpress ... res-suite/
OEM info but in Russian: http://niiekran.ru/prod_president.php

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160406/1403353967.html

KAZAN, Apr 6 -. RIA Novosti Russia will supply the latest on-board systems to protect aircraft "President-C" not only in Egypt but also in Algeria, India and Belarus, told reporters on Wednesday the general director of Concern "Radio-electronic technology" (Developer complexes) Nikolai Kolesov .

"The president-C" is designed for individual protection of military and civilian aircraft and helicopters from hitting aircraft and anti-aircraft missile systems and anti-aircraft artillery of enemy air defense systems onshore and offshore.

"We supply the" President-C "not only in Egypt We have contracts with India, Algeria, Belarus This long-term agreement, part of the complex will be delivered later this year, part of the -.. In 2017 and 2018," - Kolesov said, without specifying the details of the other arrangements.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 07 Apr 2016 07:50

Austin wrote:looks like we are buying President-S DIRCM for our choppers

12 of them for VIP Mi 8/17

arun · Post by **arun** » 09 Apr 2016 08:30

Confirmation that kickbacks were paid to Indian’s for the cancelled purchase contract for VVIP AW 101 Helicopters during Nehru-Gandhi family dynasty led Congress Party rule.

Italian Appeal Court Sentences former Finmeccanica CEO to 4½ Years in Prison “plan to pay tens of millions of dollars to Indian officials to win a €560 million contract to sell 12 helicopters to the Indian government”:

Appeals Court Sentences Former Finmeccanica CEO to 4½ Years in Prison

MILAN—An appeals court Thursday overturned a previous ruling and sentenced Giuseppe Orsi, the former chief executive of Italian defense firm Finmeccanica, to 4½ years in prison for international corruption.

Italian prosecutors say Mr. Orsi, who at the time of the alleged corruption in 2010 was CEO of Finmeccanica unit AgustaWestland, directed a plan to pay tens of millions of dollars to Indian officials to win a €560 million contract to sell 12 helicopters to the Indian government. ……………………

The court also overturned a previous not-guilty corruption verdict for Bruno Spagnolini, who followed Mr. Orsi as CEO of AgustaWestland. He too had previously been found guilty of falsifying invoices. ………………………….

With the benefit of hindsight the press release put out by our Ministry of Defense back in 2013 defending the AW 101 Helicopter purchase deal, was not the smartest thing to do:

Acquisition of AW-101 Choppers for IAF: The Facts

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 09 Apr 2016 13:00

^

This is excellent news. Tells us that if we pursue corruption cases foreign courts will act against their own.

Best solution to VVIP choppers. Don't have them. Let these so called VIPs travel in Dhruvs or MI 17s. Whys watse so many choppers on them ?

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 09 Apr 2016 17:06

^^
Saar, IIRC the investigation was instigated by Italian authorities. We had our thumbs up our a--holes.
Arnab Goingsomewhere broke the news on national TV and then the sarkaar woke up and directed the CBI to investigate.
But those birds were real eye candies.
Especially in the Tipnis Grey of the VayuSena.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 09 Apr 2016 17:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:^
Best solution to VVIP choppers. Don't have them. Let these so called VIPs travel in Dhruvs or MI 17s.

This is what seems to be happening. IAF has converted a bunch of Mi-17s in to VVIP carriers...have custom interiors fitted & all. It seems like India is purchasing President-S chopper defensive suite from Russia for VVIP choppers. Ultimately may not have the luxury & defensive levels like Augusta but should be acceptable against most threat perceptions.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Apr 2016 18:38

Zynda wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:^
Best solution to VVIP choppers. Don't have them. Let these so called VIPs travel in Dhruvs or MI 17s.
This is what seems to be happening. IAF has converted a bunch of Mi-17s in to VVIP carriers...have custom interiors fitted & all. It seems like India is purchasing President-S chopper defensive suite from Russia for VVIP choppers. Ultimately may not have the luxury & defensive levels like Augusta but should be acceptable against most threat perceptions.

This was always the case. Mi 8s were the VVIP chppers for long. Probably Mi 17s now.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Apr 2016 06:07

Another picture of the small bird

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Apr 2016 08:48

Now Indian Medium Helos remains. Hopefully, it will be ready in another 15-years--in-time for Mi-17 replacement.