Indian Military Helicopters

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 May 2015 09:06

It is Manu Pubby, so I can't assign much weight to the report. But if he is right, it is laughable. If Tatas got it, I would have understood. What is Sun group's credentials in building helicopters?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 May 2015 21:30

indranilroy wrote:It is Manu Pubby, so I can't assign much weight to the report. But if he is right, it is laughable. If Tatas got it, I would have understood. What is Sun group's credentials in building helicopters?

The same Sun Group of the infamous Marans?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 May 2015 02:07

No, but not much better.

http://www.sungroup-global.com/english/ ... glance.asp

It will be ultimate screwdrivergiri if India goes for this. It is BEML Tatra in the making.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 16 May 2015 02:45

Manu Pabby is a kamchor and has lifted the entire article from Russian Insider. He has no original content in his news report. He doesn't know the meaning of Plagiarism.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 16 May 2015 06:34

From what I see on the Sun Group website, they are ...a leading principal investor and private equity fund manager in Russia, India and other emerging and transforming markets. The founding shareholders of SUN are part of an Indian family group that has been active in India for more than 100 years and first started working with Russia in 1958.

The Group has been active in areas such as Aerospace, Oil & Gas, Mining, Real Estate, Infrastructure, Food & Beverage, Technology, Aerospace & Defence and Renewable Energy.
....
As a leading investor in Russia, India and other emerging and transforming markets, SUN Group deploys capital through two fundamental investment platforms and across its core sectors.

What I believe is that they're leveraging the Russian connection as well as their deep pockets to create the opportunity, but will involve another entity with technology and implementation competence to actually build the product. These guys are a profit making private group, and are not likely to jeopardize their investments and relationships by doing anything stupid or cutting corners. Given their financial resources, they might even fund a group of breakaway engineers from HAL's successful helicopter division to set up an Indian manufacturing unit.

As a FYI, back in the eighties when Reliance was just entering the petrochemicals business and ranked very low in the talent scales, they quickly developed a formidable core of technical expertise by mercilessly raiding the PSUs, which had an enviable and deep pool of underutilized and frustrated technical talent. They picked up experienced people from IPCL, IOC, BP, HP, EIL and all the other alphabetized PSUs, made them senior managers at high salaries and reaped the benefits. Mr. Khemka might just be planning a similar strategy in the aviation business

Just my 2c...

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 16 May 2015 08:25

I think the SUN group will end up funding the Russian part of the equity in the joint venture. They will have to rope in an Indian partner with experience, most likely HAL, to build and run the plant. If HAL agrees to manage but does not want to invest the money, the Khemkas can probably pony up the money for the Indian half of the equity too. That way the Indian taxpayers only pay for the final product.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2015 09:11

We will need to make every screw of the kamov. I forsee Russian ecosystem of parts drying up
Swiftly after money is paid. So hal and outside experts need to vet the tot carefully.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 May 2015 10:13

What's the MoD's justification for the Ka-226 purchase? We still have the 'Make-in-India' program with Bell, Eurocopter, Kamov and HAL. Why go outside that?

T-90 redux

1. Bought without any competition, despite the availability of (better performing) alternatives.
2. By the time local production begins, the ~~Arjun~~ LUH will be entering service.
3. Barely operational in its home market. Only 22 Ka-226s in service acc. Wikipedia. Support is bound to be a nightmare. (The corresponding figure for the Eurocopter & Bell 407 is in high triple digits.)

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 May 2015 12:00

Well Ka-226T if it happens does not sound like a bad deal at all.

With India requirement of LUH type to be around 600+ There is enough space for HAL LUH when it comes up.

Turbomeca is the common engine manufacturer for ALH, LCH, LUH and KA-226T

a very conservative numbers if we put over the lifecycle of these machines we will require:

ALH = 300 to be in service over time = 600 engines for production only and 1 as spare =900
LCH = 150 to be in service over time = 300 engines for production only and 1 as spare =450
Ka-226T = 300 to be in service over time = 600 engines for production only and 1 as spare =900
LUH = 300 to be in service over time = 300 engines for production only and 1 as spare = 450

almost 2700 engines needed, Turbomeca should be setting up a manufacturing line in INDIA i hope.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 16 May 2015 12:09

25% spare engine is the norm in case of Helicopters not 50%. It costs money.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 16 May 2015 13:12

How ka-226 is a light helicopter if it is using 2 engines? What the hell our MoD as well as services are thinking, when recommending foreign products?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 May 2015 13:42

There was a competition with the Fennec.Both passed the trials.The Sergei uses French engines and is more versatile thanks to its specialized pods.
The helo has been in production for over a decade . Looking at the specs,with a passr. capacity of 9 apart from the 2-man crew,it accommodates more (4) than a Chetak/Cheetah/All-3 variant despite its size. Having a co-axial rotor,its length is only 8.1M still 2M less than a Chetak/All-3! Being such a small helo,one wonders how much can be improved,composites,etc.that will make a substantial diff. apart from a more powerful engine.

Fennec specs/comparison: Length,almost 11M (3M more than the Sergei),service ceiling 5280m compared to 6200m for the Sergei,cargo only 1000kg as 1500kg for the Sergei,and carries only 4 passr compared to 9,Sergei and has only one engine. Price,Fennec $4-5M compared to just Sergei $2.5-$2.9M That is quite a substantial saving,almost half the price.

The Editor rating of the Fennec is 6.5 compared with 7.0 for the Sergei in the link below.
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopt ... Sergei/274

It would be very interesting to see however whether a naval variant can be developed that could operate from the decks of smaller warships ,perhaps even the planned "shallow water ASW corvettes" if they like the PLAN ASW corvettes,have an open flight deck.
The Sergei could perhaps carry a light-weight dunking sonar similar/smaller to that on the KA-28s and/or LWTs like the A-244S,MK-54s,etc. A specialized ASW pod could be designed which will accommodate two specialsed ASW operators and upto 2 LWTs/DCs/SR ASMs.The IN should take a good look at it for both its utility and ASW requirements. IAF/IN needs could drive up the number to another 100-200.

Civil markets could also be high given the demand for passr./ambulance versions,oil industry,tourism,etc. A good export potential too since we have exported Chetaks to friendly nations before and it comes at low cost.

Xcpts,Wik.

Certification to Russian AP-29 "A" and "B" transport categories was granted on 31 October 2003.
In December 2014 it was reported that India is in agreement with the Russian Federation will produce on its territory Mi-17 and Ka-226T.
India cleared building of 200 Kamov Ka-226T helicopters under the ‘Make in India’ initiative.[3]

Design

The design is a refinement of the proven Ka-26, featuring interchangeable mission pods. The aircraft is fitted with a new rotor system, increased visibility nose, and new passenger cabin design. The Ka-226 also features a new transmission system and is made largely from composite materials.

The aircraft is fitted with trademark Kamov coaxial rotors, of advanced composite design, making the Ka-226 highly maneouverable and eliminating the need for a tail rotor.

Variants.
Ka-226 ambulance module
Search and rescue, medivac, disaster relief and patrol variants have been developed for the Russian Emergency Ministry. Air ambulance, police and fire fighting variants have been developed for the Russian government.
Ka-226
Utility helicopter.Ka-226AG
Gazprom specific variant.Ka-226T
Instead of Rolls-Royce 250C engines, this variant is fitted with the more powerful Turbomeca Arrius 2G1. Each engine provides 670 shp, increasing the service ceiling to around 7000m, providing improved high altitude and high temperature operation.[4] Helicopter has new avionics with multifunctional displays, automatic control system, navigation system, radar. It can be equipped with hoist system, helicopter sling, searchlight, additional external fuel tank. For search and rescue missions helicopter can be equipped with medical module.Ka-226TG
Gazprom specific variant based on Ka-226T model.

Gazpromavia Ka-226AG at MAKS 2007 RussiaRussian Air Force[5]
India Indian Army - 200 to be made in India under the Make in India initiative.[6]

Specs:

General characteristics
Crew: 2
Passengers: 9
Cargo: 1,400kg internally, or 1,500kg on an external sling
Length: 8.1 m (25 ft 7 in)
Main rotor diameter: 2× 13 m (42 ft 8 in)
Height: 4.15 m (13 ft 7 in)
Gross weight: 3400 kg (7496 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Arrius 2G1, 335 kW (450 hp) each

Performance
Maximum speed: 205 km/h (127 mph)
Cruising speed: 195 km/h (121 mph)
Range: 600 km (372 miles)
Service ceiling: 6200 m (20300 ft)
Hover ceiling: 2500 m (8200 ft)

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 16 May 2015 14:40

Philip Sir, exactly my point .... let me repeat my question ... how the hell it is light helicopter if it is using two engines? It is costly to maintain, service, fuel and crew.

2 engine vs 1 engine
2 crew vs 1 crew

Do we really need 1500kg of load for its envisioned role?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2015 16:22

imo even from a open flight deck and no hangar from submarine chasers its best to operate a full feature NH90 helo flying in from land if we can afford it.

being targeted with impunity by a spread of heavy torps has got to be the scariest thing for a ship.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 May 2015 17:13

@ RKumar

Chetak Characteristics from wiki:

Crew: 2
Capacity: 5 passengers
Length: 10.03 m (32 ft 10¾ in)
Main rotor diameter: 11.02 m (36 ft 1¾ in)
Height: 3.00 m (9 ft 10 in)

I believe even the RFP for Light helicopter did not have definition in terms of :

2 engine vs 1 engine
2 crew vs 1 crew

Cheetah is 1 crew and Chetak is 2 crew.

I think (i am not sure) the definition of LUH is 3 Ton weight category helicopter as per HAL LUH/LOH

same way ALH is defined as 5ton weight category helicopter

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 May 2015 17:32

@ Philip

there is difference between wiki specs and manufacturer site: http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/en/h ... tures.html

Aircrew - 1–2
Passengers - 7

GT engines (2хArrius 2G1, Turbomeca)
Take-off power - 705 h. p.
Contingency power - 580 h. p.

Performance
Max. speed - 250 km/h
Cruise speed - 220 km/h
Max. flight range with main fuel tanks - 600 km
Operational ceiling - 5,700 m
Hover ceiling (OGE) - 4,100 m

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 16 May 2015 17:40

Russia and India may produce 400 Ka-226T helicopters

The Ka-226T ‘Kamov’ helicopters could soon be manufactured in India through a joint-venture enterprise owned by Rosoboronexport, Russian Helicopters, and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), RIR learned from an Indian military source, who wished to remain anonymous.

“We are talking here about the production of at least 400 helicopters over the next 10 years, including some for export to third countries,” he said.

The source declined to specify the cost per manufactured aircraft, saying “this will be determined when the final agreement is reached”.
пустым не оставлять!!

According to the PTI News Agency, the Indian government’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) gave an initial clearance for around 200 helicopters, and state-run HAL is a "front-runner" for partnering with Russia.

"HAL is the front-runner as of now. Talks would be held now to finalize the contract and work out the modalities," the military source said.

The light multipurpose Ka-226T helicopter is equipped with two Arrius 2G1 engines made by the Turbomeca Company. The passenger version of this aircraft can carry up to seven people, while the transport version can carry one ton of cargo inside the fuselage or via an external sling. For transportation of oversized cargo, a high-capacity cargo platform can be installed instead of the regular transport cabin. This aircraft is scheduled to replace the Cheetah and Chetak helicopters currently being used by the Indian Army. Media reports also said the helicopters would be manufactured in India under 100 per cent transfer of technology.

Sources also said that the Indian Navy's plan to procure over 100 Naval Utility Helicopters is on track and is a separate process for which the Request for Proposal is in the last stage of finalization.

India has a fleet of Kamov Ka-28 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters and Ka-31 radar picket helicopters, but many of the former are in need of an upgrade.

The INS Vikramaditya carries 6 Ka-28s and Ka-31s. When the aircraft carrier was handed over to the Indian Navy in November 2013, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin first suggested that the two countries consider the possibility of setting up a joint venture to assemble Kamov helicopters in India.

Kamov Chief Designer Sergei Mikheyev said the company is ready to jointly supply modern seaborne helicopters for the Indian Navy on request.

“Upon request from the Indian Navy, we are ready to supply jointly with Russian Helicopters the necessary number of seaborne helicopters and offer the latest technology to the Indian side, including the Ka-52K helicopters,” Mikheyev said.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2015 18:24

http://www.a-haviation.com/en/images/mu ... 6T-002.jpg

interior of ka226 casevac module. its really small. its a nonstarter for anything other than utility, observation, FAC and basic csar...which is fine I guess.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 16 May 2015 19:02

@ singha

this is a promo video form HeliRussia 2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUFJLw5hBW8
see from 1:00 this shows internals of ka266T ambulance version

This too is from another HeliRussia 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUFJLw5hBW8
this shows different version of Ka226T

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2015 19:31

Re Ka 226 - Philip's link that speaks of a service ceiling of 7000 m is key. Also the lack of tail rotor has some advantages in narrow landing strips. The helo is more compact for that reason. Singha that Casevac module is bigger and more functional that Maruti Omni ambulance.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 May 2015 19:46

d_berwal wrote:Well Ka-226T if it happens does not sound like a bad deal at all.

With India requirement of LUH type to be around 600+ There is enough space for HAL LUH when it comes up.

With the requirement of 600+, we can accommodate four different types, but that is hardly a recommendation. Every single order that goes to foreign manufacturer is one less for an Indian helicopter.

But even if we were to proceed with the assumption that a second line is crucial, it still doesn't explain why the Ka-226 is being selected ahead of the Fennec & Bell 407 both of which have jumped through each of the MoD's hoops multiple times.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 May 2015 19:52

shiv wrote:Re Ka 226 - Philip's link that speaks of a service ceiling of 7000 m is key. Also the lack of tail rotor has some advantages in narrow landing strips. The helo is more compact for that reason. Singha that Casevac module is bigger and more functional that Maruti Omni ambulance.

The Kamov model has visibly different performance owing to its fundamentally different design. A combination of high empty mass, contra-rotating rotors and higher available power means that the tail-off in performance for this design is different from the Bell and Eurocopter models.

The performance of the Kamov design generally tails-off faster than its competitors at higher altitudes. This is attributed to the high rotor interference effects that increase the amount of power required to maintain a given payload.

There is a substantial difference in hover performance between the Kamov design and others beyond 15,000 feet altitude and this difference only increases. When similar crew mass, fuel mass and rate-of-climb effects are added, the Kamov design’s payload capacity is negligible beyond 16,000 feet, which is much lower than that of the Fennec (19,000 feet) and the Bell-407 (22,000 feet).

At sea-level, the Kamov design also has the lowest rate of climb power available and is unable to exceed 2.5 m/sec compared with much higher numbers for the Bell, Eurocopter and HAL designs. It also loses all available power for rate of climb at 9,000 feet altitude.

Beta Coefficient (Vivek Ahuja)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2015 20:46

Viv S wrote: Beta Coefficient (Vivek Ahuja)

From the same source

Ground effect multipliers for the various designs are also different and offer differing improvements for the four designs. Once again, the Bell and Fennec designs are near identical in their IGE performance. The LUH, with a slightly higher main-rotor blade radius performs better. The Kamov design gains the best effects in IGE conditions on account of its twin-rotor system with large blades. It is the result of this improved performance in IGE that allows the Kamov design to match the Bell and Fennec designs in IGE hover up to an altitude of 17,000 ft. Beyond 20,000 ft, the IGE performance gains for the Kamov design are lost and leads to a general performance below that of the other competitors. All four helicopter designs perform significantly better in the ground effect conditions, with the HAL design performing best and the Bell-407 staying close to it. The Ka-226T and Fennec perform somewhat similar in ground effect and are behind the HAL and Bell designs. For example, at 20,000 feet altitude, the Fennec can lift ~340 kg more in ground effect than out of ground effect. Similarly, the Bell-407 can lift ~410 kg in ground effect than out of ground effect and the HAL design can lift almost 550 kg more in ground effect!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 May 2015 21:35

shiv wrote:
Viv S wrote: Beta Coefficient (Vivek Ahuja)
From the same source

It says the Kamov matches the Bell & Eurocopter upto 17,000ft (and this is just for IGE hover/climb). Above that altitude its outperformed by both designs. See the accompanying charts.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 May 2015 22:36

The Ka-226 "purchase" has a bigger political component and there is a need to bite that bullet on other aspects.

I also feel that the FGFA is going nowhere and this (like the Rafale deal) is a potential way out.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 16 May 2015 22:40

Ka-226 purchase is worth peanuts compared to the potential FGFA order. I doubt this is a way out.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 May 2015 01:29

Billions in Oil and Gas.

Def, IMHO, is finito or close to it.

(Are we witnessing the death of the MTA?)

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 May 2015 04:09

For a country of India's size 200 Kamovs are peanuts. This is a good investment of $1B order to kick start Make In India. Hope this will kickoff private aeronautical industry.

This augments Dhruv production and together they can form the backbone of India's light helicopter industry and can revolutionize the ambulance & remote medical help services.

Kamov can be used for disaster recovery and other logistics needs below 1Ton category.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 May 2015 13:04

If you look at the proliferation of light/utility helos worldwide esp. in advanced nations,even 1000 helos of this size will be a tiny figure given India's size. The market for mil/civil is massive. It is an area that has tremendous scope. With the proliferation of skyscrapers in the metros,heli-services,ambulances,fire fighting,etc. will be one major market apart from the usual transport /tourism ops. The para-mil market too is huge,for police,BSF,etc. Thes smaller LUHs will be cheaper to operate and spur passr. growth esp. to hilly ,mountainous regions where airfields, roads and regular infrastructure facilities are poor.

The NH-90 sized ASW helos are better suited for use on larger warships like DDGs,FFgs,etc. A navalised version of the KA-226 could operate from smaller corvette sized platforms and open flight decks,where earlier All-3/Chetaks operated from. The Chetaks had limited ASW capability,but the KA-226 has a separate cabin.pod,which could house 2 ASW operators with their consoles and carry a dunking sonar,LWTs,DCs,even SR ASMs.This would give aquantum capability diff. to smaller vessels that were not expected to possess such a capability,esp. our planned 16 shallow water ASW corvettes of approx. 750-1000t if they have an open fight deck like the Khukris.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 May 2015 13:11

where will you hang the dunking sonar , ASMs and LWTs from? it will likely go way beyond the carrying capacity of the cabin. and the spider frame wont hold it.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 May 2015 13:50

d_berwal sir, if we use 2 engines and 2 crew then why not use the Dhruv, which is better in every aspect. If really need the light one then lets wait for the LUH of HAL. Even Ka-226 is not a mature helicopter like the super duper new Russian tank. It is just coming out of design and people are going gaga about it. Lets it go through summer, winter, rain, desert trials then IA should sing praise for it. Even if one item fails, no orders please

NRao wrote:The Ka-226 "purchase" has a bigger political component and there is a need to bite that bullet on other aspects.

I also feel that the FGFA is going nowhere and this (like the Rafale deal) is a potential way out.

We don't need the continue this appeasement state policy. I feel sic, why we have to keep happy every country in this planet and beyond. It is bloody not our responsibility, who gives a fu*k what we feel. It is national interests which are paramount. Why we should spend couple of billion, just to make someone else happy and project their ego. In doing so, we are hurting our national interests as well as nation pride.

I don't like the Rafale deal, it was initially sold as 4 billion and we just came to know it is 8 billion deal. I don't know how NaMo and MoD will sell it to country. They will most probably play with offset cost. But it remains a fact that it is a 8 billion deal. I wish they put 1 billion in LCA and LCA-mk2 and see the effects.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 May 2015 14:43

The payload is 1000kg.LWTs are only 250KG,ASMs of ATGM size for knocking out small PCs /missile craft.,would weigh less. Not all at a time! Incidentally,there is a naval variant of the Fennec which lost out. If it could operate from a ship of just 650t,then the shorter Sergei could easily operate from the planned ASW shallow water corvettes which will be 750t+ if they have an open deck.

Here are some quotes from a Ru forum,the Sergei will operate from Border Guard ships:

I have seen a line drawing of a corvette class with a standard displacement of 1,000 tons and a full load displacement of 1,350 tons. It has a 100mm gun on the front main deck and a stealthy shaped with Kashtans on top of the bridge and the centre rear of the boat (2 Kashtans in total) one level up from the rear Kashtan is a large open heli deck and it has a retractible hangar that extends out to enclose the helo and rolls back to give a more open deck area when not in use. The Specs describe a Ka-28 helo but with folding main rotors and even a folding tail you could probably get two Ka-266s in there.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... elicopter/

Weapon systems

The helicopter is fitted with a wide range of weapon systems to suit the mission and operational requirements of the country's forces.

"The AS 555 is also in service with the French Army."

The AS 555SN is used for shipborne missions operating from ships above 650t. The helicopter is equipped for anti-submarine warfare and over the horizon (OTH) targeting. The helicopter can carry a lightweight homing torpedo. A chin-mounted Telephonics RDR-1500B X-band, 360° digital colour radar is used for search and surveillance.
The radar also provides weather avoidance, beacon transponder location, and waypoint navigation display. An unarmed naval variant, the AS555MN can also be fitted with the RDR-1500B.

The French Army AS 555AN is armed with a Giat 20mm gun type M621, T-100 sights and Mistral missiles. The helicopter can also be fitted with pylon-mounted rockets.

The AS 555UN French Army helicopter is unarmed for advanced instrument flight rule training with the aviation leger de l'armee de terre and it is also operated as a utility transporter.

Other weapon fits include missiles, rockets and guns including the Forges de Zeebruge rocket launcher carrying seven 2.75in rockets and the Thales Brandt 68mm launcher carrying 12 rockets. The helicopter can be armed with the Giat 20mm gun type M621 and the FN Herstal twin 7.62mm and 12.7mm machine gun pod.

The AS 555 Fennec is also armed with BGM-71 TOW, 7×2.5in Forges de Zeebrugge or 12×68mm Thales Brandt rockets, 20mm Giat M621 cannon, 20mm cannon, and Fabrique Nationale de Herstal twin 7.62mm or 12.7mm machine gun pods.

PS:Naval Dhruv with folding rotors being developed and will definitely be ordered once trials are over. The Sergei naval option proposed is only for the smaller ASW corvettes,not larger NOPVs,light frigates,etc.,which could operate med-sized multi-role helos ,naval Dhruvs.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 May 2015 15:01

If I am not wrong the competition was done twice over and cancelled the first time it was a case of some Europe not sending the military version of chopper post the competion some one complained and they cancel it and second time it was some other reason I dont recollect.

So the light chopper competition , IAF should have enough data on all the 3 types competing in Indian Condition by that I mean the two Europeans and 1 Russian type , I think US did not participate in it.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 17 May 2015 15:05

The RFI for 100 nos of NLUH tender has a small weather radar fitted in nose with secondary surface target detecting capability and limited maritime attack capability with no dunking sonar, no dedicated son buoy launcher but capability to carry single 200-250kg class LWT/ depth charges. Sonobuoys can be thrown overboard by hand.

It is basically to be used in SAR and communications role.

Ka 226 can fit the role if maritime version is developed for ideally the Helo should be in 3-3.5T class.

Naval Panther is an overkill as it MTOW is 4.3T and costly, as Dhruv can fulfill the role.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 May 2015 15:08

Tx A for that detail reg the NLUH. 100 helos is a large number. I wonder how many will be shore based and the rest aboard ships.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 May 2015 16:49

RKumar wrote:d_berwal sir, if we use 2 engines and 2 crew then why not use the Dhruv, which is better in every aspect. If really need the light one then lets wait for the LUH of HAL. Even Ka-226 is not a mature helicopter like the super duper new Russian tank. It is just coming out of design and people are going gaga about it. Lets it go through summer, winter, rain, desert trials then IA should sing praise for it. Even if one item fails, no orders please

NRao wrote:The Ka-226 "purchase" has a bigger political component and there is a need to bite that bullet on other aspects.

I also feel that the FGFA is going nowhere and this (like the Rafale deal) is a potential way out.
We don't need the continue this appeasement state policy. I feel sic, why we have to keep happy every country in this planet and beyond. It is bloody not our responsibility, who gives a fu*k what we feel. It is national interests which are paramount. Why we should spend couple of billion, just to make someone else happy and project their ego. In doing so, we are hurting our national interests as well as nation pride.

I don't like the Rafale deal, it was initially sold as 4 billion and we just came to know it is 8 billion deal. I don't know how NaMo and MoD will sell it to country. They will most probably play with offset cost. But it remains a fact that it is a 8 billion deal. I wish they put 1 billion in LCA and LCA-mk2 and see the effects.

Rkumar ji, Light; Medium and Heavy are classification of types based on mass or / and wake turbulence. Light Helicopters are better suited for dust / snow, small area operations, narrow valleys for smaller turn radius. Smaller 'light' helicopters will carry lesser load outs than ALH but ALH is 'heavier' than the light roles for which these light helos are being sought and hence not optimum.

Pls, this not an endorsement or takedown for the Ka 226.

I am sure we all have seen Cheetahs and Chetaks operate. Not just for high altitude but elsewhere too. Which Light helicopter will be specifically used in Glacier or extreme high altitudes as a replacement of Cheetah is not known as of now. From whatever analysis I have read on Ka 226 helicopter it certainly does not make the cut for helipads like Amar, Sonam, Jwala, Bahadur or even the Bhim bowl or Benazir.

Helipads on the glacier are a tight fit even for the Cheetah. The IA jawan who is there should not be expected to make bigger helipads. Plus the whole helipad structure is temporary. So ALH, may just be too big for those helipads.

IMO, the KA 226 would be better suited for rest of the hills which are not as 'motherless' in altitude as those on the glacier, be it Kashmir, Himachal, Uttarakhand, Arunachal or the rest of NE. Some places in Sikkim and Uttarakhand may also come under the 'motherless heights' categorisation.

Most probably, Ka-226 replaces the Chetak and LUH or ? replaces the Cheetah.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 May 2015 17:48

We don't need the continue this appeasement state policy.

Too bad.

It exists everywhere. #Unfortunate.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 17 May 2015 18:27

RKumar wrote:d_berwal sir, if we use 2 engines and 2 crew then why not use the Dhruv, which is better in every aspect. If really need the light one then lets wait for the LUH of HAL. Even Ka-226 is not a mature helicopter like the super duper new Russian tank. It is just coming out of design and people are going gaga about it. Lets it go through summer, winter, rain, desert trials then IA should sing praise for it. Even if one item fails, no orders please

I believe the question and the desire to have DHRUV in place of LUH/LOH has already been discussed in this forum since the 1st RFP for "Reconnaissance & Surveillance Helicopter" came out in 2003.

Ka-226T has been tested in Indian conditions and in fact:
- AS 550 C3 Fennec and Kamov Ka-226T Sergei Test were completed in Indian conditions by December 2011. (the test did cover summer, winter, rain, desert, High-Altitude & if we believe chaiwalla and juicewalls Sergei impressed lots of ppl in just HA performance)

I do understand you emotions but what should the IA/IAF do till HAL LUH/LOH is made available ?

IA/IAF have been waiting for last 12years for the replacement or their fleet of helicopters. (due to non replacement, maintenance of current fleet is a nightmare and prone to accidents and failures leading to loss of life)

No one is saying HAL LOH/LUH is not required. Did any one say that?
There exists an ample space for for filling up the void of 600+ requirement of this type of helicopter in just Indian Armed forces.

The current plans for HAL LOH/LUH is production start for 2018 @ max 50 per year.
- to fulfill the need for 600 numbers it will take till 2030.
- Should IA/IAF disband its current LOH/LUH fleet till that time?

We dont have to make every procurement an Arjun vs T saga like in armour thread. We do have to realize that in last 60 odd years of independence our manufacturing base has not developed to an extent that our Armed forces requirements can be met by local manufacturers. I this particular case 3 RFP and 2 test cycles over 12 year period has not resulted in even 1 helicopter.

RKumar sir why do you think Ka-226T is not a mature helicopter?

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 May 2015 19:31

Russia and India may produce 400 Ka-226T helicopters

The Ka-226T ‘Kamov’ helicopters could soon be manufactured in India through a joint-venture enterprise owned by Rosoboronexport, Russian Helicopters, and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), RIR learned from an Indian military source, who wished to remain anonymous.

“We are talking here about the production of at least 400 helicopters over the next 10 years, including some for export to third countries,” he said.

Why HAL? Shouldn't MOD aim to facilitate creation of helicopter OEM in private sector similar to what they are trying to achieve with C-295W and TASL.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 May 2015 19:44

d_berwal wrote:I do understand you emotions but what should the IA/IAF do till HAL LUH/LOH is made available ?

1. Buy more Dhruvs as a stop-gap solution
2. Lease a batch of Ka-226/Fennec/407s for high altitude ops.
3. Buy a limited number of the above type off-the-shelf if leasing options aren't available.

The current plans for HAL LOH/LUH is production start for 2018 @ max 50 per year.
- to fulfill the need for 600 numbers it will take till 2030.
- Should IA/IAF disband its current LOH/LUH fleet till that time?

The Ka-226 production won't start before 2018 either. And where does it say that LUH production will be capped at 50 per year?

We dont have to make every procurement an Arjun vs T saga like in armour thread. We do have to realize that in last 60 odd years of independence our manufacturing base has not developed to an extent that our Armed forces requirements can be met by local manufacturers. I this particular case 3 RFP and 2 test cycles over 12 year period has not resulted in even 1 helicopter.

3 RFPs and 2 test cycles have nothing to do with 12 year period have nothing to with our manufacturing base and everything to do with a dysfunctional MoD. The state of our manufacturing base on the other hand can be seen in the Dhruv, now on its fourth iteration being delivered at a healthy 36 units per year with an order book of 300+.

Thankfully there was no Russian alternative available in the same weight class or the same argument would have been made that a requirement of 300+ is enough to 'accommodate' the Dhruv while we focus on locally assembling an imported aircraft.

RKumar sir why do you think Ka-226T is not a mature helicopter?

Compare its build size with the EC Fennec or Bell 407. The latter are mature designs, the former is not.