Indian Military Helicopters

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 04 May 2016 23:03

The Rotor blades for Cheetah are not available from OEM.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 04 May 2016 23:04

I guess this is (part) of the answer.

rohitvats wrote:For starters, HAL CANNOT manufacture more Cheetah because OEM which manufactured the main rotor blades has shut shop and own effort to replicate them has not been successful. This is especially with respect to Cheetah for high altitude operations.

Was the effort to replicate them carried out seriously - or HAL just looked around and said, ho hum since TOT/LUH were both around for them?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 May 2016 23:20

Karan M wrote:Deejay why did re-engineing the Cheetah with ALH engine not work out? Did it not work?

Karan, I wasn't part of the Cheetah fleet so I will need to find out the inside news.

The rotor blades issue with HAL could be one of the reasons. Other factors could also have played a part.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 May 2016 23:49

Do you have any experience on the Dhruvs? Forgetting the LUH debate for a bit, is there any operational feedback (your own or passed on by others) that you share with the forum? Especially with regard to serviceability which has been a major source of concern.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 May 2016 01:47

deejay wrote:
Karan M wrote:Deejay why did re-engineing the Cheetah with ALH engine not work out? Did it not work?
Karan, I wasn't part of the Cheetah fleet so I will need to find out the inside news. The rotor blades issue with HAL could be one of the reasons. Other factors could also have played a part.

The reason I was told it didn't work was lack of redesigning the existing Cheetah transmission to leverage the output of the new engine.

Same for the Chetan that didn't move beyond prototype.

I searched, and found corroboration here http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02/ ... m-hal.html

The Indian Army has concluded a $76-million deal with HAL for 20 Cheetal helicopters and associated equipment to be supplied over four years. This is the first contract for supply of Cheetal helicopters to the Indian Army. HAL is in the process of supplying an earlier order of 10 Cheetal copters to the IAF.

The Army appears to have overcome doubts about the platform. In 2006, I visited Leh where Army aviation pilots had told me the Cheetal platform didn't appeal to them since HAL had replaced the copter's engine, but not the transmission.

The Cheetal is a re-engined variant (developed as an HAL-funded programme) of the proven Alouette II/Cheetah helicopter that HAL has license-built for over four decades. The Cheetal is powered by a Turbomeca TM 333-2M2 free turbine turboshaft engine which, according to HAL, is more fuel efficient and provides higher payload capability of 90-kg at an altitude of 6-km. "The Cheetal helicopter can operate up to 7-km altitude and has a range of 640-km with an endurance of 3.5 hours. The Cheetal is fitted with a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system for engine control and an Electronic Backup Control Box (EBCB) system which automatically takes over engine control in the event of FADEC failure," says HAL in a statement.

The probable reason 30 helicopters were still ordered was not because of improved performance but because of engine reliability.

Prima Facie, this seems to be a design dependency on the engine manufacturer, as the issue seems to have affected the HAL LUH too http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2010/07/h ... light.html

HAL had paid Turbomeca to develop the Shakti engine for the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH); and the Shakti also powers the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) that HAL is developing. Because the Shakti is custom-designed for the high altitudes --- between 15,000 – 20,000 feet --- that characterise much of India’s border, and because HAL and Turbomeca will jointly manufacture the engine in India, the Shakti was selected to also power the LuH.

But the Dhruv and the LCH are twin-engine helicopters, while the lighter LuH will fly with a single Shakti engine. That requires Turbomeca to design a new transmission for the LuH. Additionally, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) will have to certify the Shakti for single-engine operation. To HAL’s dismay, Turbomeca has demanded Rs 190 crores for these jobs, more than half the LuH’s entire budget of Rs 376 crores.

In formulating the LuH development budget, HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply, to benefit from additional orders of hundreds of Shakti engines over the service life of the LuH.

An outraged HAL board, having decided against paying so much to Turbomeca, has approached other engine-makers --- including General Electric, Honeywell, Rolls-Royce, and Pratt & Whitney --- for an engine for the LuH.

That probably made the French comply

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2016 04:56

It is unlikely that rotor blades alone are the source of the Cheetah's obsolescence. Rotor blades are vital enough for someone (in Taiwan for example, or E Europe) to duplicate them for enough money. What has probably gone forever are things like leather and rubber rings and seals - no one makes them now. Also housing and covers for equipment are probably stamped or cast metal parts while everyone has moved on to composites or plastics. There must be fuel gauges and other analog indicators that no one makes any more. Heck even lowly springer air rifles in India have moved to composite stocks instead of wood, synthetic washers instead of leather and synthetic O-rings instead of rubber or leather, silicone oil and Moly grease instead of mineral oils.

That aside modern safety equipment - even if mounted on cheetah will have power requirements of their own and it is hardly likely that the power supply source of the 1950s Cheetah will meet the needs of a modern helicopter.

I am willing to bet that the Air Force's BRDs are busy churning out some of these outdated parts to keep helos flying because they will not be available with HAL or OEM. I had earlier posted a 2 minute video of small parts such as these being made for "import substitution" for ageing Mi-8 helicopters and Chetak and MiG 27s by the IAFs Base Repair Depots. Here it is again if anyone is interested - hardly an exciting video but just illustrative of what repair workshops in Army and AF have to do - i.e duplicate outdated parts using outdated material as everything is delayed and people have their priorities wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKM56xkLl8g (1 minute 50 sec video)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2016 06:52

Here is more information on why and how obsolescence occurs. I thought it might be useful to look at this because of the comments I am seeing on this thread that seem to allege that obsolescence is due to laziness or incompetence or that it does not occur and machines can produced indefinitely

Obsolescence mitigation is a speciality in itself - but India has taken the Cheetah too far. Note how easily we replaced the HPT 32 and i am astounded at the wild thrashing about, loud wailing and stiff opposition to replacing a critical cog in our defence - the light lift helicopter

https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle ... sequence=2 (read it all if you're interested)

Manufacturing methods and standards change over time. As plants upgrade their facilities to stay
relevant with advancements in technology, it may be difficult for them to maintain the facilities for
the production of legacy components. It is for this reason that "lifetime buys" of certain
components are done. There are a couple problems with buying a large supply of a particular
component. As Young indicated, if there is a hidden defect in the component that is not discovered
until after production, the entire batch of components will have this defect. (Young, 2001)
Secondly, a component may for another reason become obsolete or require engineering change
because of obsolescence in an adjacent component. As a result, an investment in the lifetime buy
may not be prudent. On the other hand, if one does not purchase a reasonable supply of a
component, the supplier may dictate the schedule for change and that change may be more
frequent and at high cost. Estimating the right quantity for a lifetime buy is a challenging problem
because it requires a probabilistic assessment of future failure rates, retirement schedules and
upgrading scenarios amongst other factors. Despite efforts to develop techniques for calculating the
appropriate levels of lifetime buys, external change can cause the part to become not only obsolete
from a manufacturing and maintenance point of view, but also from a functional perspective.
Avoiding obsolescence mitigation through lifetime buys can ultimately lead to a company housing
significant levels of obsolete inventory that may or may not be able to be used.

Changes in environment can occur in two ways for a given system. First, a system may be used in a
fundamentally different physical environment than was anticipated during development. While the
specifications may have requirements that cover the majority of environmental conditions, at times
there are certain phenomena that only really emerge under these new conditions. These changes
may cause a system to need modification in order to maintain performance and not become
functionally obsolete. An example of this is the use of U.S. Navy airplanes such as the F/A-18
Hornet by small countries (e.g. Finland) with more severe flight spectra leading to premature metal
fatigue induced cracks and failures.

Here is the website of a company that supplies replacement obsolete parts. Check their list of things - stuff that i did not even know existed
http://www.jet-tek.com/Aircraft_Hardware.php

Our vast on-site stock of military hardware includes:

Aircraft Fasteners
Aircraft Fittings
Aircraft Bolts
Aircraft Nuts
Aircraft Anchor Nuts
Aircraft Pins
Aircraft Switches
Aircraft Connectors
Aircraft Spacers

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 May 2016 07:04

Let me first chant the mantras that I find can increasingly be chanted on BRF without anyone seriously protesting. The mantras are "self-justifying" and pure of heart

Air Force are emotional greedy traitors
Army wives are dumb, no better than journos
India Today is an anti-national publication
I am a patriot and I have my heart in the right place
Are the Armed Forces holy cows that must not be criticized by well informed nationalists like me?
BRF is ahead of the curve

Having got the invocation prayer out of the way let me post an India Today link to what army wives of cheetah pilots have been saying
Army wives want Cheetah, Chetak helicopters phased out

A group of women, who are wives of Army officers who fly and service the Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, want phasing out of these archaic flying machines that have been involved in 191 crashes over the past two decades.

They plan to meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to submit their petition seeking replacement of these machines.

According to the Indian Army Wives' Agitation Group, the 191 crashes have claimed 294 lives. On an average, there are three to four Army Aviation accidents every year.

The last crash happened on October 1 when a Cheetah belonging to the Army Aviation crashed in Uttar Pradesh's Bareilly district, leading to the death of two pilots and an engineer.

The Army still has 120 of these machines. Some of these copters, that crashed in the high altitudes of Jammu and Kashmir's Siachen, have been untraceable along with the officers on board.

The group said the officers are in the age group of 29-34 years. A Major, Atul Garje, had become a father just days before his death, along with two others, in 2011 in Nashik.

The helicopters are now vying hard for the infamous title of "flying coffins"-once associated with the now phased out MIGs and the grounded Sukhois.

Meenal Bhosale, founder member of the group with 28 members, said, "Every time officers go on a sortie, the family is on tenterhooks. Every safe touchdown seems like a new life."

The group's online petition has received 19,000 signatures so far. A member, not willing to be identified, said, "The forces are helpless as procurement of new copters is done at the ministry level. It was the Bareilly crash which prompted us to come together and raise our voices, seeking phase out of these machines."

The ministry has been trying to procure new copters for the forces, including the Army Aviation, since 2007. Bhosale said, "Even Pakistan has better copters. It is frustrating to know that we have funds for better equipment but corruption is nixing their procurement."

In the forces, since the '60s, the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited built the Cheetah (original model SA 315B Lama) and Chetak (original model Alouette III) under licence from French state-owned firm Aerospatiale.

Their production was stopped in 1990 and several countries like Argentina, Denmark and Ireland replaced the Alouette III long ago.

Both Cheetah and Chetak have single engines unlike two in the modern models that make the latter more reliable in emergencies. Bhosale said, "Cheetah and Chetak are the rudimentary machines lacking autopilot, weather radar, duplicity of systems and on-board computer for engine control."

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 05 May 2016 10:48

These mantras are indeed sickening. Thank you Shiv for standing up against up against this. I protest as strongly as I can. If these mantras are chanted on BR then I am sickened. Absolutely sickened.

And the moderators and webmaster have to ask themselves 'How did we allow things to come to this'. If the moderators cannot do anything, or will not do anything, then I at least do not want to be part of BR anymore. And the silent majority on BR who have a conscience....please come out and be heard. Or else you will be just like the silent majority we see in India every day....

shyamoo · Post by **shyamoo** » 08 May 2016 06:59

Akshay Kapoor wrote:These mantras are indeed sickening. Thank you Shiv for standing up against up against this. I protest as strongly as I can. If these mantras are chanted on BR then I am sickened. Absolutely sickened.

And the moderators and webmaster have to ask themselves 'How did we allow things to come to this'. If the moderators cannot do anything, or will not do anything, then I at least do not want to be part of BR anymore. And the silent majority on BR who have a conscience....please come out and be heard. Or else you will be just like the silent majority we see in India every day....

Akshay Saar, guilty as charged.

If informed folks like doc sahib and Deejay Saar ( who I believe actually flies these copters ) cannot convince these guys, what chance do the rest of us have? In their own way, and I'm very generous here, they may want the best for the country. But this arguement needs to stop. I would urge you to simply ignore them. We have other stuff to discuss. No point in raising BP levels. You cannot wake up a person pretending to be asleep.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 08 May 2016 11:02

Sure, I cannot wake a person pretending to be asleep. But I can at least be true to myself and speak out against a grave injustice. This is the same logic we use to justify any injustice that happens or has happened for centuries.

Its better to be Vidur and protest than to be Bheeshma and do nothing. I have seen true patriots dying, one in my own arms. I will not and cannot shut up. And niether should you. Remember the song from Lagaan ? 'Mitwa...oh mitwa tujhe ko kya dar hai re? Ye Dharti, apni hai, apna ambar hai rai'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 May 2016 11:14

> LuH’s entire budget of Rs 376 crores

for $55 million even assuming it is development budget only, our resources continue to very thin. 190 cr (< $30mil) is a pittance to pay for OEM designed and certified transmission for a helicopter that will see high duty cycles in hot n high conditions and extreme altitude...failure is not an option in a 1 engine copter. 30 mil is lower than cost of a single bunder.

a BU head in sikorsky or boeing would probably have that spending approval.

calling in others will only mess up the whole thing, as turbomeca will go slow on any form of co-operation.

to delay a vital project for 30 mil is just not good.

the chetak and cheetah have more or less been unchanged since 1982ish when I got my IAF 50th anniversary book...thats 35 years ago.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 May 2016 11:28

The budget estimate is provided by HAL and these are vetted by MOD/MOD Finance before approval , These figures are not derived from thin air but Due diligence is done and if HAL feels it needs more they will simply ask and send revised estimates or ask for additional grants.

If HAL can build LUH for 190 cr then it will just show we can build similar project at lower cost , While Sikorsky or Boeing or Eurocopter might need 1=2 Billion USD for the same job it is their problem.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 May 2016 17:46

^^^

What's the overall budget and how many programs it needs to fund with that amount?

mody · Post by **mody** » 09 May 2016 10:32

Any news about TD-4 for LCH? LCH was supposed to get IOC or some reports of mentioned something like a deemed IOC by December 2015!!
Any news about the progress on IOC front for LCH?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 May 2016 11:19

Akshay Kapoor wrote:These mantras are indeed sickening. Thank you Shiv for standing up against up against this. I protest as strongly as I can. If these mantras are chanted on BR then I am sickened. Absolutely sickened.

Before we start engaging in strawman attacks, can you tell me who exactly is contesting the fact that the Cheetahs & Chetaks that have exhausted their service lives need to be retired?

The only debate that I have seen, is on the nature of the replacement program.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 May 2016 11:56

An outraged HAL board, having decided against paying so much to Turbomeca, has approached other engine-makers --- including General Electric, Honeywell, Rolls-Royce, and Pratt & Whitney --- for an engine for the LuH.

Tk goodness its not Russia baiting 'as pr usual"!

The French wares have been very expensive "as per usual".Scorpenes contract revised,as we did not vet it properkly reg supply opf some components.Price too was revised from NDA too UPA-1,PC objected on the huge cost overrun too. M-2Ks upgrades hiedouelsy expensive at around $50-60M apiece! MIG-29 upgrades at only $15M apiece,new MIG-29Ks price just $32M. Rafale deal,...we all know the hideous cost we will have to pay for just 36. Is there a discernible pattern in this? We know that DCNS paid off some Pakis for their Agosta 90-B subs.

One pint (hic!) though in favour of the French.R&D costs for engine dev will be worked out at their rates as they will have to pay french workers much higher wages. HAL cannot say that our LUH dev costs are X and equate the two. If so,then let HAL develop an engine,like the Kaveri....

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 09 May 2016 12:31

mody wrote:Any news about TD-4 for LCH? LCH was supposed to get IOC or some reports of mentioned something like a deemed IOC by December 2015!!
Any news about the progress on IOC front for LCH?

The first prototype helicopter had its inaugural flight on Mar 23, 2010. The second and third prototype had their first flight on June 28, 2011 and Nov 12, 2014. LCH TD4 completed its maiden flight on December 1, 2015.

Read here:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 390574.cms

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 May 2016 07:09

India to Conduct LCH Weapons Trials.

India will conduct weapons tests of its domestic-made Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) in July and August, the defense minister said.

"LCH certification firing trials with integration of mission sensors such as the electro-optical system, helmet pointing system and weapon systems — air-to-air missiles, turret gun and rockets — are planned during July and August 2016," Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told parliament Tuesday.

Built by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the LCH is a two-engine, 5.5-ton helicopter capable of carrying air-to-air missiles, 20mm guns, unguided rockets, cluster bombs, grenade launchers and anti-radiation missiles.

HAL successfully tested the LCH's 70mm rocket in March, checking for system integration, structural integrity, noise and vibration, system functionality and the safe separation of rockets, Parrikar said.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is buying 65 LCH at a cost of $1.4 billion, one HAL source said. The three defense forces have requested a total of 180.

Four technology demonstrators are undergoing flight testing, said Gopal Sutar, a HAL spokesman.

Designed for anti-tank and anti-infantry roles with a maximum speed of 275 kilometers per hour, the LCH is also capable of high-altitude warfare since its operational ceiling will be 16,000 to 18,000 feet.

It is equipped with missile warning systems, anti-missile countermeasures and cockpit displays that are capable of night attacks. It carries a domestically developed gyro-stabilized sighting system comprising a high-performance thermal imager and laser rangefinder, which can detect a tank target up to 4 kilometers.

The LCH is also capable of destroying unmanned aerial vehicles, slow-moving aircraft, tanks and armored and infantry combat vehicles.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 11 May 2016 10:03

So the LUHcan not fly like the russ-tom?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 May 2016 00:06

What the ATGM that the LCH will carry?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 May 2016 00:12

One of the Lord Verys' birdie whispers that Japan is interested in LCH. What gives??

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 14 May 2016 00:21

Why?? They already have apachi and apachan, I mean Ah-64J and AH-1 cobra built by Fuji.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 May 2016 00:21

Well.. we know they need more attack helicopters.

Japan to halt AH-64D Apache orders after 13th airframe

10 September, 2007 By: Seiji Hirokawa

Tokyo's planned final purchase of one Fuji Heavy Industries/Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopter in fiscal year 2008 will halt orders of the type for Japan's army after just 13 airframes way short of the 60 originally sought to replace the service's current Fuji Heavy Industries/Bell AH-1S fleet.

The decision to stop Apache orders has been taken due to the type's high unit cost, and as a result of Japan's annual procurement model, under which the nation would take around 20 more years to complete its planned purchase. Fuji, which will this year complete a new licence production facility for the AH-64D, will receive compensation from the Japanese defence ministry following the decision.

With only enough aircraft being acquired to equip one Apache squadron, the army will extend AH-1S operations until a new replacement plan is been determined through a future White Paper. Fuji delivered Japan's first AH-64D in March 2006, and the type participated in an army firepower demonstration in late August.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 May 2016 07:06

Hindi channels are still not infected with the sense of shame of being Indian that English channels suffer from..
Cross post

Rampy wrote:Our own Hari sir and LCH report
http://zeenews.india.com/news/videos/to ... 86251.html

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 19 May 2016 10:26

So LCH carries 300 20mm rounds for its turret gun...I had never found this piece of info before on public domain!

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 May 2016 10:32

shiv wrote:Hindi channels are still not infected with the sense of shame of being Indian that English channels suffer from..
Cross post
Rampy wrote:Our own Hari sir and LCH report
http://zeenews.india.com/news/videos/to ... 86251.html

@Rampy and @Shiv Ji. Thanks for posting the video. Loved the video and the commentary.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 19 May 2016 11:34

^Did anyone notice that the helicopter featured in the video is not TD1 with the black and yellow colors, but another one with different decals, but same color scheme (the cockpit glass is different). Is it TD3 repainted or something new entirely.

By the way, nice decals

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 May 2016 15:05

deejay wrote:
@Rampy and @Shiv Ji. Thanks for posting the video. Loved the video and the commentary.

Credit goes to Rampy for digging it up. I loved it too - makes a change from our indigenous penchant being the first in line to say how ours is worse and how the other guy is better.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 May 2016 19:21

Apaches are very expensive,I think $70M a pop! One can get two MIG-29Ks for just one Apache.

3 LCAs too

This may be why japan is interested in the LCH as part of a deal where we buy the expensive Japanese "flying boat".It will help offset costs for us. It would be a great coup for the nation if a super-sophisticated defence industry/nation that Japan is buys an Indian attack helo.

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 May 2016 20:00

they will take the LCH airframe put in mitsubishi engines and fancy electronic gear and unkle s hellfires and call it Tora

salaam · Post by **salaam** » 19 May 2016 20:21

^ wrt to zee LCH video

Its worth seeing, very balanced with minuscule hyperbole (if any).

Salient points:
- Turret gun is helmet controlled.
- Developed upon Rudra's weapons integration work.
- Platform is ready, working on varied weapon requirements integration.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 20 May 2016 00:05

Arun Menon wrote:^Did anyone notice that the helicopter featured in the video is not TD1 with the black and yellow colors, but another one with different decals, but same color scheme (the cockpit glass is different). Is it TD3 repainted or something new entirely.

By the way, nice decals

Yes and the serial no on the tail says ZF 4604 so this could be TD-4

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 20 May 2016 09:44

Excellent! The pride with which the reporter spoke was palpable. And details given in layman's terms make it all the more effective. I liked the summation in which he refers to the AW scam and makes the viewer feel positive about one of our own instead. Well done, Zee tv.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 May 2016 09:58

But hwy doej it not have window wipers? What if it is raining on the day of war?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 May 2016 22:49

Naysayers will say: We have reached mars but cannot provide wipers on the helicopter! Truth is that in these times of drought we cannot be seen making such excesses.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 20 May 2016 23:06

I think Shreeman sir meant it as a joke

. But seriously, how is visibility during rain - do hepters need wipers when flying? (have no idea how rain lashes above the ground, only know what it is like when driving on the ground)

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 May 2016 00:23

Like other helis, LCH will have wipers. I had shared a tender a couple of years back for the same.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 21 May 2016 10:35

Cockpit video of a Blackhawk helicopter with windshield wipers

member_29068 · Post by **member_29068** » 21 May 2016 15:15

This is my first post here in BRF and feeling great to post a reply here in midst of all the Shifus! Regarding the wiper of the glasses, not sure if it was a sarcastic question or otherwise. The glasses in the chopper as well as Jets are specially treated glasses, not only the water repellent coatings but special glass itself. I drove an Alfa Romeo car which had this special glasses as windshields. Something like the following video but of a far better quality..
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP7h31c ... WesleyHung[/youtube]