Indian Military Helicopters

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 17 May 2015 20:23

Viv S wrote: 1. Buy more Dhruvs as a stop-gap solution
2. Lease a batch of Ka-226/Fennec/407s for high altitude ops.
3. Buy a limited number of the above type off-the-shelf if leasing options aren't available.

100% agree lets lease the whole IA/IAF/IN

The whole drama of IA/IAF/IN weapons requirements is solved lease lease and lease...

The Ka-226 production won't start before 2018 either. And where does it say that LUH production will be capped at 50 per year?

do you have any document or HAL statement saying the planned production capacity is greater than 50 per year.

i would love the capacity to be 200 per year!!

3 RFPs and 2 test cycles have nothing to do with 12 year period have nothing to with our manufacturing base and everything to do with a dysfunctional MoD. The state of our manufacturing base on the other hand can be seen in the Dhruv, now on its fourth iteration being delivered at a healthy 36 units per year with an order book of 300+.

how many years Has ALH Dhruv been in production and still 36 and we all are hoping HAL will deliver LUH @ 100/200 per year from 1 year.

Compare its build size with the EC Fennec or Bell 407. The latter are mature designs, the former is not.

is the build size a definition of mature?

come on Viv S lets be mature IA/IAF is using an equipment beyond its life and paying with life.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2015 20:41

Ankar wrote:Russia and India may produce 400 Ka-226T helicopters

The Ka-226T ‘Kamov’ helicopters could soon be manufactured in India through a joint-venture enterprise owned by Rosoboronexport, Russian Helicopters, and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), RIR learned from an Indian military source, who wished to remain anonymous.

“We are talking here about the production of at least 400 helicopters over the next 10 years, including some for export to third countries,” he said.
Why HAL? Shouldn't MOD aim to facilitate creation of helicopter OEM in private sector similar to what they are trying to achieve with C-295W and TASL.

Yes only HAL seems a mistake. Put it as a partner or supplier.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 May 2015 20:46

d_berwal wrote:100% agree lets lease the whole IA/IAF/IN

The whole drama of IA/IAF/IN weapons requirements is solved lease lease and lease...

Do you understand what 'stopgap' actually means?

do you have any document or HAL statement saying the planned production capacity is greater than 50 per year.

i would love the capacity to be 200 per year!!

Don't be absurd. What happens when they hit 50 units per year? Will it run out of real estate or will its subcontractors refuse to service further expansion in production?

Fact is production at HAL was expect to be run alongside a foreign production line and scaled accordingly. However the latter has been delayed to the point where the HAL LUH can be used to service the entire production lot allowing both services to standardize on a single type. Its simply a question of investing the requisite production infrastructure.

how many years Has ALH Dhruv been in production and still 36 and we all are hoping HAL will deliver LUH @ 100/200 per year from 1 year.

How many years has the Ka-226 being in production and how many have been built? And we're hoping a private OEM with no experience whatsoever will deliver 50/100 per year from 1 year.

Compare its build size with the EC Fennec or Bell 407. The latter are mature designs, the former is not.
is the build size a definition of mature?

come on Viv S lets be mature IA/IAF is using an equipment beyond its life and paying with life.

In light of the IA/IAF paying with lives, lets compare the maturity of the Ka-226 to the Bell 407 and EC Fennec (& AS355).

Which type is more likely to have unidentified technical faults potentially threatening the lives of the crew and passengers? Which one will have the least mature supply chain affecting operational availability and threatening lives on ground in operational theatres?

Please analyse, in the interests of 'maturity'.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 May 2015 21:03

How it can be mature if certification is completed only in April, 2015? That itself can be disputed, and why a helicopter was allowed in the international competetion without national certification.

It make me smile to read your argument that IA is so satisified with after having summer, winter, rain, hot n high etc etc and could not find one issue. On top cleared it before Russian certiifcation mostly done in cold weather. I dont know what to say, you can spin the stories how you like.

Regarding older air frames, IA can still get newer birds if they want. We just gave 4 to afg.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 17 May 2015 21:16

RKumar wrote:How it can be mature if certification is completed only in April, 2015? That itself can be disputed, and why a helicopter was allowed in the international competetion without national certification.

link for your 2015 claims please

It make me smile to read your argument that IA is so satisified with after having summer, winter, rain, hot n high etc etc and could not find one issue. On top cleared it before Russian certiifcation mostly done in cold weather. I dont know what to say, you can spin the stories how you like.

but you are not smiling and spinning the stories come on RKumar we should be Happy IA/IAf will finally get a Helicopter replacement which is due for last 12+ years.

Regarding older air frames, IA can still get newer birds if they want. We just gave 4 to afg.

sure lets cancel all new equipment purchase IA/IAF can survive buy ?
- New Mig 21 to replace older Mig
- New Cheeta to replace older Cheeta
- New Vijayanta to replace older Vijayanta
- New Avro to Replace older Avro
- New Sten carbine to replace older Sten

Are you saying what is good for Afg is good for INDIA?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 17 May 2015 21:34

Viv S wrote: Do you understand what 'stopgap' actually means?

12 years is not enough stop gap measures in your dictionary..

Let the whole IA/IAF/IN be a stop gap why not?

There is no stop gap arrangement when it comes to security needs.

Don't be absurd. What happens when they hit 50 units per year? Will it run out of real estate or will its subcontractors refuse to service further expansion in production?

who is putting an absurd argument here ALH Dhruv and HAL had enough time by now to take the production to 50+ per year

Fact is production at HAL was expect to be run alongside a foreign production line and scaled accordingly. However the latter has been delayed to the point where the HAL LUH can be used to service the entire production lot allowing both services to standardize on a single type. Its simply a question of investing the requisite production infrastructure.

same story for entire production w.r.t to any new procurment .. LUH/ Drhuv/ ARJUN/ Naval Ships/ LCA/155mm Guns/ Ammo production etc " Its simply a question of investing the requisite production infrastructure"

How many years has the Ka-226 being in production and how many have been built? And we're hoping a private OEM with no experience whatsoever will deliver 50/100 per year from 1 year.

pvt sector has no experience in delivary of any kind of helicopter let it be Ka-226 to the Bell 407 and EC Fennec (& AS355)

Their is enough reason that any new buy of foreign LUH plus HAL LUH has enough space to fuilfill the large numbers required for operational requirement both can co exist.

same logic do you support TATA-AIRBUS deal?

In light of the IA/IAF paying with lives, lets compare the maturity of the Ka-226 to the Bell 407 and EC Fennec (& AS355).

Which type is more likely to have unidentified technical faults potentially threatening the lives of the crew and passengers? Which one will have the least mature supply chain affecting operational availability and threatening lives on ground in operational theatres?

Please analyse, in the interests of 'maturity'.

well the tests were conducted where they not in Indian condition?

as per your argument

LCA vs Grippen who will have more unidentified technical faults potentially threatening

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 May 2015 21:46

The poor IA/IAF have been bawling for LUH's for several years,with each year lost seeing more crashes of legacy helos and fatalities.The men directly responsible for these deaths are certainly AKA and MMS for their dereliction of duty. One should be thankful to the DM/PM for taking critical decisions in the sped with which they've been done.The LUH acquisition was twice shelved and both contenders met the min. requirements. HAL's LUH hasn't fully arrived ,will take a couple of years before it enters series production,but has a bright future as there are hundreds of light helos to be acquired both for mil/civil purposes.

Now that the deal is done and dusted,let's wish it well,as this is a TOT deal with the bird being made in India.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 17 May 2015 21:56

d_berwal wrote:12 years is not enough stop gap measures in your dictionary..

Let the whole IA/IAF/IN be a stop gap why not?

There is no stop gap arrangement when it comes to security needs.

What are you on about? We're talking about a stopgap for to accommodate a ramp up of production at HAL. And I notice you conveniently pretend as if 'buy off-the-shelf' & 'buy Dhruv' options have disappeared.

Don't be absurd. What happens when they hit 50 units per year? Will it run out of real estate or will its subcontractors refuse to service further expansion in production?
who is putting an absurd argument here ALH Dhruv and HAL had enough time by now to take the production to 50+ per year

Why the hell should it build Dhruvs at the rate of 50 per year (instead of 36/yr) in the absence of new orders to justify that increase in production?

same story for entire production w.r.t to any new procurment .. LUH/ Drhuv/ ARJUN/ Naval Ships/ LCA/155mm Guns/ Ammo production etc

Yes, production output is proportional to investment in infrastructure. The difference of course is that you're happy to see Indian funds into the Russian economy instead of being invested in larger numbers of a local product. Arjun story being repeated all over again.

pvt sector has no experience in delivary of any kind of helicopter let it be Ka-226 to the Bell 407 and EC Fennec (& AS355)

Their is enough reason that any new buy of foreign LUH plus HAL LUH has enough space to fuilfill the large numbers required for operational requirement both can co exist.

What is thing called 'enough space'? Why should the MoD be 'making space' for an Indian product that should by all rights dominate the order book. And even assuming it wants to hedge against delays in the LUH just what is the logic behind going with the least mature aircraft type available to the country (least capable too acc. to the previously posted analysis) without any competitive process?

well the tests were conducted where they not in Indian condition?

The tests were assess its performance vis a vis brochure claims. They were not a test of the safety/maturity of the design, or for that matter, the efficiency of the spares & support chain.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 17 May 2015 22:19

Viv S wrote:
What are you on about? We're talking about a stopgap for to accommodate a ramp up of production at HAL. And I notice you conveniently pretend as if 'buy off-the-shelf' & 'buy Dhruv' options have disappeared.

For sure some one is about stop gap of Indian security!

Dhruv vs LOH/LUH has been discussed for past 12+ here

well off the self? how many should be bought off-the self will lead to another 1000+pages on this forum... some one who has taken this decision must have though it through ... I have to believe that and not question them. Otherwise every decisoin of a govt has to be questioned.

My opinion, i am more ok with making in India than buy-off the self:
- will create jobs
- build some capability
- will put money in Indian economy
- will create know-how

Why the hell should it build Dhruvs at the rate of 50 per year (instead of 36/yr) in the absence of new orders to justify that increase in production?

Please tell us:

what year did GOI/IA/MOD put numbered orders for:
- ALH
-LCH

the answer in there in the number of years that has elapsed since the order was placed and the numbers delivered.

Yes, production output is proportional to investment in infrastructure. The difference of course is that you're happy to see Indian funds into the Russian economy instead of being invested in larger numbers of a local product. Arjun story being repeated all over again.

I am only happy that our people will get an equipment with which they can fight. (in case of situation when the equipment that is required they are not waiting for it to be delivered for past 12+ years)

rest all is your assumption.

pvt sector has no experience in delivary of any kind of helicopter let it be Ka-226 to the Bell 407 and EC Fennec (& AS355)

Their is enough reason that any new buy of foreign LUH plus HAL LUH has enough space to fuilfill the large numbers required for operational requirement both can co exist.

What is thing called 'enough space'? Why should the MoD be 'making space' for an Indian product that should by all rights dominate the order book. And even assuming it wants to hedge against delays in the LUH just what is the logic behind going with the least mature aircraft type available to the country without any competitive process, and buying it in the hundreds?

where is the product?

- When was the first flight done?
- 12 year + waiting period is not enough ?

In absence of that MoD has done a decent job after a long time.

The tests were assess its performance vis a vis brochure claims. They were not a test of the safety/maturity of the design, or for that matter, the efficiency of the spares & support chain.

can you prove what you are saying?

These are your perceptions.

My take is Make in India should cater to the efficiency of the spares & support chain. (Other wise every Make in India effort should be stopped)

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 17 May 2015 23:10

VivS,

For whatever the excuses, HAL has gone slow on its most successful product too. Lets avoid this ''no orders placed'' bogeyman...when

HAL has produced only 78 ALH helicopters when it was supposed to supply 138 helicopters by 2013-14.

Airframes ordered ~2007 for Dhruv are 159. BTW, these are only ALH Mk3's and does not include the LCH.

The IAF and Army have also placed a Rs 7,000-crore order for 159 Dhruv Mark III utility helicopters. These have been designed and built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which builds 36 Dhruvs each year. There is an estimated need for more than 350 Dhruvs for the Army, IAF, coast guard and paramilitary forces.

Link: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... last-year/

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 012_1.html

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 May 2015 02:41

d_berwal wrote:For sure some one is about stop gap of Indian security!

Dhruv vs LOH/LUH has been discussed for past 12+ here

If you're unclear on the concept of a stopgap acquisition don't resort to (rather transparent) bluster. HAL did not promise to deliver the LUH by 2003 so harping on about 12 years doesn't help make your case. Its 2015 now with an import deal signed. With LUH project close to fruition, this is not time to start carping about expediency.

well off the self? how many should be bought off-the self will lead to another 1000+pages on this forum... some one who has taken this decision must have though it through ... I have to believe that and not question them. Otherwise every decisoin of a govt has to be questioned.

LOL. Decision makers in the govt and forces are always right and above reproach. Clearly borne out by their track record. Lets shut down the BR forum lest we subject them to the indignity of outside criticism.

My opinion, i am more ok with making in India than buy-off the self:
- will create jobs
- build some capability
- will put money in Indian economy
- will create know-how

And requires orders running in triple digits to justify the economics of setting up a local assembly line, with the foreign OEM getting a comfortable revenue stream for a decade+ and more thereafter in long term support contracts.

This instead ordering a squadron or two off-the-shelf for Siachen and assigning the remainder of the order to HAL LUH. Or leasing the same to be later replaced by LUHs.

Why the hell should it build Dhruvs at the rate of 50 per year (instead of 36/yr) in the absence of new orders to justify that increase in production?
Please tell us:

what year did GOI/IA/MOD put numbered orders for:
- ALH
-LCH

the answer in there in the number of years that has elapsed since the order was placed and the numbers delivered.

Right. Any why should the 'ideal' delivery rate for the Dhruv be 50 per year? Why not 100 per year? Why not 200, seeing as more is always better? Do you even understand that the production rate is a reflection of the investment in infrastructure not just the willingness/ability to deliver?

I am only happy that our people will get an equipment with which they can fight. (in case of situation when the equipment that is required they are not waiting for it to be delivered for past 12+ years)

rest all is your assumption.

Oh for heaven's sake.

Its NOT the HAL LUH that is overdue by 12 years.

In absence of that MoD has done a decent job after a long time.

By buying the least capable aircraft in the running without any competitive bidding? Its Russian so I can see why can you'd think its done a decent job.

The tests were assess its performance vis a vis brochure claims. They were not a test of the safety/maturity of the design, or for that matter, the efficiency of the spares & support chain.
can you prove what you are saying?

LOL. Did the IAF test team fly each aircraft for couple of thousand hours? Did they carry out durability testing? Did they test the supply chain? (If so, how?) Do you honestly think flying a few sorties day, night, hot, cold tells you what problems you may face after 5000 hours of flight?

My take is Make in India should cater to the efficiency of the spares & support chain. (Other wise every Make in India effort should be stopped)

Unsurprisingly, for all your talk about the aircraft being an urgently needed lifesaver, you're conspicuously silent on why the barely-in-production Ka-226T should have been picked ahead of the 407 & Fennec with a mature spares & support chain, without even the pretence of a bidding process.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 18 May 2015 02:45

deejay wrote:Most probably, Ka-226 replaces the Chetak and LUH or ? replaces the Cheetah.

That makes sense.

It means the window is still open for HAL to develop and deliver the LUH as Cheetah replacement. The ball is in their court now.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 18 May 2015 02:58

vaibhav.n wrote:VivS,

For whatever the excuses, HAL has gone slow on its most successful product too. Lets avoid this ''no orders placed'' bogeyman...when

That's down to delays faced when HAL was first operationalizing the type without any experience of taking a clean sheet design to production. The current production rate on the hand, is exactly what it was planned to be (after including the supplementary Rudras). If yet more orders are placed, they'll revise the production rate upwards.

But I hope you see the irony of the blaming HAL production as an argument against standardizing on the LUH -

Why shouldn't we order only LUHs? Because we can't trust HAL to deliver enough of them on time. What will we order instead? Ka-226Ts. Who will produce them? HAL.

(Unless of course we give the order to the Sun Group with 'core competencies' in broadcasting & IPL.)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 May 2015 10:17

I guess HAL is better used to screwdriver tech,as it has been doing for decades.Barring the ALH,some production still seems to be "bespoke",custom made as with LCAs. The first lot of LUHs will come in kit form and desi production with desi material,etc.,later on.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 18 May 2015 13:00

Viv S wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote:VivS,

For whatever the excuses, HAL has gone slow on its most successful product too. Lets avoid this ''no orders placed'' bogeyman...when
That's down to delays faced when HAL was first operationalizing the type without any experience of taking a clean sheet design to production. The current production rate on the hand, is exactly what it was planned to be (after including the supplementary Rudras). If yet more orders are placed, they'll revise the production rate upwards.

But I hope you see the irony of the blaming HAL production as an argument against standardizing on the LUH -

Why shouldn't we order only LUHs? Because we can't trust HAL to deliver enough of them on time. What will we order instead? Ka-226Ts. Who will produce them? HAL.

(Unless of course we give the order to the Sun Group with 'core competencies' in broadcasting & IPL.)

HAL has been manufacturing Dhruv since 2002. It handed over the Mk1 helicopters in 2002 itself to the four services IIRC.

The 159 Mk3 contract was supposed to run till 2015 after which the Mk4 was to be manufactured. According to the parliamentary committee they had only managed to produce 78. What gives I wonder??

The government could have taken cognisance of the fact and ordered another platform to be manufactured privately. Why should another type be thrust onto the services unless for specific requirements eg naval ones....

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 18 May 2015 13:28

d_berwal wrote:
RKumar wrote:How it can be mature if certification is completed only in April, 2015? That itself can be disputed, and why a helicopter was allowed in the international competetion without national certification.

link for your 2015 claims please

here is the link
Certification of Ka-226T helicopter powered by French engines has been successfully completed in Russia

It make me smile to read your argument that IA is so satisified with after having summer, winter, rain, hot n high etc etc and could not find one issue. On top cleared it before Russian certiifcation mostly done in cold weather. I dont know what to say, you can spin the stories how you like.

but you are not smiling and spinning the stories come on RKumar we should be Happy IA/IAf will finally get a Helicopter replacement which is due for last 12+ years.

I am not against the services, otherwise I would not be posting here. I am against accepting half cooked foreign recipes, where our services have sympathy and understanding. Why same attitude is not shown towards local designed and produced systems.

Regarding older air frames, IA can still get newer birds if they want. We just gave 4 to afg.
sure lets cancel all new equipment purchase IA/IAF can survive buy ?
- New Mig 21 to replace older Mig
- New Cheeta to replace older Cheeta
- New Vijayanta to replace older Vijayanta
- New Avro to Replace older Avro
- New Sten carbine to replace older Sten

Are you saying what is good for Afg is good for INDIA?

If it is possible to replace a Cheeta with a Cheeta as older air frames are near their life and we dont have a better solution. Then yes. Why a items is not fit for India, if there is no better option available and it is good for Afg? But why to buy half matured system in desperation and then pay though the nose to fix teething issues. Seems like we have not learned with T-90 deal where sun and moon was promised but delivered a system which can only operate in cold env but was deployed in desert.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 18 May 2015 13:37

vaibhav.n wrote: HAL has been manufacturing Dhruv since 2002. It handed over the Mk1 helicopters in 2002 itself to the four services IIRC.

The 159 Mk3 contract was supposed to run till 2015 after which the Mk4 was to be manufactured. According to the parliamentary committee they had only managed to produce 78. What gives I wonder??

The government could have taken cognisance of the fact and ordered another platform to be manufactured privately. Why should another type be thrust onto the services unless for specific requirements eg naval ones....

Is it an issue with product or the production agency? Same agency is also producing Su-30 and behind the delivery schedule, does that mean Su-30 is a bad product? If we dont have enough spare parts inventory, does that mean Su-30 is a bad product (like Arjum-Mk1 is pointed out)?

How IA can expect that HAL can deliver better Ka-226 then Dharuv or Su-30? Problem is somewhere else and it is the GoI n MoD's responsibility to find the real issues and work to fix those. But saying, products are bad because we can't produce in required numbers is a bad idea. Issues could be low order numbers then only MoD can solve it. MoD got the power to counter question the services, how can you recommend to order 200 foreign designed Ka-226 but only 20 LCA Mk1 or 126 Arjun Mk-1 (where production line ideal since 4 years)?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 18 May 2015 14:19

@ RKumar

http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/product ... 75020.html
http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotor ... fied-easa/
EASA = European Aviation Safety Agency

Ka-226T powered by French Arrius 2G engines got EASA certification in 2011.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 18 May 2015 14:26

RKumar wrote:
vaibhav.n wrote: HAL has been manufacturing Dhruv since 2002. It handed over the Mk1 helicopters in 2002 itself to the four services IIRC.

The 159 Mk3 contract was supposed to run till 2015 after which the Mk4 was to be manufactured. According to the parliamentary committee they had only managed to produce 78. What gives I wonder??

The government could have taken cognisance of the fact and ordered another platform to be manufactured privately. Why should another type be thrust onto the services unless for specific requirements eg naval ones....
Is it an issue with product or the production agency? Same agency is also producing Su-30 and behind the delivery schedule, does that mean Su-30 is a bad product? If we dont have enough spare parts inventory, does that mean Su-30 is a bad product (like Arjum-Mk1 is pointed out)?

How IA can expect that HAL can deliver better Ka-226 then Dharuv or Su-30? Problem is somewhere else and it is the GoI n MoD's responsibility to find the real issues and work to fix those. But saying, products are bad because we can't produce in required numbers is a bad idea. Issues could be low order numbers then only MoD can solve it. MoD got the power to counter question the services, how can you recommend to order 200 foreign designed Ka-226 but only 20 LCA Mk1 or 126 Arjun Mk-1 (where production line ideal since 4 years)?

Where have I mentioned ALH as a bad product?

What is clear as day is HAL's ability to ramp up production even in the face of massive orders. MoD also should have the power to question HAL why they cnt produce enough airframes to the contract timelines they agreed to. Pls tell....

One of the reasons why they would want private manufacturers. Whomsoever they may be.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2015 14:32

I think the selection of Ka-226 was made upon the fact that IAF/MOD do have data from all the contenders from two competition that happened in past and both were cancelled post trials when parties complained against each other.

IAF would have real world data from all the participating contenders Russian , two Europeans , The third time it was suppose to take place involving 2 more players but this was turning out to be like artillery competition where after the end of every round of competition the MOD would cancel it and arrange for a new one based on some flimsy complain that leads to no where.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 18 May 2015 14:56

d_berwal wrote: http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/product ... 75020.html
http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotor ... fied-easa/
EASA = European Aviation Safety Agency

Ka-226T powered by French Arrius 2G engines got EASA certification in 2011.

1. It is getting more serious, based on the links provided by you ...

EASA gave a certification for the engines

Russian Helicopters has obtained European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) certification for the Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 on the Kamov Ka-226T

vs

Helicopter (complete solution) getting a certification

The type certificate for Ka-226T helicopter powered by French engines was issued by Aviation Registry of the Interstate Aviation Committee on March 30th 2015,

2. It is Russian designed product, should not services check the Russian certification first. And then only allow them to participate in the competition? And still my questions remain valid

Services are so satisfied with after having summer, winter, rain, hot n high etc etc and could not find one issue. On top cleared it before Russian certification mostly done in cold weather.

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 18 May 2015 21:30

@ RKumar

Ka-226 received certification as mentioned in page 7 by philip. Journey to T version has taken time, that's acceptable to some and not to some. (very subjective and many of our own efforts with wast potential suffer the same delay)

- Ka-226T Delay also coincides with our own delay in taking the decision on foreign LOH/LUH (dont spam me for this ppl)

on a serious note: (lets not make it tu tu me me, lets be serious) ( am not an expert but novice but ready to do my poorva paksha and learn)

What do you think should be the main characteristics of IA/IAF's Reconnaissance and Observation helicopter dubbed as LOH/LUH ? and Why?

you can list out main characteristics, and then we and discuss each one by one are you ok with this ? or suggest your way of taking this forward?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2015 09:09

HAL 'to licence-build Ka-226' for army, air force
IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

http://www.janes.com/article/51486/hal- ... orce[quote]

Key Points

Sources in Delhi have said HAL is likely to form a JV with Russian Helicopters to licence-build 200 Kamov Ka-226T multirole helicopters
The proposed JV would lead to the scrapping of an anticipated RSH tender, which is currently in the RfI stage

India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is likely to form a joint venture (JV) with Russian Helicopters to licence-build 200 Kamov Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' light multirole helicopters for the Indian military for an estimated USD700 million, official sources said.

They said HAL was in advanced talks with the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to establish the JV to manufacture the twin-engine Ka-226Ts in Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's home state of Goa.

India aims to employ the Ka-226T, a variant of which is in service only with the Russian Air Force, for armed reconnaissance, forward air control, directing artillery fire, inserting troops for special missions, and for casualty evacuation.

These talks followed a feasibility report that HAL presented to the MoD soon after Russian President Vladimir Putin offered the Ka-226T to India during his December 2014 visit to New Delhi.

The MoD approved the Ka-226T programme on 13 May as a replacement for the obsolete Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA-315B), which is being operated by the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) and the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Official sources said the direct import of a "limited number" of Ka-226Ts - possibly around 50 - was almost certain to meet the IAF's and AAC's immediate requirements once the deal was inked under an Inter Governmental Agreement. HAL anticipates an annual production rate of 30 to 40 Ka-226Ts, with indigenous content rising to 30% three to four years after manufacture begins.

Officials said another aspect that prompted the MoD's decision to opt for the Ka-226T was its Turbomecca Arrius 2G1 engine, which is manufactured by France's Safran, with whom HAL has a long-standing technical collaboration.

The two have jointly developed the Shakti derivatives of Turbomecca's TM333-2B engine. These power the locally developed Dhruv and the Light Combat Helicopter and Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) that are currently under development.

Industry sources said the involvement of Sun Group, a private sector company based on the outskirts of Delhi, in the Ka-226T project is also under consideration, as it has links with Russian Helicopters.

The Ka-226T, along with Eurocopter's AS550 Fennec platform, competed for the MoD's 2009 Reconnaissance and Surveillance Helicopter (RSH) tender for 197 platforms. This tender was scrapped - for the second time - in August 2014 following allegations of wrongdoing in the selection process.

Meanwhile, HAL sources said that despite the possible Ka-226T JV, it would abandon its LUH project, which has been under development since 2009. The 3.1-tonne, single-engine LUH is expected to make its maiden test flight in September in anticipation of a MoD contract for 187 helicopters.

However, the anticipated programme for an Indian company-led JV to locally build nearly 400 platforms under the RSH requirement is almost certain to be scrapped, officials said.[/quote]

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 May 2015 10:56

That above post clears up all the main points.

When you look at the cost,just between $2.5M-3.0M,approx 400 KA-226s will cost us only approx. $1B+.This is "small beer" when compared with the other acquisitions, Rafale,etc. and the shortly to be finalised Chinooks and Apaches. However,it does give us a good opportunity for desi production of a small affordable helo which could be manufactured in the hundreds benefiting both the mil and civil markets. If used extensively by the civil airline industry,it could make more parts of the mountainous and other remote regions of the country more accessible.The KA-226 could be the helo equiv of the Maruti. Even HAL's LUH has a great future once it enters series production.The GOI will certainly support it and buy as many as it can produce as it has the ALH. The IAF and IN requirements will also be in the hundreds.I think someone (Austin?) posted the IN's requirement which is over 100.

In a media report on the deal,it was mentioned that the MI-17V would also be produced in India.Is there any furthe light on this? This si something that should've been done much earlier,as we've ordered the helo in large number,the last order if I am right was 80+,with a VVIP variant planned too.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 19 May 2015 14:19

d_berwal wrote:@ RKumar

Ka-226 received certification as mentioned in page 7 by philip. Journey to T version has taken time, that's acceptable to some and not to some. (very subjective and many of our own efforts with wast potential suffer the same delay)

- Ka-226T Delay also coincides with our own delay in taking the decision on foreign LOH/LUH (dont spam me for this ppl)

on a serious note: (lets not make it tu tu me me, lets be serious) ( am not an expert but novice but ready to do my poorva paksha and learn)

What do you think should be the main characteristics of IA/IAF's Reconnaissance and Observation helicopter dubbed as LOH/LUH ? and Why?

you can list out main characteristics, and then we and discuss each one by one are you ok with this ? or suggest your way of taking this forward?

Berwal, I would like to have a more details discussion on many topics but time does not permit me to engage in long technical discussions. I am no technical expert but have very small know-how of this vast topic.

Nothing personal against anyone, I am sharing my PoV on some national interest topics and with aim to highlight the broken procedures and then wrong decisions taken by GoI & NaMo. Just try to understand, why we took some decisions which make no sense at all.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 May 2015 14:21

Philip wrote:That above post clears up all the main points.

Clears up nothing. Both, the Fennec and the 407 are in the $2.5-3.5 mil bracket. Rafale, Apache and Chinook et al are utterly irrelevant.

Philip wrote:However,it does give us a good opportunity for desi production of a small affordable helo which could be manufactured in the hundreds benefiting both the mil and civil markets. If used extensively by the civil airline industry,it could make more parts of the mountainous and other remote regions of the country more accessible.

1. We're already on our way to getting a small affordable helo which can be manufactured in the hundreds. Its called the HAL LUH.

2. The Ka-226 is to be locally assembled not locally manufactured ('indigenous content rising to 30% three to four years after manufacture begins').

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 May 2015 18:40

Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice!

The IA have been waiting for years for an LUH and have had to put up with crashes of obsolete Chetaks,etc.killing pilots and passengers. Have a heart. Would the criticism be the same if the helo chosen was the Fennec?

Fennec price,Bell wasn't in the picture at all:
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopt ... 555-SN/215

Eurocopter Fennec
Price - Current Price $ 4 – 5 Million Estimated *

Kamov Ka-226 Sergei
Price - Current Price $ 2.5 million - $ 2.9 million *

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 May 2015 18:49

Yes it would.

For a simple reason that any import that comes at the expense of domestic product is unacceptable.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 May 2015 19:25

Good.Please also examine what " import content '" many of our so-called desi products have? Also whether they arrived on time and at what cost? The IAF can't buy a paper plane,like the BTT,nor the IA wait for another 3 years before the LUH enters series production. There is a limit to the service and the GOI's patience .The DM has said so even about the LCA,leading to speculation that if the LCA fails to arrive in time,another firang option may be necessary.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 May 2015 19:42

Philip wrote:Yaas,we've been hearing about it like the IJT.At least the IJT has shown that it can fly ....and crash,thrice! The IA have been waiting for years for an LUH and have had to put up with crashes of obsolete Chetaks,etc.killing pilots and passengers. Have a heart. Would the criticism be the same if the helo chosen was the Fennec?

And you think the LUH is based off the IJT rather than the very mature in-production ALH Dhruv?

There's no justification for ordering 200 aircraft to hedge against delays in the LUH program. 50 off-the-shelf is more than sufficient. A lease would be even better.

Fennec price,Bell wasn't in the picture at all:
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopt ... 555-SN/215

Eurocopter Fennec
Price - Current Price $ 4 – 5 Million Estimated *

Kamov Ka-226 Sergei
Price - Current Price $ 2.5 million - $ 2.9 million *

The IA's RFP called for a single engined light helicopter. The relevant model is therefore the AS550 (not the AS555).

From the same website -

Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec
Price - Current Price $ 2.6 million *

Bell 407
Price - Current cost $ 2.6 million for sale in USA*

Kamov Ka-226 Sergei
Price - Current Price $ 2.5 million - $ 2.9 million *

No cost advantage to the Kamov. May even be more expensive.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 19 May 2015 20:12

Philip wrote:Good.Please also examine what " import content '" many of our so-called desi products have? Also whether they arrived on time and at what cost? The IAF can't buy a paper plane,like the BTT,nor the IA wait for another 3 years before the LUH enters series production. There is a limit to the service and the GOI's patience .The DM has said so even about the LCA,leading to speculation that if the LCA fails to arrive in time,another firang option may be necessary.

It does not matter. We start small and grow. Killing any or all domestic effort will ensure that even if we build a flying platform a 100 yrs from now, we will have very high import content.

I am sure you know this. But, the point of import lobby is precisely this. If Indian developed products are not stopped today, tomorrow India will be a world leader in technology and not only will they (slavish import lobby's master nations) be short of a major market but these evil Indic baniyas will snatch all of their markets.

See, these guys are scared and we are just taking our baby steps.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 May 2015 21:30

I am sure you know this.

No he does not and never will

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 May 2015 02:10

There is no value in going for KA-226. Considering the local content in assembling them in India would be just 30% after we have assembled 120 helicopters in 4 years!!!!
Upfront acquisition cost is the same for the Fennec, Bell and Kamov. Would love to see the operating costs if available with anyone. Only saving grace in this copter is that the engine isnt Russian.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 20 May 2015 02:17

@Viv S ^^^ any difference in the service ceiling heights?

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 May 2015 03:39

Philip wrote:Good.Please also examine what " import content '" many of our so-called desi products have? ...

But what's the "import content" of fully imported products?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 May 2015 05:07

Philip wrote:Good.Please also examine what " import content '" many of our so-called desi products have? Also whether they arrived on time and at what cost? The IAF can't buy a paper plane,like the BTT,nor the IA wait for another 3 years before the LUH enters series production. There is a limit to the service and the GOI's patience .The DM has said so even about the LCA,leading to speculation that if the LCA fails to arrive in time,another firang option may be necessary.

Any thing that has under 100% import content is better than anything thing with 100% import content.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 May 2015 06:21

The way I see it is that we are better off with a russian flying crap rather than better products from the euros or muricans. This way, by the time the LUH is ready, the IAF fill be so fcuking tired of it (from it being flying crap and also from the russian crookery) that it will be rather grateful at getting something better/indigenous.

Might turn out be a longterm masterstroke by the Parrikar

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 May 2015 06:33

So, a new category, pretend self goal.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 May 2015 07:40

Arun Menon wrote:The way I see it is that we are better off with a russian flying crap rather than better products from the euros or muricans. This way, by the time the LUH is ready, the IAF fill be so fcuking tired of it (from it being flying crap and also from the russian crookery) that it will be rather grateful at getting something better/indigenous.

Might turn out be a longterm masterstroke by the Parrikar

Nope, vested interests will always be there. Look at how more T-90s were ordered even after Arjun cleared all trials, and then had to go with two years of begging for comparative trials?

And then there will be supporters of ruski stuff who will then say IA has already built in expertise, invested in logistics for Ka-226, easier to maintain one product line etc and try to push for no LUHs or 24/36/50 LUHs. Will be repeat of T-90, mark my words

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 20 May 2015 08:24

^I have a feeling the IA and IAF will need the LUH for at least the Himalayas, given how the russian flying crap is not so stellar in that regard (funny, I thought that was the reason for the urgency in the first place, i.e. servicing mountainous deployments). So, in the end, they might be FORCED to buy the LUH, when the russian flying crap falls out of the skies like flies. Look forward to the hovering russian coffins in the future.